Maps - Please give us a decent one


#1

Please Blizzard, i dunno what happened to your map team but they all need to be fired. Please can we actually have some decent maps, most of them are pretty…how to put this nicely…crap.

Most of the original maps i have no problem with, but most of them since release are just shockingly bad. The only reason there’s no map selection is because noone would pick 75% of the maps to play on.

Even with the rework Horizon is a pile of cow poop, and Paris isn’t exactly better, and Havana? Really?


#2

Delete paris, thanks


#3

You need to realise the maps quality is dependend on the heroes you play, and thus the meta. Once the double barrier meta goes away, Paris will be fine, if the alternative is dive. Horizon is not great, but there are plenty of options, to attack depending on your choice of strategy, and again once you get rid of double barriers the high grounds wont be as good. Havana is the same, before the double shields widows got a lot of love, because it has a lot of open places. Second point escorts are always in the defences favour in terms of highground, and thus the gameplay varies and different metas will be strong at different parts of the maps. Lets take a look at a good map then. Kings row!, why is this good? the reason why is because there isn’t a lot of space to close before reaching barriers, it still got a choke and high ground towards the choke is in the attackers favour. The second part is ballanced, the flanks are in the favour of the attackers, and there are plenty of ways to work around barriers. While we are at the second point the spawn routes for the defenders allow for recontestation if decipline is kept, but also alow for chase down of late spawners. The same goes for the Hollywood map. Though slightly in the favour of the defenders on first point Hollywood because the highground layout and choke is turned 90 degrees away from the Attacker spawn.

Now Why is Horizon changed the way it is? Well because the first point had no killzone. Why is this bad? Because there is a lot of room and open spaces in front of the defenders, on Kings Row, this is not the case. Because of the large statue which can provide cover, this means that you can close distance by using it as cover, in the dive meta, there are highground to highground jump options, same goes for hollywood though it requires a lucio. In the Goats Meta you get close quater and confined spaces which is good for engagement and team mobilised strategies! The open spaces then allowed for snipers in dive, which works just fine. Before double shields, it was bunker comp, which was also double shields a lot of the time, which is the exact same issue as double shields. The Closing room. Paris is actually quite easy to take first point if you know how to deal with closing room, there is a reason symmetra is used in lower elos, which is because its super easy to teleport an entire team, without the enemy noticing it happen. This means that the closing room suddenly rest at the defending team on parris when they have to get on to the point etc. If you got an Ana you can apply setnades to disrupt moiras healing. You can also use a tank combination that can survive pushing past the shields and onto an antied enemy team. So why are they considered bad then, why are they so seemingly random when it comes to winners?

That lies in 2CP being a first point easy second point hard. Getting rid of the steamballing only really works if the enemy was capable of rushing correctly. It still didn’t fix spawn adv. Paris Second point is actually quite good, it has a few flaws though, such as defenders access to high ground and lowground is too favourable in transition, one thing paris does well is hiding the flank routes entries, which makes it harder to spot flanks. This is something first point does poorly, it has almost no flank routes. A fix to the first point would be to open up the bakery inside it so the flanks can get easier access to The bonne Affair without being exposed. now to make something really interesting adding a window with a platform to stand inside in the policestation above the high ground only room for 1 person so no shields, will flip the position in favour of the attackers, in almost any comp. Not by far, but enough for the defenders to have to considder different positions to set up defences. It certainly will ad variety in case a reaper is taken in use. There are lots of options. Now Hanamura is a very balanced first point actually, Because it has these same options. but the second point on Hanamura is an equally unbalanced point. The best way to make a 2 CP second point layout is to make a flank route accessible behind the defender spawns, a bit like in Hockey, where you can play behind the goal. Because the defending team might have a spawn advantage, but it locking down the spawn is easier if you do have the numbers when removing the advantages of line of sight from spawn as well as a safe passage to the point. However im afraid the long range tanks will always afford Trench Warfare, and in trench warfare the charging side is allways cannon fodder. Fix the maps you say? Well Reintroduce Dive, and you will find that Maps like Busan and Route 66 will be a straight up Nightmare, because virtually every point is a kill box, surrounded by high ground, that bastion can sit on while the off tank and flank dps dive with a zenyata orb and main ranged heal. The biggest problem will always be the span of skill in the player base, its impossible to balance a map right without breaking it somewhere else on the ladder.


#4

Delete Busan, Oasis and Horizon, I’m done of this crap.


#5

All 2cp maps are bad by default.


#6

Horizon is Okay, but it’s a real bunker heavy map, Havana I actually kind of like depending on the composition of the teams, My bone is with Paris. I personally think Paris needs a hard rework.

It’s really difficult to get past that first choke between the car and the two buildings since a lot of people like to bunker there, unless you have a flanking character like Sombra that can bypass that entire section. I feel like that section could be opened up more to where there’s slightly more wiggle room to work with, like maybe get rid of the car or shorten out the staircase or something. The second spawn point off point A is also really too far away from the second objective if you manage to capture it, and it’s hard to hold A after everyone’s off it because of how far away it is from spawn. I feel like they just need to make the map a tad bit smaller game play wise, but -shrug- it really depends.

Attacking is a nightmare,
Defending is a bore.

It’s a very pretty map, but it just needs to be reworked badly to work better.


#9

First choke on Paris is only hard to get past if you don’t know how, ill give you some pointers.

Ana has a set nade that breaks the bunker set up, mei can lift bastion if he is used off the payload, Bakery + sym tp is really good too, through Police Station is good also, and works well with the set nade. Fast picks and left side through bakery and la bonne afair is good as long as you dont let yourself get attacked from the right. Your team needs to time it right and coordinate, but the fact that everyone sets up the same spot, makes it really easy to predict, and coordinate. out of the last 10 matches I have had on Paris ive not lost a single one! However, do not confuse my success with it being a good map. I think its bad also. However, its really a matter of knowledge. The bakery tp is good because the tp is protected by the truck. The tricky part is to make people work as a team, and not all try to be the hero who takes on the bunker alone… which is a lower elo problem. Too many trying to be heroes beyond their skill.

If you play Ana on attack, i reccomend getting Darwins Ana Nade Tool for practice from the Workshop. 6 antied heroes is the same as 0 healers for 3-4 seconds. If they dont have baptist lamp, then its litterally just picking Rein Zarya Mei Reaper Ana Lucio, and pushing Police station with amp speed in set nade and get 6 free Picks while ana goes straight to point and heal team on the way there. 90% of the times this is a done and dusted play, I havent played above Diamond, so i can’t really say if it will work there too. But that is 1 strat to use.

Going straight to point fast will force the defenders to move. that is why syms tp and double barriers can work really well, if you get set up, you can even use a flank like sombra to distract the enemy and hack the mega, the trick is to coordinate, other option could be a pharah sym combo forcing the defenders to split from their bastion as phara attacks from the choke while the team has allready set up on point. they have to either leave bastion alone or try to move him to point, which is almost impossible with a pharah coming in late from the choke shooting them in the back. Problem really is that a lot of people think strategy is the comp. or the Comp is the meta, when really meta picks are picks for the strongest strategy, the strategy itself has as many variations as the plans you come up with. Comps are essentially a game of chess, if you only think of the picks and counter picks you wont ever get anywhere… and this is why solo Q is bad in lower elo’s because plans and strategy really dont exist down there. Its equivalent of playing football in the schoolyard, but where 1 goal is smaller than the other. sure you got a Goal Keeper, a striker, midfielder, and defenders, but it isnt a strategy or game plan, for that you need a coach and a captain too. Strategy in football is moving the ball and the team such that you create openings to shoot at goal from. A carry is basically when a small club gets a player like Ronaldo or Messi, then pass the ball to that player. Very similar to OW, the strategy is to work out a way to deal with that. As a team. Picking hitscan versus pharmacy isn’t a strategy, neither is pharmacy for that matter, but either can be used in a strategy. Point is, a strategy is a plan, that you execute expecting certain things to happen along the way, such that you as a team outwit and outplay the enemy. The bunker is a strategy because it is the same as being “White side” in chess, so the strategy is they will try x number of things to deal with the bunker, we defend it by maintaining position and let them come to us depleted of abilities, if they pick a barrier to protect themself, we will destroy it.
once the enemy starts to organize their attack use cover to save their abilities or work around the advantage it has, then the strategy loses value and thus players start to counter pick. Now why is sombra usually a bad strategy, well because it relies on 1 player to not fail, meanwhile a team is sitting ducks, and cant do anything. So while rushing police station might not be enough on its own, using Ana to anti the enemy greatly improves the tanks chances and these are 2 not 1, and thus its not all dependend on 1 flanks sucess. Whicha also includes timing. Sombra is only really effective if she communicates, tells not only who she is going to hack, and not just before the spawn doors open, but also just before she commits, she must also analyse the defence ability against sombra, and pick the right moment, once the moment is picked she also has to call out to the team attack in 3 2 1 go… just as any initiation. Ana also has to say anti bunker in 5,4,3,2,1, go. Because the the timing is important. you got only a few seconds window to follow up. Unlike Ultimates there are not map wide voicelines for initiation, but its okay the team has coms. Then Also make up your mind, what is the fight gonna be like, talk about who you will attack first, and what to do if the fight or when the fight turns away from the plan, here we have shot callers, who then calls the shot to either abort, or change target priority. literally 90% of low ranked players blame their team for being bad and holding them back, but in reality there is no team work, but 6 players doing somewhat harmonious things together, and at poor timing, and purely reactionairy. Point really is that any comp is good and can work, as long as the strategy and execution of said strategy is better than the enemy’s ability to device a counter strategy to yours, the longer you spend failing strategies, or just running in, the more you feed, and the less chances you have of turning the game in your favour. Of all the maps PARIS is the one that is so stale and predictable that its the easiest to make a strategy for.
However, saying everyone follow through my tp and rushing point is not… and I repeat not a way to manage a team, and if you fail the team will tilt and start accusing you of throwing. The strategy should always start out with high guys what do you think the enemy will do, and what do we do about it? Then the ideas come in, and you should try to build on the idea… so if sym says we can try tp to point, you ask ok, where are do you plan to set up the tp? if the answeris on the left behind the truck you say okay i can play rein on the count of 3 everyone goes left while i shield briefly, then the other dps should think of how to improve that strategy also.

“1 person doing something stupid is re****d! A team trying something stupid is a strategy!”

Managing your team is to make a check list:

Anticipate
Idea
Support the idea with what you can do
Decide who is gonna shot call
Plan target priority
Plan disenage if the push fails
Plan BINGO levels (the ammount of damage or players you can sustain a loss of before you lose the fight)
Don’t overrule the shot caller.
Plan how to coordinate your timing.

Go through these steps before the spawn doors open, and your team will be better off, and I BET you will win almost all matches on Paris if you do this.

People in the lower elo struggle to understand the game’s fundamental structure as a strategy heavy game. Rule of thumb any teambased game will require a great deal of strategy.

This reply got a lot longer than i wanted it to be. But hope someone will get value from it.


#10

It really is the worst map in the history of maps, including street maps, atlases, ancient maps of the world before earthquakes broke it up in to continents, all maps ever.


#11

I really like Hanamura for some reason.


#12

Hanamura is a good map.