Baine Rescue Cinematic


#165

My character nodding at the idea of Daelin’s daughter teaming up with the greenskin scum almost made me quit the game.


#166

How can you be so cruel?

Leave my Thunder Bluff alone!


(Erevien) #167

It’s BBQ time bois. Steak is back on the menue :wink:


#168

Tired of charred night elf babies?


#169

It’s funny how you are desperately trying to emulate actual orcs from a better franchise.


(Tyrniae) #170

No, if she joined Garrosh his enemy’s while he still was part of the Horde and not the true Horde then it would be treason, ignoring a order doesn’t mean treason.

I don’t remember any of that the whole time I played, I did play a Horde character that I remember now but not anything close to what you said.

People who were loyal and not loyal, those who were trying to start a chain reaction, they sadly all had to die. Sylvanas didn’t betray anyone it was damage control because the Alliance tried to backstab her with a neutral event what Arthas Sister (don’t remeber her name atm) was trying to convince some Forsaken to join.

Good one, good to know that all the goverments and ministers and president betrayed their land because they did not fulfull all their promises to their land, so to what you said it’s treason.

As far I’m aware the whole point was to cripple the Night elves by breaking their spirit/soul to keep them as hostage to prevent the future wars. But I’m mostlikely outdated on that and lacking alot of information since I barely played around that time anymore.

She didn’t fail in that, for plot reason he wasn’t killed. The reason he survived is because of Saurfang’s honor moment that resulted in hum surviving. Sylvanas didn’t fail but Saurfang failed in forfulling the that he was ordered to do.

And acording to you disobeying orders is betrayel. And burning the tree with Catapults who can shoot a few tens of KM seems like a plan B.

They did, a cinema said even that Sylvanas has the people behind her. Vol’jin being tricked or not doesn’t matter. She is the Warchief, she has the people behind her.


#171

Going against explicit orders from a military superior is a form treason.

I mean, it happened. We know Mulgore was attacked. Shortly after being made warchief, Sylvanas left the Horde by itself for Stormheim leaving them without a coordinated command structure. imagine if, during any invasion, the head of state and military left her seat, in a time of a depleted government, to get an immortality potion. That leader would be prosecuted and dismissed.

Ah, okay “They had to die”. They just had to. How convenient. Good thing Sylvanas was there to carry that out. I mean, they just had to die. Simple as that.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. If you kill people who trust you and whom you have sworn to lead and protect, in an act of damage control, then you are not betraying those people. Because, as we all know, damage control and treason are mutually exclusive, because reasons. I did not see that. Also, the Alliance did not try to backstab her. Calia acted by herself.

You missed and important detail there, likely intentionally, which was “when doing so is possible”. Sylvanas has the opportunity to fulfil her promises, yet chose not to, without informing or consulting anyone in her faction who would be affected by her actions. That is blatant disregard for her political responsibilities for self/serving reason, which is treason.

For plot reason, she failed to kill him.

Sylvanas failed because she had just as good an opportunity to finish off Malfurion as Saurfang did. She failed because she did not inform Saurfang of the importance of Malfurion’s death. She ailed because she gave the order she could have carried out herself to a guy who had just expressed discontent with doing it. She failed because she did not make a plan in case Malfurion, a guy who can literally fly away from the battle, survived.

Seems like it? Sylvanas literally stated she did not foresee that option.

They did not choose her. Vol’jin chose her. Vol’jin being tricked matters because she is warchief for illegitemate reasons, and for all the reasons above, namely her failures and betrayals, is a horrible warchief. Blizzard says she has the loyalty of the people, but they do not show this, or give a coherent reason for it.


(Tyrniae) #172

Again no, if she joined Garrosh enemy’s when again he was still the Horde and not the true Horde and didn’t go full genocide on the Horde then it would be treason. Simple disobeying an order is no trason.

From a quick google it seems like disobeying an order is this: (https)://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubordination

Remove the ( )

You mean the pre-xpack event with all the invasions from some zones, Mulgore wasn’t part of it from what I have seen from: (https)://wow.gamepedia.com/Legion_Invasions

Remove the ( )

And leaving the Horde for a mission shouldn’t be something bad, but I would be deeply worried as Sylvanas if the Horde leaders were uncappable of acting on their own when their leader isn’t there at the moment.

“That leader would be prosecuted and dismissed.” Not realy no, it would be the other way around if any of the generals are uncappable of handeling without their leader.

And by protection the large 99%+ majorty of the Forsaken she had to damage control and order the killing of Loyal and not loyal Forsaken to make sure the Forsaken will survive.

You’re right of that, just read it pretty dark of her.

Just like any other minister/president/you named it.

And gave that an order to Saurfang what he disobeyed.

His death is already important himself as he’s widely known to almost everybody in both factions.

She failed yes, she failed because you thought she was able to give someone a simple task but he failed so missrible in that task resulting in so much death because of him.

Improvising.

Just like Garrosh,Vol’jin was also not chosen by the people but by the Warchief or the Horde leaders, in the end she has the people behind her.


#173

You are just employing a narrow definition of treason to suit your argument. Treason does not mean supporting the enemy. Treason is acting against your own nation. Sylvanas did not simply disobey an order, she went against it, and threatened to render an area the Horde intended to use uninhabitable. She was endangering the Horde’s war campaign and plans for her own agenda. It is not that she simply failed to follow an order, it is how crucial that order war. Besides the fact that what she did went against a ban the Horde had issues for the sake of its own safety.

No. I mean the Legion invasion during Legion. You know, the whole plot of the expansion.

True. Leaving for a private mission after just entering office, a mission you could relegate to a lieutenant, during a massive invasion, while your government is depleted and depend on you to fulfill your duties, is treason.

If you believe this to be true, you have no understanding of how governments work. Educate yourself.

A head of state cannot simply leave their duties aside, expect some general to take up the slack, and then prosecute the general if they failed. I am struggling to conceive how someone could be so ignorant of how states and governments work that they would make a claim like what you just did. Are you honestly this ignorant, or did you just make up these rules to defend Sylvanas?

What are you talking about? What did killing the entire Desolate Council have to do with the survival of the forsaken? You are just talking nonsense. You pulling motives and settings out of the blue, and never proving them. What is your argument here?! Explain!

Yes, how horrible to allow the forsaken to choose how to live.

Again, what are you talking about? I never named anyone. What is the argument here? You are not making arguments! You are just saying random things that do not have any meaning. Elaborate! Explain!

Instead of just doing it herself.

Sylvanas literally stated otherwise. She never proved his death was important, only asserted so when it became convenient.

She failed because she is a moron who could not be bothered to kill a defenseless enemy and instead told the one person in her army unaware of the importance of killing that enemy, who had just expressed discomfort with doing it, the responsibility of doing so. She had just as much responsibility of Saurfang.

You do not improvise on a plan that went perfeclty except for a minor detail (and yes, Malfurionæs death was minor, ad in no way affected her goals, something she herself admitted), causing you to throw it all away and make rash, catastrophic descicions. That is insanity, not improvisation.

Pulling tons of your people into a war after swearing to capture an enemy target, which you chose not to do because of some unproven assumption about the enemy, is an act of endangering your nation, which is treason.

Does she? Which people? And how does that prove that they chose her? Your claim that the people chose her is still false.


(Tyrniae) #174

No, she Calia tried to convice more Forsaken by exposing her self to come with her starting a the butchering of many.

But I’m not argueing anymore about this, nothing fun about repeating the same thing, done it way to many times.


#175

Yes, how horrible to allow the forsaken to choose how to live.

Yes, watching you repeat the same old tirelessly debunked, fallacious arguments does get tiring. Good thing you realized there was no way for you to win the debate with such bad arguments and decided to surrender.


(Blunderhoof) #176

Ah so, if Sylvanas does not have the people behind her and was not chosen, there’s no possibility at all, she could move against Thunder Bluff, ergo both Jaina and Thrall are the biggest bullshifters and liars in the cinematic….my my, seems like the whole cast is just a bunch of badly written sobs now exactely on par with Sylvanas.

Or where you going to argument that it’s all bad writing except for her, she is perfectly in character ? I guess I already know the answer.


#177

She was not chosen by the people, and I never denied she had their support. I pointed out how unclear the statement that “she had the support of the people” is. Also, having the support of the people does not equate to having an army. She can have an army, while the people support her, are indifferent to her, and while they revile her.


(Evenmourn) #178

It’s mostly an admission of their poor communication in not showing any rank and file opposition to Sylvanas. Sure, the leaders are all very upset (eventually, because of Derek, no one mentions Teldrassil), but we see the soldiers are all in for it and commit some pretty bad things with Sylvanas nowhere to be seen. There’s no equivalent to how they remembered to have Garrosh tighten the screws on Orgrimmar during Mists and have committees with average dudes opposing him in Tides of War and even for Cataclysm.

That or its meta commentary and they mean that enough people complained about the hack writing for them to be forced to put in the Sylvanas-side bandaid for a few patches. I don’t think it matters anyway since this is just setup for her to lose her public support when the people find out she was behind the Nazjatar setup.


(Blunderhoof) #179

No, it still makes ZERO sense.
This army behind her would consist of pretty much Forsaken ONLY then, because why would Orcs, Trolls, Elves or Goblins join her in her supposed assault on Thunder Bluff.
Those soldiers the Horde army consists of are tribesman of Mulgore, Highmountain, Clansmen of the Mag’har or MU Orcs, Darkspear or Zandalari, or the Bilgewater cartel, none of them have any reason whatsover to just blindly follow into a war on the Tauren homelands…None, So no, she can’t have an army if she chooses to attack ‘the people’.
This is exactely what I mean with ‘bad writing’ being a selective argument most of the time, so yes, either Jaina and Thrall are full of it or you’ll just have to admit the entire narrative, INCLUDING Sylvanas is the worst it has been so far and ‘bad writing’.


#180

Again, what you are saying makes little sense. It is possible to have an army and not the support of the people. Like, how do you think dictatorship works? Because the Horde is literally a dictatorship. You do not need to be popular, you need only be popular amongst the people with guns. She could come up with an army of undead and mag’har, who are loyal to her and have no particularily strong bond to the Horde, as well was any other Horde members who values their Warchief over the tauren.

I am not contesting that Sylvanas has a great deal of support in the Horde, what I am contesting is the clarity of Lor’themar’s statement. Does the majority of Horde citizens support her, or just enough that she can wage war effectively? Are they loyal in the sense that they will not oppose her, or in the sense that they agree with her strongly? He also states killing Baine would tear the Horde apart, so where is that loyalty placed?

I also believe it would be difficult to convince the Horde to attack Thunder Bluff, some posters here disregarded, and it would be foolish to do so, but Sylvanas could carry it out with the aid of the forsaken and mag’har. Thrall’s statement is, however, fully unsubstantiated. Had I not known this was a work of fiction and known about foreshadowing, I would not believe him at all.


#181

Also Saurfang mocks the Alliance for killing Rastakhan yet forgot about King Llane, another sovereign King slain in his own home. The pot calling the kettle black.

Actually in Llane’s case it was even worse, because he was betrayed and never started the war (unlike Rastakhan, who declared war on the Alliance back in Cataclysm and chose death).


#182

Still believe that Sylvanas wants all of this to happen, to bring the factions together against the true enemies of Azeroth, I don’t believe for a second that Sylvanas is working for N’zoth, she is not one to be controled by someone again.

Sylvanas has been orchestrating this entier expansions conflict and setting herself up in a manner as the ¨Big Evil¨ to bring the Alliance and Horde together, if she wanted Baine dead he would be dead, but no we ¨Saved¨ Baine and it felt to easy and that was the point, to draw Thrall back and get everyone to prepeare for N’zoth.

All the deaths and horror was for a reason, and I know that you might say ¨Blizzard isn’t that clever¨ but that is what Blizzard wants you to believe beacause they know that we think they aren’t clever, and yes alot of this isn’t ingame that is on Blizz’s part but still.

Am I saying that the deaths and the burning of Teldrassil was right? No offcourse not, but there is a deeper meaning behind her actions she knew that Elune would intervene in the end, It was Elune that kept Saurfang from killing Malfurion by soothing him, Elune took away the pain of the Night Elves who died in the fire so they could go peacefully.

Sylvanas has calculated everything this entier expansion and we have just turned our noses up and overlooked it id say.


#183

There’s nothing that brings people together like a good old genocide.


#184

Weekly reminder that peace is worth fighting for.

In other news; both Saurfang and Baine are now at large. Adjusts oversized glasses This news reporter expects that Sylvanas will never look under her nose.

Upcoming: Siege of Thunder Bluff. Inevitable or Bluff?