Baine dishonours the Horde

Lore Story
146

It worked in the past with Stormwind.
And that’s the whole point of the Alliance invasion in Zuldazar.

Not talking only about those. I was referring to her quest in Stormheim.
——

But this is rather sidetracking.
The point is, that as sensible as said actions might be, either because of the morality of the ones involved or the rationale they wield while doing so, a mindset that almost literally goes into “Abandoning Ship” or “My people and the ones that think like me, first” will hardly be seen in a positive light or be effectively marketed as something that promotes the factions well being.
Even if it was understandable given the person involved.

And in Baines actions case, it certainly doesn’t sound as the kind of honourable his culture would approve off.

147

So she has the knowledge of the Shadow Council now?
AFAIK, she did fail to break Koltira and Thassarian and the DK PC break him out.

Even in Stormheim, she’s the person making a deal with a person opposed to someone helping us against the Legion and willing to enslave a Val’kyr

Still, that’s a player’s perception of his actions being antithetical to Tauren values

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148

Emulating said tactic doesn’t require to have the same knowledge/power as them.
The Shadow Council didn’t invent the wheel here.
In fact, said tactic is being emulated across most faction assaults with every single target WQ.

And Baine is gambling on the Alliance goodwill with a deference towards the lady that has just spearheaded an assault that has killed the Hordes newest ally and raided their capitol.
And is doing so by further killing directly a bunch of additional Horde soldiers.

If the theory about both being motivated by selfishness regarding them or their race is held at face value, Baines actions are about just as harming as Sylvanas.
On a scale matter is somewhat debatable, but such is the magnitude of the acts when compared with each other.
This lone act may have doomed the Horde war effort.

149

All questions answered, sure, he’s doing it wrong.

But at the same time: Who started this whole thing in the first place? One can technically draw all lines of the same question back to Sylvanas because frankly, starting a war on suspicion alone - without even trying to reasses or replenish at least for a reasonable amount of time is as much in need of critical assessment as the hammer that continues to chip on Baine’s shell.

Same thing again. Part of - or at least I can guess - what Baine is doing is for the good of the Horde’s set of philosophy. And whilst Sylvanas has the answers to this, we can only guess with what Baine has.

Why?

Because compared to Sylvanas, Baine does not have:

  • An internal dialogue that explains his goals.
  • Does not have a dedicated arc devoted to his actions.
  • Does not have the chance to say nor explain his peace numerous times. Beyond being allowed the chance to flail his arms???

We also have Garona killing Orcish tribes with a set of poisoned daggers that immediately warp and disfigure wounds to the point that they become unrecognizable.

That’s a precedent to another virtue of Horde concept of honour. Try again.

To this, at least, I agree.

But again, I don’t see Baine’s actions in any way prioritized first out of honour.

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150

Anduin was the leader of the Alliance at the time they were texting with Baine. It is refered in Before the Storm Novel, and Sylvannas talks to him alone basically saying, “I know u guys are texting. Stop texting him now”

Which is direct and fair if anything. And then Baine goes and pulls this off… tch tch tch

151

If she failed to mind control one person previously, it does mean that either she has inadequate power on knowledge to reach that goal. That could’ve changed and we shall see what happens next. Even then, there’s no one to exploit the chaos, and it’s unlikely she’ll kill more than Katherine, without significant inside support, but all of this is speculation.

Fair points, but as Hachak pointed out, Sylvanas did start the war and put the entire Horde in peril. If the interest’s of the warchief go against that of the member races of the Horde, then I fail to see why they would follow the warchief in the first place.

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152

It’s true. Yes, you can have objections to it. It’s almost mandatory for someone of Baines mindset to do so.
Now, how you react is key here.

Do so inappropriately, and you risk having your actions getting tagged just as noxious as the ones you oppose.
That’s why I agree with OP here, and that’s why I hate Baines current portrayal.

If he doesn’t like Sylvanas, challenge her openly. Take the risk yourself, instead of going behind everyone else’s back in order to avoid consequences.
The only time we had a glimpse of said attitude is when he at least acknowledged his role in all this upon being accused openly.
But that’s to little to late.

Cairne slapped Garrosh across his orc face and demanded instant duel. Baine decided to go behind Garrosh equivalent to undermine the faction actions as a whole.

On one hand we have a honest declaration of intent, that minimises collateral damage and embraces the whole responsibility of ones acts…and then we have what Baine did. Which is an almost exact opposite of all the above.

I’m not arguing about Baine doing anything against Sylvanas. I’m arguing against how he did so and how said actions are apparently being marketed as the ‘good way’ of doing stuff.
I disagree profoundly with that.

Specially given how it affects the rest of the faction.

Okey, I’ll quote a single paragraph that I feel is rather representative of how Baine thinks:

“I do not wish to misunderstand you, so forgive my repetition. You do not want Garrosh to be executed by this court, but rather wish to challenge him in an honourable combat. And if he won that combat, you would see him forgiven?”.
“He would need to earn his reputation back, but yes. If he were a victor, then he should have that chance. He had honour once. He could learn it again”.

Baine could barely refrain from shouting out in delight. This he understood. This he could support, and moreover, it was fair. He thought of his father, dying in a Mak’gora, and how Cairne would’ve approved. Despite his anger towards Garrosh, Baine was doing the right thing.

(A dialogue between him and Saurfang).

I can’t bring myself to reconcile this and the way he behaved in that questline.

They certainly were marketed that way for most.
And yes, I don’t think his actions were honourable at all.
Regardless of how justified they were on a more moral level.

153

Who actually cares about Sylvanas’ feelings anyway? People obsess over Sylvanas yet forget Queen Talanji, when it’s the latter who is far more important to these events.

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154

In both cases she lacked the time to complete her ritual. We have examples of Forsaken that she took advantage of during their transitory frenzied state in quests all over Silverpine.

She started it under a premise even one of the Hordes biggest honour paragons agreed upon.

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155

Irrelevant.

Still the most stupidest move ever designed! Sylvanas will go down as a Warchief…the most stupid, the most delusional and the psychotic.

She’s trying to be Arthas and by gods, I just hope Delaryn has a poisoned arrow ready for her and I hope I get to kill one of her precious Val’kyr.
Minairia, Savior of the Horde.

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156

Great inconsistensies. Where’d that Baine go? The toilet?

That Baine seems more interesting to talk about.

Okay yes, this is another point where we agree on.

But where we differ evidently is in his methods. That is where I can’t really dispute because you are validated to your own thoughts on the matter.

Then this is a mistake where we can’t find an answer to.

I do not argue that his actions were honourable, dishonourable or any of that kodo crap. But I am satisfied he is doing something honourable or not to change the aspects that stand with great difficulty to his principles.

Him doing nothing I say is, for one, out of character for him lesser than doing… whatever this is he’s doing now.

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158

Him doing something is a good start, but then he gets arrested.

I think we need to stop deluding ourselves into thinking that Sylvanas will be Warchief after this. Teldrassil was Arthas/Garrosh 2.0.

No amount of fandom story blizzard has for her will ever make the story convincing for her to stay on.
It’s a shame Azshara has to crash out with the Horde being a pinnacle of pure fandom story.

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159

I thought they were given free will after their frenzied state, which occured shortly after being raised or is that not the case anymore?

And a lot of her dialogue sounded like coercion, and makes no sense. Starting a war to prevent future wars sound like a load of bollocks to me

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160

Probably down the same one the Saurfang that vowed to challenge and kill any Warchief that took the Horde down a darker path, went.

The current Saurfang that flipped off the entire orc faction to go solo, pulled the chain.

——-

The rest, I understand and agree with your overall message.

161

It was an excuse to start a faction war.

Her paranoia that the Alliance were using Darnassus to story Azerite to use against the Horde was simply, just that.
Malfurion and Tyrande tell the players, after Illidan’s final message that they, basically, have to mend the world soul. Going to war with Sylvanas was not on their agenda.

And let’s not forget her cheap, hilarious dialogue throughout war of thorns. “Where did you fly away to, little bird?” Lol, trying to be Arthas and Garrosh and coming out with pathetic stuff like that…nothing more than a cheap, try-hard, cartoony villain.
If she wants to be a villain and still be female, she needs to log onto AskAzshara. com

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163

Start a war to address past grievances and take advantage of a vulnerability moment, isn’t bollocks.
Trying to secure the future during an inflection point and before the power balance shifts against you is reasonable.

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164

You know who else thought like that on the 7th of December, 1941?

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165

All on paranoia.

She’s a failure. You might enjoy bad story because it’s Sylvanas, but the rest of us don’t.

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166

Maybe our warchief shouldn’t start a costly war which may turn badly on us, and which might ferment dissent within the Horde, and instead seek a diplomatic measure to avoid such a significant shift in the balance of power.

She doesn’t show great foresight if she does not consider every possible outcome.

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167

You don’t need to Godwin Law the argument in order to draw parallels.
Genn had a similar approach in Stormheim.

Turning the other cheek and ignoring past grievances isn’t the kind of stuff Horde races do that often. And for that matter, not even the Alliance.

And you don’t have to put all blame at Sylvanas feet. The honourable segment of the Horde, represented by Saurfang, agreed on said premise too.

But as this is rather sidetracking, I’ll leave it there.

Edit: Missed one

Who said I enjoyed bad story? Or that even cared about having this sort of story in the first place?

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