Casual player's thoughts - titanforging is FINE

Community General Discussion
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Do you do Heroic raiding? Because most groups I’ve been apart of that do it are around 360-365 ilvl. Compare that to a 355-360 ilvl LFR raider and you can TELL it’s wrong.

A Normal raider should be around 355-360, and lfr raider should be around 340-345. And yet, an LFR raider is on par with a Normal raider, and are only 10 ilvl’s lower than the average Heroic raider, even though the items that drop are a 30 ilvl difference.

This warlock is an Heroic raider, almost 3 clears on heroic (Which is more than a lot of people), and yet I’m sitting at the same ilvl as an LFR raider. Seem fair?

The ONLY way a heroic raider can majorly out-ilvl an LFR raider is if they also spend hours doing Mythic+ dungeons as well.

So, let’s say, you get 1 person who doesn’t do any dungeons and does LFR raider+ all the outside content, they’ll be at about 350-360 ilvl.
You get another person who doesn’t do dungeons and does Heroic raiding + everything outside, they’ll be at about 355-365 ilvl.

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My time is way too finite for such an experiment.

You know those posts about the duplicated items in the M+ chest that pop up on every Wednesday? I don’t have the source right now, but Blizzard already stated that they gonna change how the M+ chest determinates which item you get. So people gonna see more “appropriate rewards” in the item slots they need upgrades.

There is a reason you get that “random” item.
There is a reason you see that add on your facebook page.
And maybe there is a reason your item get titanforged?

Luck still remains a huge part of the equation. But I no longer believe “randomness” means the same nowadays that it used to mean. I would call it “controlled randomness”

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As I’ve said, it’s not “just” titanforging doing this, it’s all the ways people can get given loot, such as Warfronts and the Mythic weekly quest when that’s up. But, titanforging plays a roll in it as well. Unless you’re doing the higher end content (M+10’s and Mythic raids) then you don’t really FEEL stronger than those who are doing the low end content.

There’s no progression, apart from either doing LFR-Heroic or doing Mythic. There’s no in-between. It’s either you’re on pat with 80% of the community, or you’re above them.

I’ve just seen someone who has 3 Normal kills and 1 HC kill (G’huun, so a boosted person at that) and no M+ dungeons ran, and they’re sitting at 357 ilvl… This warlock is at 358… I know it’s only “small examples”, but these should never exist. When I’ve put more time in, done more content, and pushed myself a little more, why should I be on par with those who haven’t JUST because my luck is terrible and RNJesus hates me?

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thats some conspiracy there, yet i dont belive any of us will ever find out about it being true or not

226

well you have the answer in your own post, do mythic raids.

it is true tho that blizzard is killing its own content by adding welfare gear xD

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But why should I “have” to do Mythic raids JUST to beat an LFR raider in Ilvl, when I’m already clearing Heroic raids? Can’t you see the problem in that?

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Yes I do raid heroic regularly now for months , and I know how the numbers look around for heroic raiding people. I really don’t care that lfr people can now get up to 360 il of gear, that’s not impacting my gameplay in any way or of my friends.

Well the problem which you are mentioning now has a lot to do not with titanforging but the fact that Blizzard really lowered down the chances for the loot to drop in the raids but I’m guessing how that was because it wanted for the people also to get the gear from other sources and not just from the raids.

There were some weeks in which I did got nothing from the raid, but I played in mythic + , which did helped me out to speed up the gearing process.

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ofc i see the problem with that, thats why i said:

but unless you come with a solution along with your complain, its not going to have any impact on people, who have atleast some interest in solving this…

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If you do it as a guild, then there’s no problem. But, there is a problem if you pug it. 360 ilvl is where people should be doing Heroics. And yet, they got to that ilvl by just doing LFR and world content.

So, they join an Heroic run, constantly die, get kicked, then complain about “the toxicity of the community”. It happens all the time. People who don’t have the skill to do the content are at the ilvl where they SHOULD be doing it. And this isn’t me saying “all LFR raiders are non-skilled players”. This is me saying, because of the inflation of ilvl, due to Warfronts/WQ’s/TF and RNG, people are joining things they are not good enough to do, and then complaining it on others rather than their own abilities, which causes more problems.

It’s a snowball effect, and it’s going to carry on happening throughout the expansion.

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Edit: I said “Easy”, but, it’s more “This solution should solve it”. Lower WF so it can only +5 and TF can only +10. That way, LFR raiders who only do WQ’s and such for items can only get max ilvl items of 350.

Also, lower the items you get from Warfronts and quests that give high ilvl gear, so have them around 350 as well, meaning that, at some point, the only way to increase your ilvl is to start doing the harder content.

That would create progression in the game again.

Edit2: The downside to this is that WF/TF has been apart of the game for a bit now, and this will just cause more people to quit the game because “They have nothing to do”. So, I don’t really “think” there is a way to solve it anymore :-/

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Yeah, that’s true. I mean, I haven’t even done Normal, very few Mythics (3, I think? Of which 2 were Mythic-0, just dipping my toes in) and I’m sitting at around 353, give or take. Some PvP-stuff, I think one from that Warfront-thingy, and I think one lucky Warforged or Titanforged thing. Might be two.

But I guess we have different ideas about what gear is. It seems to me that you see gear as some kind of reward - you do this thing and then you get the gear as a reward for that. And from that perspective, I can see why you’d think someone who’s never done the content you have (and probably won’t, either) shouldn’t have the gear you have, or something equivalent.

But my view is that gear is just a tool. The better tools I have (if you imagine that I’m, say, a carpenter), the better job I can do - likewise, the better gear I have, the better I can fulfill my role while playing.

But don’t worry - you (probably) won’t find me begging to get into your pick-up M+ or raids. And I like to think that if I’d ever want to, I’d take some time to watch videos and so on to learn what I should be doing. And then I expect to be rejected, since I’m just a dps-warrior and not someone more useful :wink:

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I will now mention again what some other people have mentioned how gear doesn’t always need to correlate with the skill. I know the people which are good players which played in the past but don’t have the time atm to seriously raid so they don’t have high level of gear and I seen heroic raiders and the people with high gear failing in both raids and mythic + , also I have seen in the past the people with the lower gear surpassing in performance in the PvE content the people with the better gear.

So even if you would exclude the LFR people from getting into your higher level pugs that wouldn’t guarantee the success of your runs or that you would one shoot everything in them. And the barrier for people getting into that content already exist since a lot of them already require 370 il to join or the curve.

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I see gear as both a tool and a reward. I see it as a tool to progress through the game, and a reward for doing the content for the game. I’m strictly speaking of those who don’t/can’t progress due to skill levels/IRL issues and other things. If they are not going to move past LFR, then they don’t need Normal+ ilvl gear.

At 363 on my other Warlock, if I went into LFR, it’d be overkill. On this Warlock, at 358, it’d be overkill. Between 340-345 ilvl is all that’s needed for LFR and Mythic dungeons for max ilvl, cause it can be done at 320 ilvl for raids, and 300 for dungeons.

If they brought more progression to the game, then I don’t think wf/tf would have as much impact as it does. But, it’s so linear, it’s almost unrewarding to go from LFR to Heroics, apart from getting achievements.

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Ireally don’t care about Raiding nor rankings.

However…
Gear only takes effect on PvE, which is great because PvP is all about skill and whatnot, so.

What is the problem when a guildmate that gets a high-roll?! He gets better gear which will help everyone in the group by progressing faster. Of course he can leave the guild, but that could happen even without the titanforge and after he had got what he was looking for.

side-note:
In a couple, if one makes a lot more than the other, it will help both and not only the one who gets it - I know, separation is a thing, but in general.

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236

Well, it feels crappy if i get the same item but without WF/TF/Socket.

We have done the same content, might have dealt the same dmg, have made the same mistakes but he gets a better item than i do.

Imagine if both of us would have gotten 10 of a resource that lets us upgrade an item manually instead. We would still have the same progression for the guild while having a certainty that after x boss kills, we will both get an upgrade instead of him getting an upgrade and me being left behind for an uncertain amount of kills of that boss.

Imagine if i have done 5k more dps than him, i get a 385 item while he gets the same item in 395, now it get’s worse, cause he will probably not benefit from the better item as much as i would.

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Oh yes, I absolutely agree with that (I thought I had started out agreeing with that point, but for some reason I cut it out before posting). The only reason to willingly, repeatedly do content that we’re overgearing (speaking as dps, that is) is to see our names at the top of the damage meters - or to get that one (transmog, possibly) item that’s just being stubborn about not dropping.

Being even at 340 (or so) in a Heroic 5-man felt a little embarrassing, I was in there and wondering half the time “Why am I even here? There’s no real upgrades for me or anything…unless it WFs/TFs, maybe?”

Now, if people could only be a little more honest about their experiences - I’d feel better, I imagine, if I were getting together a raid taking on someone at, say, 335 who admits that they’ve only done it on LFR before, than someone at 365 who’s just been super-lucky and/or put in the Battleground-time to get to that level but has never done it, on any difficulty (and won’t even admit to that).

Yeah, maybe. I guess this is just a question of perspective or taste. But I remember, back in Pandaria, going from LFR to Flex (and doing reasonably well … I didn’t die very often (apart from wipes), and didn’t get told off for being bad at my role very often, either) felt pretty cool; then again from Flex to Normal (still not dying unusually often, still not getting chewed out) was a bit of “Uhh … I actually made it? Heck yeah!”.

But of course, I’ve not gone that route in BfA (well, not yet anyway). Maybe things are different now.

Ah, the drama-stories from when particular classes had their legendaries the whole raid had to help them with - get the legendary, leave the guild.

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I am not talking about gear… stop bringing gear into my reply. It’s completely irrelevant.

I already told you I wasn’t talking about gear, and that I should have cut off the quote better to relect this in my first post! I thought it was pretty obvious with my next one, but guess not…

Edit: Apparently you and Powerprime(?) isn’t the same person, though my second reply is just above the one I just quoted. I’m gonna go edit my first reply’s quoting once I get to my comp, to avoid more people falling into the trap.

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I disagree with you, as I have mentioned before, I pay for the game… I deserve exactly everything that is available in the game because it is available to All Of Us. If you choose not to get the free gear available to you or not as lucky when it comes to our great RNG that is all on you.

I do not want to argue with you nor I am saying that you are not casual player, I am simply stating that we all deserve to get this gear different ways and according to our play styles. I know you can argue that I do not need this high level gear to run around the world but I want to and it is my opinion and as of right now B also agrees.

It is impossible to satisfy everyone, there is always going to be those that are unhappy with the changes. There is no gray in this game, there is only black and white. You could also say there is only gray, because everyone is unsatisfied and satisfied.

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Again, just because you PAY for the game doesn’t mean you DESERVE everything in the game, you still SHOULD work for it. If I go out now and BUY a car, pay the tax and make it so I can drive except for having a License, does that mean I should be ALLOWED to go and drive? Or should I have to put the work in the get to the point where I AM able to drive?

You should only deserve the level of gear that YOU can work towards, nothing more, nothing less. You don’t deserve Heroic gear unless you put the work in for it. Same with everything else in this game, mounts, transmog, pets, PvP, titles, achievements.

Everything in the game should be EARNED by people. The harder difficulty you do, the more you should get, and yet, this isn’t completely the case.

There isn’t much difference between a Heroic raider and an LFR raider, and yet they’re 2 completely different worlds (So to speak). There’s not much point raiding Heroics, when you can have the same level of gear from much simpler content.

But, most of this is down to the welfare gear being thrown around, more than wf/tf. But, wf/tf still does make a difference, since you’re adding the Welfare gear you get from simple content + the wf/tf gear you get from low content, meaning you’re at the same ilvl and same gear as those who have pushed more content than you, and it’s just not a fair system.

The ONLY people who seem to be higher are those doing +10’s or doing Mythics, anything lower and you’re on par with LFR raiders, no matter what you do (So to speak).

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Exactly!!!

There are higher keys to do, if you want to be better then do it, if not then you can only get so far with “wf/tf” as you say.