oh okay then. she won BfA up until the point Unkie Saurfang came along to help li’l andy out.
varian sucked, but at least he never had to go cap in hand to orcs for help because the big mean zombie lady kept whupping him
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You’re drunk. Go sleep then come back. Then I am sure we shall have an enlightening (for you) debate.
… by which you mean you’ll continue to insist anduin is a genius in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and support your case with tortuous interpretations of the term “lost to”
i’ll pass
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Because he’s a genius. You realized it too. Better late than never.
so we’ve moved from over-interpreting words to outright making stuff up. enlightening indeed!
anduin is not a genius and sucks as a king and even as a character.
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Not needed
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We didn’t move from anywhere though, no one challenged my arguments successfully as of yet.
And please dude, you love Ragnaros, who was one of the most idiotic villains in fiction.
except all the people who have
i like to pretend the dark irons didn’t really abandon ragnarostianity like they said they had when they joined the alliance. i’m amused by the idea that goody two-shoes anduin and his bland, dull alliance “heroes” are accepting the aid of evil fire-worshipping maniacs.
even if i did really love ragnaros though i wouldn’t make unsupportable claims about his intelligence
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Yeah, so no one.
And yes dude, the dark irons have forsaken the cult of that ugly ball of fire and have pledged their loyalty to High King Wrynn.
your argument is refuted by andy’s actions in the story, which are inconsistent with genius, and in some cases even sapience.
numerous people have pointed this out to you. what the writers tell you about a character is less important than what the character actually does in universe, and andy fails repeatedly.
yes, of course they have. heaven forfend the dark irons should lie about something.
No he didnt that is just pure crap.
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Nope. Didn’t counter anything.
No he didnt that is just pure crap.
You know that he’s the one who tells Jaina and Shaw to free Baine, right?
throughout BfA he’s put his personal morals before the practicalities of command and at every step it’s cost him, making him predictable and tipping his hand to sylvanas, and yet he continues to do it. that’s not genius or precocious wisdom; it’s andy failing at war. what’s the old saying about doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results?
also i remember his stated objective in BoD was to capture rastakhan alive with minimal civilian casualties. his troops directly disobeyed him, killed the king, and slaughtered their way into and out of the city.
it can therefore be argued that anduin is a madman whose troops don’t respect him, but not that he’s a genius.
again, this is not new information to you
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Yeah, he continues to do it because that almost made him win the war in 8.2 (record for the quickest faction war) if not for Sylvanas’ gamble which nobody could anticipate, not even Lor’themar.
Also, welcome to any siege in history. Troops will always disobey the commander and slaughter civilians.
like i said before, alliance commanders doing exactly what the horde wants them to do is probably the only point of consistency in BfA’s narrative, and that’s doubly true for li’l andy. it’s not a gamble if you know what the outcome will be.
there’s a few ways we can come at this.
either andy honestly believed his soldiers would obey his order to take rastakhan alive and do as little damage as possible to dazaralor during the siege, and we can add “naive” to the growing list of li’l andy’s adjectives (and safely remove “genius”, since anyone qualified for that term would’ve seen the devastation coming a mile off)…
… or the alliance soldiers have so little respect for blanduin that they ditched any attempt to enact his plan when they faced resistance stiffer than they expected (resistance andy didn’t anticipate - “genius” no) and just kicked everything to pieces.
either way BoD was the closest andy’s come to success in BfA, and not only did it ultimately fail, it cost the lives of numerous alliance soldiers, horde civilians, and possibly mekkatorque. it’s also the second time he’s nearly gotten jaina killed since teldrassil.
also it was a stupid plan anyway considering it involved coercing the zandalari to surrender by taking their king hostage despite the fact they had another popular capable leader to step into the role and a load of horde soldiers occupying their capital.
honestly, the kid is a moron.
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Yep, and that strategy almost won them the war. Also yeah, it was a gamble. Nathanos and Theron could have died in that fall and the subsequent naga attack.
there’s a few ways we can come at this.
Nope, there’s only one way. You tell your ally to lead the siege of a city. Your ally then tells your troops to attack. You can try your best to stop them, your troops will still end up killing civilians, if not worse. That’s how sieges work.
I mean, such things happened under people like Alexander the Great. Are you going to tell me that he was naive?
Plus there were his most trusted commanders - Genn and Jaina!
The target should have been Talanji not Rastakhan if Alliance wanted Zanadalari split from Horde, but hey the plot is amazing.
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i know where this idea comes from, and it’s worth scratching it a bit.
the writers have been telling us through dialogue that the alliance is in the ascendancy throughout 8.1. the horde is exhausted, victory is a matter of time, yadda yadda. victory is there for the taking, right?
so why wasn’t it taken? if the horde really are as badly beaten as the higher-ups are suggesting, why didn’t the alliance finish them off?
because anduin sucks, that’s why.
let’s assume for the sake of argument that anduin’s not so predictable that sylvanas could bank on him chasing nathanos. the worst case scenario for sylvanas is the horde gets to nazjatar first and can set about whatever they have planned with no alliance there to interfere. the best case scenario is King-Boy sends his fleet after nathanos and they all end up krumped.
so, yeah. even if we accept that andy wasn’t guaranteed to pursue nathanos, sylvanas wins either way.
i’m no fan of sylvanas but she’s outplayed King-Boy pretty comprehensively thus far.
convincing unreliable allies (lorthemar, thalyssra) to risk their lives by imperilling a devoted underling who’s only too happy to risk his own life to sell a deception (nathanos) seems like something a genius might do, no?
meanwhile, sending your entire fleet into a trap on the off-chance you might kill or capture blightcaller is something a moron would do.
it was andy’s plan, and it was a stupid plan. you’re not getting him off the hook for it simply because he delegated responsibility to someone else.
and why didn’t anduin lead the thing himself? too young? too stupid?
of course they will.
another thing guaranteed to happen when you try to kidnap a famously proud king is he’ll put up a fight and probably force your snatch squad to kill him rather than be taken alive.
despite all this, anduin still thought his plan was a realistic one. he thought the alliance could storm dazaralor without wrecking up the place and could take rastakhan alive. the kid is a moron.
in fairness, so are the advisors who didn’t even try to talk him out of it, but still.
the same alexander the great who fended off several mutinies by the skin of his teeth and nearly died whilst storming a fortified city alone?
if this is he, then no, he wasn’t naive at all, and in many instances actually ordered his troops to fustigate hold-out towns and cities once they’d breached the defences (iirc the siege of tyre ended with the slaughter of anyone who hadn’t taken refuge in the temple). the fact he wasn’t naive is the reason he never came up with a plan as stupid as “storm the city without hurting anyone and capture the king alive”.
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i know where this idea comes from, and it’s worth scratching it a bit.
the writers have been telling us through dialogue that the alliance is in the ascendancy throughout 8.1. the horde is exhausted, victory is a matter of time, yadda yadda. victory is there for the taking, right?
so why wasn’t it taken? if the horde really are as badly beaten as the higher-ups are suggesting, why didn’t the alliance finish them off?
because anduin sucks, that’s why.
Because that means causing casualties amongst the Sylvanas-leaning Horde people. Better to play the long game, turn the people against Sylvanas through Saurfang and Baine, win without risking to commit mass murder, and have history remember you very well.
let’s assume for the sake of argument that anduin’s not so predictable that sylvanas could bank on him chasing nathanos. the worst case scenario for sylvanas is the horde gets to nazjatar first and can set about whatever they have planned with no alliance there to interfere. the best case scenario is King-Boy sends his fleet after nathanos and they all end up krumped.
so, yeah. even if we accept that andy wasn’t guaranteed to pursue nathanos, sylvanas wins either way.
i’m no fan of sylvanas but she’s outplayed King-Boy pretty comprehensively thus far.
Cool. Still a gamble, because Nathanos and Lor’themar almost died thanks to her brilliant plan. And obviously all the forces they brought with them.
Also, it wasn’t the entire Alliance fleet, it was only a fraction of the Kul Tiran fleet and then the Stormwind fleet which belongs to King Anduin.
it was andy’s plan, and it was a stupid plan. you’re not getting him off the hook for it simply because he delegated responsibility to someone else.
and why didn’t anduin lead the thing himself? too young? too stupid?
Maybe because he’s 19 years old, with no heir, and would have to engage in the second greatest siege battle of the war.
of course they will.
another thing guaranteed to happen when you try to kidnap a famously proud king is he’ll put up a fight and probably force your snatch squad to kill him rather than be taken alive.
despite all this, anduin still thought his plan was a realistic one. he thought the alliance could storm dazaralor without wrecking up the place and could take rastakhan alive. the kid is a moron.
in fairness, so are the advisors who didn’t even try to talk him out of it, but still.
Nope. What was guaranteed to happen was that the zandalari fleet would be in ruins. Which it was. Ensuring a great historical triumph for the Alliance.
the same alexander the great who fended off several mutinies by the skin of his teeth and nearly died whilst storming a fortified city alone?
if this is he, then no, he wasn’t naive at all, and in many instances actually ordered his troops to fustigate hold-out towns and cities once they’d breached the defences (iirc the siege of tyre ended with the slaughter of anyone who hadn’t taken refuge in the temple). the fact he wasn’t naive is the reason he never came up with a plan as stupid as “storm the city without hurting anyone and capture the king alive”.
Yep, the same Alexander the Great who led sieges where a lot of civilians got killed.
Actually when faced with the choice of annihilating his enemies in one swift strike and holding his hand due to ideological reasons and he chose the later that is the sign that he is indeed… Not… A genius. Due to his inaction, now many more than would have died there are likely to die since he is forced to keep up the fight until his plan of a revolution starting in the Horde comes to fruition.
History is written by the victors, read up on some military history, there are several accounts where the enemy is accused of doing very bad stuff but later evidence shows that it may actually have been the winner who framed the loser of the war for it. This kinda stuff goes as far back as war exists.
Instead Anduin decides to sit around, creating more children with lost parents and strain the economy by calling farmers and others into fight.