That’s also because people expect to clear tiers in the first month (or less), with 2-3 resets (not even full clears) worth of gear. People wouldn’t have expected to clear TK in a couple of resets.
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true but, back in the days raiding was different, today is pretty much an esport/competition and raiders are much much more better at raiding. only way to prevent them from not clearing the raid in the first week is to completly rework how game works nowadays. so
- either you stop giving loot to players for a lot of things they do and make good pieces drop from raid only. hence forcing people to raid in order to progress further in raid. when method clearned uldir their average ilvl was 360 if i remember right which means there’re A LOT of ways to get good gear hence be fully prepared for raid opening.
- you make raids sooo hard number wise that people simply cant kill bosses due to it being mathematically impossible.
- just add A LOT of hard mechanics and only 100 guilds will clear raid fully during its tier.
Yes, but all of the above affect negatively the rest of the players outside cutting edge guilds - which is kinda wrong, you can’t tailor your game around less than 1% of your community.
What do you mean by “mathematically impossible”? Did they need more gear (basically to farm more time) or it was just plain impossible even having mostly non-tf gear that drops in the place?
360 ilev is not a lot, considering that’s less than full hc gear. Normally you would have a mix of hc and mythic gear when you kill deeper bosses, and Taloc&Mother were loot pinatas anyway.
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This is a bit unlikely, which is why I say that while I understand why the MoP version of the warforge system was there, the reasons for the current one are not clear (to me). Any single item has (at least according to reddit people that attempted to calculate the warforge probability) a 33% chance to warforge (+5 item levels), with another 33% chance for each subsequent +5 it receives.
Assuming the current meta, there is a raid with 8 bosses, each having a 25% probability to give loot through the personal loot system (if I am not mistaken, there are 4 drops for a raid of 20 per boss). In order for this item to be BiS (the equivalent of the pre-MoP current raid tier loot during any given period), brushing over the stats the item has (different subject at any given time), there would be a probability of 0.25 * 0.33^2 * 100 = 2.7% - because the item needs to warforge twice to become titanforged, from ilvl 385 to 395. So the avg expected items per an Uldir mythic run that are 0.027225 per boss times 8 bosses = 0.2178 items, which is in point of fact less than half the expected in Classic.
The weekly mythic+ dungeon chest item is in an even more dire situation, because it is only guaranteed to be itemlevel 380, which means it needs to warforge 3 times to become BiS, and the entire loot table from mythic dungeons is taken into consideration, so targeting a specific item in this way is nigh impossible. Either way, brushing aside that the drop might not be desirable given the stats in the first place, only the chance for it to become ilvl 395 is abysmal: 0.33^3 = 0.035937 - this is the expected amount of top itemlevel items per week from the weekly chest.
The items from mythic +10 or higher dungeons all start at a base of 370 item level, so they need to each improve 5 times before they become BiS. This means that every item looted from a mythic dungeon has a ~0.391% probability of being top ilvl.
If you simply add them all up, you would expect 0.2178 + 0.0359 = 0.2537 items per week at top itemlevel expected if you manage to clear Uldir mythic. To reach at the very least the expected number of BiS items you used to get in Classic (which was, as I explained before, lower than any expansion that ensued afterwards) of 0.425 items per week, you would need to loot 43.81 items from mythic+ dungeons during that given week. Even at an optimistic 80% probability to loot an item from every single dungeon you do (you would only do high dungeons, more than +10, with a good clear speed), and an average of 30 mins per dungeon clear + travel time, you would still need to spend a weekly 1642.9 minutes, or 27.38 hours MORE time than in any pre-Legion expansion, including Classic, to achieve the same thing.
This is, simply put, inhuman to ask of anyone, and thus it is impossible for practically all players to do. And this does not include the probability for those same items to also have sockets and tertiary stats, which is how the true BiS would be. This is why the current system is abhorrent. If there is a concern that casual players fall behind too much, a system that awards a fixed weekly quantity of items of higher itemlevel than the content they are completing, such as the Warfront 370 item, is a far better solution, not this skinner box that is titanforging and sockets system they implemented in Legion and BfA.
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its pretty negative for cutting edge guilds as well. what;s up there is tailored around top 100 guilds or something similar, and yes its a bad idea, hence its not in the game. game changed a lot since old days and with it raiding changed too.
pretty much
we’re talking about first week when mythic raids opened tho. so 360’s a lot at that time 
None of these are solutions. They are the complete opposite.
Do you want this game to die?
You cannot cater to the elitist mythic raider. You. Simply. Can’t.
good numbers.
at the end of the day the chance for someone to obtain BiS is close to zero.
I mean, you need 395 ilvl item with a socket and best stats for it to be BiS.
it wasnt a solution, I named them as things that would stop people from clearing raids in a week. and I do think all of those things are bad.
Ah ok, misunderstood then. My bad.
But people don’t NEED BiS. They just don’t. They can do fine without it.
It’s their unrealistic craving that’s making them unhappy. It’s an unhealthy way of playing the game and even though they are allowed to do just that, it’s unfair to make their own self-inflicted problem a problem for all the other players.
Did you factor in the guaranteed weekly chest?
Further more, the fact that any difficulty has a chance to titanforge adds to the chances too - yes, lower chances, but still adds up.
I didn’t play classic, but how often did you meet fully raid geared people back then? Maybe TF is simply the new purple, god knows the “epic” quality isn’t really epic anymore for ages.
Yes, it’s the 0.0359 expected items.
Sure, I could make the calculation even more complicated, but the point is that all that is extra time you need to spend that you didn’t need to in pre-Legion expansions.
Far more often than you meet someone in full 395 now, trust me on that. 
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The day when Blizzard will pull the systems which keep the game balanced and when will start catering to 1 % only of the vocal hardcore playerbase and when it will allow for the gear gap to raise drastically between different groups of players I and many more casual players will just pull off our subs and support to this game.
I wonder how long would the game continue existing and getting updates if only that small minority would be happy and if everyone else would leave.
I understand what you are saying but what you have described has nothing to do with ilvl, WF or TF. Your issue is the stats you get on the gear, I am still sporting 335 ilvl rings on one of my characters due to terrible stats on higher ones.
No one can do anything about this (other then devs) and removing TF (WHICH IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE) will not resolve your issue.
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Mate, a socket is roughly 15-20 iLvLs worth of secondary stats. It has more haste due to the socket than the same ring in 370, i’ve given the ring in 370 to other people cause it’s in fact not an upgrade over the 350 with socket, and the same ring in 380 is roughly a 4% upgrade, it has to do with the WF/TF/+Socket/Tertiary system.
I do not disagree with you but as we all know that no matter what system you pick WF/TF/+Socket/Tertiary system or any other, everything we do in wow has to do with RNG.
Removing that system does not solve the issue. in the instance of TF you will remove the ability to get a chance at upgrading your item thats all. You will still continue to get crappy gear no matter what you do.
Solves one thing… A guild mate of mine has ilvl of 384 and we’re 4/8 M. It might just be me, but the progression is all off… Raiding used to be final step when it comes to content and now the only reason for him to do mythic uldir is to pray to rng gods to give him the item he needs and in order that item be useful, it needs to proc titanforge. And we’re back to RNG^2 when it comes to gearing. Fun right?
Seems like Blizz is trying to turn wow into d3, but farming rifts isn’t even close to farming m+.
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Look at all the posts of folks getting the TF on a drop and most of the gear is still worse then their previous piece. If you asked me, I would say to say to improve the RNG when it comes to secondary stats or revert to a certain previous expansion to resolve these issues.
Indeed. I’m at 380 equipped now, everything from uldir mythic is either WF or with socket so my only chance at getting better gear from the first 5 bosses(apart from mothers dagger) is to get the gear i have but in 395+socket or it won’t be an upgrade in the first place.
I just run mythic for running mythic, doing progress and i hoping that we will finally come to zul, where i can actually get upgrades even if the items dont WF/TF(Again, daggers and Azerite shoulders)
like what are you talking about? i understand almost everyone who is playing pve raiding content… and on the top end as well as the low end this system is not doing anyone any good… maybe parts of it affect different players in a good and bad way at the same time, but they are bad as a whole… you might be right if it comes to do pvp or pet battle or farming mounts, yes i have no clue about this type of playing wow, since it appears just booring and pointless to me, nonetheless if you are doing this type of content, the problems i am tackling are not going to affect you at all anyway, whats your point???
good for you, you just dismatled his point, thanks
well you are right here, and i dont want it to be standard. what i meant is: everyone who wants to see himself as a raider should be aiming at that difficulty, otherwise you are just swimming around doing basically nothing of challenge…
lfr is not raiding… people are queueing and afk-ing in the raid or doing only autohits or just die on purpose and still get loot… try this one in hc or mythic pls.
well i dont know where you got your data from, but lets say i belive your claim here. like i said i am not for lfr being abolished, i just dont understand how people are going in there for having a good time, when i couldnt even carry the raid with advice and an insanely overgeared character. Looks like this is the only segment of raiding, i will always fail to understand…
well since you have absolutely no data backing it up and seeing how blizz is catering to the casual playerbase is destroying the game and killing subs already, id like understand how you claim that?
you know the sports equipment the causal runners or skiiers or bikers are buying was first oof the best sh*t the top sportsman had? they tested it, they perfected it and they won with it. yet here you are to claim that the casuals actually know whats better for the game when in reality the top 1% are actually pushing what is best for sports…
just saying we are having it the casual way for a while now and since the implementation of lfr the sub numbers are steadily dropping, if you have noone to play in the top league cause they are boored and not challenged, you have noone pushing and promoting the game and its going to die, now maybe im wrong here and the more blizz is going to cator to casuals, the more pple will come back, but i highly doubt that you will want to play with such people, since there will be nobody doing good guides exploring the boundries and push those boundries and motivate players to do so, since everyone will be a casual.
i fail to understand how you dont see that you are shooting yourself in the foot here im sorry.
i have never seen anyone in 390 overall ilvl or more to be honest, i think there are some people already having this ilvl in the bag but they dont eq it cause it would lead to a performance loss… and that is the big flaw in activisions system in my opinion, here you go have a trophy gearpiece to sit in your inventory, have fun you casual xD
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