Baine Rescue Cinematic

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

Oh boy, another Sylvanas debate! Ages since I saw one of those!

[Evenmourn-the-shatar (Evenmourn)]

That is not helping you get the aegis. That gets you no closer to the aegis. They are just doing their job as medical staff. Odyn’s beard, that is a reach!

It would be difficult to claim the Aegis if you’re dead and the Forsaken ensure you aren’t killed and can thus continue doing it.

Are you seriously using gameplay design to argue about characters’ motives? Odyn sends one of his ravens to lead you to him, and the forsaken do nothing. But again, you have not played through the zone, so you would not know. Odyn is the one who gets you on the chase, not Sylvanas.

Sylvanas is the first one to reference the Aegis in the quest right before the intro scenario Horde-side and that it’s based around passing trials. That Odyn then gets you there so you can compete along with all the others competing doesn’t really matter, especially since as already mentioned and as you ignored, Odyn was fine with having Skovald get it should he be able to defeat you in the dungeon.

The quest order is relevant because if, right after Helheim, as you can do in-game you complete the Aegis quests there’s no springboard for the Forsaken to get on. We don’t know whether Hall of Valor or Skold-Ashil happens first.

And this proves they are all slaves, how?

It doesn’t, but they are born and raised in a personality cult where the highest virtue is becoming bound to Odyn as a val’kyr. Hence the process about resignation, once they’re bound, they’re slaves. They might be happier being slaves to their deity than to Sylvanas, but that doesn’t really change whether they’re slaves or not.

True. And using the Val’kyr to build an army of the spirits of Azeroth’s strongest vrykul so they may defend their world even in death is an even nobler motive than that.

That’s true, but since we never see them do anything quantifiable after Odyn is freed the nobility of the motive is a bit lost.

What are you talking about? You are not making an argument here, nor tying it to anything we have talked about.

I am referencing your talking about how the Horde using slavery or enslaving mindless undead being morally different things to enslaving ones with minds, when that’s not the case.

[Miyaji-stormscale]

Oh boy, another Sylvanas debate! Ages since I saw one of those!

Sshhhh

Considering the absolute desperate ignorance you employ to defend her, it is pretty obvious where this comment is coming from

It’s really hard to show you how biased you are, due to that said bias.
It’s also hard to argue, because every time it feels so easy for you and me and whoever else partakes to slip to his own reality and view of things. You are not being a spaz on purpose, it’s your respectful opinion, but it’s darn biased, as is probably mine.

Sylvanas did not betray the horde. She betrayed the Horde that alliance envisions. Does this make sense to you?

A big bulk of horde players (and the populace by Lorthemar) is in favour of Sylvanas. This speaks for itself.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

It would be difficult to claim the Aegis if you’re dead and the Forsaken ensure you aren’t killed and can thus continue doing it.

Yeah, it will be difficult to do it you starve, so did the guy who sold you food also aid you in getting the aegis?
You are conflating enabling and assisting. Allowing you to do something and making that job easier are two different things. By the time you are dead you character has no idea how to get the Aegis, nor is that their major concern. When you are dead, you cannot possibly hold the task of getting the aegis. It means nothing to say you do. Thus, resurrecting you does not help you get the aegis, because you were not in a state were such was possible. It means nothing to say a corpse has a job! This is so fundamanetal. Why do I have to explain this to you? They are not healing you so you can get the aegis, they are healing you because that is their job. The fact that you would reach this much, and only use only this, as evidence that Sylvanas’ fleets aids you substantially in the quest for the aegis, shows that deep down, you know she did next to nothing, and is only arguing for it because you want it to be true.

Sylvanas is the first one to reference the Aegis in the quest right before the intro scenario Horde-side and that it’s based around passing trials. That Odyn then gets you there so you can compete along with all the others competing doesn’t really matter, especially since as already mentioned and as you ignored, Odyn was fine with having Skovald get it should he be able to defeat you in the dungeon.

That Odyn gets you on the journey matters a lot, because Sylvanas was gone, did not tell you how to get the aegis and her forces did not help. The player would never have known where to start if not for Odyn. The fact that you state otherwise is ridiculous and shows how desperate you are to exxagerate Sylvanas’ involvement in the quest. In fact, go to Stormheim for once ad try get the aegis without talking to Odyn’s raven. Please.

Also, if Odyn was fine with Skovald getting the Aegis, he would not have tasked the player to get it! He flat out tells Skovald he is not worhy of the aegis in the dungeon! Christ, you truly know nothing of this storyline.

The quest order is relevant because if, right after Helheim, as you can do in-game you complete the Aegis quests there’s no springboard for the Forsaken to get on. We don’t know whether Hall of Valor or Skold-Ashil happens first.

It is not releveant, because the Halls of Valor storyline does not involve any forsaken.

It doesn’t

Good, then we agree. Sylvanas attempted to enslave people who have not been proven to be slaves.

but they are born and raised in a personality cult where the highest virtue is becoming bound to Odyn as a val’kyr. Hence the process about resignation, once they’re bound, they’re slaves. They might be happier being slaves to their deity than to Sylvanas, but that doesn’t really change whether they’re slaves or not.

So them enthusiastically serving Odyn as slaves is morally equivalent to forced servitude under Sylvanas. How are your arms this long?

I am referencing your talking about how the Horde using slavery or enslaving mindless undead being morally different things to enslaving ones with minds, when that’s not the case.

That is legit the principle forsaken culture was founded upon. Why are you commenting on lore you know nothing about? There is more to the story than your narrow vision.

It’s really hard to show you how biased you are, due to that said bias.

It is really hard to show you that I am in fact biased, due to the fact that you only made that claim because you are biased against me. See how this works?

It’s also hard to argue, because every time it feels so easy for you and me and whoever else partakes to slip to his own reality and view of things.

Speak for yourself.

You are not being a spaz on purpose

True. In fact, I am not being one at all.

it’s your respectful opinion, but it’s darn biased, as is probably mine.

The fact that you say I am biased, while you are just “probably biased” proves that you are biased. See how easy this is?

Sylvanas did not betray the horde. She betrayed the Horde that alliance envisions. Does this make sense to you?

Yes. It is not true, but it makes sense to me. Whenever you want to argue for why it is true, I am here. Until then, enjoy fighting the war Sylvanas promised she would prevent by seizing Teldrassil.

A big bulk of horde players (and the populace by Lorthemar) is in favour of Sylvanas. This speaks for itself.

No. No it does not. Treason is not defined by popularity. You are truly desperate if you would use popularity as a measurement for betrayal. If you are this desperate, you must realize deep down that Sylvanas betrayed the Horde and you are onyl making these desperate defenses because you do not want to accept the fact. Why not just admit to the things you know are true?

[Daelinna-argent-dawn]

Sylvanas did not betray the horde. She betrayed the Horde that alliance envisions.

And she betrayed the actual Horde back in Cataclysm.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

That was just the Horde the Alliance envisions, the one where Garrosh told people not to us the blight. That never actually happened. It was just something the Alliance envisioned.

[Evenmourn-the-shatar (Evenmourn)]

They are not healing you so you can get the aegis, they are healing you because that is their job. The fact that you would reach this much, and only use only this, as evidence that Sylvanas’ fleets aids you substantially in the quest for the aegis, shows that deep down, you know she did next to nothing, and is only arguing for it because you want it to be true.

Your telepathy is pretty powerful, but no, I’m just observing basic fact, i.e that without Forsaken assistance, the Horde PC dies at the start of Stormheim and he can’t claim the Aegis. The rest of your laboriously long statement shows the same point - your claim is that it’s impossible to get to the Aegis without speaking to the raven, which is obviously true, since that’s the game mechanic involved, but that doesn’t mean that your character would’ve been lost without the tip-off in a story sense to the point where’d be incapable of doing it. Ditto, you now append the word ‘substantial’ to my claim that the Forsaken help you as Sylvanas says, possibly because that’s an easier strawman to knock down. I made no claim that the Forsaken were a substantial element only that where you encountered them on the main Aegis story they assisted you. And as you later see, I drew a distinction between the Aegis story part of Stormheim and the separate Skold-Ashil story.

Your comment as regards Odyn wanting to stop Skovald is words, not reflected by action. Skovald is able to enter the Halls reasoning that he’s passed the trials, despite cheating in each one of them, then gets to fight you while Odyn doesn’t intervene. Odyn allows said fight to take place. Your claim about Odyn saying he’s unworthy is fanfiction.

God-King Skovald yells: No! I, too, have proved my worth, Odyn. I am God-King Skovald! These mortals dare not challenge my claim to the aegis!
Odyn yells: The vanquishers have already taken possession of it, Skovald, as was their right. Your protest comes too late.

Odyn does not dispute that Skovald has proven his worth, only that he’s too late protest it on procedural grounds and even then he lets him fight for it and presumably lets him enter the Halls in the first place, even though he’s alone and he could’ve fried Skovald at any moment. Supposing that the PC lost, Skovald would’ve gotten the Aegis.

So them enthusiastically serving Odyn as slaves is morally equivalent to forced servitude under Sylvanas. How are your arms this long?

I’m glad you contradicted your own spin in your earlier sentence by admitting they were slaves, but no, I’m not claiming that as you can see in the quote itself. They’d be happier being slaves under Odyn than being Sylvanas’ slaves, but at the end of the day they’re still slaves and I take no moral umbrage with Sylvanas wanting to use them to make her people immortal as we know she intended.

That is legit the principle forsaken culture was founded upon. Why are you commenting on lore you know nothing about? There is more to the story than your narrow vision.

No, the Forsaken were founded on the freedom of the Forsaken themselves. They apply a naked double standard in free will in all other cases - this applies to the living, which they have banshees possess to found their state in the first place, the humans they lobotomize and the people they enslave for manual labour. The same applies to undead - from abominations and ghouls to the farmers raised for the sole purpose of being thrown at the enemy to die in Andorhal and the mages in Ambermill. They give Forsaken post-rage state the choice on whether to serve or die, this has never been applied to any others and the val’kyr are empathically not Forsaken.

[Miyaji-stormscale]

They are not healing you so you can get the aegis, they are healing you because that is their job.

Sereluna logic! Well, if they sent soldiers with the PC, Sereluna would say “they are not helping you, they are not fighting for/with you, they fight because it’s their job”
This is running what in circles must feel like

You could become a pretty good advocate maybe, for today’s standards.

“Sylvanas ordered you to do it, but she didn’t take you by the hand, so she didnt really help you and it was not her intent that you succeeded” unbiased logic!

I applaud you though, you show how someone can screw/skew logic and arguments

[Aralë-kazzak]

sylvannas debates basicly keep the forum alive at this point

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Your telepathy is pretty powerful, but no, I’m just observing basic fact, i.e that without Forsaken assistance, the Horde PC dies at the start of Stormheim and he can’t claim the Aegis.

No, you stated that by doing so, they aided you in getting the aegis, which they did not, because, as I explained in my post, ad which you either failed to understand or chose to ignore, you cannot possible hold the task of getting the aegis, when you are dead. Again, you conflate enabling and aiding. Why are you restating propositions I have already refuted.

Imagine this: While doing some paper work, I have a heart attack and is rushed to the hospital where the doctors heal me. Do the doctors aid me in my paper work? No! Did the heal me so I could do my paper work? No! Is the doctor doing my paper work? No!

Sure, they player would have been dead if not for them, but they were not sent there to resurrect the player so they could do their mission. They were standard military staff doing their job.

laboriously long statement

Big words you got.

but that doesn’t mean that your character would’ve been lost without the tip-off in a story sense to the point where’d be incapable of doing it

Yes. Yes it does. Again, I keep telling you, you cannot write about story you have not experienced. The player would have no clue where to go if not for Odyn. Please, just play the story.

Ditto, you now append the word ‘substantial’ to my claim that the Forsaken help you as Sylvanas says, possibly because that’s an easier strawman to knock down. I made no claim that the Forsaken were a substantial element only that where you encountered them on the main Aegis story they assisted you.

You claimed that the fleet went there to get the Aegis, so obviously that would mean a substantial amount of them would try to do that. Sure, the one forsaken you meet on the aegis story helps you out, but the majority of the fleet aids Sylvanas go after Eyir.

Your comment as regards Odyn wanting to stop Skovald is words, not reflected by action.

It is exactely the opposite. He tries to stop Skovald at every turn.

Skovald is able to enter the Halls reasoning that he’s passed the trials, despite cheating in each one of them, then gets to fight you while Odyn doesn’t intervene. Odyn allows said fight to take place. Your claim about Odyn saying he’s unworthy is fanfiction.

You are assuming Odyn could have stopped him.

Odyn does not dispute that Skovald has proven his worth, only that he’s too late protest it on procedural grounds and even then he lets him fight for it and presumably lets him enter the Halls in the first place, even though he’s alone and he could’ve fried Skovald at any moment. Supposing that the PC lost, Skovald would’ve gotten the Aegis.

I misremembered the dialogue. Regardless, that does not prove he was fine with hading the Aegis to Skovald, only that he was willing to do so, according to the laws he had made.

And even if that were true, Sylvanas did nothing to change any of this.

I’m glad you contradicted your own spin in your earlier sentence by admitting they were slaves, but no

I did not. I only followed the logic of your statement. Try keep up with the conversation.

but at the end of the day they’re still slaves and I take no moral umbrage with Sylvanas wanting to use them to make her people immortal as we know she intended.

So you take no issue with Sylvanas forcing other people to do her bidding, against their will, to make people who should not have existed in the state they do anyway, immortal. How deep does her boot fit in your mouth?

No, the Forsaken were founded on the freedom of the Forsaken themselves.

Now you are just shifting the goalpost. We know this is not true due to the fact that they allowed other undead to join them.

They apply a naked double standard in free will in all other cases - this applies to the living, which they have banshees possess to found their state in the first place, the humans they lobotomize and the people they enslave for manual labour.

Exactly, a double standard to the living, not the undead.

The same applies to undead - from abominations and ghouls to the farmers raised for the sole purpose of being thrown at the enemy to die in Andorhal and the mages in Ambermill. They give Forsaken post-rage state the choice on whether to serve or die, this has never been applied to any others and the val’kyr are empathically not Forsaken.

All of whom are free to go as they wish once they regain their senses.

Sereluna logic! Well, if they sent soldiers with the PC, Sereluna would say “they are not helping you, they are not fighting for/with you, they fight because it’s their job”

If they are fighting for you to accomplish your goal, then obviously they are aiding you. Thise are completely differet situations. Do not pretend you know what I would say when you do not even understand the argument.

“Sylvanas ordered you to do it, but she didn’t take you by the hand, so she didnt really help you and it was not her intent that you succeeded” unbiased logic!

Sylvanas ordered you to do it, did not tell you where to start, did not help you, sent only a single soldier to aid you on part of the journey, so clearly, the fleet was not there to aid you in getting the Aegis. Stop embarassing yourself, you clearly have no idea what we are talking about.

I applaud you though, you show how someone can screw/skew logic and arguments

And you show how someone can refrain from using logic and arguments.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

sylvannas debates basicly keep the forum alive at this point

Unplug it then!

[Evenmourn-the-shatar (Evenmourn)]

No, you stated that by doing so, they aided you in getting the aegis, which they did not, because, as I explained in my post, ad which you either failed to understand or chose to ignore, you cannot possible hold the task of getting the aegis, when you are dead. Again, you conflate enabling and aiding. Why are you restating propositions I have already refuted.

You’ve refuted nothing. You’re drawing a semantic distinction to avoid facing up to the fact that without the Forsaken presence there, the PC dies and the Aegis can’t be claimed and that later in the same storyline, the Forsaken you do meet in the main Aegis story helps you out. They factually do aid you in claiming the Aegis, first by saving your life, then when the batrider helps you infiltrate the vrykul settlement.

That it was not their explicit intent to help you seize the Aegis by resurrecting you doesn’t mean they didn’t do so, especially since this entire premise is founded upon ignoring Sylvanas directly stating that the fleet is there to assist you in seizing the Aegis so they would have both action and intent.

Yes. Yes it does. Again, I keep telling you, you cannot write about story you have not experienced. The player would have no clue where to go if not for Odyn. Please, just play the story.

I have, that’s why I’m so aghast at how much you’re mangling it to be wrong so passionately. The gameplay mechanics are such that it’s impossible to proceed without the quest, but that doesn’t mean the PC couldn’t have logically come to the conclusion that he should’ve engaged in the trials that are public knowledge, given the amount of combatants.

Not that this is of any relevance, since I never made the claim that Odyn was less involved in the Aegis storyline that Sylvanas, only that the Forsaken did in fact aid you n that storyline and as a corollary, that Odyn is not Sylvanas’ moral superior.

You claimed that the fleet went there to get the Aegis, so obviously that would mean a substantial amount of them would try to do that.

As an authority on what I meant, I beg to differ. The fleet was indeed sent to get the Aegis and Sylvanas says as much. But the fleet is destroyed and scattered, so only the parties you actually meet up with and interact with have the capacity to do this, since you never interact with the others. And as already stated, those you do interact with on your way on the Aegis do assist. The substantial part is just a handy addition by yourself to dismiss this. The Forsaken only become involved with Sylvanas’ plan at the tail end of the zone in a separate story, whereas she has been doing everything up to that point alone as demonstrated. And, as I told you already, because of how quests are set up, by that point you might well have taken the Aegis as we have no canonical order as to which happens first.

You are assuming Odyn could have stopped him.

Obviously Odyn can stop him. He one-shots the priest when he asks about Xal’atath, he can one-shot Skovald as well. He just chooses to let Skovald fight for it instead. Now, he might’ve just blasted Skovald provided he won, but given that he didn’t challenge Skovald’s worthiness and operating on your own claim that he was operating on the basis of his rules, despite Skovald breaking them, then he would’ve been obligated to hand Skovald the Aegis after he killed us.

And even if that were true, Sylvanas did nothing to change any of this.

Well, yes, I never claimed she did, she says from the start that she personally is there for another reason and doesn’t involve herself in the Odyn plot. That’s not a good gotcha.

So you take no issue with Sylvanas forcing other people to do her bidding, against their will, to make people who should not have existed in the state they do anyway, immortal. How deep does her boot fit in your mouth?

Yes, because as far as we know the alternative to persisting as undead for the Forsaken is to go to hell when they die like Sylvanas did and suffer for eternity. As their leader, if she can do something to prevent them from going to hell, then not doing so would be a serious breach and turning them and herself immortal has the added benefit of eliminating the necessity of raising other people. To not do so because it’d require enslaving one entity would be a serious dereliction of that duty.

All of whom are free to go as they wish once they regain their senses.

They’re not meant to regain their senses. The farmers in Andorhal were raised to serve as fodder in their rage state. Ditto ghouls, abominations etc, who, as we know the former at least have souls, would also go to hell. That the Forsaken added the Val’kyr to their ranks (who are also slaves in being bound to Sylvanas, mind) doesn’t dispute this and wouldn’t disprove this reality even if they did, because that’d still be people they’re allowing to enter their society rather than outsiders. The Forsaken operate on the apex of an us-them mentality.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

You’ve refuted nothing. You’re drawing a semantic distinction to avoid facing up to the fact that without the Forsaken presence there, the PC dies and the Aegis can’t be claimed and that later in the same storyline, the Forsaken you do meet in the main Aegis story helps you out.

I have never denied that. What I denied was that the forsaken fleet was there to aid the player in getting the aegis. The fact that you strawman my argument like that, shows that you fail to make semantic distinctions. Also, drawing semantic distinctions is important, else the whole prospect of debate is pointles.

They factually do aid you in claiming the Aegis, first by saving your life, then when the batrider helps you infiltrate the vrykul settlement.

First and foremost, as I have stated and you failed to refute or even respond to, they did not aid you by resurrecting you. The player gets no closer to the aegis by coming back alive. Secondly, the fact that one single forsaken aids you on part of your quest does not prove the fleet was there to get the aegis. It proves they were willing to grant the bare minimum of help on the side.

Sylvanas literally tells the player they will have the full force of the forsaken at their backs in Stormheim. Once they start chasing the aegis, that number plummets. Is one forsaken that full force? No. It was all mouth-service.

That it was not their explicit intent to help you seize the Aegis by resurrecting you doesn’t mean they didn’t do so

True. The fact that just about every single one of them neglects to help you, after Sylvanas explicitly stated you would have the aid of all of them, proves they were not there to aid you get the aegis. If Sylvanas wanted the fleet to aid you get the aegis, she would have sent more than one person to help you, on the many missions that would have been easier with the aid of her army.

I have, that’s why I’m so aghast at how much you’re mangling it to be wrong so passionately. The gameplay mechanics are such that it’s impossible to proceed without the quest, but that doesn’t mean the PC couldn’t have logically come to the conclusion that he should’ve engaged in the trials that are public knowledge, given the amount of combatants.

So what you are saying is that Sylvanas expected the player to find out all about the trials by themselves? Then, that naturally means she is not helping them get the aegis.

Not that this is of any relevance, since I never made the claim that Odyn was less involved in the Aegis storyline that Sylvanas, only that the Forsaken did in fact aid you n that storyline and as a corollary, that Odyn is not Sylvanas’ moral superior.

One forsaken aided you. The vast majority of them did not. If the vast majority of the fleet is not aiding you, then they were not sent there to get the aegis.

Also, Sylvanas has commited genocide and houses elaborate torture camps. The fact that you do not think Odyn is morally superior says a lot about you and why you are arguin this.

The fleet was indeed sent to get the Aegis

Then why is only a single one of them helping you?!

The substantial part is just a handy addition by yourself to dismiss this.

No, it is there to highlight the requirement for your claim to be true, which you try to duck away from by making massive reached. You say “The ones you meet aid you” even though only one forsaken aid you in getting the aegis, and then use that as evidence the fleet was there to get the aegis, even though the player did all the work. I added that because you realized you lost the argument and tried to move the goalpost to being about whether the forsaken did something that allowed you to get the aegis, as opposed to going there to get the aegis.

The Forsaken only become involved with Sylvanas’ plan at the tail end of the zone in a separate story, whereas she has been doing everything up to that point alone as demonstrated.

So this army that could have helped you get the aegis, spent all their time twiddling their thumbs until Sylvanas reappeared? These arguments do not really work well in yout favor, do they?

Obviously Odyn can stop him. He one-shots the priest when he asks about Xal’atath, he can one-shot Skovald as well. He just chooses to let Skovald fight for it instead. Now, he might’ve just blasted Skovald provided he won, but given that he didn’t challenge Skovald’s worthiness and operating on your own claim that he was operating on the basis of his rules, despite Skovald breaking them, then he would’ve been obligated to hand Skovald the Aegis after he killed us.

We do not know that. Keep in mind that Skovald was doing the trials. There could be rules against direct interference from Odyn, just like how Helya was forbidden from keeping the player in Helheim. We do not know if Odyn allowed Skovald to do what he did because he wanted, or because he had to.

Well, yes, I never claimed she did

This entire argument is about whether she sent the fleet to get the Aegis! You claimed from the start that she did!

she says from the start that she personally is there for another reason and doesn’t involve herself in the Odyn plot.

That changed nothing. The fact that she herself does not involve herself in the plot, does not liberate her from the failure of not having her army aid the player.

Yes, because as far as we know the alternative to persisting as undead for the Forsaken is to go to hell when they die like Sylvanas did and suffer for eternity.

As far as we know, there are many different versions of the afterlife. Only Sylvanas and a handful others have been known to enter hell. If she wanted to be a good leader, she would form a deal with the Valarjar and not risk their wrath.

They’re not meant to regain their senses. The farmers in Andorhal were raised to serve as fodder in their rage state.

And, can therefor, in essence, be viewed as not having free will at inception, unlike the Val’kyr. I am happy to admit the forsaken will stretch their idea of free will a lot, but enslaving free willed creature like the Val’kyr, against their will.

Wait, why are we arguing about this? I do not even care about this topic. Whatever this topic is, I do not care what the answer is. You are probably right.

[Evenmourn-the-shatar (Evenmourn)]

I’ll take your word on that last part of your post of my being right on the side issue and just get to the main point, which is just as close to exhausting itself because of the definitional games you’re playing.

I challenge you on your semantics because you artificially raise the bar of what is considered aid whenever you’re shown that the Forsaken do lend assistance. The most comical part thus far is ignoring the resurrection of the PC which would render all further tasks impossible because it doesn’t directly point him towards the Aegis, despite the fact that if it weren’t for them, there would be no means for him to ever take the aegis.

You dismiss out of hand the point that Sylvanas flat out says that they’re there to aid you which would give them the necessary intent even under the parametres you’ve set for yourself.

Sylvanas literally tells the player they will have the full force of the forsaken at their backs in Stormheim. Once they start chasing the aegis, that number plummets. Is one forsaken that full force? No. It was all mouth-service.

Sylvanas cannot command her people telepathically while she’s in Helheim. Concurrently, the Forsaken on the other side of Stormheim have no means of knowing the PC is alive and are also not telepathic. The two groups of Forsaken encountered in the main Aegis storyline - those being the ones at the beach which resurrect you and the one that helps you enter the vrykul camp assist. Those you never interact with self-evidently don’t help you. To hold it against them that they were not aware of your location and set out to assist you is farcical when they weren’t even aware that you were alive or dead and Sylvanas herself was not there to instruct them.

So what you are saying is that Sylvanas expected the player to find out all about the trials by themselves? Then, that naturally means she is not helping them get the aegis.

Sylvanas said that her Forsaken would support the PC and those that he meets indeed do so. That Sylvanas does not use her knowledge from wowpedia to instruct the PC on the trials when she’s already gone off to do her mission alone as she said she would do isn’t something that can be used to argue the Forsaken didn’t assist.

You are arguing against claims I haven’t made, namely that the Forsaken assist the player substantially and now that Sylvanas hasn’t helped the player in specific ways.

One forsaken aided you. The vast majority of them did not. If the vast majority of the fleet is not aiding you, then they were not sent there to get the aegis.

Of course, because the majority of the fleet sunk and those who didn’t encounter you can’t /who your location and go to you. Everyone you do meet and is aware of you assists you, which is all that is required to make true my position that the Forsaken did offer assistance - not some arbitrary level of substantiaty, not on specific parametres you’ve decided upon now, but general assistance to the PC.

Also, Sylvanas has commited genocide and houses elaborate torture camps. The fact that you do not think Odyn is morally superior says a lot about you and why you are arguin this.

Sylvanas hadn’t committed genocide at the time and Odyn has the entirety of the kvaldir enslaved, built a cult of personality towards his own veneration and offed his adoptive daughter to use her a slave for his personality cult. Sylvanas later becomes more morally grey ™ than he is, but at the time of Stormheim they operate on about the same wavelength as undead leaders of personality cults. Except again, with the exception that Sylvanas has fought the Legion on-screen a great deal more than Odyn ever did. Even after we’d get into heavy moralistic debates on whether trying to off a species is worse than enslaving all of them.

The point re: other afterlives is moot. All undead we see go to Hell and as far as both we and more importantly Sylvanas in-story is concerned, that’s the fate that awaits them. Preventing however many the Forsaken are from eternal suffering at the cost of enslaving another being is not a simplistic moral dilemma.

We do not know that. Keep in mind that Skovald was doing the trials. There could be rules against direct interference from Odyn, just like how Helya was forbidden from keeping the player in Helheim. We do not know if Odyn allowed Skovald to do what he did because he wanted, or because he had to.

Odyn could kill the PC at will when the PC pissed him off. He could’ve killed Skovald as well especially if he was that convinced that procedurally the time has passed which eliminates any rule-based excuse. He allowed the fight to take place instead, which again, operating under your reasoning would mean that Odyn would also be obligated to give him the Aegis if he beat us. Meaning one of two things - either Odyn is obligated to do it and allowed for a series of events where a guy who violated all his rules and was a member of the Legion got the Aegis or that Odyn isn’t obligated to do it and just did it because it because of his survival of the fittest mentality.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

definitional games you’re playing.

The fact that I apply correct definitions, while you make them dubious to suit your argument is not me playing “definitional games”.

I challenge you on your semantics because you artificially raise the bar of what is considered aid whenever you’re shown that the Forsaken do lend assistance.

I do not “arbitrarily raise the bar”, you purposefully lower it. If you claim the fleet goes to Stormheim to get the aegis, then it is reasonable to expect a substantial amount of them to aid you, especially considering that so many of them have free time on their hands and Sylvanas said you would have the full force behind you. The fact that they send one person to aid you on part of your quest, and keep most of their force behind proves they were not there to get the Aegis, regardless of what Sylvanas said.

The most comical part thus far is ignoring the resurrection of the PC which would render all further tasks impossible because it doesn’t directly point him towards the Aegis, despite the fact that if it weren’t for them, there would be no means for him to ever take the aegis.

I never ignored that. Again, you are conflating enabling and aiding. They resurrected you because they have a job to resurrect people they can, not because it is their job to get the aegis. Again, this is like claiming a doctor is helping me do my paperwork by curing me of a disease that prevented me from doing so. Does it enable me to do my work? Yes. Does the paperwork get any closer to being finished? No. That is the distinction you refuse to accept.

You dismiss out of hand the point that Sylvanas flat out says that they’re there to aid you which would give them the necessary intent even under the parametres you’ve set for yourself.

I never ignored it. You are lying. My claim was that she lied. The fleet only gave the most bare minimum of aid, and were thus not there to get the aegis.

Sylvanas cannot command her people telepathically while she’s in Helheim.

Ignoring that you have not proven this, it matters not, as she could have given commands before entering Helheim.

Forsaken on the other side of Stormheim have no means of knowing the PC is alive and are also not telepathic.

And the ones on the same side knows they are alive, and suprisingly, overwhelingly do not help the player, almost like they were not sent out to do that.

The two groups of Forsaken encountered in the main Aegis storyline - those being the ones at the beach which resurrect you and the one that helps you enter the vrykul camp assist.

Which contradicts Sylvanas’ promise. The first was not done for the sake of helping you get the aegis, and the other came after several events in which the player could have used far more military aid, meaning neither of these instances prove the fleet was there to get the aegis.

Those you never interact with self-evidently don’t help you. To hold it against them that they were not aware of your location and set out to assist you is farcical when they weren’t even aware that you were alive or dead and Sylvanas herself was not there to instruct them.

So Sylvanas did not give them orders to aid you, and those who could aid you refused to do so unless you interacted with them? It is almost like, they were not in Stormheim to get the aegis.

Sylvanas said that her Forsaken would support the PC and those that he meets indeed do so.

The vast majority of them do nothing to help you get the aegis. They help you help Sylvanas. The fact that they aid you means nothing. If they were there to help you get the aegis, they would be actively helping you in your search, not just for when you happen to meet up with them. Come on, this is too desperate.

That Sylvanas does not use her knowledge from wowpedia to instruct the PC on the trials when she’s already gone off to do her mission alone as she said she would do isn’t something that can be used to argue the Forsaken didn’t assist.

True, which is why I never argued that. I argued that they are not there to get the aegis, which would have meant actually sending forces to aid you for whenever you needed them, and not just sending one person to help you out for a few minutes when asked.

You are arguing against claims I haven’t made

Pot, meet kettle.

namely that the Forsaken assist the player substantially and now that Sylvanas hasn’t helped the player in specific ways.

You claimed the fleet was sent to Stormheim to get the aegis. If they do nothing substantial to get the aegis, and Sylvanas does nothing to aid you, then clearly they were not there to get the aegis.

Of course, because the majority of the fleet sunk and those who didn’t encounter you can’t /who your location and go to you.

You do realize the forsaken were with you at the begin-Oh right, you did not play the zone, I forgot. It is not like they could have followed you after Sylvanas’ orders when you started following that raven or anything. No, they sat around and waited for Sylvanas, sending one person to aid you at one point. Clearly, they were there for the aegis.

which is all that is required to make true my position that the Forsaken did offer assistance - not some arbitrary level of substantiaty, not on specific parametres you’ve decided upon now, but general assistance to the PC.

Again, I am not contesting that. You keep red herring me with this strawman that I am arguing the forsaken gave no assistance. I am arguing that the fleet was not in Stormheim for the Aegis, which is what you originally claimed. The fact that some of them offer token assistance does not prove the fleet was there to get the aegis, especially considering that most of their presence involves them fighting the Alliance for Sylvanas. That is why you must provide evidence of them giving some substantial aid, as in, they aided you whenever you would have needed it and whenever they could, meaning they were in fact there in Stormheim for the Aegis. They do not. There are several tasks given to the player which could have been made easier with a forsaken army, which Sylvanas promised the player would receive, yet only one shows up.

Sylvanas hadn’t committed genocide at the time and Odyn has the entirety of the kvaldir enslaved

Of course not, because that never happened. What a weird comment to make.

Preventing however many the Forsaken are from eternal suffering at the cost of enslaving another being is not a simplistic moral dilemma.

It is f you have not even tried to bargain for aid. She went straight to slavert.

Odyn could kill the PC at will when the PC pissed him off. He could’ve killed Skovald as well especially if he was that convinced that procedurally the time has passed which eliminates any rule-based excuse.

Again, we do not know the specifics. Did Odyn kill the player while they were doing the trials? I mean, he can bring people back, so he may have done so, knowing the player could be returned.

It could be that he can kill a person if they insult him during the trial, and that Skovald did not insult him during his own trials inside the Halls. He may simply have let Skovald fight the players as a final test, with intent to kill him, should he win.

He allowed the fight to take place instead, which again, operating under your reasoning would mean that Odyn would also be obligated to give him the Aegis if he beat us.

No, that is not true according to my reasoning. He could simply have seen it as another trial for the player, and planned to kill Skovald should he succeed.

Ultimately, we do not know what specific rules and limitations apply to Odyn’s trials. It could be that he was free to do what he wanted, and simply felt honor bound to give Skovald a chance, or that he had to follow strict guidelines set by himself and Helya.

In the end, it does not matter, as he still wanted Skovald to not get the Aegis. The fact that someone does something under an oath, does not mean they are okay with doing it though it would have been foolish to do so.

[Evenmourn-the-shatar (Evenmourn)]

That is why you must provide evidence of them giving some substantial aid, as in, they aided you whenever you would have needed it and whenever they could, meaning they were in fact there in Stormheim for the Aegis. They do not. There are several tasks given to the player which could have been made easier with a forsaken army, which Sylvanas promised the player would receive, yet only one shows up.

This is why we’re wasting our time here. You continually shift goalposts and then accuse me of doing it as you invent claims. I refuse to accept your distinction because it’s a meme used to obscure evidence used against you. You presuppose that they’re not there to get the Aegis because parties that you never interact with and lack information on the Aegis, don’t know your location and were just the target of an attack that scattered them and left them without a functional chain of command up until the end don’t help you with the Aegis. At the same time you dismiss what help there is as either being invalid because it’s just doing their jobs - despite their jobs also involving seizing the Aegis, or not counting because they’re just there to help Sylvanas, like with the batrider, as though that is not also a component of the reason they are there.

We can go at this until the cows go home and still get nowhere, because the parametres you set are not standards I’ve ever claimed to attempt to prove - for example stating that the Forsaken aren’t really helping you because and take your pick:

1.When they resurrect you it’s because it’s their job, so even though you’d be dead otherwise they don’t help. Founded on the premise that Sylvanas lied and therefore they didn’t do it for that reason, instead of accepting that they do it as an assistance to the PC.

2.When they help you fly into the vrykul settlement, they’re just doing Sylvanas’ task (?).

3. Wait no, for the criteria of them helping you to be there, they have to continually provide you troops despite them not knowing you’re alive or dead, your location or having someone to instruct them prior.

These are all nothing but goalpost-raising, the last one being the funniest yet, to take away from the basic fact of what is said - that they helped the PC get the Aegis. You deny adding increasing arbitrary criteria to every component of this help as your argument unravels, to the point that I’m sure that if we were to continue you’d be asking me to provide a written affidavit of Sylvanas passed to every Forsaken to obligate them to do it and for the entire remaining fleet to converge on your location as they’d have determined from their telepathy.

On the other hand, you do your damndest to avoid the elephant in the room, namely that the fleet that sets sail is almost entirely destroyed in the very first quest and Sylvanas displaced, self-evidently meaning that the circumstances of what follow change.

The factual reality of the situation is, to state it for the tenth time from the beginning is that the Forsaken you encounter assist you in your task as Sylvanas claimed within that quest and that Odyn would have let Skovald take the Aegis - the last part you at least admit, though for him you seem to extend a very large latitude to obscure the basic reality that he would’ve either let Skovald take the aegis if he could beat you or let him kill you and then kill him to keep him from taking the aegis.

Those you don’t encounter and aren’t aware of your location obviously don’t. No substantiality, no telepathy required, no Forsaken army to materialize out of thin air after the fleet was blown to smithereens - assistance given by the ones actually there.

Re: Odyn so you can at least make some progress today:

It’s part of the warrior campaign. You take Helya’s horn after her death to force the kvaldir into servitude:
wow(dot)gamepedia(dot)com/Helya%27s_Horn_(quest)

[Erevien-die-aldor (Erevien)]

You claimed the fleet was sent to Stormheim to get the aegis. If they do nothing substantial to get the aegis, and Sylvanas does nothing to aid you, then clearly they were not there to get the aegis.

Not a claim but a fact. Especially stated like that. Sylvanas and Nathanos order all survivors from the selfish vengeance attack done by Genn to support and aid the PC by all means. Afterwards they are supposed to meet again at the entrance of the vrykul settlement. Stop being ignorant and nitpicking about everything. Sylvanas getting the lamp from Helya has nothing to do with the rest of the forces capability to help the PC.

So the quests from the zone. It is all explained.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

This is why we’re wasting our time here. You continually shift goalposts and then accuse me of doing it as you invent claims.

See, this is the difference between you and me. When I claim you move the goalpost, I point out how. When you do it, you just assert it and that is all. The fact that I point out what evidence is necesarry for your claim to be true is not inventing a claim, it is showing you what evidence you must provide.

I refuse to accept your distinction because it’s a meme used to obscure evidence used against you.

You should google what a meme is.

You presuppose that they’re not there to get the Aegis because parties that you never interact with and lack information on the Aegis, don’t know your location and were just the target of an attack that scattered them and left them without a functional chain of command up until the end don’t help you with the Aegis.

So the people who you claimed where there to get the aegis, lack information on it, refuse to aid the one person looking for it and have no chain of command that leads them to finding the aegis, are there to find the Aegis? Do you realize hwo ridiculous you sound?

At the same time you dismiss what help there is as either being invalid because it’s just doing their jobs - despite their jobs also involving seizing the Aegis, or not counting because they’re just there to help Sylvanas, like with the batrider, as though that is not also a component of the reason they are there.

I never dismissed that they helped. How many times do I have to explain this to you. I claimed that what little help they offered does not prove they were there to get the aegis.

We can go at this until the cows go home and still get nowhere, because the parametres you set are not standards I’ve ever claimed to attempt to prove

Exactly! You make a claim, being that the fleet was sent to get the aegis, then set standards for yourself to prove that claim, being that they provided a small amount of aid in getting the aegis, I point out that your standards fail to live up to the claim, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Finally you are starting to see reason.

for example stating that the Forsaken aren’t really helping you because and take your pick:

Again, when have I ever claimed the forsaken were not helping you? You keep claiming I said this, because that is the only way you can keep pretending like you have a case. My claim has always been that the fleet was not in Stormheim to get the aegis. The fact that you need to change my statements, show that deep down, you know you are wrong and are inly paddling for stuff to say.

Wait no, for the criteria of them helping you to be there, they have to continually provide you troops despite them not knowing you’re alive or dead, your location or having someone to instruct them prior.

I mean, they knew you were alive, and they knew where you were, at the start of the zone. But then again, you have not played it. If you have to straight up lie to make your case, maybe consider that it is time to quit?

You deny adding increasing arbitrary criteria to every component of this help as your argument unravels, to the point that I’m sure that if we were to continue you’d be asking me to provide a written affidavit of Sylvanas passed to every Forsaken to obligate them to do it and for the entire remaining fleet to converge on your location as they’d have determined from their telepathy.

No, my standards were clear from the beginning. If we are to assume the forsaken were in Stormheim to get the aegis, they would be searching for it. Instead they help Sylvanas capture undead, sending only token assistance to the one person searching for it, whom could have used a lot more of the available help. you are the one who keeps conflating what little presence thay have with the purpose of their invasion.

On the other hand, you do your damndest to avoid the elephant in the room, namely that the fleet that sets sail is almost entirely destroyed in the very first quest and Sylvanas displaced, self-evidently meaning that the circumstances of what follow change.

No, no I do not, because that is not relevant. Many survived the attack. Enough to fight the Alliance. Enough to aid the player. They did one of those things with their numbers.

The factual reality of the situation is, to state it for the tenth time from the beginning is that the Forsaken you encounter assist you in your task as Sylvanas claimed within that quest

And I state for the tenth time, that does not prove the fleet was there to get the aegis. What is so hard to understand?

Odyn would have let Skovald take the Aegis - the last part you at least admit, though for him you seem to extend a very large latitude to obscure the basic reality that he would’ve either let Skovald take the aegis if he could beat you or let him kill you and then kill him to keep him from taking the aegis.

About that. Had the fleet actually gone their to find the aegis, and actually aided the player, Skovald would likely never even have reached the Halls of Valor. Sylvanas broke her promise of aiding you with her army, which allowed that whole situation to happen. It happened because the fleet was not there to get the aegis.

Those you don’t encounter and aren’t aware of your location obviously don’t. No substantiality, no telepathy required, no Forsaken army to materialize out of thin air after the fleet was blown to smithereens - assistance given by the ones actually there.

You keep mentioning these forsaken who the player does not encounter and do not know where they are? Who are these people? The player is among the fleet when it arrives, and leaves to meet Hati while amongst the forsaken. So who are we talking about?

Not a claim but a fact. Especially stated like that. Sylvanas and Nathanos order all survivors from the selfish vengeance attack done by Genn to support and aid the PC by all means.

This is a straight up lie. No such order was given. Sylvanas was not even present for the aftermath. How could you make such a blatant lie and not realize I would pick up on it?

Afterwards they are supposed to meet again at the entrance of the vrykul settlement.

So you straight up admit, that after being ordered to aid the player by all means, they split apart to meet again later? Then they were not there to get the aegis!

Sylvanas getting the lamp from Helya has nothing to do with the rest of the forces capability to help the PC.

So there was nothing stopping them from aiding the player? And they still neglected to aid them, by all means? Then that proves they were not there for the aegis! How are you this incapable of understanding your own logic? You came in here, expecting to educate me and berating me from nitpicking, yet you did not realize such an obvious flaw in your own argument? That is embarassing.

[Erevien-die-aldor (Erevien)]

So you straight up admit, that after being ordered to aid the player by all means, they split apart to meet again later? Then they were not there to get the aegis!

Yes they were. You were given links and chose to ignore them. Not my fault. Only Sylvanas departed from the group. Rest went after the Aegis and then meet finally again once the PC finished his/her job.

So there was nothing stopping them from aiding the player? And they still neglected to aid them, by all means? Then that proves they were not there for the aegis! How are you this incapable of understanding your own logic? You came in here, expecting to educate me and berating me from nitpicking, yet you did not realize such an obvious flaw in your own argument? That is embarassing.

Your main goal when you “diccuss” the lore is to attack players, throw fists and try to make them think “You are wrong because I say so!”, whenever the Sylvanas related topics comes up. I don’t know why you are this spiteful, but it is massivley toxic.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Yes they were. You were given links and chose to ignore them. Not my fault. Only Sylvanas departed from the group. Rest went after the Aegis and then meet finally again once the PC finished his/her job.

This is another straight up lie. If you actually play through the event, the players goes after the aegis by themselves after clearing out the remaining Alliance. I was provided no links proving otherwise, so that is another lie by you. Sylvanas left the group, the group, minus the player, just stayed still, not offering the player more than the bare minimum of help much later on.

Your main goal when you “diccuss” the lore is to attack players

You have no evidence of this.

throw fists

Why on earth would I do that? How?

try to make them think “You are wrong because I say so!”

All of these as baseless accusations. Just because I am that much better at arguing than you, and humiliate you every time you try to prove otherwise, does not mean that is my aim. I am always honest and make sound, logical argument. You disagree? Feel as though my claims about my motivation and behaviour are not substantiated? That is what I think of you when you make accusations like this.

If you have criticism of me, be specific instead of making these vague, general and unsubstantiated claims (this is proper criticism). I do not expect the person who spent months making the theory that “sYlvAnAs Is ACtuAlLy yOGg-sAroN” to be capable of such, but I will correct you nonetheless.

I don’t know why you are this spiteful, but it is massivley toxic. See, anyone can say “ur bad”. If you do not feel my criticism applies to you, imagine how I feel about yours.

Also, I do not want to hear about toxicity from a person who once threatened to harass Blizzard employees.