Baine and Proudmoore's Cinematic (spoilers)

Lore Story
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Yep she does. She makes a barrier of ice (Iceblock) around herself and then flees with a teleport.

She doesn’t become immune to damage. Quite contrary, you can damage the ice (but the health of it is so massive you’ll never realistically burn through it).

Again, be precise about your claims.

Are you sure you want to go down that route?

Using a bomb on a valid military target =/= war crime.

Not to mention that if you WANT to go down that route, Jaina has in fact committed several warcrimes (by Alliance’s own definition as per war crimes) by the definition.

Anyway it has nothing to do with the point being made but I’m just telling you if you want to make a warcrime argument thread I will 100% win because I can channel the powers of Telaryn from Argent Dawn who is a huge nerd on Warcrimes and I can list on paper every single Warcrime that the Alliance, yes, even Anduin, is responsible of, in BFA and other expansions.

Accepting your own fault is how therapy often works.

Hey, I wasn’t the one who was claiming that all the followers are some badasses, you did.

But again, it was easy enough to prove you wrong. And yes, Demons are still trogg tier villains.

You claim she’s a good character yet her character’s current presence in the game is an antithesis for good writing and continuity of the story- Therefore, she can’t be a good character.

This isn’t a minor plothole you can dance around. It’s breaking, and as a result she’s a bad character.

That was easy.

Did you forget about the time when she was ready to flood Orgrimmar? She definitely has the power to level cities, as per the books.

If you’re going to call out hyperboles & other stuff you need to be consistent about them. But again, there’s only so many black eyes your character can have from fights lol.

No you haven’t, you’ve failed on every single moment and I’ve stripped apart your posts very easily, because again, your arguments are as stable as a jello on a plate.

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No, she doesn’t. She iceblocks if you hero. Which is a completely different visual. It’s not an iceblock.

Using a bomb on civilians, children, and women, after actively trying to maximise kill count, is a war crime, yes.
And go on, I look forward to the pathetic display.

No, its accepting it wasn’t your fault and that you weren’t responsible for what happened. Jaina was convinced she had done something wrong and that her own actions were what resulted in all of the various tragedies happening. She even says it in her own ruddy dialogue.

Oh yes, so easy, you provided zero evidence and stated a view you have been stating since the very start of the thread.
You’re delusional. These aren’t arguments. They’re temper tantrums.

With. The. Focusing. Iris.
You dumbass.

Again, no argument to counter my points.
You’re all talk.

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Which I elaborated in my post so you’re again arguing against yourself, it seems.

Evacuated by that time.

Like the night elf resistance on Darkshore lol?

Look at that, looks like she’s not clear in the head after all. It’s almost like she’s consistent with her inconsistent character, ha ha.

You just agreed that her powercreep is ridiculous by feinting the argument to me- Which means you agree she breaks the game, as per the irrefutable logic.

Again, you played yourself, not me.

You didn’t mention that the criteria had to be with an item. I pointed out she can/could do it.

That’s still true. It’s not my fault you can’t articulate your points across.

Too easy.

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My god, you are an actual, bona fide idiot.

No, you’ve never elaborated on it. You’ve repeated the same ineffectual statement. Each. Time.

So? No measures were taken by Garrosh to avoid casualties.

So, rather than carry through with your bravado, you fall back on more posturing. Do you have any other gymnastics you can do, or it just the one?

And your point is what? Jaina believed she could’ve stopped her father, could have stopped Arthas, could have saved Theramore, when those events, and their endings, was out of her power. Her time in Drustvar was centered around demolishing that perception and properly coming to terms with what happened, accepting they weren’t her doing.
Consistency, right there.

I didn’t, because you never made an argument in the first place. You have no counterpoint. You are the one feinting. You are the one repeating hollow trite.

Considering we’re going by your own criteria, this is laughable.

To do what? Prove your ineptitude?
I mean, you really don’t need to try to do that, its pretty clear.

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Ok, but I have a question for you.

When does Jaina’s power get too much?

She pretty much has the power to solo the entire Horde at this point, she single-handedly broke the siege of Undercity, cleared an entire zone of the blight in a single spell that took her 3 seconds to cast, summoned the Kul Tiran navy in like 5 seconds, survived being a raid boss with basically no wounds since they’re only mentioned in a single conversation after the raid.

When does it get too much?
Why doesn’t she just go to Orgrimmar, kill Sylvanas and end the war.
It makes no sense, she needs to get nerfed otherwise questions like these will always pop up when Jaina is involved in the story.

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Doesn’t matter. Implied warcrime =/= warcrime.

Ok here we go

Anduin is guilty of warcrime by promoting necromancy. As per Alliance’s own admission in warcrimes, the leader is fully responsible for the crimes of their subordinates- Which, Halford Wyrmbane and comrade Umbric are more than happy to do.

Anduin is also guilty of genocide (lost isles, because, as per Alliance’s own admission, Garrosh was also responsible for crimes that happened in the past to which he had no part of, and more recently with dark iron murdering goblin miners (mind you, not fighters, civilians) in Zuldazar.

He’s also guilty of slavery (pandaria, Brawler’s guild, Kul-Tirans), as per the same rules, murdering prisoners of war (kul-tiras & pandaria).

Those are just for starters, but Alliance also started the war (Stormheim + Silithus) and are as a faction responsible for the same crimes as their leader- As per their own agreement, in war crimes.

None of those points had anything to do with the argument but ok.

Only that if she’s over them she brings up that trauma once more a minute later and also her people magically forgive her after 1 thing.

Yeah you did, you can’t backtrack now.

Yeah it is laughable how you keep faceplanting time and time again.

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Nope, Jaina is still targetable and hittable, throughout the whole thing.

It’s not implied anywhere, it’s carried out fully. That’s not implied, you numbskull.

Necromancy is very different from briefly giving the Void a vessel. One is forcefully returning a soul, or placing a soul, into a body to bring it into undeath. The other is using an empty husk as a channel for the Void.
So, first one down.

The majority of this is just nonsense jargon without evidence to support it, so its meaningless; as for the goblins, they were mining azerite to provide the Horde for the war, and therefore a valid target; that’s not murder, and not genocide anyway, because it wasn’t ‘just cos they’re goblins’. Besides, they were working alongside defence mechs, which doesn’t really fit that whole civilian image you’re trying to conjure.

Pffft. Are you serious? What slaves in Pandaria? Only race there to practice it were the Mogu, who nobody allied with, the Brawler’s Guild is an underground operation acting outside of the Alliance, and Ashvane was the one responsible for the slaves, not Kul Tiras. Her activities were completely hidden from the rest of the nation; and that’s not even bringing up the fact that they weren’t even Alliance allied at that point to begin with.

Again, wrong. Sylvanas was responsible long before Stormheim thanks to attacking Gilneas in the first place; unprovoked. There was no official cease fire or treaty between the two, and the small one between the Alliance and Horde was violated long before Legion, during Warlords.
Neither did they initiate hostilities in Silithus; that is a bald faced lie.

Considering your entire argument is built upon her being inconsistent, it has everything to do with the argument. Thank you for conceding.

In no sense did I ever agree with you. I’d love to see your working on how that happened. I think you’ll find it quite impossible.

Oh yay. What a great counterpoint. I’ve never seen this one before.
Even an ant isn’t as predictable as you.

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Uh…it was an argument, and in no way rude. There have been no official records of the military power of the Argent Crusade, so anything you say is about it comes from your imagination alone. To Call me poiting that out rude, is in itself rude.

I did. No mention of their military prowess or the idea that they could not be a threath to the Horde. Since it is not official lore, you must have gotten that idea from somewhere else. It is almost like a…uh…headcanon.

Their interest is to save Azeroth and preserve lives, which they would best accomplish by joining the Alliance.

That is for gameplay purposes. The portal leads to the Worlk Version of Dalaran.

“Some of their members” are busy doing that. Cenarius is nowhere near the sword. Do you honestly think the Cenarion Circle would sit back and let the Horde commit genocide against their own flesh and blood?

More headcanon.

Uuuuuh? Attack the Horde? What else have I been talking about?

Again, you have no facts to back up your subjective wish of their military strength.

Like, do you honestly think, under reasonable circumstances in which the people of Azeroth actually acted in a manner befitting their characterization, the neutral factions mentioned would just brush of the genocide of a sovereign nation? Like, do you not think it is in their best inetrest to end the war quickly, so they can focus more on healing Azeroth, by taking down the superpower that is currently slaugthering countless civilians by banding together with the world’s other superpower? In any case, Sylvanas should have expected them to turn on her.

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You Alliance players are really full of yourself. Aiding the political interests of the Alliance and supporting them aiming at world domination is now life preserving? wow

No, facts. To the Ashbringer intro of the Paladin order hall. They are done for.

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Considering the Horde started the Blood War, and actively mines azerite to fuel their warmongering, yes, the Alliance is more interested in preserving life.
And where the hell did you get the idea they were aiming for world domination?

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No, for once Sereluna is right. On this at least. The Argents are very much a thing, active, and separate from the Silver Hand. The Ebon invasion of Light’s Hope along with Tyrosus proves this. Yes, they lost a great many but not all of their troops on the broken shore, their force projection is not what it used to be, but they’re still around.

Not to mention all their civvies in Hearthglen/Light’s Hope. And the Brotherhood of the Light.

Edit: Forsaken Argent Mages are in the Orgrimmar portal room, so these are new argent mobs being added in BfA.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403372975417589770/555519635051642914/unknown.png

Alliance were about to go to war, Horde got there like a day ahead of 'em. So…cool.

Anduin says in the very first meeting about azerite that they will research weaponry for it in before the storm.

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And this means what? The Alliance still isn’t the ones digging the stuff up out of the ground wherever they can find it.

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What do you think island expeditions are?

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Tysorus tells you they need all other Paladin orders to help them out because they lost most of their fire power on the broken shore.

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Pretty sure IEs aren’t canon

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They have so much juicy lore stuff. They would be wasted if they ain’t canon.

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Yes, which is quite reasonable against the Legion.

That doesn’t mean that the Argents are gone as an organisation, nor are they without forces. We rescue some of them on the Broken Shore, so clearly there’s still some guys. And we never saw the Brotherhood of the Light.

I’m not saying they’re a powerhouse, but they’re still an independent military force that occupies the plaguelands. They’re not part of the SIlver Hand, and the argent mages confirms this into BfA.

You would be wrong. Quests are canon, and blizz has explicitly said that the many plot threads from the IE quest drops are potential stories they may explore in the future, such as the Wrathion one.

There’s also world quests, like https://www.wowhead.com/quest=52120/gnomish-azerite-extraction which explicitly uses an azerite extractor.

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Could say the exact same back at you about Mission Table quests.

That doesn’t mean the quests are canon, just that they are teasers for things they might do.

World Quests have been of questionable canonicity for a very long time now.

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https://www.wowhead.com/quest=53061/the-azerite-advantage

<name>, we have received intelligence pointing us toward a reliable source of Azerite. We must acquire this precious resource before our enemies in the Horde. Report to the Wind’s Redemption as soon as possible to aid in extraction.

Also I dunno where you get the idea that WQ have questionable canonicity from? They’re quests. Repeatable, yes, but still.

What other awkward things are you going to say aren’t canon because they prove you wrong?

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The initial quest? Yeah, sure. But at that point they’re no longer referred to in the story, have no story relevance, and so on and so forth.
As for world quests, the reason for the questionable canonicity is the fact they have some absurd chronology, contradict previous quests and sometimes outright revert progress made in prior quests.
And I think, if you take a look around, there’s more people than just me disagreeing on whether they are or aren’t canon, for various reasons.
Now, if I was being a hypocrite, then we could talk about me denying canon due to it being otherwise awkward.