Alliance High Elf Allied Race Megathread


#819

That’s not entirely correct though… We know their state of rot is not “fixed”, because if I remember correctly, in the Christie Golden novel (I think it’s Before the Storm), there are some Forsaken whose job it is to “maintain” the rest.
Kind of like Humans have doctors to stitch cuts and set broken bones, the Forsaken have those whose job it is to find new parts for Forsaken who lose their arm or leg or jaw. I think there’s a description of an undead fellow who has lost his arm one way or the other, and this “healer” stitches on a new arm for him, the arm has different musculature compared to his old arm and the “healer” muses on the fact that it will never change. It will not lose or gain musculature as they are not alive.

I think the Forsaken are stuck more in a “perpetual state of rot”, where they stink to high heaven because they are decomposed corpses, but won’t rot away completely. Because (necromantic) magic!
Or they rot extremely slowly because they are maintained by the necromantic energies. And they could use techniques of preservation, such as embalming to slow the process even further.

But even if they didn’t smell of anything personally, they would smell of wherever they stayed for an extended period of time. Their skin and clothes would take on the smell of their surroundings, and I imagine the Forsaken who used to live in the sewers beneath the ruins of Capital City didn’t smell like daisies.


(Solithrien) #820

It’d make sense for the forsaken to rot. We know from that book in Acherus that Death Knights still decompose over time, and they were raised with much more powerful necromancy than the forsaken.


#821

Don’t know why you insist on being wrong about this same topic again, but here we go again.

Blizzard also used Night Elf models for High Elves including Sylvanas before they made Blood Elves a playable thing. The High Elf spirits in Ghostlands still use the blond Night Elf models. So any argument you make about what non-playable NPCs ingame currently look like has no bearing on the customizations that a playable Allied Race could have.

Dark Iron Dwarves also used to be just plain old dwarves with a reskin. Now they have unique hair, fire effects, and tattoos (which is more of a Wildhammer thing anyway). Does that mean that the Dark Iron allied race are not Dark Iron dwarves? Obviously they are Dark Iron dwarves, and got more attention and detail put into them once they became a playable allied race.

Putting on facepaint and different hairstyles on a High Elf won’t make them not High Elves. So if you look at the concept art and go ‘that’s not High Elves’ is just ridiculous. That’s clearly a High Elf who braided their hair and put on warpaint. Still a High Elf. We don’t need any other customization to already prove that ‘just blue eyes’ is clearly not the only difference, but we can easily go even further. Who are you to say that their posture or body build wouldn’t alter if they started eating a more robust mixed human or dwarven diet instead of eating Bloodthistle petals and Lynx meat as the Blood Elves still in Quel’thalas are seen to do. They’d still be a high elf if they changed their muscle tone just as a thin Kul Tirans and the beefy Kul Tirans are the same race - human.

I also feel like I already debunked your ‘but mah facepaint’ blood elf/high elf issue, but here we go again. High Elves could easily embrace face paint as a cultural custom that they hang on to. Nothing about Blood Elves - and they’ve been playable for over a decade now - indicates that they favor face paints. It would be incredibly simple in lore to explain that Blood Elves have moved away from that custom to stand out from their shared High Elf past.

And just because some Blood Elves could have face paints doesn’t mean that a High Elf allied race shouldn’t get face paints. You don’t see my Tauren druid whining that the Highmountain Tauren shaman got warpaint. They’re welcome to those colours and patterns since they clearly care about it a lot more than Mulgore Tauren who were around since vanilla and still weren’t bothered with putting on proper fur paints. Same with High Elves and facial markings.

Your body build argument also doesn’t work. Do you reckon that all Stormwind humans are buff? Because that’s all you see ingame. Do you reckon that only Kul Tirans can get thicc or scrawny as we see ingame? Obviously not. Stormwind humans are all buff even though in lore many of them would be scrawnier or thiccer; Blood Elves are all a leaner type even though they could have more muscly types in lore too; and playable High Elves could totally be a more athletic-postured allied race even though many of them would be just as lean as Blood Elves. So yes, having a High Elf Allied Race with a different posture or body build would be completely fine. You also don’t know how the training of the Silver Covenant or the Allerian forces differs from the Sunreavers or the Farstriders now for example, the Exile from Silvermoon happened over a decade ago.

So really, all of the customization options I listed would make sense because all of those changes happen during someone’s lifetime regarless of race. Posture can change, body build can change, face paints can change (makeup trends come and go every year or so fyi), skin color can change, your hair colour gets lighter due to sun damage over the course of a single summer, no milennia of evolution needed, man. And playable Race customizations never ever had to encompass the whole spectrum of one race (see human body types) nor did they have to be exclusive to an Allied Race (see Tauren and Highmountain Tauren fur paints). Holding High Elves to a standard that none of the other races exhibit is just nitpicking for the sake of sabotaging a perfectly workable and lore-friendly set of customization options for a potential Allied Race.


(Brigante) #822

I’ll keep up being right as long as you keep up being wrong, its like a hostile symbiotic relationship, but here we go again…

Now, why do you think that could be? Did they have the current High Elf models at the time? Why no they did not. The one time they did, was the ‘Quel’dorei spirits’ in Ghostlands. Yeah. Remember when the Silvermoon City Guardians all looked identical and didn’t use the Blood/High Elf model either, until recently?

“Could have” is not the same as “Should have”, or are you saying you would be happy with the blonde Night Elf Models? Or the Actual NPC High Elves? If you want Alliance Elves who don’t look like High Elves then crack on. I’ll see you in the thread asking for Playable Blood Elves who look like how they should in lore, to which I trust you will lend equal vigour.

No. Because it made -sense-. Come on, read what you are typing. None of the changes bar haircuts make any sense!

Well, no, that is the lore friendly approach. None of that Concept art is in any way endorsed or canon or even semi official. I could paint a picture about what they should look like, doesn’t make them real.

Answer my points, rather than getting hysteric.

How many High Elves are depicted in Lore as having braids and warpaint?

Simple question.

I don’t know, you seem to think you are qualified to make a similar assumption, why not tell us the nutritional value of those products and why they would alter a species basic biology? I mean Lynx meat would actually be pretty good for you, a lot better than boar meat.

You just want muscly High Elves don’t you? Be honest. There is zero reason for it, and you never answer the question, just always go “but…they would have more muscles” Sure they would. That makes complete (By complete, I mean -Zero- Sense).

I cannot speak for your feelings, you have not however given any coherent reason ever as to why you have ‘debunked’ my premise. Again, You just want your special High Elves, and have no interest in working out how they could work, and they -COULD- work, if people like you stopped doing damage to the cause!

Why? What is the cultural imperative?

Apart from the fact that of all the NPC’s with them, none were High Elves after the split. Thank you. Facepaints and tattoos for Blood Elves it is then, or can you show me a -SINGLE- High Elf who has these, who was part of the Exile?

It would, but it doesn’t make sense for the smaller demographic who went to live with the ‘civilised’ people would suddenly adopt Warpaint, when the larger demographic who dwells amongst the ‘uncivilised’ people who do use Warpaint, would not, despite the fact that they rather enthusiastically did before…

Aaaaand Vice Versa!

You’re just making this up now! If you were being -absolutely- honest, it would be the Blood Elves who were more buff, although Buff Elves would look ridiculous. Diet: Same, Living Circumstances: Same, Societal Roles: Same. Why would High Elves be muscular again?

Ho boy. The Allerians were the same stock as those elves who became Blood Elves. The Silver Covenant however, are led by a child soldier (Vereesa is described as barely adult at the time of the Second War) Who never actually earned any rank in her time in the Farstriders. She since declared herself Ranger-General of the Silver Covenant. Are you seriously saying, that she has more training experience, than Ranger Lords of Quel’thalas, who -did- earn their rank?.

No, they would not, because they do -not- not under the circumstances you describe.
Posture does not change. You still have the full range of body postures throughout life, That’s a thing.

Face paints can change, good show, When the Blood Elves get them, the High Elves can.
Skin Colour can change…That’s…already possible with the existing model.
Hair colour gets lighter due to sun damage over the course of a single summer… Yes, that is…also possible. Have you -Seen- my avatar? All of these things are possible. High Elves are Possible.

So why don’t you want High Elves?

No. Always No. What you are asking for is -Not- Lore Friendly. I want Alliance High Elves to happen. The artistic suggestions, whilst lovely, are -NOT- lore friendly.

Go back, try again.


(Livía) #823

Brigante it’s a tragedy that you can simultaneously be so articulate… Yet so dense.


#824

Perhaps you should try again, because your points still boil down to the only one thing you keep repeating. That we can’t see any of the changes now. That the High Elves haven’t been shown to be different since they left SIlvermoon. That there is no lore currently to explain why High Elves would use warpaints and develop them further and the Blood Elves would consider them old and no longer fashionable. I don’t understand why you fail to see that the current state of a race doesn’t limit the lore it could get if it ever got developed.

Every single one of your ‘counterpoints’ boils down to ‘but that’s not what it’s like now’. And that’s why every single one of your points is entirely moot. The Dark Iron Dwarves, the diverse orc clans of Draenor, the culture of Kul Tiras, and even the vanilla High/Blood Elves were incredibly basic and lackluster with barely any identity to them. But once Blizzard bothered to invest time and effort into developing them, they got way more detail and lore that fleshed them out. All of that is lore-friendly and they could do that for High Elves too.

Lore-friendly doesn’t mean ‘it has always been shown to be like that’. Dark Iron with tattoos are lorefriendly, because there is nothing stopping Dark Iron dwarves from getting tattoos, and we didn’t have any lore that says Dark Irons are opposed to tattoos. Golden eyes for Blood Elves is lorefriendly, even though the lore events that enable that were written much later than the race was invented. So there is a vast array of lore that writers could come up with to actually develop High Elves into a unique Allied Race instead of not bothering with them and acting like they’re just a stagnant bunch of Blood Elf copies. All of that would be - despite your protestations - lore friendly.


#825

Get out more.


#826

His replies come across less as articulate and more as condescending, especially since they’re so dense.

It’s hilarious that you can’t see the irony in you saying that, when it supports my point. High Elves are just Blood Elf copypastes because they do not currently have a unique High Elf model. No unique hairstyles, no unique markings, jewelry, nothing. So obviously I liked that they developed a wide range of Blood Elf customization for Blood Elves instead of just using whatever Night Elf model copy they had. The same way I would like if they developed a wide range of High Elf customization instead of just using whatever Blood Elf model copy they have.

How many Dark Irons were depicted with tattoos before Blizzard developed them as an Allied Race? Simple question. I pointed out the answer in my earlier comment. If anybody before BfA drew a Kul Tiran concept art of a hairy thicc bear-body-type sailor dude and a Kul Tiran concept art of a thin scrawny tidepriest dude, it wouldn’t have been endorsed or canon or semi-official. Yet after Blizzard took the time to develop them they got a lot of unique customization and we learned about their culture and what they’ve been up to, and the game is better for it.

So instead of getting hysteric (and really please stuff the condescending nonsense when you’re so willfully blind ‘High Elves can get face paint when the Blood Elves do’) perhaps you should acknowledge that I’m right as far as all precedents are concerned and demanding anything else for High Elves is an unreasonable expectation. Tauren could also have warpaint, and regular Dwarves could also have face paint (since the Dwarf shamans added in Cata are essentially Wildhammer), yet Highmountain Tauren and Dark Iron dwarves got the tattoo options while the old races didn’t. High Elves and warpaint wouldn’t be any different, in fact it would follow previous precedents.

I gave you lore reasons for why a different body type would be lore-friendly if Blizzard writers decided to write some lore for High Elves. Diet and different activities change body types (thin humans, buff humans, bear humans all within a single species but different factions). The point was simply to prove that there could be other lore-friendly differences than just eye colour and hairstyle. I brought up Lynx meat and Bloodthistle because I’d assume that it’s a leaner cuisine and could easily result in a leaner body build than if somebody mixed more fatty meats or more coarse cerealia than just the old conjured manastrudels into their diet. And fyi, posture can also change in a persons lifetime. We got upright Orcs recently, because physiotherapy and chiropractors exist in wow lore too. So again, lore (not just real world common sense) is on my side.

I think you missed the point, this isn’t about who leads them, this is about the fact that a body build can change over a person’s lifetime. Do you exercise almost non-stop every day because you’re dodging demons? Do you change your exercise type to suit different challenges? Perhaps you start doing weight training instead of endurance training, you start to climb rocks instead of riding hawkstriders? Whatever it is, different training regimes lead to different body builds that’s the point I was making. Because there is nothing in lore that says that the current High Elves and the current Blood Elves have the same fitness routine or diet. And if Blizzard added lore that would state that they have different training regimes, it would be absolutely lore-friendly.

For the debunking, see Dwarves/Dark Iron, Tauren/Highmountain Tauren.

And as for hurting the cause, that’s what you’re doing. ‘High Elves need to be Blood Elves with blue eyes and maybe different hairstyles, but nothing else is possible, everything else is against lore’ is ignorant and harmful. Just because there is no current lore for the different ways the High Elves could have developed culturally to diverge from the Blood Elves doesn’t mean that future such lore would be against lore (see Dark Iron, Kul Tirans, Draenor clans, etc).

Would I be okay if they gave us playable High Elves that were just the Blood Elf models with blue eyes? Yes, but that’s incredibly unlikely to happen. Would I be okay if they gave us playable High Elves that were the Blood Elf models with blue eyes, different hairstyles, face markings? Yes because those would still be High Elves. Would I be okay if they gave us playable High Elves with blue eyes that used a different postured Blood Elf model, or a different rig entirely? Yes because those would still be High Elves just as thin and beefy Kul Tiran humans are still humans, and upright Orcs and hunched Orcs are still Orcs. It still wouldn’t mean that all High Elves are built that way, just as the buff humans don’t mean that all humans are built that way. But they would work as an Allied Race. Once again, it would fit in fine with lore if they decided to write any, and with previous precedents.

So you see, it’s you who is damaging the cause because you’re unwilling to entertain the possibility of lore being added to High Elves instead of keeping them a stagnating Blood Elf copy, and so you stick to one uncompromising option based on what they currently look like. A stance that would have made sure that Dark Iron were just boring Dwarves with a reskin, Kul Tirans were just boring humans with ships, and the Draenor clans were just boring Orcs with fancy names.


(Azrathel) #827

Has the perpetual autumn been canonically restored to spring?

He’s right, you know. What lore supports high elves looking like anything else than blue (mostly) eyed blood elves?

Except DI dwarfs aren’t literally the same as If dwarfs, separated by not even two decades. Other than hair styles, why would high elves be different? Different bodies don’t make any sense. Nor do skin tones. Why would they?

High elves are identical to blood elves because they’re supposed to be. That’s what they are.

Again Dark Irons were never supposed to be identical to Ironforge dwarfs.

Although miserably poorly executed, KT humans are bigger because their culture actually has different diets than that of Sw or Lordaeron humans, and the average KT body is thus bulkier than that of other humans. I know, how they’re implemented is weird, but at least it makes more sense than having high elves with different bodies.

And high elves in general exercise different than blood elves in general how, exactly?

There’d have to be some serious lore behind that to make it work. At the moment it really doesn’t seem plausible, or even necessary. Why would it? Why should high elves have different bodies? What’s the benefit?

See above. Again. We’re talking less than twenty years here.

Actually, Brig is one of the few people who actually attempt to stay on track with what we’re actually asking about: High elves, as they are in current lore.

A lot is possible, but why is it desirable? Is it really necessary?

Adding lore would be both welcome and necessary. Twisting high elves into something else wouldn’t.


#828

If you have to change the thematic core of a race in order to make them a decently playable option, then they are not a decent option.

Changing high elves into woad wearing woodlanders with muscles for days would certainly look cool and distinguish them enough from belf to make them justified. The problem is that’s not their thematic core.

High elves are in game, we’re never shown such a side of them. They fill essentially exactly the same niche of “magical elves” as belf, except they’re alliance fans, and maybe they’re a bit less bleak in their outlook.

The resources and opportunities have been there to present high elves to us as otherwise, but this never has been executed, ergo its a deviation from their current Canon to suggest “this is how they could be”. Of course they could, but that’s not what they are, is it? I mean are you even asking for high elves anymore or some kind of new elf with such changes?

If blizz did introduce the high elves as such as a future AR. Whilst I wouldn’t whinge, I would see it as a deux ex machina on the lore along the lines of the Void elves. Just because people support it more it doesn’t mean its no longer a lol on the lore.


#829

High Elves and Blood Elves already have different skin tones. They don’t have any skin tone other than pale and less pale. No tanned skin, no olive skin, nothing. People don’t have the same bodies even over a single year (Summer bodies, Winter bodies, months while you fight demons every day, months while you just eat manastrudels or whatever) so really to require that decades pass before someone’s body shape changes is ridiculous. Orcs can get a chiropractic adjustment in less than 1 minute, and they’re still Orcs.

What lore supported Dark Iron Dwarves getting Tattoos? What lore supported Blood Elves being a leaner race than Night Elves when they were updated with TBC when they were equally chunky throughout WC3 and Vanilla? What lore supported Kul Tirans being beefier AND thinner than Stormwind humans at the same time? Again please, don’t mistake a current lack of lore explanation with an impossibility to add lore in the future - which would be lore-friendly.

Kul Tirans are both thinner and thiccer than Stormwind humans too. Kul Tirans come in super thin, normal, and thicc varieties. All of them are the same race, from the same region, with probably different activities that’s all (you don’t see many scrawny guards and you don’t see many thicc tidepriests). A large chunk of Kul Tirans are the same body shape as Stormwind humans and yet the Allied Race makes the thicc type playable. Just because a playable High Elf allied race would have a different posture from Blood Elves or a different muscle tone, doesn’t mean that they’re not the same race or that all High Elves look like that. It would be fully in line with the KT precedent.

It isn’t necessary as I already pointed out in my post. But it’s also not impossible and it’s not against lore. I would be fine if they had the same bodies I already mentioned that too. But it’s super unlikely that Blizzard will add another Blood Elf/Void Elf model with no difference than just eye colour. So the benefit of added customization (some of which don’t have current lore but none of which are against lore) could be a greater likelihood of being added. You could still choose to have no facial markings if it bothered you, as you can with any race.

That is irrelevant. Again. Hair styles, face paints, body types, posture, all can change over a single year due to diet, behavior, trends, etc. Nothing in lore says that Helfs and Belfs still have the same diet, behavior, trends, etc.

And as for the DI Dwarves and HM Tauren, twenty years have nothing to do with it. For the entirety of the game and all previous depictions in lore, Dark Iron weren’t big on facial tattoos. Yet in BfA when they were added as a playable race, they got facial tattoos (while the Wildhammer shaman who had facial tattoos all this time still can’t use them). So adding face markings to Helfs after all this time would be the same perfectly fine addition. And it wouldn’t be against lore, e.g. the return of Alleria revitalized the High Elf custom of warpaint, while the Blood Elves have moved past such oldfashioned trends on purpose over the years. It’s in line with previous precedents, and would be fully lore-friendly. Doesn’t mean it needs to happen but people who pretend it would be lore-breaking or impossible are wrong.

Please don’t speak for what ‘we’re actually asking about’. You and Brig may want that, clearly, just the same stagnant Blood Elf copies that had no culture, no identity, no major lore written for them. But others, like me and OP clearly, would be fully happy if Blizz fleshed out High Elves more. Not as a necessity, but as a fully acceptable option. Because High Elves 2.0 would still be High Elves, just as the thin, normal and thicc Kul Tirans are still Kul Tirans, and upright Orcs are still Orcs.

And if the choice comes down to ‘you’ll never have a blood elf with blue eyes’ and ‘you can have high elves with extra facial markings and a unique posture’ then I’m all for it. Because I don’t want to self-sabotage my interest in High Elves by picking the least likely option simply due to a current lack of lore.


#830

There are three main problems with the “expand the lore argument”.

  1. Precedent. The races mentioned (DIs for one) are culturally distinct enough from BB dorfs that tattoos ex machina is not a massively Implausible thing, even if tattoos aren’t specifically mentioned. Also the clans have always been separated along cultural lines for several hundreds of years which makes such deviations more plausible where the lore hasn’t me essarily mentioned them outright.
    Now helves and belves had only been culturally distinct for 20 years, this creates a much lower plausibility that they have these unheard of but suddenly prevalent cultural customs we’ve heard nothing about prior. That’s a very short time for a race as long lived as elves to engage in a cultural revolution. Note: I’m not saying it’s impossible, just more implausible than your other examples given.

  2. linked to the above, you create an issue immediately of parity between belves and helves if helves suddenly have all these cultural options that belves lack. Given the weakness of such a cultural deviation being prominently fashioned, there is no good reason why belves would not have similar customisations. Particularly in the case of face paints etc. “belves collectively decided to stop wearing them” is a very weak reason to make them helf exclusive, given most of the farstriders (the elf rangers who engaged in face paint) are amongst the blood elves. It would be creating a terribly bad reason to justify the difference in lore, and subscribing to “rule of cool” over coherence which I personally don’t support.

  3. where one asks for a certain race, but adds the conditionals “but let’s give them this lore, and this culture, and this, and this” arguably you are no longer asking for that original race, you’re asking for something different. Where people are prepared to essentially reinvent high elves to make them playable, it becomes clear its not about love of high elves, but rather the opportunity to play a “high elf like race” on the alliance. If it were about love of high elves, why would so much about them need to be reinvented to get them in the game?

Re: kul tirans as well, the game heavily suggests the “big” kul tirans is not a dietary thing. It’s hinted it’s due to original in breeding between kul tiran humans and drust which gives rise to exceptionally large specimens in kul tiran biology. All kul tirans are the same race, but the big ones are expressing an ancestral trait in their geneology that others aren’t. This is why kul tirans can be druids and shaman and humans can’t as well, as this drust lineage allows certain kul tirans to “hear the wilds” as drust naturally could.

I’m aware all of this was an “addition” to kul tiran lore, but this harks back to my point about plausibility. Kul tirans have been separated from mainlander for a very long time, much longer than belf and helf. Additionally the game has only shown us scant traces of kul tirans (in durotar) and never them in their homeland, so it’s plausible there was stuff we didn’t know.

Helf have been in game repeatedly and such a side has never been shown ever. So you have to reduce that 20 year gap to even less as clearly the helves we’ve seen haven’t undergone a cultural revolution yet. This leaves 2 options:

  1. high elfs reinvent their entire culture I’m the span of less than 5 years in a way vastly different to their game presentation (hello void elf tier lore)

  2. there has been a secret congregation of high elves living somewhere totally unknown and undiscovered until it is, and they have their own culture. They could have split from the main group before the schism of helf and belf. This makes them being different plausible, but arguably you’re not playing “the high elves” we’ve seen in game in the same way playable draenei were not “playable draenei” as seen in WC3.

The 2nd option I would support more than any other, but I wouldn’t call them high elves because arguably they wouldn’t really be high elves any more would they? In the same way the Ankoan don’t call themselves Jinyu.


(Livía) #831

No where does the game state this. The only Kul Tirans with direct relation to the Drust are the druids. The Drust such as their Northeren counterparts were more happy about murdering humans. Save for that one druid trainer.


#832

I always assumed some KT humans were huge because they had a little Drust blood in them.

We know the Drust were huge after all, as they were either Vrykul or very closely related to them.
So I assumed it had been a little bit of intermingling of blood there.


(Livía) #833

Kul Tirans are bigger for no other reason that Blizzard found it cool for them to be bigger, even though they are quite frankly two heads too tall. They should have been feeding on about the same food as Stormwind seeing how both are cities bound to the sea, and they share the blood of Gilneans since it was originally a Gilnean colony.


#834

Note I used the word hint, not state. Quite different words with quite different meanings.

Ulfar was not alone in his support of peace over war. We don’t know exact numbers but through dialogue with him he makes it somewhat clear there were others once, but he is all that is left over.

Even if the hints are false and they’re just regular Joe humans with no special stuff, the point still remains that kul tirans were separated from mainland humans for longer than belf and belf, and the game only showed us a slither of kul tirans, making it somewhat plausible that some of them were different to what we’d seen. I’m not saying I personally agree that they’d end up so ginormous or whatever, but I’m saying it’s plausible. It’s certainly more plausible than the culture and physiology of a race as long lived as elves undergoing such a transformation in 20 years or less. I mean it took the quel’dorei how long to change from their kal’dorei appearence when in a land completely contrasting with their old? Over a thousand years. And you’re telling me that some of them that have lived in similar environments to their sin’dorei brethren have developed new physiology in 20 years? Yeah, I’m not buying it.

I’d rather they just use the whole “wait, there was an island of high elf exiles!” than try to sell that one.


#835
  1. It wouldn’t be an ‘unheard of’ cultural custom. High Elves have documented face paint customs in their history, Dark Irons never had any face markings, being an ‘unheard of but suddenly prevalent’ cultural custom when they were added as an Allied Race. High Elves are an offshoot of Thalassians, Dark Irons aren’t an offshoot of Wildhammer. High Elves are far more likely to have face markings than the Dark Iron, and regular dwarf shamans weren’t given face markings either before DI just got them. Hence the precedent.
  2. Tauren have a history of fur markings too. There is no reason why a Tauren shouldn’t have fur marking options but a Highmountain Tauren should. And yet these are only given to the Allied Race despite the ‘original’ race also having enough reasons to have them. Most of the Dwarf shamans are Wildhammer and yet tattoos are DI exclusive instead of being available for basic Dwarves too.
  3. None of OP’s or my suggestion are ‘reinventing’ the High Elves. Blood Elves got Draenei hairstyles in the barbershop update, that still didn’t reinvent them. Giving High Elves different hairstyles from Blood Elves wouldn’t change them either. They would still be a magical race, they would still have a large emphasis on rangers. High Elf culture and identity isn’t reliant on not having face paint or on standing in that particular posture.

Re: Kul Tirans, the ‘big’ Kul Tirans, the ‘thin’ Kul Tirans and the ‘normal’ Kul Tirans are still the same race, their body type doesn’t change their culture, their society, etc. Seeing normal humans like the Proundmoores next to the scrawny KTs and the thicc KTs doesn’t mean that they lose any of their cultural identity. Just like a more athletic-postured High Elf wouldn’t make High Elves lose their identity either.

And as far as additions go, it’s just as plausible as any. We had way more than ‘scant traces’ of Dark Irons, we met them and interacted with them including their leaders ‘in their homeland’. Yet just as it was okay for Dark Iron to get tattoos from one expansion to the next, it would be just as okay for High Elves to do so (or even more okay since as I mentioned they have at least a cultural connection to tattoos and their newly returned posterchild could have easily made them fashionable).

  1. It wouldn’t be a reinvention at all. See above. Magical race? Check. Emphasis on rangers? Check. Cooperation with humans and a history with Dalaran and sharing knowledge? Check. Different haistyles from Blood Elves doesn’t change that. Different diet (like more human and dwarf foods while Blood Elves have access to their traditional natural resources and cuisine) doesn’t reinvent the race either. So even a different muscle-toned model wouldn’t be reinventing them at all. A different posture would reinvent them even less. (Again, these aren’t necessary as I said, but a different body type or posture still doesn’t reinvent an entire culture and doesn’t even contradict anything we know about High Elves so far).
  2. When High Elves/Blood Elves were updated in TBC, nobody thought that this was reinventing the Helfs/Belfs they know and love - despite WC3 and Vanilla models clearly being chunkier and more consistent with each other than the duck lipped supermodels of TBC Belfs. Nobody thinks that Saurfang standing up straight and Orcs being able to cure their hunches reinvents Orcs either. So again, none of OP’s customizations are taking anything away from High Elf customs and culture and identity.

#836

Yes, but Gilneas didn’t have the Drust, who were all either killed or assimilated.


(Azrathel) #837

What would warrant such a change between high and blood elves? And further more, why would you want to?

Pure npc models tend to have fewer options available than player models. Also, I think some blood elven skin tones have been altered by fel exposure, similar to their eyes. Nothing here supports any new differences in skin colours or body types.

Lore wise, blood elves didn’t change when they became playable. Their models were updated. Lore wise, high and blood elves are still the same race. Lore wise, the high elves had several thousand years to evolve from night elves. Lore wise, their transformations have been explained. Lore wise, high and blood elves are still the same, bar the majority of each group’s eye colours, and fel exposed skin. Lore wise, the majority of both groups consist of both rangers and mages, living quite similar life styles. Lore wise, high elves should still look a lot like blood elves. Confusingly so. Lore wise, this is shown in game through npc dialogue.

The possibility doesn’t mean plausibility. Lore wise, high elves are currently extremely, confusingly, even, similar to blood elves. Why should that change? What we’re asking for is playable high elves. Not some new elven evolution.

That’s true. But why would such a change be needed? And again, the playable KT models represent the majority of that society. The majority of high elves are still so similar to blood elves that they’re often mixed up. This is the race we’re asking for.

It’s been suggested to add in half elf options, along side the fully blood/high elven ones. This is a kind of option I’d be happy with. To change full blooded high elves to not look like full blooded blood elves would be to add yet another altered version of the Thalassians, and that’s not what we’re asking for.

Agreed.

Should come for both Thalassians.

Not unless they come for more races.

Not likely, but not too extreme either. Preferably not.

Blood elves should also get them. And make them full body markings.

Could work, but honestly, giving it to high elves, and not also blood elves, who have been asking for them for years, would just piss a lot of people off, completely unnecessarily. There are elves on both sides who have them. Let the players get them too.

Have you been paying attention to high elven lore over the last years at all?!?

Exactly!

I’ve long been an advocate for added options for both high and blood elves. Such as blue vs. red markings.

Quoted for truth!

Exactly!

I’m all for more options to all races, but making high elves have a lot of stuff that blood elves have been asking for for years, would make them less likely, as they would truly provoke a lot of blood elf players. Adding similar, but different options to blood elves as well, on the other hand…

Kul Tirans shouldn’t be used as a measure of anything. They really don’t look like the same race, and while they’re cool, their execution, skeleton, rig and size really don’t make sense. They’re a rule of cool gone too far.

This is true. Regular tauren should have gotten them. HM tauren should really just be merged into customisation options for regular tauren.

Nobody are against new hair styles.

Why would high elves canonically be more muscular than blood elves?


(Brigante) #838

Maybe I got good rolls on my Wisdom Stat and bad ones on my Intelligence one? I don’t see what is particularly dense about what I am saying, though. I keep outlining why High Elves should look like High Elves in game, and not uber uber muscly woad warrior types. The Fan made artwork is brilliant, and very high quality, and I am a particular fan of the Celtic Aesthetic, but that does not, as the lore stands, look like High Elves.

Personal Insults aside, they are gently a mixture of hyperbole as a tool, mild sarcasm and a dry sense of humour. Never attended to be condescending, unless someone else goes there first.

Problem there is that they have been separate, in fact enemies of the other Dwarves for longer than, well, a Dwarven lifespan, just because they did it with Dark Irons doesn’t make it right. All Dwarves should have warpaint + tattoo customisation, because the Wildhammer do., the fact that they do -not- is the silly thing. Which is exactly my point with Elves, it doesn’t make -sense- for one lot to have tattoos and the other not, in the same was as it doesn’t make sense for Dwarves. They should have just chucked in Tattoo options for BB dwarves when they released DI’s to be honest.
Highmountain tauren, well, that’s a slightly different one. Whilst again I find it foolish that Tauren cannot have facepaint, there is at least the mitigating factor that HM Tauren and Tauren have been culturally isolated since the Sundering. That is thousands and thousands of years, which is massively time for cultures to shift. Especially a culture with a roughly human lifespan.

Yet what lore is this that they would have? What lifestyle are they leading that makes them look beefier? They do nothing in their lifestyle that is different. Why would a High Elf Mage, for example, be more muscular than a Blood Elf Farstrider or Blood Knight? Because that is what you would be saying (Unless we get scaling for models we’re likely always to have this incongruity,sadly).

Diets can, sure, an unhealthy diet and you’re likely to be in bad shape, oppositely with a healthy diet, but that just changes your physique, not your fundamental body type (We’re talking in the space of one generation here), and that is down to personal choice, not a cultural imperative. Generally the only time a cultural imperative enforces diet is for example in Religion, where certain things are ‘Unclean’ or Forbidden. The problem there is, Blood Elves and High Elves follow the same Religion, and the Light seems to have no dietary restrictions.

Using the Kul Tirans as a yardstick is bad. It was done for rule of cool. They could have just given them their nautical culture, plus the Shamanistic and Druidic elements, What they went with are essentially three separate sub species of Humanity. You have Chunky KT’s, Emaciated KT’s and ‘Normal’ KT’s. They are a bad example, because apart from those who-did- fight alongside us in the RTS games, like Jaina, they have been separated from ‘Mainstream’ human culture for 2,700 years. Now that-is- time for a species to evolve. However. Are all three still ‘Human’. For them to be what they are, they would have to have different skeletal structures. A ‘Chunk’ Kul Tiran with the ‘Skinny’ Kul Tiran bone structure, would die. Their brittle ribs crushed by their own body mass, their legs breaking with every step, unable to pick up heavy items. A Chunky one with the ‘normal’ human skeleton would be massively prone to breaking bones, again, would have a problem with carrying items like a sword, they would have breathing difficulties and inability to exert themselves for long periods of time. Now a ‘Skinny’ Kul Tiran’s body mass is not physically -big- enough to contain the bone structure needed for a normal human, let alone the chunky ones.

So are they truly all the -Same Species-? It is not about being overweight or underweight, they are biologically impossible to exist if they were all the same ‘species’ of ‘Normal’ Humans.
So they’re an awful example, because High and Blood Elves are the same species.
(Yes I do find the Kul Tiran models to be ridiculous for that very reason)

A Quel’thalas where people were eating Lynx and Bloodthistle would be hilarious. Everybody would be too stoned to do anything, as it is an addictive narcotic, I believe the comtemptuous term ‘Thistleheads’ is used in a quests text or novel, in the same way we would refer to ‘P*theads’.

I get what you were meaning though Problem is that Lynx meat would be classed as Red meat, it is Seafood, Poultry and Reptiles that are white meat (Yes I had to google the difference!) Any Mammal is classed as White meat, So though we never see them, I would imagine Blood Elves do have farms for agrarian shenanigans, after all, they can make wine and port, which would require Vinyards, yet we see none. As a coastal nation they likely get a lot of white meat as well as the red meat from Lynx. All in all, given that say, Stormwind is also a coastal City, with farms, and red meat, the actual make up of their dietary type is going to be identical. (Although I can’t get the image of a whole nation whacked out of their heads on Bloodthistle, out of my mind now, :smiley: that did raise a chuckle)

Sadly I know this to my cost, a person can have their posture changed, usually by a medical condition like Scoliosis, or in my case Osteoporosis.
Thing is though, that affects the individual, not society as a whole. You can argue that a career soldier will have a military bearing, and you’d be right, but again, that is a personal choice.

‘If’

Currently they live the same lifestyles.

But you just said it yourself. What I am saying is, as things stand now, absolutely correct. With Current lore there is no lore basis for them to have diverged so drastically.
Now if they write -future- lore, then that supercedes older Lore, we know this. But as Lore stands now a High Elf, is a Blood Elf with blue eyes. (Usually).

Nah, Its always been Spring. One of its other epithets is"Land of Eternal Spring". It was never Autumn, though where that confusion may have arisen is that in an almost symbolic thing, there was Snow in the southern border areas, after Arthas had destroyed it, however the speculation is that this was more to do with Arthas, than a genuine change of seasons.
Which leads neatly to:

Blood Elves also live in Eternal Sunshine, whereas High Elves do not (Anymore).

Yeah but we -know- there were straightbacked Orcs already, I mean Thrall is obvious, but also in WoD. We have High Elf Lore, we have High Elf models as NPC’s, So why wouldn’t Blizzard use those assets?