Like I said (and you ignored.)
It’s irrelevant.
It was one of the most stupid moves to have ever left the Horde leadership house. It’s like Theresa May’s Surrender Brexit Deal.
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Sticking up for a bad story which was used to only start a faction war with the most laughable dialogue from any Warchief ever.
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Technically, Imperial Japan does not qualify for Godwin’s Law. Regretfully, I have to accept they weren’t fascists either but a kind of mix of military, as civilian led, under the Emperor.
Ah yes, the infamous Genn Greymane burning of Undercity. Desperate to prevent Forsaken strategic superiority he bombed the Lordaeron Fleet. Even Nathanos barely made out out alive, as Greymane was targeting all Horde that he could reach and not a single person.
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Thats a big and healthy post there 
With your 1st point I can tell you that Baine has shown dishonor when he blamed his own actions on Pirates and not standing up for them. Its bit cowardly. But as I said before, I see no dishonor in letting Derek go. Him killing Derek on the spot or letting him go would result in same outcome for Horde - disrupting the “allies” plan in times of war, when Horde is losing the war. The severity of treason doesnt change, it just makes him look Alliance sympathiser, which he is regarding Jaina and Anduin. He had somewhat friendly relationship with them before Theramore happened and he still kept writing Anduin from that point on. Is he dishonorable because of that? I dont think so.
Baine has no problem with non honorable actions, he has problem with Sylvanas as Warchief single handidly playing around with Horde and lying to them - doing morally abhorant things which reflects on ALL nations of Horde. Sylvanas disregarding everyone who would oppose her and rule the Horde with iron fist. Having no understanding to what other nations want.
As you said it she is not honorable character and she has never been. Her moral code is close to nonexistant and her loyalties are her own, we have seen that from vanilla WoW. Why should anyone follow the leader who does not understand what her people stand for. Only version of Sylvanas ever using her own (forsaken) people was to keep herself alive, a.k.a. meatwall. What has she shown so far that she will not treat Horde the same way.
Horde never had any structure and always had been ruled very similar to old Horde tribes, with strongest alpha in the lead of their pack and every time someone had the strength and will to oppose the warchief they did, it was anarchy but it is based on strenght. You never saw that in Thralls Horde because Trolls, Tauren and Orcs are very like minded, Thrall lead Horde in accordance to their mindset, where all three nations were in agreement and respected. While Blood Elves needed protection and preservation for their nation they were down to whatever if it meant their safety and recovery. As Sylvanas did her own things in EK never truly having loyalty to Horde. And before Thrall left situation with Theramore was fixing thats why Thrall, Baine and Vol’jin had somewhat friendly relationship with Jaina and in the end saw Varian as honorable leader. As soon as Horde was left to Garrosh the conflict between these 4 parties began to arise. And since then Horde has been having crisis of identity because they dont have Warchief that all their nations will follow, unite under a single cause. Vol’jin was such but he was killed off to start this bull cr@p faction war.
Cheers!
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Baine actually has two options, as a leader of Taurens:
- Makgora with Warchief, like his father did. This option was discussed 100500 times. IMAO, Baine was just too cowardly to direct opposition.
- He can take Taurens out of the Horde. He said a lot of pathetic words to Jaina, but not to Sylvanas. All this “out of my nature” stuff. Why not to say “We, Taurens, don’t support the war, we are hippies, nothing to do in Horde for now”? Actually, this move would be most effective anti-Sylvanas, because at least orcs and trolls may support Baine and leave Horde too. In cascade way this would takes all power from Sylvanas hands. But this move is too hard for Baine too.
Actually Baine is one of the most disgusting types of characters from my point of view. Hypocrite who justifies his cowardice with sweet words about peace and love.
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Yes it was. Derek was innocent. He was forced into the war, tortured and brainwashed, all for an impossible asassination plot. This was state-sanctioned torture of the innocent. Stopping that is one of the most honorable things you can do.
That would be functionally no different from what he did, minus starting a brawl on the ship. At least now Derek is free to choose how to exist as undead, like the forsaken are supposed to.
Not sure if you know what it is.
Like, he already told her to stop, and she ignored him. She is an insane person who does not give a rat’s as* about honor. She could not be reasoned with.
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I told my general to stop and he didnt listen. Of course I am entitled to overrule him…yeah, right
I am sure this is what you do in your job too, you tell your boss what to do and when he doesn’t listen to you, of course you do whatever you want, because it’s honourable ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
Baine had options to maintain his honour, but he chose a treacherous avenue, so he is a filthy traitor. As an example he could have:
- Challenged Sylvanas to a duel. We don’t know if Sylvanas would be fair, or if Baine would have a chance of winning, but it would be very old-horde like
- Take Taurens out of the Horde. Join the alliance even and eat weed ha ha
- Discuss the issue with the other race leaders and have them confront Sylvanas altogether. It is clear Sylvanas is not the almighty leader who doesn’t care about what the public thinks. She tries to avoid punishing important horde figures repeatedly. She wouldn’t have a choice of ignoring the majority of the faction leaders, especially given how the recent past with Garosh played out.
If (IF) the other race leaders agree with Baine, they could even direct Sylvanas, but do they have the backbone to do it? Do they really care? It feels that they are more worried about internal strife than the war itself.
So the main question here is can you turn cows into forsaken ?? This, I would love to see
Ps: thousands have died in this war and the our moral issue is brainwashing your opponent’s recently turned forsaken brother. An action that if it worked, would have saved many more horde lives (Derek ended up getting close to Jaina anyway, if he was a kind of a bomb wouldnt he have killed her?). Because of course it’s moral to send troops into war to die but immoral to brainstorm and send a single person to die.
In my eyes they are both immoral and that is war.
Why the f**k does Baine risk Horde just for one (and what a particular one!) individual while others die by the hundreds?!
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This wasn’t the first time. He warned Jaina about the attack on Theramore and screwed the Horde over big time. I just hope that Sylvanas will be smarter than Garrosh and gets rid of him.
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Well, yes, you are right. That is a legal procedure in martial law. Soldiers are obliged to stop their commanders, if they are using their authority to harm the innocent. It is why the “just following orders” excuse is frowned upon.
We know Sylvanas would not be fair, and why would she ever agree to that?
Which does nothing to save Derek and weakens the Horde.
This is a good point, albeit it would take quite some time, by which it could be too late, and he could not be certain everyone else would agree, or that Sylvanas would quit even if everyone told her to. I doubt the rest of the Horde leaders would risk losing the entire forsaken to save one forsaken.
Jaina’s response to seeing Derek was revulsion and suspicion. He would never have been allowed to get close to her. Had he not been freed, it would not have saved any Horde lives. Arguably, more would have fallen to a now very angry Jaina.
He gives his reasons in the cinematic.
His pointless and corny semantics don’t count as a reason
The way you express this makes you look really bad. There is truth in what you are trying to say, but just who is innocent? Or is there any laws that govern wars and human rights in the wow universe?
Yes, right now in our world it would not be inconceivable to disobey orders, however in the past you would simply be executed. Especially on a military coalition disobeying its leader.
How do “we” know that? And who is ‘we’?
Who gives a … about Derek? Who the … is Derek for the Horde? He traded “Derek’s” life for Zelling’s plus some Horde INNOCENT soldiers! Seems like a fair trade… NOT.
Because he is Jaina’s brother maybe his life is heavier than of the Horde people sacrificed?
That’s why you start this earlier. Baine didnt start having issues about Sylvanas yesterday.
Again, who do we know that? She doesn’t even dare/want to punish anyone in the Horde however stupid he is. She knows what happened to the last Horde leader who didnt listen to the race leaders.
Again, are you being . . . . naive maybe?
Maybe they are right? Maybe if the rest of the race leaders think of that way, maybe it’s not worth killing Zelling and the guards and sabotaging the whole Horde faction for one forsaken?
But he boarded the ship, or was close enough. A bomb from that close? Still, there could be a better plan, everyone knows Jaina would be suspicious. You can’t just a plan you dont know about, nor expect it to be common knowledge before it’s realisation.
Because Jaina is not angry the whole BFA so far, this would make her loose her mind…yeah, right
And so many people agree that he is a hypocrite traitor
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Because that would have somehow been less traitorous? Wut?
Baine was very well acting under his own firm belief of how the Horde should carry itself, though he has directly worked towards the detriment of the Horde in order to do this and he’s aware that what he has done will have repercussions. I think this is very much the “Vol’jin’s assassination” moment of MoP 2: Titan Blood Boogaloo. I honestly don’t think Baine would have stood a chance in Mak’gora and he would have been throwing his life away.
Either way, the Horde would have ended up fractured and splitting at the seams as is happening now.
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Saying that harming innocents is bad makes me look bad?
I was arguing from the principle that military figures using their atuthority to harm innocent people (those not partaking or benefitting from the war) is historically frowned upon, and that stopping them from doing so is considered honorable. I myself think so, though I cannot speak for everyone. But if doing so is not honorable, what is?
By we I mean the playerbase. And we know Sylvanas would not fight fairly because she never does.
Baine does. That is why he did all this.
I never stated that as fact, but as something Baine would have to take in mind. The Horde and Sylvanas are in a symbiotic relationship. They are losing the war, and the Alliance is not going to be merciful this time. They Horde needs Sylvanas and the forsaken, just as she needs them. Neither can afford to lose the other, and as such, unless one did something completely unacceptable, they are locked in a perpetual cycle of co-dependence. If Sylvanas refuses, what should the rest of the Horde do? Punish her? How? Attack her? And start a civil war when the Alliance is breathing down their neck? And as you said:
The other Horde leaders may not even care.
The plan was never to use a bomb, but have them bring him into their fold so he could murder them in their sleep. Besdies, he only got that close because of Baine.
Last we saw her, she wanted to not push the advantage against the Horde. This could have changed her mind.
Ultimately, Derek would not have been able to kill Jaina except in the case of a miracle, and he never wanted to be part of any of this. The idea was to have the Produmoore’s attempt to rescue him. He would likely have died before ever getting close to her, considering how she reacted to seeing him. And even if it could work, what gives the Horde the right to pull someone out of their peaceful rest, force them into a conflict they never asked for, hold them against their will, torture them and remove their free will, so they can kill their own beloved family for the sake of some petty revenge in a war they themselves started?
Alright lots to get to, sorry in advance for the wall’o’text and I will do what I can to make my points as succinctly as I can.
@Zarao Thanks, I am an infrequent poster I guess. I pop in for a bit once every other year or so. Typically only when the story is particularly interesting or the game in a place that leaves a lot to talk about. All my toons start with the name Kix, so if you see that it’s a fair chance it may have been me.
@Hachak The best I can answer the first point is from the perspective of someone for whom honour means a great deal. Now this is relevant to what @Beshird said also in that well what is honour and/or does that make one right? As most have pointed out it’s a tricky word to pin a concrete definition to, but the one thing I think that is indisputable is; it doesn’t matter what you think of your own honour. It’s not that kind of thing. It’s something credited to you by others, both friend and foe, for your actions or lack of. That to me is the crux of why this is a topic to debate because it doesn’t matter if Baine thinks he is honourable or not, it’s what everyone else thinks because this is clearly at the very least flirting with yet another horde civil war of which “Honour” would be a significant reason of. I am disgusted at the idea that Baine’s camp gets to claim itself as the path of honour following these events.
In any case, the best definition I can attach to honour is; Living forthrightly, setting an exemplar standard of how to live for your people. There is certainly some wiggle room for its meaning to different races but that’s not what I am talking about and it’s a side track which I don’t care about right now. I disagree with Saurfang’s behaviour but I do think he is still the most honourable soul left in the warcraft world currently. He wanted no part of Sylvanas’ Horde, so he stood forth to meet his enemies with the intention to die fighting for his people. That’s pretty awesome, even if you disagree with his horde ideals, can’t say that’s not a damn manly/orcly way to go down.
As for What should Baine have done? If he wants to stand and die on the honour hill, then he should have smashed Derek’s corpse before Sylvanas could reanimate it and said something to the effect of “We’re not doing that and if you don’t like it we can either have a Mak’gora right here or I can leave, high mountain will no doubt come with us and all your new recruits will second guess their loyalties but you pick. Go for it.” If she cheats in the Mak’gora then everyone questions her, and that’s a way bigger loss to her than Derek Proudmoore who was really nothing more than a spite piece to Jaina for Rastakhan.
Lastly being honourable is not the same as doing the “right” thing, Anduin and Thrall are the front runners for those who behave the most “right” way, but both have done things that could call their honour into question. In my opinion honour is completely different.
@Coupedegrace There is no dishonour is letting a prisoner of war go, there is however in sabotaging an ally, that’s what Baine did and that is dishonourable.
Baine’s problem is that Sylvanas fights using methods his disagrees with.
However like I said, she has fought this way since before Baine ever knew her, so he’s picking a hell of a time to decide to be dramatic about it. It’s not unfair to point out that the alliance just kicked the horde’s derriere using methods about as honourable as Sylvanas’ own. Albeit less morally reprehensible. This being the case how can returning Derek to the alliance be justified if Sylvanas’ lack of honour is so problematic? Baine commits a double standard on two levels when taking action against Sylvanas. That’s why he’s a ridiculous loser.
@Minairia I see where you are coming from but this war started before Talanji got involved and though they are still powerful without their fleet the Zandalari are vulnerable. With the loss of fleet and king I feel that this renders Talanji at the mercy of the horde with the alliance being fairly indiscriminate by attacking factions even just associated with the horde. Even the Vulpera. Anyone who attacks those cuties are just monsters…
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It doesn’t matter.
Any forms of revenge should have been done on Queen Talanji’s terms. It’s not Sylvanas or Nathanos who’ve lost a father. They take it upon themselves to seek revenge that the Queen herself is not all too pleased with, because their actions are the same as what happened with Rezan.
It’s not up to them to decide which revenge is best, because even if Jaina did die, during the battle, it was under Talanji’s order and she would not have given the order for the Valkyr to raise her back into undeath.
If people wish to simply forget all about Talanji and disregard her as a leader, that’s fine, that’s up to you, but I will remind everyone that Talanji is Queen of the Zandalari, not the corpses.
I disagree, I think it matters entirely.
She wants to join the horde and the horde’s chain of command comes from the Warchief on down. She can’t really play the card that she has a problem with undeath given what Bwonsamdi did or that a number of her allies are undead themselves. Therefore it would be quite something for her having joined the horde literally at around that same time, to impose her prefences on a covert operation that required neither her troops nor her resources.
She is an important figure for absolute certain and there’s something to be said that perhaps Jaina should be left to be taken care of by Talanji. But Jaina is also the most dangerous entity to the horde of the alliance and that being the case she needs to be neutralised now. Horde lives are being lost. Talanji wants to enact her plan I am all for it, but so far she doesn’t have one.
No, this isn’t about that.
It’s the fact that she is drawing the parallels between what happened with Rezan, whom she was a Priestess for. She is more than entitled to feel uneasy about what has happened and Bwonsamdi isn’t an argument either as he has no love for the corpse’s actions.
It really doesn’t because neither of the walking corpses should be urging more conflict and hatred, whereby we know who would likely get the first point of attack. That being the Zandalari, due to them being in a weakened state.
It should have been Talanji’s rule since Zandalar is her land. Not Sylvanas’. Not Nathanos. Her’s. She makes the rules, she enacts what should be done.
She wants revenge, but not at great costs, where she is forced to confront the horrors on what Yazma did to Rezan. Not at that time, where the grief is still near.
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The last time a Bloodhoof High Chieftain ran into an honour duel, they died to a poison. Their home was then invaded and taken over by opportunists, of which the Horde did not help with, and the people was left on the verge of splitting apart.
Why would Baine want a repeat of that? Especially with no child of his own to take over?
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It’s war, it’s entirely about that. Talanji’s feelings are not more important the other people’s lives. That’s the argument in it’s simplest form.
@Rangoor The last time a Bloodhoof ran into an honour duel it was also over accusing someone of an action that person did not make. How honourable would it have been to have killed Garrosh over such a reason I wonder.
In any case if Baine wants to stand up for what he believes to be honourable and/or right, that’s almost universally not the same as doing what is easy. Decisions decisions…