Balance is a crap goal to aim for only in Blizzard’s incompetent heads and in yours shoved between their…
The one thing community has always, always, always asked for in PvP during the years was balance so people are not shoehorned into playing certain specs to be viable in arena.
Mediocrity and balance are too completely different things - google it if you don’t know.
As i said, noone wants the boring dragged out games or the 1 shot or stunlock fests. Everyone wants at least relatively good balance and that absolutely doesn’t mean boring or uneventful, unless you are a crappy designer.
Stop being ridiculously biased and pull your head out of Blizzard’s…
Bold words, but they ring hollow when the suggested measures to balance PvP - be it the classes or the Heart of Azeroth or any other PvP related aspect - is always to nerf things, disable them, or reduce their effectiveness in PvP.
That does result in balancing around mediocrity. And it makes PvP boring as hell.
I’m sure we’ll see the same thing happen this time around. The PTR will come up. The PvP community will see how powerful these Heart of Azeroth bonuses are, and then they’ll start campaigning for them to be nerfed, have reduced effectiveness in PvP, or be outright disabled or removed. And then PvP ends up being the the same boring crap as always, because God forbid anything new and exciting is introduced as it may upset the fragile (and non-existent) PvP balance! ![:face_vomiting:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/face_vomiting.png?v=6" ":face_vomiting:")
Nerfing everything to make it “balanced” is Blizzard’s approach, because they fail at design at first place and roll out broken things. Then they have a decision to make - redesign and bring everything up to par, which requires more resource, or just nerf the systems that are abusing the balance.
Guess what they choose…
It’s not the people asking for nerfs, people ask for balance, how it is achieved is a decision of the designers for obvious reasons and I certainly in this regard can understand them to an extent.
not trying to be offensive but you almost never play arena? How could you know?
essenzes are not the solution to this low-pace meta!!!
This game is already way to CD-dependend. dmg outside of big CDs is way to low. Its just about trading cds…with essences they give every class 2 extra cds which are just resulting in balancing problems believe me. I dont want to have absorb trinkets, absorb traits, and absorb essences. Thats just stupid.
BUFF SPAMMABLE DMG AND HEAL so you are able to outplay people without cds.
I’m mostly reacting to the OP’s words in this discussion:
That’s basically a request to disable these new Heart of Azeroth bonuses, because balancing around mediocrity is more important than having new and exciting additions to the gameplay.
We can always pretend that Blizzard are the evil boogeyman, but that’s a cop-out in my opinion. The community suggestions on the forum are always to make things more mediocre in the name of balance.
For what it’s worth I’ll protest a little bit against that trend.
Good luck with that without it going against the core design of certain classes/specs. The problem here is the core design of each spec’s toolkit and how barely anything in the talent system and PvP talents modify the base abilities instead of simply adding more on top.
Because I play Skirmishes and Random Battlegrounds, fall asleep spectating the AWC tournament games, read the PvP forums and watch the twitch streams, and keep up to date on the discussions like everyone else here?
The notion that you have to be a hardcore and dedicated 3v3 Rated Arena player in order to have an opinion about what makes PvP fun and not boring strikes me as a bit silly. Having done PvP on a consistent basis for the past 15 years, in one way or another, I think I know what I enjoy about PvP and what I don’t. And disabling and nerfing everything and making it mediocre is not it. It’s not rocket science. ![:yum:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/yum.png?v=6" ":yum:")
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yes the core of the problem is class design, like it was in legion.
Thats what makes “beasts” like destru locks being near unkillable, because if they aint… they aint viable due to lack of tools.
Thats what makes WW monks so good too.
because it is a silly argument.
You want as many players involved in the discussion , the problem is when said players make topics about removing healers from 2s (us forums), adding cd’s to CC or further remove categories of DR’s.
That yeah its a problem because they dont fully understand how that would affect the game.
There is a balance, blizzard just havent achieved it last 5 years.
There is room for comps who main focus is CC and burst, there is a room for comps who main focus is sustained damage and survivability.
There were 4 expansions that had that (tbc, wotlk, cata, mop) the devs just need to start looking back instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.
And while tbc and cata werent perfect, wotlk and mop were pretty near with wotlk (imo) being the best of the bunch with a wide amount of comp typologies avaible and with only “soft” counters, not “hard” counters like we see in the game right now.
To put in perspective, back in the wotlk /Mop tournament days people would play mains because it was better than play an alt they have for a week just because you can hard counter someone.
I don’t know. In my personal opinion – and I understand others may feel different about it – I don’t think balance is what PvP should aim to achieve.
Even if Blizzard made PvP balanced today, then that balance would be fragile and temporary. It would be thrown up in the air the moment patch 8.2 was released, and Blizzard would have to start balancing all over again. And even if they were to achieve balance again, then that balance would also be fragile and temporary, and it would only last until the next patch came out and the next set of changes and additions to the game were introduced.
I think it’s more important to figure out what kind of gameplay direction PvP should take.
Like, what is it that actually makes PvP enjoyable to play?
Is it long games where it gets more tense as dampening keeps increasing?
Is it explosive PvP where people get 2-shotted and the gameplay is best enjoyed with loud heavy metal music?
There’s a big gameplay difference between an expansion like WotLK where you had powerful set bonuses, crazy trinkets, and insane legendaries, compared to an expansion like Legion where you had stat templates, disabled legendaries, and dampening.
Everyone has a gameplay preference here. And rather than obsessing over which is more balanced, it’s more important to figure out which is more fun.
The balance will always change, but the fun can be consistent.
If you look at the PvE side of the game, then you have class imbalances with every raid tier and mythic+ season. There’s as much class imbalance to be found in PvE as in PvP. But in PvE the players have at least figured out what kind of gameplay they enjoy and what they want Blizzard to make. The raiding community knows exactly what a fun and enjoyable raid looks like. And if they get that, then the balance concerns don’t end up being destructive, because the gameplay is still fun.
The PvP community is still stuck in a discussion about what fun PvP gameplay actually is. It tends to get twisted into a discussion about balance, but that’s wrong. The first and foremost question about the Heart of Azeroth bonuses shouldn’t be whether they are going to be balanced or not – it should be whether they’re going to be fun or not.
If we think the gameplay is fun, then the balance concerns tend to not matter very much. When people think back to past PvP seasons they enjoyed, then those seasons may not have been the most balanced seasons, but that’s natural, because enjoyment doesn’t come from balance – it comes from fun gameplay.
That’s why you can still think Season 4, 8, or 11 were some of the best seasons, even if they were by no means the most balanced seasons. Because it’s not about balance, it’s about fun.
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that is what im saying… there was a time where both were viable.
The comp and the people playing it decided the playstyle.
yes, wich is where they are failing massivly.
Then you are reading the wrong feedback.
There is no “discussion” in wich type of gameplay because both should be viable.
Again, if you want to turtle untill last 2 mins then it should viable to do so
If you want to burst and win in 1 min games… then it should be viable.
The thing where they (blizzard) are failing its allowing both playstyles being viable and that is directly tied with class design.
Contrary to what RMP players say, stopping an almost unstopable CC chain is as skilled as executing said chain cc.
you failed every season that is regarded as best per expansion.
Tbc was s3, wotlk was s7, cata was 12 and then mop was like 14?
But this topic comes down to few simple ideas.
First, it needs to be fun.
Second, every type of gameplay should be viable.
Third, every type of gameplay should still be able to be outskilled by the other.
Since with current class design neither the above can be achieved they need to focus on balance. simple.
Edit:
I could go into further detail on how class design affects the playstyle but one good example its the amount of disruptive spells the game currently has.
This, plus the fact that most defensives match offensive cds in duration and avaiability and the fact that sustained damage for most classes is close to none makes every game a slow grind.
Stuff like havoc mortal coil,
2 stuns, banish and a ranged kick for dh
stun, ring, incap on top of high mobility and a 1minute ish karma for ww
AMS (10 seconds), grip, pet kick, pet stun, asphixiate, mind freeze for dks
Subterfuge for rogues
All of the above need to be tuned down, along with some others… its a really long list.
I think you misunderstood the entire point I was trying to convey. It’s not about what’s viable – it’s about what’s fun.
Let’s take something like the dispel revamp Blizzard did for Mists of Pandaria. Prior to that you could just spam the dispel button until you went out of mana. After the revamp it became a cooldown, so you had to be more selective with when you chose to use it.
There’s a preference there.
Some people will like the hectic gameplay of trying to keep up with constantly dispelling magic effects and really having some fast reactions.
Other people will prefer the more strategic and careful use of a cooldown, so you have to consider and plan around what needs to be dispelled and what doesn’t.
The gameplay design can’t be both.
What?! Why do you always read people’s posts as if it’s about judging their knowledge on something you think you’re wiser about?!
I gave an example that some people might have enjoyed those Seasons and considered them to be their favorites, even if they were not the most balanced seasons.
They were just random seasons I picked – the final seasons for the first 3 expansions. I wasn’t trying to say which seasons were regarded as the best by you or anyone else. It was just an example. Ffs. It’s like talking to a kindergarten around here sometimes. ![:disappointed:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/disappointed.png?v=6" ":disappointed:")
You talk too much pillar humper, this is a good change.
Red name must die in a second like a cockroach when you hit them with the stick.
+1 what Jito said. Well put
To be honest? It doesn’t need broken damage trinkets, death saving mechanics but more outplay possibilities. MoP was fun because you could outplay your opponent. Grounding/Intervening and Reflecting traps. Turn Evil on DK when he used Lichbourne. Bind Elemental vs mages and many many more. That’s what this game lacks.
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Cata was 10 and MoP 14-15. S12 was the worst season in MoP. Probably misscalculated
Imagine there is an essence, soon to come in 8.2, that increases crit strike damage by 35%. Guess who just got +35% damage on Chaos Bolt on a 1.5 min CD 
Fire Mages and Fury Warriors with their autocrit mechanics will also be very dumb with that one.
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Just line the bolt remember
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Easy, after all. We’ve got professional warlocks on these forums to teach us the way.
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Dont worry i pulled out of pvp in S1 where locks drainsoul globaled you etc, constantly having to pull up logs to check what even killed you because nobody fkin knows (op trait stacking) etc…
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I agree with the people saying explosive damage is more fun and I’d take this game play aswel. There was one guy talking about dying in a stun which obviously isn’t fun and i remember back in my warrior days you’d intervene the stun trying to catch the kidney or atleast applying the damage reduction buff the point is that if they have us more ways to save each other and counter play it would be better than just nerfing everything and for sure things would need to go if damage was alot higher.
The ammount of stuns would need to be pruned cc would need to be harder to land make spell reflect base line again make hunters scatter for trap remove double blink give dhs a slow instead of fel eruption and remove the need to mana burn give Ret dispel / so dispel back maybe even bring back the old dispel that didn’t have a cd but make it alot more mana expensive so you have to think about what our dispelling or your gonna oom.
These are only a handful of things but you get the idea.