Buff Holy Priest

You cant even provide evidence for your own possition. So you basically know nothing about gearing a priest. This is how its going to be every time you try. I am going to show that you are clueless, TO EVERYONE. Its what you asked for by trying to harass me. Know your stuff before trying to tell someone their wrong.

Clearly you didn’t understand what I meant by boss, I did mean the encounter.

But you have stated its not a rotation healers use but priority list.

So why is wowanalyser not superior when it does use the specific encounters and your own spell usage? You can look at all your logs and use a stat weight that fits them all best? It gives you normalised weights so it’s really easy to do. This way its based on your own logs and not something done by a computer generated bot.

Please provide the evidence for your position. So I can look at it.

wowanalyser uses logs, one big factor is the deviation in player actions. Everything in an ecounter has to be close to the same for there to be any hope statistical significance. So you cant use one log. Also people social network. This means logs of other choices dont appear.

You need to find which is the best. This requires trying everything. Not just once but 1000’s of times.

For example, FC spec. People could believe that but the sim could show something else is better. All the logs would be of the accept spec.

This is why we sim.

Sure thing boss, give me a bit of time to provide you something. I’m on my phone right now but will be on my PC shortly.

Try your best, I will be kind. I dont mind if a debate is constructive. Take whatever time you need.

These are my stat weight from wowanalyzer
Intellect 1.00
Critical Strike 0.33
Haste (HPCT) 0.00 - 0.54
Haste (HPM) 0.06
Mastery 0.38
Versatility 0.34
Versatility (with DR) 0.38
Leech 0.79

Basically master and Verstility. Both .38. Crit .33. Haste is lower value. Intellect is by ilvl.

I made you a spreadsheet bro, these are averages of the fights you have logged. Obvoiusly for something more accurate more logs would be better. But this information is based on you personally.

I wouldn’t look at one log specifically as more and varied data is always a lot better.

The only fight I wouldn’t include in this kind of weighting is Sun King’s salvation as, as a holy priest it isnt a traditional fight that reflects other fights in this tier or what your normal spell usage would be in a typical fight because of the healing phase. You would be safe to still use the gear sets based on values for other fights as typically its not a difficult fight for healing. And the healing phase all healing going into Kael will typically not be overheal.

Even on mythic it is more about using CDs correctly rather than gear set up (and I play the fight on mythic in my offspec holy gear and the PI leggo though, as we dont need me to run FC and PI on the resto shaman and on me is fine, I can then PI a DPS in the last part of the fight and have it for myself).

I hope this is adequate data and “proof”.

edit for typo!

I already gave you the stat weight. Those are correct. I am does HC with this gear.

This is just stat weight. Got nothing to do with anything being talked about.

wowanalyzer agrees with ask mr robot. You only take haste if you outgear the content. As it hits mana and if you expect to go oom then you dont touch haste. Thats not to state a little haste is bad but haste is not a high value for me.

This is no proof at all, other than ask mr robot does a good job.

Logs wont help compare FC to divine. There is only enough logs for four of them.

Flash Concentration 6,803.94
Harmonious Apparatus 6,709.60
X’anshi, Return of Archbishop Benedictus 6,491.75
Twins of the Sun Priestess 6,093.14

Divine image is not one of them. Basically the top three are within error margins. Maybe all of them.

That point about haste I even mention in the spreadsheet man, haste is is dependent on fight length and comfort (with mana).

and my spreadsheet weights do not match what you have posted because you have taken the one log that shows mastery + versa only.

I really cant understand why you think that this isnt as much “proof” as your sims are. Both tools do the exact same thing but AMR bases it on an algorythm that isn’t a real person but wow analyser bases it on data of a real person.

Your sim isn’t real data if you mean HPS but logs are real data of HPS. Healing is zero sum game, you cant have more HPS than health lost allows.

In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant’s gain or loss of utility is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the utility of the other participants.

In terms of healing in wow that is health lost and restored by healing.

I really don’t think you understand any of the concepts we are talking about or you are twisting “proof” and “data” to suit your agenda, so debate is wasted on you.

And well, those numbers for logs using those specific legendaries, maybe you should consider your choice of Divine Image was a poor choice at this point if not enough players are using it, though I’m sure your sim has told you otherwise (:

Again your sim doesnt account for: skill of your raid team and co-healers (and therefore actual fight duration for that raid team), failure to mechanics (yourself or others), who mechanics fall on, movement, CD usage of the raid team that impacts yourself (such as heroism/bloodlust), your personal choices to respond to a given scenario and much more. It can only sim what has been pre-determined by the person who created ths sim.

1 Like

I’ll take my ‘lack’ of knowledge on the spec and progress I have achieved over your big brain sims.

But as with anyone who wants help, once you decide to start pushing content, and you need advice that actually works in practice, feel free to hit me up and I’ll gladly help you become a better holy priest with my immense lack of understanding ./s

Edited a bit out because your lfr ‘skills’ are actually on point insert anime wow sound

Thats not even a valid argument. That gear set is crit/vers/mastery. I will go oom before the boss dies in a HC pug. It alway happens.

Basically your spreadsheet is about my stat weights but that proves I am wrong about FC. You are a moron and thats not name calling.

I never said to stack haste. There is also 2 weights for haste to make your best judgement, but ignoring it completely is a poor choice. It is entirely based on not going oom considering fight length and your comfort level of it (this will be the spell usage you have).

I have not once said haste is better, but an item with haste can be better.

All I see here is a load of nonsense bucause an ego could not take being told its wrong. An ego without intellect, that lacks both knowledge and understand to prove their point. Why accept someone word that they are right if they know next to nothing.

This is a waste of anyone time. You had your chance.

Resulting to insults i see, I’d say the pot calling the kettle black. But then I haven’t been making false statements due to lack of knowledge like you.

I’m sure you already complained about people insulting you on this thread already, but you are actually the worst for it.

Enjoy your AMR sims and lfr progress (:

1 Like

You dont have any evidence. You cant present a real argument. Being right for you is complete accident. Like a stopped clock being right twice a day. You could be right but its got nothing to do with you. You could also be wrong.

I’m using divine because that was the first useful memory I got. This is my last post on this subject. Jesus could not save your position and he returned from the dead. Anymore posts attacking me will be actioned with blizzard.

“Those are correct. I am does HC with this gear.”

The wow website itself and warcraft logs both only show at best 7/10 LFR bosses killed.

Regardless lets talk about why simulating healers is (too) complex and very situational, if at all useful.

Lets prephase this by saying that simulating or creating a model of anything is possible, that does not however mean every model is either useful or a correct or predictive model of reality.

So lets start with the goal of healing a raid boss encounter in WoW, the most basic goal of healing a raid boss encounter in WoW is to contribute in such a way as to ensure the boss dies. How do we contribute to that as healers?

  1. We heal people to prevent them from dieing.
  2. We deal damage to help kill the boss
  3. We use utility to directly reduce incoming damage.
  4. We use utility or actions that do not fit into the above points, such as doing a mechanic, giving someone a movement speed buff etc

Point 4 is really hard to simulate (although technically not impossible) or evaluate from a numbers perspective so we’ll ignore that for now.

So what do we want to gain from simulating an encounter; Advise on how we can best contribute in the above mentioned points in the things we can control. That means; Gearing choices, talent and conduit choices, casting choices, consumable choices.

Now lets start with the few knowns we have;

  1. The effect(s) of our spells individually
  2. Our current or baseline stats
  3. Our current or baseline gearing choices and talent choices

What other data do we need to come to a meaningful simulation?

  1. The amount of allies we have and the way they will (or should) act
  2. The damage pattern of the encounter
  3. The duration of the encounter
  4. Other specific requirements of the encounter.

Now we start running into issues, how can we know what our raid composition is like and what our other healers are doing? How do we factor in our own capabilities as a player, what is the duration of the boss fight? What is the damage pattern? Is it a lot of spot healing evenly spread throughout the fight or is it a few big spikes of damage? Or maybe there is constant raid damage? A combination of all those.
Do we have periods where we need to move and can only rely on certain abilities? Maybe we don’t have to move at all?

This is the first and one of the biggest issues of simulating a boss as healers; We have to make guesses or assumptions about all these things, that means that if those assumptions don’t match reality (closely) our simulation is already worthless or severly diminished in value.
If the input data is incorrect then the simulation loses value

Now we get to the next issue: What metric do we use to estimate our contribution? For damage it is doable; generally a set amount of damage has to be dealt within certain timeframes (dps) and if we can optimize damage in these timeframes we are fine.
For healing we have to match the specific damage patterns and it gets a lot more complex, we can not simply rely on overall average hps; Although all healing contributes to that metric it does not tell us what the healing did or how useful it was, if we heal 5 people at 70% health that are not going to be damaged and are standing in a shaman’s healing rain our healing is essentially worthless, maybe we could have dpsed instead or maybe there was a target with a heavy dot that now died because we did not heal them. We followed the highest hps option but we did not succeed in our primary goal of helping kill the boss. This leads to the following conclusion:
Not all healing is created equal and HPS is not a definitive metric of our effectiveness in an environment
What other metric can we use? Certainly dps can be a part of the equation but that is not our main job as a healer. The average amount of people that (should) die because of the way we and our cohealers heal in unison with the effects of both the environment and the actions of our other allies ? The answer is not a very easy one.

Now we can try to simulate all these things, tune all the assumptions and data so it correctly fits our specific personal and situational needs and then when we have done that herculean task we still only get relevant data for that one specific encounter.

Even if we succeed in that we should then not use that specific simulation we have created to give general advise to someone else, because the input of our simulation will most likely not match their specific situation. And we should especially not provide a metric that is as misleading as HPS.

So how do we help other players and get meaningful information on how to act?

  1. Look at which spells are good in a simple situation based on mana efficiency and their healing throughput.
  2. Look at what our needs are for specific fights based on the composition of our raid and other environmental factors.
  3. Look at our abilities and things we can change to see how they will effect how we act in certain fights.

Most of these are trivial calculations some are harder, we do not need complex simulations because we have perfectly fine tools to help ourselves and others out: Logs and tools that calculate the effect our actions and choices had in those logs (wow analyzer).
With these tools and by looking at the wealth of data we have available we can make informed decisions about what is effective in the actual environments based on achieved results and can give advise tailored to our and other people their specific needs.

So next time someone asks for advice do not give them an arbitrary hps number based on arbitrary decisions in a healing simulator that might not fit their situation at all or is just incorrect, instead take a look at their logs, run them through wow analyzer and give them advise tailored to their specific needs.

So how do we give general advise to people? We use a combination of achieved results and parses and calculations of the effects our different tools have.

3 Likes

To specifically adress the accuracy of AMR: It has a long track record of basic inaccuracies and errors ( a simple google search will confirm this).
Just looking at their recommended casting pattern for a priest using FC with ToL they get the following things incorrect:

Desperate Prayer has the text “on any ally when < 50% health” which is weird because it is strictly a personal defensive.

There is no mention of using flash heal to maintain the buff and indeed if you were to follow their casting pattern strictly you would never cast flash heal because heal is always above flash heal in the priority list.

They list Prayer of healing above heal in the priority list while a trivial calculation shows that the healing throughput of using a 5 stacks FC heal with ToL is higher than a Prayer of Healing cast while costing half the mana.

There is no mention of resonant words buffing flash heal or heal nor does it impact the priority they list.

Keep in mind that they state that their simulator uses the given casting priority rules, which we know are incorrect.
If they still get basic information like this incorrect combined with their track record and abysmal reputation then why would you trust them on the input data their sims use and on the actual way they simulate things?

2 Likes

@Skurtburt

Bravo, just bravo. I can’t fathom whatever idiotic response he will give you, as you couldn’t have said it any of that better. Let’s hope this silences the troll once and for all.

3 Likes

@Inukio

Unfortunately I doubt his mind set allows him to change, it would be nice though :stuck_out_tongue:
There is just something fundamentally wrong with the way he interacts with others and unfortunately that frustates a lot of people including, I imagine, himself and creates a very toxic environment.
I do not think he is trolling, I just hope other people don’t take his advise to heart.

Aellas I know I have been very tough on you perhaps even crossed some lines somewere in making it too personal but if you ever want to just have a friendly chat about holy priest give me a DM, I could even get you in a heroic raid to get some DI data :slight_smile:

I promise I won’t bite :upside_down_face:

4 Likes

To be honest at this point I think they speak out rookie opinions just so that better Priests explain why they are wrong, therefore preventing newer Priests from falling into the same pitfalls. I know I learnt just a little bit more about Mastery and Holy thanks to the threads.

I sound naive, but still. It’s a comforting thought to have.

This topic was automatically closed 30 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.