Also weird why the dwarves in BfS yell death to the Alliance… but thats canon now.
You’d doing the work for you my dude.
Mr Red Shirt Guy became famous specifically because of that so it wouldn’t be the first time.
So, wait, if people act in self-defense when being hunted down they’re not civilians anymore? Really?
Jaina attacks cowering civilians. That is in game.
You actively hunt people who’re not fighting - one of which was just withdrawing his money from the bank as part of the quests, and shockingly they defend themselves.
Kosak’s summary was reductionist and is not reflected by the in-game actions or quests.
Is Fandral dead or alive during BC? 
I mean, this is Kosak we are talking about.
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‘Comparitively small’? They had invaded the Barrens and pushed all the way up to Stonetalon.
Theramore was justified by Military necessity. The Civilians had been evacuated -because- Baine sent word that something wicked was coming. Now Garrosh didn’t care, he would have happily killed everyone, military and civilian if they got in the way. But he didn’t, because the Civilians were evacuated. If we’re going to prosecute people for what they might have done but didn’t, or tried to do but failed, then whew, that’s Jaina in the dock…
Just saying “This never happened” doesn’t make it go away, it hasn’t been debunked.
‘Occupying’ What, you mean they were doing their jobs as Aethas’ bodyguards, and Aethas was in a location that as a member of the Council of Six he had every right to be? Who says they were not supposed to be there?
Yes, and casting magic I’m fairly sure is a conscious act, therefore requires intent. Her intent was to kill. How much more malicious do you need?
Except she doesn’t have that. She doesn’t have good reason. That’s like holding Humanity responsible for Garithos. In fact as it turns out she was -wrong- in her assumption, not only did Aethas not order it, but his guards certainly did not know, so she did murder people basically doing their job, in their rightful employ, in a location they were allowed to be in, because ‘she had a hunch’. I know some of the Alliance fanbase screech whenever it is implied the Alliance can do wrong, but that is next level stuff. She killed people about their lawful business based on what she thought (Incorrectly) had happened.
Something of a mantra that. Well, Perhaps they didn’t build it, but they seized the Gold Road, and most certainly displaced population that threatened their control and militarisation of it, I mean there are whole quests revolving around that fact. I mean as much as it is a dead horse that needs no more flogging, even despite General Hawethornes (A Theramore officer) humanitarian efforts, Camp Taurajo was a textbook example of ‘Forced Relocation of Population’ Who is his boss again? Why yes. Jaina.
Well that’s my point. Is it or isn’t it? If it is, then both are guilty, if it is not, then neither are. You can’t apply different rules. Or rather you can, if you conclusively win (As our real world history shows). Either Both Garrosh and Jaina are guilty, or Neither is.
I’ll give you that, as it is almost certain, massively certain, that children died at Teldrassil. I more meant you never actually get a quest as the Horde character to kill children, whereas you do on the Alliance side.
Errmm, I actually did those quests on Alliance side recently. The cowering Sunreaver citizens? Yeah, you can’t aggro them. They won’t attack you, you have to consciously hack them down.
The thing is, Jaina is walking around, doing a leisurely orbit of Dalaran, and on the open streets she can see the Silver Covenant Paramilitary that -she- set loose (People with no power of arrest, that would have been Dalaran Peacekeepers) killing unarmed civilians, and she does -nothing- to stop it. She sees all the murder (The Torture she probably didn’t, that was in the sewers) of innocent people, all based on ‘Jaina knows best’ and doesn’t bat an eyelid.
That’s…actually worse than Garrosh, thinking about it, at least he had some passion behind his hatred, she just sets a Krystallnacht scenario in motion and strolls around watching, listening to the screams, all the while without any legal proof of her suspicions, perfectly happy to watch a paramilitary group she set loose butcher people, just because she knows best.
Worst of it is?
She was wrong. The people she killed, the civilians killed by Vereesa’s murder squads? All innocent. Even Aethas was innocent of the actual offence of using Kirin Tor assets to aid one Faction over the other. Unlike a certain other person who was happy to use Kirin Tor assets to aid one Faction over the other in warding the Bell in Darnassus in the first place, That would be…oh, wait, that was Jaina. Its not like she doesn’t have a track record for abusing Kirin Tor Neutrality to aid the Alliance. Remind me who it was who asked the Kirin Tor to aid the Alliance against the Horde invasion of Theramore again? Oh yeah. Jaina.
I think it is the hypocrisy of the character as well as their inconsistency of writing that annoys people.
She needs one writer, to keep her character going in whatever direction they decide for her, and for the love of the Gods that writer needs not to be Christie Golden, else who knows what Jaina ex Machina we will see next…
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It is just like everything else in WoW, it evolves around gameplay. Having a character which could basically solo anything and everything would make the story pointless.
There has been plenty of times where powerful people have just been placed in that kind of way, using that as a way to explain why she suddenly gained her powers is pointless as it has been an issue from the very beginning.
Jania can use a flying boat, I don’t know why she hasn’t used it since then.
Jania can freeze some of the most powerful people within a second like she did at the first SoL, where didn’t see her use that again to stop Sylvanas.
and so on.
Ultimately her powers and abilities she uses is what the story tellers deem her fit to use at the given time. Otherwise she could just mass teleport an elite force straight into the Kings Throne room and one shot him, but that wouldn’t make for a better story.
But lastly her powers are explained through the Thunder King, you cannot dispute that or the Thunder King’s and Raden’s power and even having a small % of that would do wonders.
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Ultimately, the displacement and mass arrest of an entire people due to the actions of a few is not ‘good’ (and indefensible if you want to go by modern day ethics). Aethas deserved to be arrested (he gambled with Jaina’s anger and lied to Lor’themar/Rommath). However, to imply Jaina “did nothing wrong” with the Purge is some mental gymnastics. Intentionally or not (and whether she directly did them herself), muggings and murder were enabled by her.
It also makes Vareesa’s own “the blood elves need redemption” angle a little hypocritical seeing as her own group happily houses sadists and thieves. Not that there’s anything wrong with a fictional character being hypocritical.
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So you say that having characters like that would make the story pointless.
Well it’s too late for that, Alliance already has like 5 characters that can already do that while Horde has 2 if you count Sylvanas (who was given a power up for no reason) and Thrall who hasn’t even appeared in the story yet.
Giving Jaina random powers that she only uses once is dumb, people are just going to ask why isn’t she using some of them at a later date.
We need some consistency and not for them to come up with a random power that perfectly fits in some bad situation she is gonna find herself in.
I know she got some power from Lei Shen and Ra’den, but it just seems to me that not even them would have near as much power as Jaina currently has, the things Jaina can pull of these days are ludicrous.
It is just the way the game works, it is the same reason when you hit someone with your weapon they don’t immediately die or are heavily mained.
Sylvanas died to a single bullet in Silverpine. Jania almost died to a single bullet in Warcrimes. They die as everyone else do but that cannot be shown in game as it would look stupid. Most powerful people are just mega-glass cannons.
Does it ruin the story? In some ways yes it does and Blizzard has repeatedly failed to curb things like this happening or give explanations as to why they can’t just simply do X.
It is just rule of cool, nobody wanted a flying boat as her entrance into the story, theoretically it is possible but it is stupid.
And I agree having powers what come in one moment and never used again is stupid as well because from now on we are left to question why it was needed and why it will never be used again.
Why didn’t Jania just fly the boat into the BoD?
They really are, Raden with his weapon created the Elemental Planes and Lei Shen battled for 30 days against The White Tiger and won. He was only killed by a Titan Artifact which was built to wipe the planet clean of life.
They are both very powerful. Jania despite everything is still pretty tamed compared to people like Khadgar and Medivh which is why people like Medivh were completely written off and Khadgar was forced to sulk in Kara’.
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Lei Shen was one of the best lore original characters in WoW. He will be missed.
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5.2 was both good content and good story.
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Indeed, #Lei-Shendidnothingwrong.
Then why give this power to just one character and just one faction.
If you want to have a faction war storyline, both factions have to be of relatively same strength but in BfA this is not the case, Alliance is shown to have the lead in basically everything and not only that but the Horde is about to have another civil war on it’s hands.
This has always been the case; the Horde has always been weaker lore wise. It’s just never reflected in game.
Yes that used to be the case, but if I’m not mistaken, Blizzard buffed the Horde up in Cata so that the factions would kind of mirror each other in power.
Not quite. They altered the quest zones so that content wise the factions had an equal amount of zones to level in. Canonically, a lot of Garrosh’ tactics relied on some trump card rather than outright fighting. Magnataur in Ashenvale for example.
I don’t see how they can be, even now. By population numbers alone, the three core races of the Horde, Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, can’t compete with the Alliance, the Blood Elves are also a tiny population, leaving only the Goblins and Forsaken to pick up the slack, but even then the Alliance has major advantages in the forms of the Dwarves and Goblins technology. The Draenei and return of Night Elf mages also resulted in a prominent arcane advantage, added onto what humans already contributed.
Honestly its a struggle to see them being even.
All of that was done in response to the invasion of Ashenvale. The Horde were at fault. It is comparatively small to nuking a city.
It was stated that some remained behind. And how was it justified by miltary necessity? You do not explain this. The Sha’tar and Kirin Tor both disagreed.
Yes it has. Many times.
Weird how Aethas never had those guards around all the other times he was in the Violet Hold? Or how none of the Council members ever bring their own personal guards to the Citadel. Even if they were there on completely legitimate business, Jaina had good reason to think they were enemies considering the betrayal, and the fact that Aethas has never had guards there, and I doubt their job involves standing around, armed, waiting for someone to teleport in.
Do you honestly think any act of killing is malicious? That is the only way tha argument works. Also, did you not read the next part? I gave a perfectly sound non-malicious reason. Malice is harming people for selfish reasons. Jaina thought the Kirin Tor was in danger, and acted in self-defense to what she had good reason to believe was a threath.
You are confusing her having good reason with her being right. The Sunreavers had just betrayed her, and their leader had occupied the central office with his own personal guards, something he had never done before. Do you not think that looks in the least bit suspicious? Why were he there, when there was no council meeting? Why did he bring guards unlike what he has never done? Why were they armed and standing like they were planning to attack the first person who entered? None of this seems to implicate Aethas in your eyes? Suspecting there might be a wider conspiracy is “just a hunch”?
Or maybe, just maybe, you are being biased and wrong? I know you screech whenever that is implied. You have yet to give a reason for why Jaina’s actions were completely unreasonable.
Imagine coming home, to find a group of armed men, guns in hand, who are part of an organization that had just smuggled a powerful weapon to a dangerous enemy. Would you think shooting them constitues murder?
Exactly, she killed them because she thought they were traitors, not because she wanted to kill them for some malicious desire, thus making it not murder.
I also see you did not respond to the fact that Jaina’s acts would qualify as self-defense, thus making the act at worst voluntary manslaugther (I guess those arguments just did not fit into the narrative, but ignoring them will not make them go away) so I assume you accept these claims.
No, his boss was Alliance High command, which he stated himself. Jaina did not order him, so you are wrong about this.
You are missing one important detail, which ruins you entire point. Jaina attempted genocide (while in a state of mind where she could not be expected to act reasonably mind you) and desisted before harming anyone (unless you consider Thrall being slightly tired harm). Garrosh actually killed people. Jaina later swore not to do something like that again. What do you have to hold against her? She did not harm anyone, only intended to do so because she was under great stress and not thinking clearly and she intends not to attempt genocide ever again.
Mind you, what she did was still a crime, but not the same as Garrosh did. Her real crime was forcing water elementals to do her bidding. That would probably be a better argument. Regardless, if held up to c ourt, just about anything she did can be attributed to reasons of insanity or something in that mix, so she would not suffer the same repercussions as Garrosh.
The storyline involved the Blood Elves learning Blood powers and Blood Golems from the ToT while the Alliance got Jania mega buffed.
I don’t know why Blizzard decided to make Jania this powerful, I am not a writer on the team.
Not exactly, a faction war story doesn’t need to be even.
It was an Alliance held world. It makes sense why they would have so a large presence in that world much to the dislike of the Horde players.
Just look at the Horde races
Orc’s are space aliens what fled to Kali’ on a bunch of boats.
Forsaken were recently created in Warcraft 3.
Tauren are migrants and nomands who were almost wiped out by the Centar.
Darkspear Trolls were kicked out of Stranglethorn then almost wiped out by the Sea Witch before fleeing to Kali’.
Blood Elves are a genocided race.
Bilgewater Goblins destroyed their own islands and tried to tell the rest of their people into slavery.
The Horde races have all been diminished in some way when joining together, that was the point of the Horde forming, a bunch of ragtag people coming together for survival. Not some military order bent on wiping out anyone they want.
And since then in a matter of like 30 years Blizzard has somehow made the Horde into an equal power to the Alliance as the various kingdoms (mainly Humans and Night Elves) suffer massively since Warcraft 3 to now. And that already feels forced to the point of shattering the people who play them races immersion.
It is to be expected that the Horde races would have less because they are less.
No but then that story would be boring and over quickly, they marketed BfA as a faction war to end all faction wars, as a faction pride expansion, as a war that will make you question your faction and choose between it and Azeroth.
They made it big themselves and they can’t go back on it now and end the war with one faction stomping over the other in a couple of patches.
How would you like them to handle this?
You can’t have one faction always stronger than the other else every decision on Azeroth would go in Alliance’s favor because they are stronger than the Horde and they can just threaten war.
I think their mistake is in making the Alliance too strong in the beginning so when they want the factions going to war against one another they have to gimp the Alliance to make an interesting story and that is just pissing people off.
Wrong. The Horde could be smaller and weaker than the Alliance, but many forces in the best have faced similar situations and prevailed because they were more mobile and abused that advantage. Guerrilla warfare became so prominent for a reason.
The Horde just stupidly insists on fighting massive battles despite lacking the means to win them.
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