[8.2 Spoilerific] Horde infighting


#21

But she is willing to do anything to keep alive, what choice is “so bad it can possibly be picked”, moreover how would such a choice from being either really evil or good even work?

Like choosing between mass murdering a bunch of innocents or feeding them instead?

It is just to late for stuff like that.

It was an Alliance held world at the end of the day. Trolls and Tauren were a single tribe almost driven to extinction by the Centars/Murlocs, Forsaken were nearly created and only been around for several years and Orcs are space invaders which were in camps for a lot of it and managed to escape on several boats to Kali’.

Gameplay-wise they did get shafted with the amount they got, but story-wise it makes sense why it happened. And ultimately that is the way I am arguing this from.

And yes, clearly there was a lot of complaining as change did happen at the expense of the Alliance. Even now people complain about it, you really think they didn’t back then?

Yes, the Horde has the power to directly tackle the Alliance head on despite what I said previously, and despite losing that war they still claimed most of the things they took. They won in all but name.

You are referring to gameplay again, even then Boralas doesn’t cover the lengh of most of a zone and Dazar’ still has a lot of width to it. And I am willing to believe that the lore map would have it being massive.

Well, they were falling from within as well as from external threats. But they are (or were) still very powerful.

And you have a massive city to make up for it. Furthermore, most towns were lost on Kul’tiras.

Oh, basically ruins, tents and a ruined port? Warfang is still the best by a mile and is an actually base. Which is then followed by that Pirate/Horde base in Tirisgarde. Then perhaps the Alliance mole machines and tents in Zuldazar.

Can we just agree that both of these are important to the story, the land as well as the characters? Both have their pros and cons to this argument and I find it pointless to argue which part is more important as they have both have good reasons for it to be higher?


(Lyonidus) #22

I don’t know, that is why I didn’t specify any details.

Yes, it is too late, but it could’ve been used so that it doesn’t feel like the Horde is gonna commit a war crime every 5 minutes.
Actually have two sides like we’ve been promised.

I mean, how many humans could’ve been alive at that point.
Nortern EK was pretty much wiped out and Stormwind was just rebuilt. How many people escaped south and how many people left for Stormwind after the Horde was beaten in the Second war.

Everything in WoW is done by the player, maybe the zones didn’t really need to be equal but there’s no reason to why not have the same number of quests.
Just because the Alliance had a bigger population doesn’t mean they should just get more of everything.

So the Horde should always just be weaker then?
You just can’t have a faction war expansion if that’s the case.
If you don’t want to buff the Horde why not have the Alliance suffer some loss that’s gonna put them on the same level.

Personally I wouldn’t feel good knowing that Alliance will always have the bigger part in the story then because the Horde can’t do as much and always play the 2nd fiddle.

Dazar’alor can be as big as you want, but it still doesn’t change the fact that other than Zuldazar, the Zandalari don’t really control anything else on Zandalar.
Which is not the case for Kul Tiras.

So just because Horde gets 1 base everything is ok now?
How are the towns in Kul Tiras lost? Even with the towns they kept they’re still ahead of the Horde in that department.
I don’t count the base in Tirisgarde because we’re basically just renting the place.

No, not currently at least.
The Blizz story team is currently all about the “Game of Thrones” style storytelling which gives massive emphasis on characters.
As long as they continue to write like that characters will always matter more since they’re always gonna drive the story the most.
Never said I liked it but it’s just how it is at the moment.


(Daltor) #23

Spoilers much.


(Daltor) #24

Most people around Khadgar’s (real) age.

What are we getting more of? Because it isn’t quality story, that’s for sure.


(Lyonidus) #25

That was a comment about the state of the game in Vanilla where Alliance had much more content than the Horde.

At least you story isn’t killing your own faction, I’d take what the Alliance has right now over the Horde story any day.


(Daltor) #26

You’d rather take being the punching bag who win but always lose, and rarely if ever get any engaging story?
Alright, you do you.


(Aster) #27

Well my opinion is just what I gathered in a day’s work.
Take it with a grain of salt.

First Activision Blizzard told we are not getting MoP 2.0.

Even though the concept is the same, the story isn’t the same.

I played in MoP did LFR with my Human Mage in a friend’s account for a month.

The differences in my opinion (subjected to discussing):

  • Sylvanas won’t be turned in to a raid boss as Garrosh, they already stated that.
  • There will not be a full Alliance support this time.
    I remember seeing during the assault Night Elves attacking Ogrimar gates, distracting Garrosh’s guards, the same people that wants Horde hides now for burning and killing their civilians.
  • Anduin arranged the meeting between Jaina and Baine, through Mathias Shaw and Valeera.
    It seems Saurfang, Thrall and Lor’themar Theron are going to rescue Baine.
    So from what I have been reading on the forums, there will be no army this time.
    No Alliance army and no Rebel army as well.
    Only the Pc and a handful of characters, from Alliance and Horde.
  • The Sunreavers scenario, poses a interesting question.
    Lor’themar and Jaina seemed to be together, in freeing Baine scenario, but the Sunreavers don’t lower their weapons on the presence of the Blood Elf leader.
    Instead they remember old hatreds towards Jaina and the purge of Dalaran.
    Which may indicate, Sylvanas has all the Horde army on her hands.
    Saurfang is powerless, that’s why he wanted Anduin to kill him and hoped he would stop Sylvanas.
    Lor’themar outside Sylvanas ranks is powerless as well, he chose to side with Baine now he will suffer the consequences perhaps.

All of this is just my speculation.

I got this from the Us forum, they got it from mmo champion:

Lor’themar Briefs Player on Quest to Free Baine
Lor’themar: Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin’dorei might have died out against the Scourge.
Lor’themar: Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong.
Lor’themar: Now that bond is threatened by another warchief… one whom I once knew well.
Lor’themar: My people will not abandon the Horde, nor will we stand idle as it is destroyed from within.
Lor’themar: Rendezvous with our allies and rescue Baine. We will deal with the consequences as they come.”

Also some surprise Sunreaver action. I’m assuming this happens when the trap is sprung.

"> * Have you forgotten the purge of Dalaran, murderer? Today, the Sunreavers will be avenged.

  • Then your vendetta is with me, and me alone!
  • No! You will watch your friends die–just as I did!
  • Rangers! Kill them all! FOR THE SUNREAVERS!"

All I can say this got my curiosity.
Most of the players from both sides will probably hate this, I on the other hand like Thrall, Baine, Lor’themar and Anduin so I am very curious.
Also Jaina accepting to put her grudge aside for a better end is remarkable.

I usually criticize the writing, now I will concede they got my attention.

Cheers.


(Lyonidus) #28

I see it differently.

I see Alliance characters dominating the narrative in any non faction war expansion, I see a story where the writers aren’t intentionally destroying your faction’s identity, having to beg the opposite faction for help because your faction can’t control itself and can’t stop committing war crimes every 5 minutes.

So yes, I’d rather have the stories be reversed.
Many Alliance players would also like that as well, Alliance being the proactive side for once and not just forgive the Horde because “we have to unite to stop N’zoth” or some other crap.

Seeing the comment you made I’m gonna go on a limb here and guess that you would like that as well.


(Daltor) #29

I would but I know it will never happen because of the golden child is at the helm and wants to bring peace to all of Azeroth.

While peace is nice, it still doesn’t do justice to every atrocity that has be felled us and has gone without retribution.

Even when we win, we lose. That’s the problem with 2 factions, no single side can win, so it just leaves you in a constant state of bluball where you want the story to conclude but know it never will.


#30

Its all such a joke, and I swear please tell me this wont be a…the voices trick the banshee queen thing as well.

As for what was posted on wowhead few thoughts right now.

This whole lets fight each other, lets join together and fight someone else now thing has to stop. There is no reason the writing has to keep doing this same thing over and over it is done to death, and its a joke.

Just keep the factions hating and at war its Warcraft not Friends craft.

“But they cant face a threat alone” thing over and over there is no reason it has to be written this way again and again.

Also why even have alliance leaders go to help baine their is no reasons for them to be there by having them once again aidding the horde on its own problems you are once again doing a MoP thing of - don’t worry horde the alliance is here to save you.

This should of been a horde only thing again no reason for the alliance to be there o wait there reason is cuz baine helped jaina out and golden boy king is mostly likely like yea jaina go so everyone can be Friends again yey! for the alliance!

there really is like no point in having two factions anymore.

sry for rant


(Vanasia) #31

That because blizzard have lost touch with the story and they want to play safe ( the boring and Predictable path)

If…
Stormwind was destroyed instead of Teldrassil.
Anduin was a prisoner instead of baine.
Jaina was succumbed to the old gods because of hate.
Shaw betrayed the alliance to be the king.
Gen died during the stormwind destruction.

Then we would have got an interesting story that is truly Different.


(Huopoh) #32

Oh? In what fashion, haven’t heard


(Tèsla) #33

Saurfang and Thrall make their way through the city with a stealth totem granted by Rokhan.


(Aster) #34

Well said.

I read on US forums (speculation), that the reason they don’t want to do that is because they are afraid the backlash they would get from Alliance players.
Not people that want a different story, people who like the lawful Alliance.

On Horde side they know they can get away with that narrative.
Players didn’t massively unsubscribe in other period’s.

And there’s always the question:
Where you place the chaotic players ?
The ones that love events like War, killing civilians and being shall we say straight up evil ?

Right now the only place that have that kind of lore is Sylvanas Forsaken.
There’s no place for them in the Alliance lore.

I think this the problem, when you write for a MMO audience.
What ever you write, a portion of the players will not like it.
Try to please everyone like in BfA and it seems everyone will hate it.

  • WoT event should had been for evil players.
  • Conflicts scenarios that came after, should had been for players that like war.
    Example: siege of Undercity, Battle of Dazar’alor.
  • G’huun, Old Gods, Queen Azshara, for players that like PVE.
  • Horde rebellion for players that don’t like war.

Edit:
The RTS Warcraft 2 is from what I gathered, the last time the 2 factions were really at war with concequences.
Warcraft 3 is more a series of novels.
Arthas, Thrall, Jaina, Tyrande and Malfurion.

WoW can’t portrait in my opinion the faction war.
Write a win for the Horde like WoT and the Alliance players will hate it.
Write a win for the Alliance as Battle of Dazar’alor and the Horde players will hate it.

Make a faction win over other and expect a massive unsubscribe for the side that loses the war.

I have read countless threads about Theramore, camp Taraujo, Gilneas, purge of Dalaran.
People are still salty about it.
It has been how many years since than ?

Yet not many players discuss how the Alliance lost to Horde in the first game and how Horde was beaten by the Alliance in the second game.

The MMO is just way too sensitive to portrait anything relevant, in my opinion.

That’s just my thoughts.
Cheers.


#35

Issue here is that like any writing plot/pattern or idea, the path of faction fights faction, faction realises fighting faction is bad and then both factions fight an even bigger threat in itself isn’t a bad idea.

In fact, it can be as great as any idea.

Sadly, in WoW, it’s such a constant thing now for what feels like every yearly expansion that it doesn’t feel as narratively shocking or impactful anymore because… that is what is expected to happen already.


#36

Yeah… 8.2.5. it is:

After defeating Azshara:
Lor’themar: Our victory rings hollow. Azshara’s master will rise. Nothing can stop that now.
Jaina: For all her lies, Priscilla Ashvane spoke one truth. The war between the Alliance and Horde has kept us distracted. Divided, we have no hope against N’Zoth.

Lor’themar: We may have found common cause here in Nazjatar, but the battle still rages beyond these waters. So long as Sylvanas holds Orgrimmar, there can be no lasting peace.
Jaina: The war needs to end, Lor’themar. You know this to be true.
Lor’themar: I had hoped that reason would prevail. But the time has come to finish this.
Lor’themar: I will tell my people what transpired here. Of how Azshara fell because we stood together. Of the threat rising from the depths, and all that is at stake if we should fail.

Lor’themar: Then I will take my place beside Saurfang and Thrall, and pray that the sin’dorei stand with me.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/news=291267/baine-war-campaign-and-player-choice-in-patch-8-2-broadcast-text-spoilers

Interesting that Lorte is taking an actual leadership role here. That will revive the warchief speculations, I guess…


(Steala) #37

I really like that they show Lorte this like and not as some of Sylvanas lapdogs. He is a interesting character if he get the spotlight.


#38

That’s ok, but I had really hoped that when he acted he would actually have a plan. Waiting an scheming is only interesting, when there are actually results at the end… and it seems his plan was… erm, waiting for Thrall? Maybe there will be more details, we’ll see, but I’m not impressed yet.


(Steala) #39

Well, at least he stand against someone which sacrificed her life once for his people. But it’s still the same role which he got in MoP. It’s even with Jaina again…


(Zakkaru) #40

Zuldazar zone is much bigger than Tiragarde sound, compare the size of Zandalar and KT zones.

And Horde didn’t save “zandalari like 5 times”. Horde PC was assisting them them, only Darkspears and gob squad was actual Horde support and it was only in Nazmir. All 3 big invasions during Zandalar Forever scenario were handled by Zandalari alone.

Even in Uldir Raid you see Zandalari and Talanji present.
In the Tides of vengeance you see massive Zandalari army mobilization, and it was mostly Zandalari that repelled Alliance from Nazmir.

Even when you do the raid you see that it was Zandalari that were mostly fighting back. Horde really didn’t give that much of assistance, as you claim it did.