Can Druids effectively tank end-game content?


(Mirtle) #91

You’ve shortened it a bit

The question basically is “Can I be a druid and have a tank main role in end-game raiding”
The answer is no.
“End game content” is not only “a few bosses where you are useful”. it’s the entirety of AQ and Naxx. Sadly for druids, they simply don’t have gear to compete with a warrior at those stages. If best geared druid is 80-90% of a warrior in MC-BWL, then towards endgame he will fall to about 60-65% of an equally geared warrior. Simply because he has NO gear with any def stats. I think you have a couple of odd items, but they are far from ideal.
Add to that lack of active and passive mitigation, and the druid is really, really falling behind.

When you say that druid can tank in raids, but do not explain the numerous caveats and allowances - you are only confusing people who genuinely try to chose their class for themselves.

Would you advice anyone to roll a druid with aspirations to be a full-time tank in raids (even as OT)? If you would, then you are a bad friend to them. You’d probably explain that no, he should roll a warrior if tanking is what he’s after.


#92

Which bosses and why? I am still waiting for you to actually explain this. So far you have ignored my every request to do so.

Just repeating that private servers are “different” is not evidence that Druids can or cannot tank raids in Vanilla.

So which bosses cant a Druid tank in Classic, and why?


(Mirtle) #93

Any with high damage spikes and high damage input in general, because they don’t have mitigation compared to warrior.

As I said before, they actually can tank them, just like, say, a shadow priest can tank almost any boss in Vanilla. But the strain that tanking puts on your healers is so much worse than with a warrior that it’s simply not worth it, and at times you’d be seeing either a dead bear, or OOM healers followed by a dead bear.

Is it such a hard concept to grasp? Almost no dodge, no block, no parry, no active mitigation cooldowns = much higher damage input. This means much more healing needed.
It’s not that it’s impossible entirely. It is simply not viable.
There are encounters where a targer doesn’t hit all that hard, and on them Druid can tank quite comfortably for the rest of the raid. Especially if we’re talking about tanking adds, not the boss itself, because adds generally hit pretty softly. But the thing is, why would you have a bear tank those if a warrior can do it better, plus can do other things better than a bear can’t.


#94

Why do you avoid answering my question? I am asking SPECIFICALLY which bosses cant a Druid tank and why.

If you are so sure you are right then name some actual bosses. You actually have no idea do you? You BELIEVE that Druids cannot tank based on some stubborn belief stemming from misinformation in the past and you just keep parroting this as if it means anything.

It’s pretty clear you dont actually have any idea. You want to keep pushing the narrative that Druids cannot tank, but you are too scared to actually go into details as to why because then you might risk getting proved wrong.

Easier to stay overly vague and never focus on any specific aspect of tanking. You are simply put, a coward.

Either specifically name a boss and let us know WHY a Druid cannot tank it or just admit you are a troll. After all, you are so sure that Druids cannot tank, so certainly you must have enough of a grasp on the mechanics of the fight to be able to conclude this right?

So lets hear it. Share it with us. Or were you just lying and making everything up all along? :wink:


#95

Every guild needs an off tank.


(Mirtle) #96

Yes. And it is typically a second warrior.


(Mirtle) #97

Do you REALLY think I don’t have things better to do than open up guides and remember bosses that I’ve last killed 15 years ago to prove a point?

You are like a kid who keeps asking “why?” no matter what answer is given. You just don’t stop.

No, I’m not a troll and I stand by my words. But I’m really done with this useless argument. Classic is just around the corner - roll a druid and prove me wrong.
But what will happen is that you’ll be tanking useless adds on half the fights and will heal or DPS on all the others. All of that while being a risky OT for your guild in case your MT can’t attend, because unlike an OT warrior - you can’t substitute your MT.


#98

Got one thing to say crushing blows can’t dodge them


(Darkelth) #99

So you remember the raids and specific fights to know beyond doubt that druids are not viable tanks. But you don’t remember the fights well enough to throw a couple if specific boss names at us.


(Bigkeg) #100

Yes. And warriors don’t like honey. Both classes are different and both have their advantages and disadvantages.


#101

Crushing blows deal 50% additional damage. It just means a crush on a Druid is similar damage taken as a Warrior taking a regular hit.

People like you are making the same mistake over and over. You think damage taken by tanks is actually high on Vanilla. The thing that kills tanks in Vanilla is bursty damage.

In the current meta of Vanilla, healers have infinite mana due to how fast the bosses die when the DPS are geared properly and use consumes.

Druids have 13k+ Health and 70% damage reduction against raidbosses. The largests hits you will ever take in raids will be 3-4k crits. With a 2 second attackspeed on the boss you will never die if the healers are even semi competent.


#102

So prove that you know what you are talking about. I have linked spreadheets, guides, videos of myself tanking AQ40, and I have repeatedly listed side by side comparison screenshots between bosses from Vanilla and private servers to show the damage taken on both versions.

What have you done? Oh right, you just cower in fear at the mere thought of having to provide evidence for what you claim and you are too invested into your position now to risk being exposed as a fraud.

So you tell me you have better things to do than type out the name of a few bosses Druids cannot tank ( because certainly you MUST know the names of the bosses. How else can you possibly conclude that Druids are not viable tanks? ), and yet you have the time to repeat yourself with absolutely no evidence to support your assertion for weeks on these forums so clearly thats a lie.

It’s honestly pathethic that are so deeply set in your beliefs. Especially when you refuse any request to prove anything you claim. If you know you are right, why are you so scared to prove it? :thinking:


#103

Listen I was only answering the op’s post from personal experience and for every argument you come up with about druids tanking I canacounter argument (it is not personal just my experience from vanilla raiding) so if the op wants to druid tank as far as I am concerned go for but as stated untill later in the game he will be left out for raids.

Correct me if I am also wrong but only prot warrs have mitigation against crushing blows hence there preference for raiding as the spike damage dosnt drain healers so much early in the game when everyone is trying to gear up .

Find me a druid with that health and good equipment when on the first MC RUN.
then find me a healer or healers who can keep him and the other 39 players alive whilst the druid is taking 3/4k crits it dosnt happen.

Mana is an issue early on in raiding the regen is crap to be generous even with buffs , raids took so long early on mostly because of having to stop for drinking and food I think retail has made many forget how painful keeping resources was

But what do I know I only raided for 5 years before I left

Edit. when the guild I was in started raiding and remember the itemisation will be identical everyone was in a mix of blue and green stuff verry few were in full tier0 stuff due to the lenght a single dungeon took and the drop rate on items . think I had 3 pieces of dreadmist never got the head part in 6 years,


#104

You are right I cant. But then again nothing in MC even hit for damage close to 3-4k crits, which would be AQ40 levels of damage. The hardest hits you will take in MC will be 2k crits. Only Magmadar hit hard, and thats boss meant for a single tank which means your Warrior is just going to be tanking in regardless.

In MC you can still easily get a comfortable 10k health and 70% damage reduction. Druid mitigation is actually superior to warriors early game because their preraid gear is just damn good. You have access to several of your best in slot forever items even before you step into raiding, such as both armor trinkets, Ring of Protection (more armor than the raid rings you will replace it with) and Warden Staff. Later game upgrades for Druids mostly just provide them with stats that increase threat on top of the mitigation stats within the same items.

But what do I know I only raided for 5 years before I left

This is the ultimate “i am stupid” argument. Unless you raided with a Feral druid tank you have absolutely no experience relevant to judging wether or not a Druid can tank which means your whole raiding experience useless.

Vanilla also wasnt out for 5 years, so listing that you played expansions after Vanilla is equally meaningless.

There is a ton of information, theorycrafting, math and evidence out there that Druids are perfectly capable tanks. Your own refusal to read up on the available information is not my problem.

Correct me if I am also wrong but only prot warrs have mitigation against crushing blows hence there preference for raiding as the spike damage dosnt drain healers so much early in the game when everyone is trying to gear up .

The current Meta for Warrior tanks is that they will tank using Dualwield and no shield to increase the threat ceiling for DPS. Greater Stoneshield Potion make up for the lack of armor from not having a shield, so they will get crushed as well.

Since I have hopes that you are not just another person who refuse to inform yourself, I will provide you with a link that examines warrior and druid tanks on threat and mitigation. Hopefully you will learn something.

docs.google. com/document/u/2/d/e/2PACX-1vT9Rr3SPnZ6spTl6HnxKlyroxSpCCKcUf8MVt64erBc2QgOF5BQGmA-yJDaJ4MLsqHx0UCDZdxC7lEE/pub


#105

As I said what do I know I only raided for 5 years you think we didn’t try druids?
we even let the shammy tank when we had mc on farm status, thats just the thing you need raids on farm to gear up and it is still incredibly slow to try other things

You see the trouble with maths and theory crafting is that it dose not take into account the person who is pushing the keys or lag or a multitude of other things that happen.

To repeat myself again I DON’T CARE if the op wants to druid tank go for it but high end guilds will want him to heal then when raid is farm status they will probably let him off tank.

Dungeons are a completely different story but seriously why not just make a warrior for raids and a druid for later have the best of both…


#106

Haven’t you heard? Raids in Vanilla were so unimaginably hard that, unless you had the perfect comb with 17 rogues, 13 fury warriors and 3-4 fully-geared tanks you may as well not even step foot in MC! :open_mouth:

Sarcasm aside though, druids are perfectly capable, if not preferable in a dungeon environment, and adequate to perfectly capable for a wide variety of raid encounters. I’m sure I’ve heard a few times that feral druids are actually preferable for resistance fights, due to their larger healthpool and block/parry/defense? being more or less pointless in those fights?


#107

With gear yes as I keep saying early on no , and no raids wernt that hard it was players gear was sh@t and as we all now back then you could be the best player in the world but if you had poor gear it was hard


#108

But Druids have better mitigation AND better threat than warriors early on. You can easily confirm this for yourself by looking up each of those two classes prebis gear. Warriors get superior mitigation between MC and AQ due to Tier sets being tailored for tanking, but even for that content Druid TPS will be ahead of warriors.
Mitigation isnt really a problem either, since you can just pop a Greater Stoneshield Potion. You cannot use a second Stoneshield in form, but any boss where you need one just dies too fast for this to be a problem. Broodlord f.ex would never take more than two minutes to kill. On every other boss there is either tank swap mechanic involved, or it’s not a fight with heavy tankdamage (Firemaw)

There is some catchup gear in ZG which will close the gap, and in AQ40 both classes once again become pretty equal because of the sheer number of drops tailored to feral tanking in AQ40.

Warriors again pull ahead on pure mitigation with access to T3 gear in Naxx, but due to how powerful the AQ40 itemization really is, both classes will be more or less exactly the same in threat/mitigation when you compare a Druid to a Warrior geared for threat over pure mitigation.

Even in Naxx gear, Druids would be the preferred choice for a boss like Patchwerk since their pure physical mitigation is much higher and Hateful Strike cannot crit. Just to give an example.

The absolute main reason why people think Druids are not good tanks is due to Vanillas original patch cycle. Druids werent actually that great for most of the game, and they only become viable near the end.
By that time, the number of Druids who would
A) Have the required gear and
B) Understand enough about tanking to know what they were doing, would have been exceedingly rare.

Mechanically there is nothing in 1.12.1 that prevent Druids from being equally as good of a choice for almost any encounter in the game with a select few exceptions.


#109

Mitigation isnt really a problem either, since you can just pop a Greater Stoneshield Potion. You cannot use a second Stoneshield in form, but any boss where you need one just dies too fast for this to be a problem. Broodlord f.ex would never take more than two minutes to kill. On every other boss there is either tank swap mechanic involved, or it’s not a fight with heavy tankdamage (Firemaw)

careful here because a lot of what you’re saying relies on broken private server armor values and the pserver world buff meta which will flat out not be a thing on classic with the cooldown and the fact that onyxia is puggable.


#110

Thank you

But mitigation is or was a thing , pots have a cool down block is a lot more reliable than x amount chance to dodge , armour was a thing it actually worked and meant some thing plus lots of other little things a warrior had the mounted up.

You seem to have confirmed all I was saying there …