Baine dishonours the Horde

There is no honor in going behind the warchief 's back. And yet they talk of honor. Why not just confront her?
And why you even want to do that? There was and there is and there will be always war between horde and alliance and each side use every tools they have to overcome other side.
So why you seek honor in war?!

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I agree, but I think honor gets confused with principles here, or maybe they are the same thing in a way.

See, I really don’t like Baine, or Saurfang.
But with Baine, I can actually understand why he did what he did, even if I don’t like the way he did it…ehh, get me?

I think this also smirched all over Sylvanas’ character, she too had certain principles since she was released from the Lich King(Free will for one), but now they’re out of the window because of the villain bat…or perhaps there really is an interresting twist of events coming…

Basically, this.

edit:

And certain High Chieftain of the Highmountain tauren.

Interesting point, but since the Horde was originally formed by orcs, I would say it’s essential structure hasn’t changed until explicitly stated. Mak’Gora being part of that I would say makes sense to continue as a tradition within the Horde. I think you are totally on point with that there are shifting priorities within the Horde depending who is leading it, but it also seems to me without due respect simply being a superior isn’t enough to make your allies fight for you. Examples that come to mind are Drek’Thar in Hillsbrad, the Tauren in Stonetalon or half of MoP. If this is the case and not just anomalous behaviour then Sylvanas needs to maintain at least appearances of respecting these traditions.

Could very easily be wrong though, as far as I can tell there’s nothing that really indicates this is one way or the other.

This is not treason. This is totally like a relationship. If you dont like your companion, you dont go screw others behind his/her back. You break the relationship first and then you can do whatever.

As long as taurens are part of the horde, their leader should also follow the rules.
If he doesn’t want to follow rules/rulers, leave or change them.
Staying and not following sucks

So what is war about if not harming innocents directly or indirectly? Let’s say that country A declares war to country B. Country B takes every male above 16y of age and gives them weapons. Those are now soldiers. So those soldiers are they guilty or innocent?
In addition, if you kill soldiers, you are also harming their families, which are also innocent.
Maybe there are 10 terrorists inside a house and they are killing people and wrecking havoc. You can just blow them up, but they have one hostage who is innocent. Do you do it? Would you kill that hostage to save more lives?

Let’s make it a little more challenging: who can judge innocence? Maybe there is a guy pretending to be innocent and he is undercover or planted.
What will happen if your troops all try to judge before executing orders?
What about brainwashed or fanatics? They clearly have a different opinion about innocence? Would you respect it?

You defy your superior’s orders at your own peril, always. You hope, that in the end, the judging party (the court or military court or history) will find your choice right and the truth is usually victors shape innocence.

So dont play dumb and oversimplify matters which are more than complicated and grey

Is there a poll i missed? There is a lot of bias and a lot of arguing from what I have seen

and as explained, Baine is selfish to bring his friendship with Jaina in front of the horde’s interests. At least, you discuss this with others first, not go yolo.
For doing whatever comes to his mind, Baine is judged here and everywhere.

This is funny, it almost applies to any person forcibly enlisted by their country to fight their wars. Come on, it’s not unheard of, nor is it weird to capture family members of your opponents and use them as bait. Let’s not hide behind our fingers. Yes, it might not be the noblest of ways to end a war, but it’s an opportunity rarely missed.

‘Petty revenge’ ? How is killing the mage who saved the alliance leaders a couple of times a petty revenge? It’s a strategical target in my eyes.

About the war and how it started, yes, horde initiated the war claiming it would start anyway sooner or later. There were conflicts anyway while trying to secure azerite, just not officially.
So Horde thought that by initiating the war on their terms they stood a greater chance. Something that was not decided solely by Sylvanas as you know

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Guy gets pulled into a war he never asked for and is tortured, having done nothing against his tormentors. I think most would agree he is innocent. But what we call it matters not. What matters is that Derek has done nothing malicious to the Horde to warrant such treatment.

It was hyperbole.

Selfish? Jaina saved his nation when none of the other Horde nations would lift a finger to help. At Worst, he is making a minor repayment. Also, the Horde loses nothing by losing Derek. The asassination would never have worked out due to how Jaina reacted.

Pretty much every Horde leader agreed he did the right thing, or at least that Sylvanas went too far with her punishment.

So because other people do it, it is okay for the Horde to do it?

Sylvanas herself states it is in retaliation for the Alliance killing Rastakhan.

All those who support Sylvanas, dishonours the Horde with their actions!

Just realized the Thread title…
It’s so wrong that it hurts.
Baine dishonors himself (disloyalty, breaking an oath, going behind Syl’s back etc.), to prevent Sylvanas from (further) dishonoring the Horde. And i think he realizes that

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So…

:thinking:

If Baine doesn’t care if he’s dishonouring the Horde, does this mean he is exempt from being charged with dishonour?

Sylvanas dishonours the Horde too in her own way. But no one makes constant threads about her… dishonouring.

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So you acknowledge that Baine is dishonouring himself, and given his position, therefore the horde, but it doesn’t count because… Sylvanas? I’m not sure how that makes the thread title inaccurate, could you elaborate by chance?

Between this, Hachak’s comment above and others, let me just re-emphasis this; Were it only that Baine dishonoured himself in some capacity, that alone wouldn’t have been enough for me to think it merited discussion. It’s that he does this because of the lack of honour he believes Sylvanas is bringing to the horde. What merits discussion, in my opinion, is this hypocrisy.

The sense that I am getting from replies is that there are generally two schools of thought of those that disagree with me;

  • His actions were not dishonourable
  • It’s not valid to call it dishonour because it’s justified in some capacity

To the first point if we can’t agree that sabotage, deceit and a total lack of forthrightly behaviour is textbook dishonour then I don’t think there’s any point to a conversation. I don’t mean to be obstinate about it but in my experience if you can’t agree on definitions then the conversation isn’t going anywhere.

To the second it is my view that trying to quash dishonourable behaviour with more of the same is like trying to put out a fire with a flamethrower. If the point is that dishonour is a sickness, then how does he expect to cure it by spreading it? Or to rephrase; how is the horde any better off if those who might supplant Sylvanas prove themselves to be as dishonourable as she was?

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Uhh what? Haha

Sylvanas has the attractive body to most of the fans :wink:

Baine can’t compete with that!

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Some of us are in to hooves…
And wide chests…
The handlebars are an added extra :crazy_face:

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that’s where you are wrong.
He doesn’t give Orders to his Troops to dishonor the Horde, he only dishonors himself.
Sylvanas uses her position to get soldiers and others to do her dirty-work. They have to obey her because she’s the warchief.
Baine decides he can’t watch longer and takes matters into his own hands, with one co-conspirator in Zellig. He doesn’t use his position to say, take the ship with his Tauren Soldiers. He goes there, and does his thing.

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Some points to address here:

If you refer to the ‘sickness’ as in what is shown in the most recent cinematic then i’d ask you stop right there. We don’t know what he means by that, only that we know he’s referring that it’s hurting the Horde. Now he could mean Sylvanas, her methods, the way it is being ‘broken’ or even the Horde just not being a thing he wants to be in anymore.

The only reference is how ‘honour’ to him is being squandered by Sylvanas.

Secondly, I do not think judging someone’s actions by going: “This guy is like that guy, so he’s just as bad, surely!” doesn’t feel very… effective? Bear with me one this by saying Vol’jin.

Technically if one were emulating Vol’jin’s actions now in Sylvanas’ reign, then Vol’jin proved to not have been the best proof of a Warchief candidacy then. We can draw this back even further by saying Garrosh can’t have been effective because he often… disagreed with Thrall on matters of station?

That’s the gist. And to it, I answer: “Wrong.” in a hopefully non-offensive way.

Phwoar, Agreed…

I love the look of her rotting body lined with necrosis. :nauseated_face:

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Rule 34 virtually -never- portrays her like that :wink:

There are dark places on the Net even the Old God dread to wander…
…and there, you can find… things

:confounded: :nauseated_face: :face_vomiting:

I was trying to preserve their sanity >.<

So most fans are attracted to the dead?

You mean like Furry art?

His thing being, sabotage, deception and lying. Do you think that’s not dishonourable?

Everyone represents their faction to some extend. For instance Putress’, a full on traitor, actions at the wrathgate threw all forsaken under suspicion. The Orcs that mutilated the Nelves as a result of starvation of the orcs due to the Nevles not willing to trade with them directly before the cataclysm, Thrall was asked to publicly condemn these actions. Faction Leaders represent their people for better or worse far more than anyone else. By committing these dishonourable actions Baine does dishonour himself, the tauren and the Horde.

We don’t know what he means by this? Well then spoilers ahead for you because he seems to be fairly explicit

I cannot abide this, [champion]. Each time I think Sylvanas has gone too far, she finds a new line to cross. I have watched her commit one dishonourable act after another. She desecrates more than the memory of a fallen enemy. She desecrates the Horde itself. This cannot stand. Something must be done. And soon” - Baine

Now, there is some tiny wiggle room interpretively, though I personally think you are really reaching if you still think it’s unclear after this quote that the crux of his problem with her is that in his opinion she lacks honour. I have little doubt the egregious nature of her methods are also a concern to him but here he specifically criticised her for the dishonour inherent in her actions.

Second point you made, you are actually putting words in my mouth there. I never said he was just as bad as she is. I asked if the horde would be any better off for replacing someone because they lack honour either with someone or using means that lacked honour. I personally do not equate honour to being good or bad inherently. Though given Baine seems the think if the Horde loses it’s honour it loses it’s soul (or something to that effect), then I think his hypocritical actions become quite pitiful.

For the record, in my opinion Vol’Jin wasn’t the best choice for warchief, neither was Garrosh at the times of their ascension/promotion (unsure of the correct word). But then we are going off topic.