Baine and Proudmoore's Cinematic (spoilers)

(Garrou) #381

Is that what I said? What made Nathanos ‘OP’ in that instance?
Brynja died and the player and the others had to turn tail and run.

So elaborate please? Or is this just a case of certain(Alliance characters) are okay being “Goku” but when a Horde character is able to not get blown away instantly…oh noooo! Ruins your…immersion?



No, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that by claiming I’m into DBZ tropes, it meant that the Alliance had OP characters, so it was fair to power up Horde characters to match them, which is an idea which I dislike.

(Garrou) #383

No, I just thought the intro trailer was cheeeesy as hell.
I think we’re actually in full agreement when it comes to “over the top” characters ruining a story
That said…if they would put the Horde champions on a similar level(yawn) it would cancel out, but it wouldn’t do anything really interresting for the story either, I don’t think so anyway.

(Huopoh) #384

Yes, I was talking about what the PC does. The cowering sunreavers are props and not an objective for any quest.

Point was that they attack the PC if they gets close. They have a reason to, but they do. The PC doesnt fight any mobs that are marked neutral.
And Jaina does smack em around with fireballs to subdue them before teleporting them, so in that way I agree that Kosak’s statement was simplified. But she still canonically doesn’t kill them, which I suppose is something we wont agree on.

(Elenthas) #385

…no, she kills them. She doesn’t teleport the corpses/“incapacitated bodies”.

She teleports some, and slaughters others.

(Minairia) #386

Actually, I just recently did those quests and she did fireball, fireball, teleport.

I also watched Nobbel’s video from 2013 as well and she does the exact same thing. Fix or not, what we see in-game is current and it’s actually the Quel’dorei who do more of the killing, as per the Mage dangling the Sunreaver Agent over the shark.

We can’t take fixes into account any longer, because many other instances for many other characters have also received this. An example being Tyrande, when she kills the Forsaken at Ashwood Depot.


You were talking about Theramore encircling his army. You do not metion what army or when/where, making it unsubstantiated.

It most definetly was.

Why? I never claimed anything like that.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The Council is not absent at all times, and the Peacekeepers are present in the city. What, do you think Jaina, upon discovering the betrayal, asked the Whole council to leave and then dismissed all the peacekeepers, while Aethas in the meantime occupied the citdadel before she teleported in rather than just walk, all in between her teleporting from Darnassus to Dalaran? What scenario are you proposing here?

Better question: If they are all absent, why did Aethas come there?

They did not start threatening the Sunreavers With military action until after Aethas was arrested. He has never been shown to keep guards around him before.

Jaina gave them legal power to do so and the rest of the Council accepted that descision. ALso, if there were no guards there, all the more reason for her to take matter in her own hands.

So being a Citizen of Dalaran means one cannot be a mercenary. Also, I never claimed they were Mercenaries, I only used a analogy With Mercenaries.

Prove it. Both that the police force had vansihed, and that he brought the guards along for that reason. Also, explain why any of this matters.

No, she worked with the Alliance to ensure ensure the Divine Bell would not be used. She did not grant them any weapons. This was an accepted action by the Kirin Tor. The Sunreavers went against the Kirin Tor’s descision. Also, you have yet to prove she murdered anyone.

So, if a police officer kills a domestic terrorist, he has commited murder?

Ok. What does that have to do with anything?

You have yet to prove this. Said “political affiliation” had just commited treason, the higher-ups had done nothing to stop it, and were now occupying the state Office With armed guards for unknown reasons. Quite a lot you left out.

I have told you many times alread. Self-defense.

No. That is not the definition of murder.

Sure, but that does not matter. What matters is that his actions were suspicious. I have every right to grab a bag, og out and throw it at someone and then run away. It will still look like I am throwing a bomb, and people would be excused to commit violence against me.

Said guards could easily have killed her if they wanted. Reasonable force only Applied if the person is in a state of mind in which they can reasonably evaluate the amount of force needed. Having fice people point weapons at you which could fire magical projectiles at any moment is good enough reason to use lethal force.

No, that in no way “legcally makes it malicious”". There is no such legal proceeding. If I had a gun and a guy came at me With a knife, and I shot him in the head due to panic, when I could have disabled him With a show to the knee, I have not commited a malicious act. And even if it were “legally malicious”, that does not mean it acutally was malicous. You have to prove that the act of killing when you can refrain from doing so, under all circumstances, rewrites the killer’s intent to being malicious, as that is what Your claim implies.

Again, what matters is what she believed at the time and how reasonable it was. If the guy running at me with a knife was revealed to simply be playing a prank, I would still get off because I had good reason to think my life was in danger, kind of like what Jaina did when she teleported into her office to find it occupied with private guards of a faction that recently commited treason pointing weapons at her.

Again, strange that he has never done so before and went there while there was no council meeting. Why even go? Besdies, the hatred between the two Groups were not that strong until after the Purge, and they had been shown to work together well under Jaina. There was never a mention of anyone being in danger, and even if there were, I doubt the SC would target a Council member. Besides that you have to prove that is why he went there With guards, and that Jaina had better reason to think this than him being a traitor laying trap for her in order to prove it murder.

Wait, people that are supposed to fight you show up into the Citadel unannounced and Jaina is wrong for thinking they are a threath?

I would consider pointing weapons at someone to be pretty hostile.

Self-defense also covers situations in which you have good reason to think you will be attacked.

Again, no. If you have good reason to believe you will be attacked, like Jaina did, your actions will be considered self-defense.

This is completely unfounded. It does not matter where you are. If someone makes threatening gestures at you, giving you valid reason to think an attack is coming, you are free to defend yourself. Where did you even get this principle from? These mental gymnastics of yours are getting tiresome.

That is exactly how the Law Works. You seem remarkably ingorant of the Law. Maybe you should look it up up before spouting ignorance.

I’d call the Police, personally. I wouldn’t kick the door in and start screaming at them. I’d call the Police. Why didn’t she?

Perhaps you did not udnerstand the scenario. They are poiting guns at YOU! You do not have time to Call the police.

Of Course Jaina gave the orders!

Of course she did! Who needs conclusive evidence or citations when you can just say OF COURSE? Anyone who denies it is a fool! Come on man. She is never referred to as giving orders to Hawthorne. He distinctly claims he is accountable to Alliance High Command.

Is this seriously how you think Law works? She tried to kill a city full of civilians, but because she failed it is somehow OK? Is that honestly how you think it works?

We were not talking about the Law, but what you have to hold against her.

(Aerilen) #388

Probably never because it’s one of the genuine morally gray events to happen in WoW buddy.

(Lyonidus) #389

Wait, I thought it was the 67th time and not 69th.

(Brigante) #390

Throws his hands in the air in despair

Yes, you’re right Sereluna, whatever the Alliance does is always justified, and beyond question, it is inconceivable that any member of the Alliance, even under duress could do such things, and it is only murder when Alliance are killed. This is clear to me now, despite the depictions in game. The Alliance is -always- right. -Always-, there is no room for manoeuvre here because it is always justified by something else done previously, and morally grey is a meme to beat the Horde player base around the head with…


As someone who has actually worked in Law Enforcement, I -Do- know how it works, which is why I know that you are wrong.

However by all means, Alliance shining good that can do no wrong, Please, crack on with your unique headcanon. You are 100% incorrect, however I don’t think that matters to you at this point, does it?


I never said anything like this, and the fact that this is the manner in which you interprit what I said, it only proves you have no real argument against me. Is it really that hard for you to even consider the possibility that you are just being biased and unwilling to admit this was not murder, with you just refusing to admit so because you do not want it so?

The fact that you respond to me with these accusations of things I never claimed, only proves you do not have an argument, and that I have beaten you. I literally attrbiuted a crime to Jaina that you had not even thought of, so I have proven you wrong on that front.

You could not even muster up a response to my analogy about entering your office to find people pointing guns at you, showing you have no real response to situations similar to Jaina’s and that you attribute murder to her case slectively, further confirming this is just your bias speaking.

Funny how each time we have this argument, you are always the one to buckle, while I always keep presenting logically sound arguments while holding you accountable to your claims. It is almost like you have no real case that can hold up to scrutiny.

I am guessing “worked” is due to you being fired because you have no idea how Law enforcement actually works. Cute story though. Very believable.

So, to summarize. You have failed to provide evidence that Jaina acted With malicious intent. Failed to prove she had good reason to believe Aethas was on innocent business in the Violet Hold. Failed to prove she did not have good reason to believe she was in danger. Failed to prove that the situation did not call fo self-defense. Failed to prove Jaina was in a state of mind to reasonably adjust her action, making it so they cannot fall under voluntary manslaugther.

In conclusion, what Jaina did was not murder, as I have proven, and you lost the argument due to running out of excuses. Though I bet that you, even knowing your claim does not hold up to scrutiny, will keep claiming it, further illustrating this “Jaina commited murder” is just your headcanon you deploy every time someone reminds you of the Horde War Crimes so you can say “What about the Alliance?!”

(Brigante) #392

Sighs I have. You just won’t listen.

That very important to you, isn’t it? ‘Beating’ people? I wonder why. Anyway, you did not attribute a crime to Jaina that I had not thought of. I just thought attempted Genocide was rather a bigger deal…

And as previously stated, and yet again ignored by you, it is Aethas’ office as well. He’s not doing anything wrong.

I think you are confusing ‘buckle’ with ‘get sarcastically exasperated by your inability to consider any other viewpoint than that whatever it is the Alliance did, it was right’ There is a large difference between the two.

Given that you have yet to provide a single logically sound argument, I think this is a bold claim to make…

Actually you would be incorrect entirely. It was a high stress, high turnover career, one in which I actually served longer than the average, until our department suffered mass redundancies after a Cost-cutting exercise.

Except I have proved that she did.

Except the Onus is on you to prove he was up to no good, which you failed to do.

She ran in, and started zapping people. At that point I would say she was in danger, however it was a danger of her own devising by starting to murder people.

Actually, I did, several times, you just weren’t listening, and still are not. Jaina -attacked- people who were not behaving in a hostile manner, albeit who were being defensive. Ergo that is what we call -aggressive- behaviour. Not Self Defence.

So let me just understand this correctly. When Jaina loses her temper and murders people, it is suddenly not murder?

Except it was.

Except you have not.

Actually I was more getting exasperated, you were rapidly approaching the pigeon and chessboard metaphor.

You seem to have this bizarre idea that I am trying to in some way exonerate the War Crimes the Horde has carried out, by pointing out the ones the Alliance has? I have at no point stated or even slightly implied that. Are you actually reading what anybody else says, or just ranting.

The Horde has done a lot, I mean a -Lot- of very evil things. I main Horde, and I can accept that. Why is it so hard for some Alliance fans to accept the bad things the Alliance has also done? Accepting that one side has done bad, does not mean the other side only does good. That’s a bit kids cartoon morality…


I like how you intended to stop arguing, but I managed to rile you up again with my response.

Then why do you need to misrepresent what I said? You are only arguing against a strawman.

No, not really, I am just very good at it.

Yes I did, she enslaved water elementals.

I never said it was not his office, nor did I say it was exclusively Jaina’s. My argument never relied on him doing anything illegal, only that he wacted in a manner that made him seem involved in something illegal.

I think you confuse “getting sarcastically exasperated” with your inability to consider any other viewpoint than that whatever makes the Alliance look bad. Like how I never stated the Alliance did nothing wrong, yet you claim I did. See this, I can actually point to instances of you being unreasonable and dishonest. You cannot.

All my arguments are above, and you have failed to refute any of them. Again, you gave up, remember? All my arguments from above still stand and they are all sound, not that someone as biased as you would realize, as you reject anything that does not conform to your narrow view of attributing the Alliance crimes they never commited.

Good idea cutting the person who had no idea about how the law works. Guess you were not that useful.

No, you have repeatedly claimed that she did and made various goalpost-shifting excuses for why, without actually proving what Jaina was thinking at the time, which is what you needed to provide. Again, it is all there above, and you failed to refute the arguments.

No. I never claimed he was up to no good. I only claimed what he did gave Jaina good reason to think he was up to no good. You are trying to shift the goal-post. See, this is why I am more trustworthy than you when it comes to analyzing the logical coherence of arguments. I never made the claim you accused me of making, and you commited a fallacy while at it. It further proves your bias as you assume that I hold a position I do not in order to make your case. But thanks for proving me right.

Also, the onus is still on you to prove Jaina has good reason to believe he was there on innocent business, meaning she killed the Sunreaver guards knowing they were not going to attack her, which you have not.

Again, she knew nothing of Aethas intentions, and found herself at odds With armed guards poiting weapons at her. You must prove Aethas was on innocet business, and that Jaina knew this. Else, she had every reason to think her life was in danger. This is a completely logical argument. You are again trying to move the goalpost by switching the argument from her “having good reason to believe she was in danger” to “actually being in danger”, which again, is illogical and dishonest as self-defense is when you have good reason to think yourelf in danger.

Occupying a state office with your own private guards, something never done before, without giving good reason, after you let your own people smuggle a dangerous weapon, ordering Your guards to point weapons at the first person to enter does not seem hostile to you? Do you not see the mental gymanstics you have to perform to make your case? This is embarassing.

That is literally how voluntary manslaugther works! I thought you worked in Law-enforcement!

Once you actually provide a shred of evidence.

Hey, I do not care how much you defecate on the board, I am having fun with you.

Can I get an “Oof”?

Why is it so hard for you to accept that I do not hold this view? Accepting that Jaian did not commit a heineous crime does not means the Alliance does not do bad Things.

(Brigante) #394

So you admit then, you are arguing for arguments sake?

Hmm, not sure that term means what you think it does, that website about argument fallacies has a lot to answer for, when half of its definitions are incorrect…

Gotcha, so it is about ‘beating’ people in an argument. Good to know what level we’re working at here then. By the way, you are rather famed for -not- being good at it, so you may need to rethink that line, make it something a bit punchier and more accurate like “I Will never give up even when wrong!”

So you agree then, that shooting his guards was a bit of a wild overreaction to that scenario you just stated?

You attempt, at every juncture, to ameliorate the crimes the Alliance carry out, yet always insist those carried out by the Horde, in some cases the exact same thing, are somehow to be regarded with utmost severity. This latest attempt is priceless. “Jaina gets in a temper=Not Murder”

That is an example of you being dishonest. You keep citing ‘Voluntary Manslaughter’ Whilst not actually understanding what the term means in Law.

Or rather, you cite only the parts that make it sound like Jaina is not a Murderer…

Let me list the criteria for you, as you seem confused.

If adequate provocation is established, a murder charge may be reduced to voluntary manslaughter. Generally there are four conditions that must be fulfilled to warrant the reduction: (1) the provocation must cause rage or fear in a reasonable person; (2) the defendant must have actually been provoked; (3) there should not be a time period between the provocation and the killing within which a reasonable person would cool off; and (4) the defendant should not have cooled off during that period.

Of those, only (1) applies. The Action causes Rage. (2) she was not personally involved and therefore not legally provoked. (3) There was a time period between any perceived provocation and the murders. (4) She had ample time to do so.

It. Was. Murder.

Umm, pretty sure all the things I have stated both Horde and Alliance have done, have…well, been done…in game or in canon novel, can you give me an example otherwise?

WoW Personal insults. You stay Classy now, you’re sure looking all grown up!
Amazing how there was an entire three story building full of people who didn’t know how the Law worked after all those years. Maybe they should have got you in, instead, you clearly know how it works better than
Lawyers, Police Officers, bailiffs and ex High Court Judges.

Err…No…That’s definitely not how it works. The onus is not on the attacked party to prove their innocence.

Walking into your own Office, with a newly appointed security detail, as for reasons best known to herself, the head of the Council you are part of has sent all of the Peacekeepers away and drafted in Alliance troops, and the next door neighbours are a Paramilitary organisation that would quite happily see you dead, but you go about your day with no suspicion that things are about to go wrong?

It is. I’d quit whilst you’re behind…

Ahem. I refer you to the legal definition of Voluntary Manslaughter. as I listed above.

So why is it so hard to accept that Jaina is one of those people? I mean she did some dreadful stuff. She had reason, but she still did some dreadful stuff, stuff that in our legal code, would -not- count as Voluntary Manslaughter, but Murder.



You assign me beliefs that I do not hold. That is the definition of a strawman. Better look up whatever that site is.

Shh. It is okay little one. No need to feel embarassed and make excuses. I will not hold your inadequacy against you.

No, again, everything he did made it look like a trap. Come to think of it, it was never explicitly confirmed that it was not a trap! Aethas may very well have planned to ambush her, but it failed because she struck first and the Sunreavers decided to give up! I never thought of that! He may not even have been there on innocent business after all.

No. No I do not. I have repeatedly accepted actual crimes commited by the Alliance.

Actually, 2 applies as Jaina was provoked by the treachey and the guards occupying the state office for unknown reasons and pointing weapons at her. 3 applies as the killings took place over a few second after the provocation and 4 applies because she did not calm down.

So thank you, you just proved it would fall under voluntary manslaugther! The excuses you made were complete bull. You own definition proved you wrong! How does that feel? This is what I am talking about. I can logically analyze my arguments and confirm they are correct. You failed to do that here, and proved me right.

Jaina commiting murder, which you disproved above.

Soon I will look as mature as the guy who rants about me not being able to Accept the Alliance doing things wrong whenever he cannot think of an argument.

If you occupy a state office with your own guards while not on offical business and pointing weapons at People who come in, you have a lot to answer for. Again, thought you worked in Law Enforcement.

that is not part of the office’s security whom you order to point weapons at the other office members. My, how perfectly innocent!

Strange how you claim this, but never post a citation. It is almost like gasp you need to make Things up to create this narrative of Jaina being a murderer. Now tell me, if Jaina is a murderer, why do you need to make things up to prove it?

As a result of you ignoring treason and occupying said office.

Yes, thanks for that again!

So why is it so hard to accept Jaina is not one of those People? I mean, she did some completely acceptable stuff. She had good reason, and acted according to those reason like anyone would have, which in our legal code, would not count as murder, but acceptable self-defense.

I am sitting here and laughing, because there is one argument you could make that would completely ruin my case, yet you are unable to grasp it, even after repeating yourself so many times and after I gave you a massive clue, while I see it clear as say.

(Minairia) #396

Unleashing the Silver Covenant who were never Sunreaver fanboys anyway was not completely acceptable nor wise.

The Silver Covenant are the causes on why things turned really ugly.

It should have been a solid, Kirin Tor issue and only Magi - Human, High Elf, Night Elf, Gnome etc who were of the Kirin Tor, should have been involved and placed the Sunreaver Citizens under house arrest


I was talking about reacting to being confronted with armed sunreavers, and killing some in response.

(Brigante) #398

Sereluna, it is quite apparent you are not going to listen to any argument that does not fit your dialogue, call it a victory if you like, I call it you managing to shut down yet another thread because you don’t like the implications. You have an unpleasant habit of doing this, in future, could you try to be more civil, and not do this? But sure, call this a victory, put out some bunting. Yay. Go You.

(Aerilen) #399

I am going to repeat an earlier post which was largely skimmed over.

Jaina was right in acting but (even as she later admitted) she went about it the wrong way. Aethas should have been arrested, he knew what was going on. He gambled on Jaina being soft like she historically has been in comparison to Garrosh who had just, well, made trolls second rate citizens. However. Where Jaina went wrong is using the Silver Covenant; a group that has been incredibly hostile to Blood Elves.

The Silver Covenant murdered and mugged their way through the Sunreaver populace, while Jaina doesn’t have blood on her hands directly. She has it indirectly.

Not to mention that, if we go by modern day ethics, the entire dispossession and jailing of a populace over the crimes of a few is beyond criminal. It was inevitable that Sunreavers would take up arms and resist, if the council of your city used its force to forcibly remove and jail a section of its populace. Do you genuinely believe everyone would go 100% quietly?

It’s what makes Dalaran gray, it was a cache 22 situation for Jaina and Aethas. Both characters made dumb decisions that had far reaching repercussions that continues to contribute to animosity between the factions.


It would be genocide if their goal would be to wipe out goblins because they are goblins. While morally dark yes, it is not genocide. They merely tried to kill one ship full of goblins not an entire nation or race