Battleground Finder

Hi there,

I’m hoping to get some sort of response from Blizzard or at least catch their attention with this post.

It is from my understanding that Blizzard decided to allow BGs in wotlk to grant experience for levelers. This was done in order for the lower level pvp brackets to survive including the twink side. Moreover, blizzard decided not to bifurcate the queues which once again is a very supportive action towards twinks, which we do appreciate a lot.

Also, we know that RDF was removed due to the concern over the social aspect where RDF would make the dungeon interaction void of any meaningful social engagement. Furthermore, it would lower zone activity. I do not take any position against this reasoning, rather I’d like to bring this reason forward to why I’m making this post.

As of today, we still haven’t heard anything about why the BG finder is not included in the BETA or PTR, nor whether it will make an appearance in the real launch of the alpha / wotlk. And so whether to add this feature or not is currently being discussed at Blizzard, I would love to add my view on this.

I look at it from the way you’ve taken action recently. If you were to not include the BG finder, this would be extremely counter-intuitive to the reasoning behind the actions you took to remove the RDF and implement experience in BGs. I’ve read a bit here and there from other posts about why bg finder is good. Hence, I will only mention them in haste and give one reason which I feel was left out.

→ Will lead to afking at battlemasters = no social engagement, zone activity or fun leveling experience in the sense that you get to do quests and learn the lore for instance.
→ Heavily reduced Wpvp since the pvp:ers are forced to stay in the city. Since you get teleported back to the city and as the queues are generally pretty quick, you won’t bother to go to a zone to kill some time by ganking or what have you.
→ It will heavily damage the twinking communities as levelers won’t want to stick around in a city for (most likely) sub-par experience just to gain some honor or so. You could maybe argue that they would do this when they reach 60 just to get the epic gear to level but the current 60-69 bracket is a testament to that not really being the case with the low engagement (max 3 WSG bgs during peak hours). I think it would severely damage the very low level brackets such as 19,29,39,49 and 60 (51-60 AV which won’t pop since it requires a lot more people) since they do not really have any gear upgrades that levelers can get their hands on.

My addition to the above reasons which sort of ties into the Wpvp argument;
Back in wotlk, when I was queueing bgs with friends, I used to be out in the world looking for players to kill. The funny thing is, a lot of times I found players that needed my help with quests for instance, these services would often lead to long-term social relationships. Whenever I didn’t do that, I would go farming or do zone-achievements. If social-interaction, zone activity and greater leveling experience is the goal here then it is my belief that you should 100% allow the bg finder.

The only reason I’ve really heard over and over for not including it is that people interact a lot at battlemasters which would then reduce social engagement. Honestly, I think that is 100% incorrect, but I recommend the people voicing this argument go and find out for themselves by going to the battlemasters today at Shattrath.

Now of course, if you guys feel I left something out please feel more than free to post it below.

Thanks for your consideration

16 Likes

/agreed.

BG Finder would allow for a more diverse and varied leveling experience. If things stay as they are on the Beta/PTR you’d be forced to travel to a major city every time you wanted to participate in PvP, making players choose between questing and BGing. One core feature of original WotLK leveling was that players weren’t forced to choose either; they could do both without getting punished. This is even more true given the rather extreme min-maxing that is currently going on for all aspects of WoW classic; players will deem questing more efficent then never queue up for a BG while leveling because of the time-cost.

I’d also argue there’s a huge difference between implementing Random Dungeon Finder and BG Finder: For dungeons there’s a social element in TBC/vanilla in finding suitable players and roles for a specific instance. This was never the case for BGs in TBC/vanilla – you get placed on a random team and the social interaction starts once the gates open. BGs (aside from organized premades) were never truly about finding 9 or 19 other players for your team; instead if was about winning with the hand you were dealt.

This all means that adding BG Finder wouldn’t remove any already existing social element.

3 Likes

“I’d also argue there’s a huge difference between implementing Random Dungeon Finder and BG Finder: For dungeons there’s a social element in TBC/vanilla in finding suitable players and roles for a specific instance. This was never the case for BGs in TBC/vanilla – you get placed on a random team and the social interaction starts once the gates open. BGs (aside from organized premades) were never truly about finding 9 or 19 other players for your team; instead if was about winning with the hand you were dealt.”

Also, it would be fun to do some sort of survey or something on how many players in bgs actually socialize. Just from spamming bgs on 69 and some on 70 I wouldn’t say there’s much of a social aspect to it. Contrariwise, it’s quite hostile with your average BG hero turning into the king of drill sergeants; gunnery sergeant hartman. In addition to the aforementioned, you are queued with people from other realms which means the odds of any significant social relations being maintained are low as you have a hard time interacting with one another in game other than chat. And if we’re back to the only thing keeping the relation together is the chat then I’d argue they might just use discord or some other modern day application to further engage with one another. Of course, I could be wrong.

Agree! up!

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Agree completely.

The reasoning of allowing bg finder which allows you to queue up for battlegrounds from anywhere but not allowing rdf which does the same thing for pve players is funny. They’re the exact same tool for different categories of content. I don’t see any reason why bg finder would be allowed when they’re excluding lfd. Realistically they will use the same reasoning against bgf as they do lfd.

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I’d argue there is a small difference, as Vampirelord says:

When picking a dungeon group, there some kind of socializing, even though it comes with all the “im not gonna pick those classes because they’ll roll on my gear”, and “this is hardreserved” etc. but when queueing for a BG, you have no say in who you enter with and thus there is really no social engagement :slight_smile:

That being said, I am totally for RDF also, and I think the reason Blizzard doesnt implement it, is to make sure botting and RMT stays intact and is more relevant, so they dont lose a ton of bot subscribers. If people could RDF, the overall gold gained for all players would be higher on average and the bots would struggle more to stay relevant, in terms of farming gold to sell, since they would need a lot more gold for the same amount of $$$ with a higher inflation.

No reason to put BG finder if there is no RDF.

@ [Lucillepal] and [Djansoul]
There is a big difference between BG Finder and RDF.
You correct that they “work” the same way, yet their “outcome” is different because the locations of interest are different. What I mean by this is that a PvE player’s location is out in the open world, where as for a PvP player it is inside a city/town.
The PvE player must head out from town and the PvP player must head into town.

Without RDF the world becomes more alive as players must head out in the open world and travel to the dungeons in person. So it spurs activity in the world and makes players less likely to stand AFK in a city waiting for a dungeon pop.

Without the BG Finder all PvP interested players (be it for arena or BGs) must first travel to a city and will most likely remain in the locations where there is a BG/Arena master present since it takes a while to travel to interesting pvp spots in the open world, and the shorter the BG/Arena queues are, the less likely the player will leave the town (as it would just be a quick flight before a BG pop).

Where as with a BG Finder they are not restricted to traveling city or a specific location with a BG/Arena Master, which in turn has the opposite effect of that of the RDF - it makes the PvP players head out into the world and thus ignites world pvp and “life”.

The game is called World of Warcraft, not Towns of Warcraft, and so activity in the open world should be promoted. By allowing the BG Finder players can head out and roam free in the open world, promoting its activity, where as keeping RDF disabled encourages the same outcome - head out into to the World of Warcraft!

Nope, there is not.
DF = You must spend time to travel to dungeon.
RBG = You must spend time to travel to the city.
In both cases you are travelling AFK on a gryphon which can be considered as “moving in the world” but does not contribute to any World activity at all. In addition Dungeon Finder on wrath is not even called Dungeon Finder but Group Finder and you can use it to create BG group as well.

Firstly, travel to the dungeon may involve an AFK flight (if you take the normal FP anyway), but you will sooner or later have to land (for example at the summon stone or a base) where PvP most definitely can take place. If the PvPers are not forced to stick around town then there is a good chance they will head out for some action.

Secondly, No BG Finder = Not spending time to travel to a city. For the very reason I mentioned in my post if you cared to read and reflect upon it: PvPers will most likely never leave the city due to short queue times or being required to personally queue in most cases when playing solo RBF.

Thirdly, it is far better to have a chance for world pvp and activity in the world than having none at all. And besides, it feels far better to see players even just moving in the world than standing semi AFK in the cities.

It is up to you if you want to queue from the city or from Ashenvale to Warsong or from Arathi Highlands to AB. You are right that teleport from the city directly to any battleground is way better than no DF teleport at all.

People will have no business roaming around Ashenvale/Arathi Highlands to queue WSG and AB, and you know it. So it serves no purpose in this discussion.

I am not right about “that teleport from the city directly to any battleground is way better than no DF teleport at all.” - because I have not even said it.

What I claim is that PvPers will be stranded in the big cities (Dalaran, Shattrah, SW, Org etc) because they will likely get a BG pop before they are able to travel to a PvP spot. Hence there is little incentive to try to be in the open world. And thus, enforces semi AFKing in the cities (something which does reduce the activity in the open world).

Allowing BG Finder and queue from anywhere in the world will at the very least reduce the incentive to just idle around in the city.

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Yes because they can que in the city. Take it away from them and they will be idling in an open world where bg entrances are. It would be just like meeting stones before dungeons for PvE players.
Or make it so that we can que for both dungeons and battlegrounds from whenever we want. In this context it is very similar.

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Because you play pvp content. That’s it. They’re not different at all, you just want it because it would benefit you for all the same reasons it would benefit pve players to have the exact same. Stop acting like it is anything different.

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@Arkoniel If you were to remove the BG masters in the city you would have swarms of angry PvPers on the forums. The reason is simple, there is not much to do around their locations and it would be very impractical.

@Lucillepal They are different because of the effect they cause on the activity in the world. RDF promotes people sitting in the cities, just like no BG Finder would do the same.
The goal is to make the world alive, not dead.

I shall be frank and say that I do not mind if the RDF exists or not. All I am saying is that I can understand the arguments against not having it.

And like you say yourself, if PvP content is a completely different matter then why the blazes do you care what goes on around it? I can’t see how your experience will get worse by not forcing PvPers to camp the city BG masters.

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Id argue queueing for BG should be removed completly, and ppl should travel to BGs on foot and organize groups manually just as PvE folks :slight_smile:. Imagine the revitalization of world PVP :slight_smile:

But Blizzard is hypocrite with their “design pillars” XD. 15 minutes dungeon requires socialization and coordination, but bg doesnt xD.

If it wasnt the only way to play WOTLK in a legit way id choose the other way.

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I dunno if I agree that BGs don’t require socialization, I’ve certainly got a LOT of funny BG encounters lodged in my noggin. So I don’t actually think the RDF comparison is unreasonable.

But then, I play video games to have fun so I’m apparently unique around here.

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Yeah if you’re not having fun what’s the point of playing lol.

I think that’s far too outlandish as it would require a rework of so many things and a lot of planning, it is hardly worth their time or effort in my opinion. Problem with this is something that I believe one of the community leaders pointed out. One big difference between RDF and BG is that in RDF you rly just need same faction players to join a group of 5. We all agree on this yes?

Now BG is a whole different animal, you need at least 5 or so for WSG, I believe 7 for AB and then it just keeps going higher. Moreover, lets picture the current scenario where same faction bg works. In that case for bgs like AV as an example which is a common bg for lvl 60 twinks and 70 twinks to wanna play would require upwards to 20 people.

Finally, regarding your post @Jeynar, it is worth mentioning that in the real system the people you queue into are randoms from other servers making it even less likely that you would create significant social interaction within the bg unlike a dungeon where you are on the same server and might decide to continue doing dungeons. While you say you enjoy the interaction within bg, I’d argue it’s much more toxic. Sadly, we don’t have any sort of instrument to measure how true this is.

So, with these reasons given I ask you, how are bgs similar to dungeons?