Lilura has already answered the first part so I will just respond to the second.
And that is a very hard dilemma to handle and I don’t really no how to answer that.
The only angle I can see from this is just other races joining the Horde, the various Troll tribes, Tauren tribes, a united Tinkers Union and so on. And from there perhaps the mass growth the Horde is having is threatening the Alliances hold on power which would cause enough tension to spark a war from which could be even.
That is true, while I will defend the choice of the Night Elves being within the Alliance since the start making the Alliance so powerful to begin with has lead to this. The internal issues style they used orginally to keep the Alliance in check doesn’t take away or fix the issue either, it just surface level cover up.
Warcraft 3 ends with the possibilities of so many different factions and combos to choose from but they only wanted 2 which lead to this.
I would have 0 idea how to handle the majority of Alliance races becoming weaker and the majority of Horde races becoming stronger. Vanilla Horde was one tribe of refugee trolls, some Orcs what managed to transport their entire population on a bunch of boats, a race recently created within 4 years and cannot reproduce and a bunch of nomads.
I don’t think you can somehow turn that from a ragtag group of survivors to a power on the size of the Alliance in like 20-30 years unless the Alliance has some massive losses somewhere else which in return would feel completely cheap. The only way would be to decrease the Alliance rather than increase the Horde.
There is just the lesser of X evils to choose from and no “good” way to handle this.
Yes but this is not the real world, in WoW we have magic, we’ve got characters that can do some ridiculous stuff and besides if Blizzard knew how to write a war story we wouldn’t be having this conversation and things like you listed would be happening in the story in the first place.
You did the right thing once again senor tauren whoever who that is lakeing crying, I the Rainblood i am not worried by that Derek Proudmore he is powerless and if he think he’s got a chance against Jaina with a mere kife-dagger ( barely a dagger to me check my mages assassins honor 80 Legion heirloom on the third Rainblood sister and you will see what assassinations daggers are …
His brain too was swallowed did into the abyss, let them come to us we the Alliance even extremists like the Proodmore though at time justified (She suffered many heavy mental and physical trauma ) have nothing to fear from those petty moves !
Anther clueless move by Rotbrain, forget about the IQ of a Trogg, she now definitely got the IQ of a clam.
So? This isn’t about whose fault it was, this is about the scale of the reaction to the action, Theramore was an active military location funnelling troops into Kalimdor that threatened to catch the Horde forces in a pincer manoeuvre. Did the Horde start it? Absolutely! Garrosh had invaded Ashenvale. You can’t call Theramore’s actions ‘small’, when they absolutely threatened to encircle his army.
Where? Its not in Tides of War.
I have a few times. But, look at my above response to your quote.
No it has not. Just saying it, doesn’t make it so. She walks in and kills people. That’s murder. She might have had motive, but still murder.
Weird how all the Dalaran Peacekeepers seemed to be on annual leave at the same time, and how the rest of the Council of Six all seemed to be on their summer holidays as well, I mean with all the Peacekeepers gone, and Alliance soldiers portalled in, and those Silver Covenent vigilante’s I’m not surprised Aethas would want a security detail.
Come on, you know full well why they were there. So that we could see Jaina go all ‘Pew Pew’. The rest of the Council weren’t there because, well, wouldn’t that be awkward, when they all fired back and Jaina got locked in the Violet Hold. Because that’s how the story needed to go.
Umm, that -is- the job of a bodyguard, to stand around, armed, waiting and watching for a threat to your principal.
No, for example soldiers killing each other in War is an impersonal act, there is a reason that propaganda tries to ‘dehumanise’ the enemy, to make them a faceless caricature, or to inspire rage at their sins. Those Sunreavers were Dalaran citizens. They were Jaina’s -People-, she has a duty of care to them, as head of the Council of Six. If she is so almighty powerful as to stroll around Dalaran teleporting people to the Violet Hold against their Will then she could have done that instead. She did not have to Kill them. She chose to. That makes it murder.
She doesn’t know this, and more importantly, Aethas doesn’t -know- that she knows. He’s not doing anything unusual, because he has no way of knowing what is about to happen. It really is as simple as they needed a location for the showdown to happen, and as ever, Jaina needed to look omnipotent, where else were they going to do it? Suspecting there is a wider conspiracy does not give you the right to go in with a ‘Shoot first ask questions later’ policy. I mean again, that is just murder.
Except that isn’t an accurate analogy. Its not just Jaina’s home, its their home as well, and you know one or two people did the smuggling, probably not these people, you’re waving your gun around like you want to hurt somebody, so they get on edge and draw their guns too. You then start shooting them.
Yep, still classes as Murder.
That’s -STILL- Murder! She shot first, she killed them without proof, that murder, plain and simple!
Not really Self defence when you are the Aggressor, is it now? I mean if they had done any magic on her, then maybe, but that’s not what happened.
Ohoh! So Theramore was part of a Belligerent state against the Horde? Theramore is even more justified now. I had no idea Jaina had so little power in her own City.
I think you are missing the detail here. She did not ‘Desist’, She had to be -Stopped-. Twice.
“I didn’t kill everyone in a whole city, I just tried to! I wasn’t in my right mind and I promise I won’t do it again!”
Yeah. No.
Even if you’re going for ‘Diminished Responsibility’ that’s still an incarceration case, and she certainly would not have been allowed to run a city state having just proven to have genocidal inclinations. That’s just not how it works.
That’s what I’m saying, it doesn’t make sense for any other reason than to make Jaina look cool and scary. They don’t know she’s been to Darnassus, they don’t know she’s coming to Dalaran.
That does not suffice. For it to be justified by military necessity, the threath posed by Theramore must be at least equal to the attack. Last I checked, Theramore was not in the habit of destroying cities.
Just saying so does not make it so. Killing is not the same as murder.
None of this is shown in game.
That happened after Aethas was arrested. You cannot justify his actions by Things that had not yet occured.
Perhaps if they were official Kirin Tor guards, they could legally occupy an office like that. They were not however. They were private guards. Yo cannot just bring Mercenaries wherever you go and claim they can act that way just because they are your guards. Again, Aethas has never brought his own guards there, there was no council-Meeting, and it happened irght as the Sunreavers memebrs commited treason. It looks and smells of a wider conspiracy.
Oh, so because Jaina has a “duty to care for them” she may not punish them, and that automatically proves she did it with malicious intent. How on Earth does “Having a duty to care for someone” automatically makes killing them, under any circumstance, a maliciously intended act? Jaina also has a duty to protect herself and her nation from traitors, and she had good reason to think they were.
No, you are refusing to read the actual definition of murder in order to keep maing this argument. Again: Murder is killing someone with malicious intent. Jaina just teleported into her office, to find it occupied by armed guards, who where there for unknown reasons and whom she had good reason to think were part of a treacherous conspiracy. She acted in self-defense. The fact that she could have not killed them does not automatically make her inten malicious. That is what you are trying to argue and it is illogical. You must prove that if someone kills someone when they could have refrained from doing so, their intent to kill them (even in self-defense) automatically becomes malicious. That is what you now have to prove in order to prove Jaina commited murder. And so there is no misunderstanding, People can kill in self-defense where it was not necesarry out of fear and stress and thought it was needed.
It does not matter if Jaina knew of not. All that matters is that she had good reason to suspect it, something you do not contest. Aethas, knowingly of unknowingly put her into a positio where she had good reason to believe she would be attacked, something you do not contest either, making her act justified by self-defense. And even if it is not justified, you then have to prove that automatically makes her intent to kill malicious.
The fact that the analogy takes place in a home is unimportant. Substitute it With the local bar and the point still stands. The point is that you enter a residence filled with people ou have good reason to believe are traitors and were waiting for you to kill you. The Sunreavers were not on edge because Jaina was “waving her spells around”, they were in battle-formation when she entered, wielding weapons, so your analogy to debunk my analogy fails, and you have not proven it to be murder. Again, you are messing up the timeline just to make an argument. It is still self-defense.
Again, no. Murder is killing someone with malicious intent. Jaina acted in self-defense against an Group that lookes ready to pounce on her. You are just goalpost-shifting the definition of murder to make her into a murderer rather than provide actual evidence of her intent.
The Sunreavers were the aggressors as they occupied the citadel and pointed weapons at her. Who carries out the first attack does not matter. What matters is that Jaina had good reason to think she was about to get attacked. If she attacked them, believing they would attack her if she hesitated for a second, then it is justified by need of self-defense, something not malicous, thus making it not murder. You must prove Jaina knew she was not under any threath and that her action cannot be classified as voluntary manslaugther due to her being in a distressed state, in order to prove it was murder.
So honestly, if you came to your workplace, finding a members of a group you know commited weapon-smuggling and betrayed you, who would have good reason to kill you to keep it a secret, all pointing guns at you, you would not try to shoot first? And be charged with murder if you did?
This has nothing to do With the claim, so I take it you Accept Hawthorne did not follow her orders, and thus she cannot be charged with enforce dispalcing of People.
And then she stopped, of her own volition.
So she did not harm anyone maliciously, and will not do so again.
This can be seen as debatable because Jaina was the one who used Darnassus, an Alliance city, to secure the Divine Bell.
It can be seen that using the Kirin Tor resources for the Alliance, can be seen as the first step for some Sunreavers to join Silverthorn’s rebel group and infiltrate Darnassus.
However; this is no excuse for Aethas’ poor leadership abilities.
That has nothing to do with the alercations that took place in this argument. Her aiding the Alliance in no way made it seem like they were going to be attacked first in that moment. They were already armed and ready when she came in. What matters is the situation itself, not the events that caused it.
Perhaps, but her action was fully legal and was intended to prevent the usage of a powerful weapon, not to use it.
The only point where it would have been questionable would be if Modera, Aethas or any of the others, would have questioned Jaina on why she shouldn’t use Kirin Tor resources to aid the Alliance.
The fact that they didn’t raise questions on the actions, does mean that her securing Darnassus was lawful in state. It was the Sunreavers who rebelled, who thought differently.
Ermm…You can kind of log in and see for yourself if you like, take a wander through the Northern Barrens and the south of Stonetalon, I mean that is exactly what is shown in game.
No, it is not.
That is not how it works. You do not, in War have to do exactly the same amount of damage as the enemy does to you, that would be insane, and unlike any War ever fought in the entire history of warfare. Give me one example, just one, of any War where that has happened…
No, but Murder is the same as Murder. She committed Murder.
Really? Because you’re very determined to make a song and dance about the Sunreaver Guards, and yet you don’t want to acknowledge that the Council of Six and the Dalaran Peacekeepers are absent? I mean they aren’t there, so clearly they must all be somewhere, where are they?
Pretty sure the Silver Covenant have been in Dalaran since Wrath of the Lich King at least, and as you say, he has guards, because we see them in game, which equally means the things we -don’t - see in game are not there. So No Council of Six, No Dalaran Peacekeepers. I think under those circumstances, given that the Council chambers are pretty much next door to the Silver Covenant Enclave, having a Security detail with you is logical, prudent and fair.
The Kirin Tor has Official Guards. None of them were in the city at the time for some inexplicable reason, hence Jaina letting loose a Paramilitary organisation with no legal powers of arrest.
Good job it wasn’t Mercenaries then, but rightful citizens of Dalaran
And as I say, maybe, given that inexplicably the Police force of Dalaran had all vanished, he felt he needed to for his own personal safety (A fact which he would later be proved right about!)
Also, Jaina is a bit, no, a lot hypocritical there. She has already used Kirin Tor resources to aid the Alliance, but when a couple of Sunreavers do, without being told to by Aethas, that is justification to murder people out of hand?
Errmm, Yes. That’s exactly what it means. I mean that -is- what it means. Any state that systematically kills its own people, without any proof of guilt in a crime, is committing murder. I mean this is primary school level stuff… She is murdering people for their political affiliation. Try to tell me, in all honesty, how that is not a wicked act. She is killing people who were not complicit in a crime. That -is-Murder!
Ahem. Also Aethas’ Office. He had a right to be there, so did they, for that matter.
No, it, actually does, under most legal codes. ‘Reasonable Force’ it’s called. Jaina went straight into Kill Mode. That moves beyond Reasonable Force, and into Murder.
She could have detained them non violently, she -chose- to kill them instead. That legally makes her intent Malicious. She had another option, but she -chose- to kill.
Well, it quite plainly does. I mean if she didn’t know, then what the heck is she doing teleporting in and killing people for no reason?
Sort of like going to your office which is right next door to a Paramilitary Headquarters who hate you would make you believe you would be attacked. I’d imagine I’d take some guards with me…
They’re -Bodyguards!- Wielding weapons and looking scary is what they are supposed to do! They are supposed to deter any attacks against their Principal.
Jaina is not acting in Self Defence. They take no hostile action against her. She Kills them. That is not Self Defence, that is murder.
So your definition of Self Defence is ‘Pre-emptive murder’? “They looked aggressive so I killed all of them” That is not how the Law works, Her intent is pretty clear. She intends to kill them, and does. She is not acting in Self Defence, as that would imply that she had been attacked. She had not.
It really, really does matter. I mean, legally, it really absolutely matters.
Unless there is an active state of War, or some sort of Home Invasion scenario (Neither of which applied) then Nope, you are wrong, that is still Murder.
No, that is not how it legally works. What you have described there is still murder.
I’d call the Police, personally. I wouldn’t kick the door in and start screaming at them. I’d call the Police. Why didn’t she?
No, I was making a statement riding on the back of the one you made. Of Course Jaina gave the orders! Its Theramore Soldiers all the way from Theramore to Stonetalon. The only Alliance soldiers are the -Penal- troops sent from the Stockades. Think about that. Penal Troops. And Theramore was OK with that? Basically either Jaina was a Puppet ruler of Theramore with no power, or she -did- have power and signed off on all that. Which is it, it can’t be both…
Oh, she only tried to kill civilians and children twice and had to be prevented from doing so, then she stopped, so -that’s- alright then!
Yeah, that doesn’t float…
Is this seriously how you think Law works? She tried to kill a city full of civilians, but because she failed it is somehow OK? Is that honestly how you think it works?
I think we all know why that is, and they are now a Dev, so we will only see more of this Jaina ex Machina nonsense.
I also want to point out that this is the 67. time that Brigante and Osirienne are debating this topic with each other. We should arrange a small celebration once we reach 70.