Then stay in Classic, and let people who do NOT like this stuff have TBC instead. Why do you keep assuming you speak for everyone? “People like this”… I don’t like this, and many others don’t. As long as there’s enough of us who want TBC and would play there, nobody cares about you. You don’t like it? Good, you have Classic. Stay there and don’t bother.
Ah… wait, somebody actually argued that #NoChanges imply the impossibility of legacy servers for other expansions?
That sounds so stupid, I feel like I got hit by Brain Hacker just after reading this.
Just skip everything … and give us Kaelthas back with new content inclussive draenei and bloodelf … lvl cap 65
No expansions have been confirmed, yet you just presuppose that we will get all the way beyond Wrath? mkay.
Absolutely agree. I’d say dungeons are the best example of this.
But you’re not offering any counter to why my point didn’t prove yours wrong (which wasn’t actually my point, since I don’t think you said anything about flying ruining WPvP), or explanation of why my point is subjective.
I’m saying flying didn’t ruin WPvP because it didn’t prevent it, make it harder, or alter the basis of it. It simply offered a new means of transport. I enjoyed a lot more WPvP in BC and WotLK, simply because it was easier to find it and get to it.
Why? You’re subject to the same danger as soon as you do anything on the ground. And sneaky bastards like me found ways to dismount players midair.
Never like arenas myself, but agree with that. As convenient as LFD would be, part of the reason I quit was the constant rush it brought with it.
I added arenas as an example of things that can be argued to have it’s origins in Vanilla.
No, it’s because a lot of people didn’t start playing until WotLK.
WotLK has been more popular overall than TBC for over 8 years.
People aren’t so stupid that they only prefer a thing because it’s most recent in their mind. They’ll have favourite content and design decisions, which defines their favourite expansion.
Another reason wrath is so popular is because, like it or not, the increased accessibility for casual players.
Well you just answered your own concern… Flying made the sense of danger ten times greater for people who can’t fly yet. People could swoop down on you at any time.
Don’t forget, flying in those days wasn’t account wide and cost a small fortune. So every alt had to brave being on foot and at the sheer mercy of people who could fly.
Though I will say that for people who could fly, yes, there’s far less danger.
Flying is a trade off. Once you unlock it (in particular the fast flying) you’re able to travel more safely, but from a world PvP perspective, there are pros too. If a base comes under attack or someone calls for help, players can join the fight much quicker. I had some fantastic world PvP in TBC precisely because flying enabled participants who would otherwise not bother due to the traveling distance join in instead.
People criticise the impact of flying on world PvP but you need to remember that in those days most players were playing on normal servers. If this is such a concern to you still, then rather than taking away flying and spoiling it for those who enjoy it, a much more logical solution would be to give players the net launcher so they can dismount cowards. It’s a BfA item with a 500 or so yard range that dismounts the target on a 10s cooldown.
This was a debate about whether future xpacs were good, not whether people should have them or not.
Also TBC doesn’t have LFR or LFD so as I said, it doesn’t suck, it just started the negative additions.
I think you have my argument wrong, I’d play classic servers up to cata, but that doesn’t mean the game was getting better, it was getting worse and worse each time, and if the modern game could revert to at least TBC it’d be all for the better
pvp is an aspect of danger, but I’m more referring to environmental challenges/terrain and NPCs blizzard place, like when you saw an elite area you stood well away, but with flying you can just zoom over.
and that is my problem with it
but they can also far easily avoid it as much as join it, and people will almost always go with the path of least resistance, except for the odd circumstance people chose fun over convenience.
I agree, this only came in in BFA though, far too late. Also flying mounts are too fast now, TBC speed was correct imo.
I just feel this argument is clutching at straws, and could be used to argue all modern features came from vanilla, like LFD because people saw travel time and wanted it to be shorter. I dunno 
I’m completely fine with no-flying TBC, even if it will disable a few cool things.
When it comes to Resilience - it’s not very smart to think that if the game didn’t progress with an expansion model, there would be no balance changes. Be it Resilience or something else, PvP would have always ended up rebalanced, compared to 1.12.
But even if we went all radical and removed the top 3 or 5 TBC issues people have, there’s no actual reason why we shouldn’t be able to progress through what’s pretty much just more Vanilla content.
Depends on the feature. LFD did come from LFG, and eventually lead to LFR. It’s not a matter of what the feature developed from, but how far they kept pushing it.
Like LFG was originally zone specific, which was unnecessarily complicated. You had to either sit in the zone of the dungeon waiting for a group, or gather the group from cities (Org and IF, usually) and then all travel to the dungeons (so dungeons far away from cities became unpopular). They tried to fix this with the meeting stones, which would form parties kind of like LFD, but people didn’t like it. So they added the option to use them through innkeepers, but it still liked much. Then they made LFG global in cities, and eventually just global. Some would say that was enough, as it allows anyone to look for groups from anywhere, while still being able to do quests, but Blizz made the LFD for TBC, which was basically an automated LFG, and let meeting stones be used to summon people. That is the point I’d say they should have stopped, because it was good enough, not limited to just dungeons, and meeting stones were constant sources of PvP so there was still some travel and danger involved because at least 2 (3?) people needed to be there to summon. Auto teleport into instances and auto raid groups was pushing it too far, imo.
I agree with this, wotlk’s LFD was too far
I agree, Wotlk was bad towards the end. Dungeon finder and especially heirlooms were terrible. In my opinion, heirlooms was the first step towards the bad retail power leveling since herilooms made leveling easier) and item rarity problem (having blue items and epics was no longer special).
Strip out all that bad from WotLK for WoW Classic and the same for TBC.
To summarize what I want: TBC with no flying mounts ever, WotLK with no playable Death Knights.
More or less. I understand using #NoChanges in reference to the state of Classic, but not to the possible addition of new legacy expansions, as was the case here.
I wouldn’t say that it’s not constructive - it’s hard to know what Blizz may or may not do re- expansions after ‘Vanilla’
I suppose it’s a bit disingenuous to be calling for the bypass of Cataclysm approximately 6 years before it would be relevant if Blizz chose to return-launch each expansion over time
You should all calm down and either enjoy what you have or move on
TBC isn’t bad but it is so much less than wow should be. They made all the fast and easy quick fixes. Streamlined the game and did a few horrible mistakes.
Flying, ruining the world by making it smaller and less dangerous, it ruined wpvp and no making it easier for max lvl players to gank is not wpvp. People where just flying everywhere not doing pvp at all.
Resilience gear from pvp, ruining all items you got from dungeons and raid. You killed end boss but stil got owned by an idiot doing 10 arena matches each week. Because res gear made spell and Crit gear useless. So you took from the masses to a peace the few.
Balance classes around 3vs3 teams and 1vs1 ruined all fun and crazy stuff. It should be an rpg meaning getting jumped by a rouge should mean death. And a rouge caught in the open should run for his life to hide.
I sincerely hope they don’t release tbc. Not because I don’t want you who liked it to have it but simply because I want WoW to be so much more! The game it should be. I hope that is WoW2 but I will settle for wow classic +.
What I do think is interesting is how to improve the game. How to make other classes and spec viable without just making them more like another. Preserve the fantasy of the class. How to improve honor system without making the good parts from the existing vanish. And how to add new dungeons, continents, areas without making the old ones obsolete.
Tbc don’t do this. But what does tbc have that is better without ruining some part of the game and how to get there without doing all the stupid stuff from tbc?
The problem with this train of thought is that “what does TBC have that is better” varies a lot depending on what kind of audience you ask.
Stuff like shorter dungeons, Badges of Justice, raid size, lack of world buffs and weaker consumables - and yes, even flying and arenas - will be looked upon more or less favourably by the TBC audience, but the Vanilla audience is much colder towards them. Depending on which of the two groups prevails over the other, we’ll probably end up with a game tailored mostly towards one audience or the other… or some bastardized version that doesn’t satisfy either.
It makes a lot more sense to just release TBC and let people who prefer TBC have it, while people who prefer Classic still have Classic.
I mean, if the game is good, do you rly need to keep adding content to make it enjoyable? I could run TBC dungeons/raids endlessly, even in 2.4.3, and never get bored (I’d just roll alts etc. if I wanna try something new, or maybe get a taste of PvP).
What about you and Classic? Or is Classic’s endgame too shallow for you?
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All that good stuff but they still destroyed the integrity of the game by introducing pandas as a playable race. You obviously you wont agree as you are a panda lover. But your average Joe thought a panda-themed expansion is an embarrassing concept for the WoW brand.