Alliance and Horde leaders


(Araphant) #42

I am well aware. I am also aware she was trying to make a vaccine, a thing mostly ignored when this is mentioned.


(Shadowtwili) #43

Doesn’t mean the gnomes weren’t the first to invent the “Forsaken” Blight, though.


(Araphant) #44

I really doubt the definition is precise. A single gnome accidentaly invented something the gnomes never use. IIRC, the forsaken do not benefit from this research, so using this as an accusation vs gnomes is kinda stretching it.

The forsaken final version is perfected by Naxxramas spores.


(Brigante) #45

I think their problem is, and I think to an extent, it is a problem across both factions, is that unless a racial leader is drastically important to the story, they just kind of become a blank cipher, and are kind of tossed to the wayside until one of the Dev’s goes “Hey! The Dwarves/Blood Elves/Pandaren have a racial leader, lets use them!” Till then we’re mostly on the Jaina/Sylvanas crazy train, with Anduin Holy Bones holding the tiller.

Absolute nonsense, hyperbole of the highest factor and hardly warranted in this particular discussion. I was making a counterpoint to someone stating something about the Horde and it being awkward to try and play one. I notice you were rather deafeningly silent at that point, only jumping in when I responded…

Well, no, I mean you would not be kidding. You would be outright lying. That is quite patently -not- what I stated the last time I posted, I mean that is going back quite a while now, Pretty sure I have posted since then. Besides which, I was correct. That may not have been the -intention- (and in fact almost certainly was not) but it was a Gnome that perfected the Blight as we know it.
So what? I can like Gnomes, but hate Sicco Thermaplugg, I can like Blood Elves but find Kael’thas to be a dull generic character, I can like humans but think that the wrong Wrynn died. So what if some Gnome accidentally through their research, perfected the Forsaken wonder weapon.

Terribly sorry if lots of words distress you, perhaps we should all communicate in emoji’s. I assure you also, it is not an effort, I just type, and think. I am not -trying- to be anything, I certainly am not investing the effort to be trying too hard, and as much as it may, again, distress you Daelinna/Arctur, not -everything- is about you. I do not post simply to make you cringe, and to be honest, it is somewhat arrogant of you to assume that I do.

They’re just eejits. Why the heck would Elves have Shamans? none of their cultural iterations have had any inclination, belief structure or reason to have learned Shamanism. It makes no sense. No to Elven Shamans, No to Elven Druids…oh, damn, well, alright, the Kaldorei get a free pass, but no to the rest of Elves getting druids!

To be honest, I’m like a Wasp in that regard (I never thought I would equate myself to a creature that is my dire mortal enemy and I am utterly fearful of) If someone starts smack talking the Alliance for no reason, I will weigh in going "Err, no, " If someone starts smack talking the Horde for no reason I will weigh in going “Whoah there, I think you’ll find” Basically if you smack it, it gets angrier. If you don’t it just does its own thing. The Blood War thing (Which is a stupid name, we should have kept the War of Thorns, that actually sounds like a credible name for a war) comes from the fact that we cannot go without a week without some Human Paladin Poster (Yes, that is a vague meme at this point, usually due to the General forums) going “The Horde is Evil, Because X”

Everybody nods “yeeessss, Yeeeess the Horde is Eeeevil, Tell us More…” “Well, the Horde is Evil! Because they do really Bad Stuff! And yet people still play Horde, surely they’re Evil!”
"Yeeeesss, Yeeeees the Horde players are Eeeevil, "

That is generally the point where I enter ‘Wasp’ mode and go “Hang on a minute there…have a think about what you are saying…”

I mean both sides have idiots, and then you get some who genuinely play both sides and don’t give a hoot as long as the story is good, but…the Blood War does seem to have brought out the worst in the Human Paladin Posters, so I kind of get aggressive in return. You want to slam x race/x faction, I’ll slam back, I play just about every race, in fact yeah, bar LFD and Voidies, Oh and Kul Tirans (We’re human honest, despite the fact our bone structure would collapse if we were)
If you want to examine the belligerence, examine the fact that it is -always- a response, never an instigation. I never weigh into a thread and kick off, it always needs someone to have started the argument.

It is, whilst missing the essential irony that in so doing, they are basically taking the blue pill and going with the herd mentality, rather than thinking for themselves.


(Araphant) #46

The OP found it necessary to tell you that he plays both factions because you seemingly accused him of “stroking” his ego to Jaina…

And this wouldn’t be the first thread on which you were avenging imaginary slights.

I won’t even bother addressing the rest, if you feel the need to call some “human paladin” out, ( I am pretty sure I am the only regular poster of that combo, and I am pretty chill) call them out directly, instead of putting a new face into a situation where they apologize for making a thread…

I really can not explain it in a more benign manner, mister Wasp, take it as you will.


#47

Velen must be very strong too. In the Warlords of Draenor trailer he was preparing like a massive Light attack against the entire Iron Horde army. I bet he could singlehandedly destroy entire legions with his Light powers. And this still would pale in comparison to what his two brothers could do with the power of Sargeras.


(Brigante) #48

I wasn’t referring to the OP… but a post about 30 iterations later…C’mon man, get with the programme… I never accused the OP of anything…

Nor the first that suddenly turned into a “The Horde is Evil” thread. We can’t -have- a neutral conversation it seems, because it has to turn into the same old same old…

Let me just pose a question, as an aside; Have any Alliance players actually been accused of being a Neo N’azi because they play Alliance? Have you been accused of being sexist, homophobic (ironic given that shamanistic cultures were quite accepting of that by the way) or advocating the extermination of ‘Lesser’ races? No? I have, just because I post on a Horde Main. (And I have to add, by a fairly frequent poster on this forum). I am none of those things, I attend Pride marches locally and convenient, despite being Het, I have protested against organisations like the EDL, I have even been punched for looking ‘too German’ after a football match went against England (I’ve got blonde hair and blue eyes, what am I supposed to do about that?) The point being that someone chose to make a statement that because I played Horde, I was somehow phobic against various things, which I am not. How am I not supposed to take that as an attack? They are accusing me of having tendencies I personally find horrible, odious and actively oppose, purely based on the fact that my portrait has a red background to it! It is -always- people posting on male human paladins (No it, wasn’t Arctur, whilst I disagree with them on many things, it was not them). I don’t care how bruised this may make your sensibilities, that is not OK, in any way, shape or form. Time and time again we see this “The Alliance can win because of X” rubbish. Well clearly they can’t. “Yeah but the Alliance should win because of Y” Well clearly they didn’t.

Disagree and suddenly it is “Well you’re just a Sylvanas fanboy” (Admittedly that was Arctur) whereas anyone who had bothered to read the threads would realise I utterly loathe Sylvanas, and especially Nathanos.

There is no need to close down dialogue in such a way, just start a thread about how cool the Alliance is, do not come up with some disingenuous method of trying to look like it is a conversation, just be honest.

This conversation had a neutral standpoint, and I responded to post number 31 I think it was. I was not having a pop at the OP, because they make a valid point. If you had read the thread, you would have realised that.


(Araphant) #49

Lets leave it at this then.


(Brigante) #50

That’s cool by me, but it is a good point that they make, some leaders are just that, good leaders, people who shine now and then, they don’t need Mega Powers to remind us how cool they are, they can just be good leaders, same as real life. I am relatively certain that I could take the Prime Minister in a fight, I am certain that I could take the Queen in a fight (But that would be treason, and I would never contemplate such), that doesn’t make them rubbish leaders (Well, OK, in the case of the Prime Minister he -is- Rubbish, but that is because of who he is, not his position) Sometimes you just need people who are good at their job because, well, they are good at their job. People like Lor’themar, Gelbin Mekkatorque, Moira Thaurissan, Jastor Gallywix, Baine, Rok’han. They don’t need superpowers, or rather, they do, they need the super power of somehow having to control a nation and remain in power…


(Shadowtwili) #51

I… uuuhhhh… I think I’m going… that way…

:door:


#52

Without Alleria , Alliance would have been overrun in undercity, without Jaina’s teleport , the main Alliance leaders would have melted in game


(Northgrave) #53

Yeah, because all Blizzard is capable of nowadays is writing a superhero story.


#54

Isnt Horde evil though? :thinking:


#55

You know the Alliance has anti-Scourge specialists yes? People who devoted their existence to defeating the Lich King? And then the Sparkle Knights.

No you see, the Alliance is evil. Look at all those innocent blood elves that were killed in Dalaran. Even the armed ones. Clearly Aethas did nothing wrong! Violating neutrality is perfectly acceptable as long as we do it!

Laughs in war crime relativism

Now seriously, the Horde is not evil. But many many many of its participants are, especially common among the Forsaken.

Do we call Sky Admiral Rogers evil by any chance?


(Brigante) #56

No, the Alliance is not Evil. The Alliance -can- be Evil, same as anyone can, but it is not intrinsically Evil.

They were armed, they had a chance to lay down their weapons. The unarmed ones didn’t. You can’t lay down arms that you don’t have… so yes, innocent Blood Elves were killed in Dalaran. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.I mean you are literally as the player character Alliance Hero sent to kill a shopkeeper in their own home, and a guy drawing his own money out of the bank. That is Evil. How you dress it up is up to you, but those are not nice activities, those were not people involved in the actions of two or three Sunreavers, those were people innocent of any wrongdoing, resisting arrest by a paramilitary organisation that had no power of arrest over them.

He did. He refused to disclose knowledge of a crime. He did not orchestrate it, plan it, or aid in its accomplishment, but he did find out about it after the event, and chose not to tell Jaina, fearing her wrath less than Garrosh’s

Pretty much Jaina’s mantra since forever. Violating Neutrality is fine when she does it. When Aethas does it, it is a justified cause to murder and torture civilians. Just sayin’, as you brought it up.

Its pretty grim to be honest, I mean it is funny because it is pixels, but if these were real people, yeah, that’s pretty damned grim.

Absolutely 100% spot on. As a Body Politic it errs on the side of bad, but not intrinsically evil, the Forsaken are the differential, it is hard to argue any redeeming factors towards their action, and to be honest, I wouldn’t. Yes, they are Evil.

It seems we do not. Should we? Yes, Yes we should. She murders unarmed prisoners of war. Does she have reason for hating the body politic to which those unarmed people belong to? Yes she does. Does that excuse war crimes? No, no it does not. I guess it is OK because ‘SHA’, but then, if the impulse wasn’t -there- then the Sha would have no hold. So she wanted to.

Sky Admiral Rogers is a perfect example of a ‘Good’ Evil Character, and that is why she is such a well written character that I want to see more of. I’d have rather it was her on the Wind’s Redemption, and not Jes-Tereth, though again, another character who needed more exposure.

But yes, Rogers is evil, by our modern standards.


(Shadowtwili) #57

I don’t think Rogers is evil, or was in the wrong, for gunning down those Horde navy sailors, they where still military personnel that just recently fought a naval (and ground iirc) battle against her people and faction.


(Brigante) #58

I suppose it depends, by our standards today, her actions -could- have gotten at the very least a Court Martial and imprisonment. I mean the point at which an enemy soldier drops, or does not have their weapon, their legal status as an enemy changes.

It -is- legal to shoot an unarmed and uniformed enemy combatant if they are still belligerent in intention (So basically trying to beat you up) It -is- legal to shoot an armed belligerent civilian if they are part of an enemy militia or irregulars.
It is however -not- legal to shoot an unarmed and uniformed enemy combatant if they are not undertaking belligerent activity, such instead fall into the bracket of Prisoners of War, and are to be protected and removed from the immediate field of combat with utmost expedience.

Its a massive grey area. They were definitely enemy combatants, they were definitely unarmed, they were definitely uniformed. They were not however carrying out any belligerent action (Trying to swim and stop drowning is not a belligerent action :slight_smile: ) This said, that is going by modern day codes of military conduct, and we have no idea what Azeroth’s prevailing mentality is like, regarding such things. We know that they do -have- a concept of War crimes, as the novel by the same name shows, however all we have evidence of, is the Pandaren legal code, not the Horde’s or for that matter, the Alliance’s.

I suppose therefore was Admiral Rogers Evil?
To our morality and real world Military legal Code? Yes.
To Azeroth’s? Who knows? Probably not.


#59

So you don’t believe in war crimes as the Geneva conventions define it? Good, than neither Sylvanas nor Garrosh did anything wrong ever. Good we can agree :+1:t2:


(Brigante) #60

Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) Defined

The LOAC arises from a desire among civilized nations to prevent unnecessary suffering and destruction while not impeding the effective waging of war. A part of public international law, LOAC regulates the conduct of armed hostilities. It also aims to protect civilians, prisoners of War, the wounded, sick, and shipwrecked.

Those who violate LOAC may be held criminally liable for war crimes.

So actually, I revise my opinion, Yes, Admiral Rogers is a War Criminal, and by our definitions of the term? Evil, and would be in the Hague facing charges.


(Shadowtwili) #61

Well, guess this is a thread about real life politics now.

No, I do not believe in warcrimes as the Geneva convention define it, I believes it gives our countries a handicap against (potentional) enemies.

Oh we should treat enemy combatants fairly because we’re morally superior or something? Please, the idea too feed and keep an enemy soldier healthy is ridiculous, what if they escape? what if the enemy liberates their camp, suddenly they have a bunch of healthy, fighting shape soldiers back. GG.