Nah, imho Sylvanas’ fans are into the whole ‘sexy high/blood elf dark ranger’. That she’s undead seems to be put to an aside.
Eesh, no need to try and insult my intelligence.
I’m saying Baine could mean another thing, not just one thing. You know the crux to a good conversation is how you shouldn’t try to insult the other party? Right?
How am I putting words in your mouth here?
I am putting your question in the same way as you basically just said it:
You literally just claimed, in this sentence alone - and now you are backing away from it - that Baine’s methods are just as bad as Sylvanas’ is in the honour-o-meter.
How else could I have interpreted that? Also, now you’re the one trying to add more definitions to something I should have known about earlier. I didn’t know you thought honour that way and excuse me if I don’t meticulously fish for your posts for a good analysis.
Also with the Vol’jin and Garrosh examples, I posted them as examples as to answer your statement - emphasis on YOUR - that a Warchief is measured by their deeds in terms of honour, yet nope! what dishonourable things they did was excused no matter what for other reasons which gave them their stations as Warchief regardless.
2 Likes
I’m sorry if it came across that way, my assumption was purely that you were not aware of this exact quote since I feel it is quite conclusive. It is genuinely not my intention to insult you in anyway. For instance, I am not saying that it is ludicrous to interpret it differently, just that “I personally” think it would be reaching. I was quite particular with my words for this reason.
Okay, I see what you are saying. I apologise, the way I interpreted it I was conflated it with good/bad in the moral sense which is a debate I am deliberately trying to steer well clear of.
But yes, okay so back to what you originally said. Actually that’s almost entirely my point. Bear with me trying to navigate the wordplay since I am trying to talk about something very specific. Logically I agree with you, A being as bad as B isn’t a compelling argument at all, but then the issue that I take is that using this type of analogy ‘person B’ is saying ‘person S’ is toxic for a quality ‘person B’ also possesses, which is also very underwhelming if it is trying to compel me to sympathise.
This to me is made even less so given the background, which is we just got our rears good and properly kicked but I’m supposed to sympathise with this character’s preference in how we go about losing while he is pulling favours at our expense for the some people who just kicked us? To me, this makes it more than just not compelling, it makes me angry at this character and the idea that I’m supposed to sympathetic to this narrative is not something I can connect with at all.
I’ll be honest I can’t really understand what you are getting at with Vol’jin and Garrosh since you are going all over the place with it trying to emulate how I assume you feel I was treating you. I understand if you think I was trying to insult you in someway but if you could rephrase it plainly maybe there’s something I can learn from the point you were trying to make there. Hopefully we can understand each other a little more clearly now =)
3 Likes
No worries, I see where you’re going with now.
The fault of story-patterns really. I’m not exactly sure how Blizzard personally wanted to reflect this. I could think of other ways they could, but honestly, I am no writer nor developer enough to make a hopeful change.
I understand your anger, and would probably be in the same boat if this happened if Sylvanas was the one in Baine’s seat. This is why I cling to such hopes that Blizzard will make Baine better as proof. As it stands, I am not sure even WHY he does these secret subterfuge things.
If it is fear of unfair play, then why doesn’t Baine just bring it up? Silent/personal monologue would do for me imho. To be sympathetic to a character is to provide ways to be relatable to that character, honestly. And I can see how those not in Baine’s favour may feel this really hard.
As for the Vol’jin/Garrosh thing, I was just thinking on the whole idea that a Warchief isn’t really based on the misdeeds that one has done, but rather the deeds they prove to make and seeming to show, such as Vol’jin and his role in SoO, Garrosh and the promise of greater pride and eventually Sylvanas and her move at the Broken Shore.
Gentle reminder:
“I have just returned from Orgrimmar,” she said. Her voice scraped against the walls. As her mouth moved, Lor’themar could see the flesh around it crack and peel like a long-discarded snakeskin.
![:nauseated_face:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/nauseated_face.png?v=6" ":nauseated_face:")
6 Likes
Sounds like we are mostly in tune then, glad to hear it =)
I like Baine, tbh I always wanted him to have a more central role since Cairne never did much then just got killed off. Just not like this… I would love it if Baine put his mighty hoof down and effectively said “back of b*tch, you’re stepping on our pride”. If we are going to lose the war, and we usually do, then can’t we at least do it together? you know? Such a shame we need what amounts to an excuse in the form of inter factional disputes. Can’t we just band together, do the best we can like the family the horde is meant to be? If we lose I can live with that, I think most folks could.
Hmm I see. Still Garrosh was the hero of Northrend, Vol’Jin was the saviour of the Horde, i mean these were the narratives at the time and they are both pretty good ones. Sylvanas though was always a left turn, everything Vol’Jin said when he appointed her is a valid perspective. Which tbh adds insult to injury if it was always the plan to use it as a plot device just to kill her off.
3 Likes
![:rofl:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
Hot undead waifu material, right?
Always someone who’ll be into it. Who knows, maybe her ‘nethers’ are well preserved in their mind ![:thinking:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
Powers of necromancy to preserve her dead state.
Or just in dire need of lip balm.
/speculation
I don’t think even Ol’ Bwonsamdi is that desperate.
1 Like
He -did- say dat he wanted a Warchief and tried ta get Talanjo ta kill ‘er.
Who knows for wat purpose…
Well, if we…
Oh no. Oh NO. OH NO.
1 Like
Since I don’t bother to read through 312 replies;
The Horde dishonours the Horde by merely existing.
Atleast the Old Horde(First and Second War), Iron Horde, Dark Horde, Fel Horde, Fel Iron Horde, Black Horde, Nether Horde, Fiery Horde, Mongrel Horde, Elf Horde, Human Horde, Tauren Horde, whatever Horde fits your current fantasy, had the decency to be exterminated, unlike the current Scourge Horde.
Doesnt even make any sense. If you are going to do an faction jab it should at least make sense, also if you are going for bants it should be funny. For instance;
Your facial hair brings dishonour to the alliance. It looks like you are balding from the chin. Is the next step a facial comb-over?
Just for instance
1 Like
My 2 cents. Maybe Baine thought that using Derek to kill Proudmores will be the last drop for Alliance. And Anduin will go from “Our enemy is Sylvanas, if she’s gone, we are ok with Horde” to “Enough is enough. Let’s fight fire with fire” and start doing what Horde usually do. Obliterating the enemy.
I think preservation of Horde is pretty honorable.
Yes, with our meta-knowledge, we know that Mr. not-toxic masculinity will not do that, but Baine could not know that.
Honor is such a subjective word, and by all means overused in the Horde, the orc’s live by it sure, and even the Trolls and Tauren do so as well. But it has never been a driving factor for the Blood elves or Forsaken. They get the job done no matter what it takes. And even during Thrall his reign Sylvanas and her apothecaries won the battle by all means possible. Most notable to be seen during WotlK, rarely anyone frowned upon it there.
If we go back a few expansions there was one strong Warchief who also liked to use the word Honor, Garrosh. He also wanted to form the “The true Horde” and he also hated Sylvanas. So basing a true horde on Honor isn’t the answer either.
The Horde was always about freedom and a place to settle at while the Alliance encroached upon their lands. At this point the story has advanced by leaps and bounds ofcourse and the Horde has somehow evolved and been reshaped multiple times along the way.
Baine has clearly some regrets about this war, but its also understandable considering the Tauren aren’t exactly the warmongering kind of race and they live by the guidance of the earth mother. So having Baine conflicted about worsening the conflict is the correct move, but I feel that Sylvanas has seen through this in advance and is quietly pulling the strings. Afterall this war isn’t Sylvanas her main focus, she knows there is a bigger threat lurking in the shadows. But at the same time she can’t have the Alliance breathing down her neck all the time so she wants to crush them once and for all so she can deal with the larger threat.
2 Likes
This particular part I disagree with. I think it’s more accurate to say its importance is subjective, there may be some nuances of differences but I think everyone gets the same idea of what that word is associated with.
Everything else you say though is pretty fair and I agree with 90% of it
1 Like
Let me explain then why its subjective, its all about perception of the word Honor.
- Some see vengeance for their fallen family member as honor, others see it as pointless violence that continues the cycle.
- Some see honor in showing mercy to your enemy in battle, others see honor in death in battle.
- Others see dying with a weapon in their hand as honorable, others see it that never picking up a weapon in the first place is honorable.
- One would say that defying the bad decisions of your warchief is honorable, others would say staying loyal to your warchief and trusting said warchief is honorable.
The list can continue but I hope you can see that honor is interpreted by the individual more then anything. Quite similar to the question “Why do we fight?” from Mists of Panderia now we can ask the question “What is true Honor?”.
4 Likes
We can’t even get it right IRL.
How is a game suppose to get it right if we, in our principles cannot.
3 Likes
Is it dishonourable to do something honourable while betraying someone who is dishonourable, or is it dishonourable to follow someone who is dishonourable? Dishonourable.
1 Like