(2) Set Bonus: Odyn’s Fury deals 50% increased damage and causes your next 3 Bloodthirsts to deal 150% additional damage and have 100% increased critical strike chance against its primary target.
(4) Set Bonus: Bloodthirst critical strikes reduce the cooldown of Odyn’s Fury by 2.5 seconds.
The Odyn s Fury dilemma:
I don’t have a problem with the tier set being linked to a talent. More so in this case when Odyn s Fury is fun to use and a fan favorite from Legion, and we have the option for ST and AOE (Dancing Blades/Titanic Rage) vs Onslaught and Tenderize (pick and forget both ST and AOE)
For 10.2 tier set,
If the intended gameplay loop is to spam Bloodthirst, fishing for crits, which in turn procs CSHB, more rage from CSHB, more Rampage, more Recklessness uptime (via Anger Management and Unbridled Ferocity) which translate in more Bloodthirst crits. I like this !
With (4 set) bonus, in single target, Bloodthirst crits means lower CD on Odyn s Fury which in turn means a higher uptime of Dancing Blades on ST (helps with our ST dmg), and in AOE, more Odyn s Fury casts is less WW casts via Titanic Rage. I like this too.
If this is the case, I think the (2 set) bonus need a redesign by:
- Increase base damage of Bloodthirst (so it feels good to press/spam vs RB)
- Increase the base Bloodthirst crit chance by a flat % (20% idk)
- Casting Odyn s Fury additionally increase the dmg and crit chance for your next 3 Bloodthirst (or something)
By doing this:
- We have the option to gear in more crit and get close to 80-90% for Bloodthirst via gear, tier set, talents, and Recklessness buff.
- We have the option to take new talents based on our crit from gear like Bloodcraze, and maybe play with Reckless Abandon, if we don’t need the Recklessness uptime.
- Deft Experience and maybe even full Annihilator can be finally an option.
- Number of points in Vicious Contempt 0/1/2, base on the fight and execute length.
- Odyn s Fury become more a rotational ability instead a 45 sec CD
- We again need to make a choice between Titans Torment/ Berserkers Torment.
But, if the intended gameplay design is to press Odyn s Fury, prioritize 3 empowered BTs and then continue whit the standard raging blow, rampage rotation, please reconsider, is just a 10.1 tier set remake (Kaching!!!).
This also means we are playing with the exact same talents like in 10.1 just swap Onslaught for Odyn s Fury, again please reconsider.
my name is Kholer, a veteran of the PoS discord and current maintainer of the ww apl.
2pc: 5% chance to get a spinning crane kick proc that in return buffs a blackout kick by 100% (currently bugged and not consuming). Results in roughly 1proc per minute.
4pc: Consuming the proc reduces the cooldown of rising sun kick, fists of fury, strike of the windlord and whirling dragon punch by 1 second
The general idea of the tierset is very interesting, however its execution is very flawed at the moment. Spinning crane kick in st does no damage and we are near gcd capped in st already. Use a different trigger for this bonus, perhaps rising sun kick.
The 4 piece idea is nice, though cooldown reduction on whirling dragon punch is a joke since with current tuning we never get to cast it.
As a sidenote, this tierset is probably the weakest tierset u have ever designed. Due to it almost never proccing, the cooldown reduction is set way too low. We are currently expecting a bonus of 1% in total for 2 and 4p. To increase its value u need to buff the cooldown reduction and make the 2piece proc way more valuable (and proc more often)
Paladin - Protection
PvE Content (but also all content)
Set bonus so you don't have to scroll up
(2) Set Bonus: Judgment grants a stack of Sanctification, increasing your armor by 1% per stack. Upon reaching 10 stacks, your next cast of Consecration is empowered, increasing its damage and healing by 200% and its radius by 30%. Sanctification’s stacks are reset when your empowered Consecration ends.
(4) Set Bonus: While you are within an empowered Consecration, your abilities have a chance to deal 20% bonus damage or healing as Fire.
4 Set: States there’s a “a chance to deal” bonus damage when in fact it’s 100% chance to deal bonus damage on paladin spells (not any external damage like trinket procs, items, pots, phials, enchants or embellishments)
4 Set can’t proc damage from Seal of the Crusader
4 Set heal doesn’t proc on Crusader’s Reprieve, Lightforged Blessings, Light of the Titans, Touch of Light or any Absorbs or Leech
4 Set double dips on critical strike rating as the proc’s damage can also crit
4 Set If you heal others then you get the bonus healing not the target of the heal.
2 Set empowered consecration isn’t using the “new” consecration animation, big missed opportunity there
2 set doesn’t increase the size of Consecrations damage component, only the visual size and the size of the consecration part that applies the debuff on enemies, which is not the part that deals damage, it’s the spell that applies the Consecration slow if you have Consecrated Ground talented. You can test this yourself pretty easily, an enemy can have the debuff without taking the damage. Video(Streamable)
Dummy Testing Log 2 / Dummy Testing Log 1
Above 2 & 4 set bonuses for Protection Paladin are terrible and desperately need a change. They are weak, poorly designed & takes 0 consideration of how the spec is played.
The class and specialization being discussed - Protection Paladin
The game content type being referred to - All three (Raiding, M+ & PvP)
When and where you feel like your set bonuses will be the most and least useful… - Most or rather “only useful” when you as tank do not need to move at all for entire duration of encounter (or at least 20 seconds minimum for chance at 4 set proc), which is absolutely unlikely. Raids, M+ & even PvP, everything requires a lot of movement as a tank. This is just not possible. Moreover, casting any consecration post the enhanced one, immediately overwrites it. So “LEAST USEFUL” everywhere in all content.
Some sort of feeling about the above (positive, negative, indifferent) - BIG NEGATIVE
Below is a further breakdown of the set bonus issue & how it doesn’t sit well at all with the spec.
Armor has very low benefit as we already have high armor
The 2 set buff provides armor which is practically useless to protection paladin who already have high enough armor by default & acquire further with SotR & other talents in their kit. Due to this, the total damage reduction increase they receive from the extra 10% armor (2 set max stack) is somewhere around 2% DR, which is garbage compared to other class sets receiving flat out 10% damage reduction on top of extra damage done gained.
Consecration is recast constantly because of movement
First of all, Consecration is not exactly a damage spell but a spell which helps us with damage mitigation due to how our mastery interacts with it. Hence, we are forced to recast consecration every time we are forced to move out of it due to instance mechanics or mob/boss positioning (that is why it has such low cd ofc). Failing to do so is serious threat to survivability and consecration itself does very little damage. The empowered consecration gets overwritten by any new normal consecration cast so the buff will be lost even before one can actually ever proc the 20% damage/healing effect. Additionally, there is no guarantee & more likely one won’t be able to stay in same spot with that consecration; so the empowered consecration will never really get into play.
Choice of Nodes/ New Talent interactions
Sadly, these set bonus do not incentivize any new talent or playstyle that are different from what the spec is already using. The only nodes relevant to the set bonus are Golden Path & Seal of Mercy, but taking them has ZERO benefit & rather hefty utility loss due to losing nodes like BoP & BoS etc from class tree. No one in their right minds would force penalize themselves taking those underwhelming nodes just for sake of change.
TLDR; as a protection paladin we need to keep casting consecration repeatedly as we move, so any kind of set bonus interaction revolving around consecration is a big NO and bad for the spec. The spec doesn’t benefit much from armor since AM is not linear and it’s already an armor heavy class. Especially when buildup is this slow (1% each judgement upto 10%) & difficult to time effectively in combat.
Instead, having a 10%+ damage reduction buff or increase in overall block value would fit in more nicely in comparison.
I’ve corrected a couple of typos in the OP. The Paladin section now reads:
(2) Set Bonus: Expurgation lasts an additional 3 seconds and deals 50% increased damage. Casting Judgment or Divine Toll on a target with Expurgation causes Wrathful Sanction, dealing Holy damage to the target and resonating 20% of the Holy damage up to 4 nearby enemies.
(4) Set Bonus: Wrathful Sanction grants you Echoes of Wrath, causing your next Templar’s Verdict or Divine Storm to deal damage a second time at 50% effectiveness. This effect does not consume Judgment.
I’d like to provide feedback on the tier set:
Spec: Survival Hunter
Problem: Degenerate gameplay
The optimal way to use the tier set to get maximum damage is to use Fury of the Eagle as a “Wildfire bomb” and cancel it immediately, without hitting anything with it.
While I’m running towards my target I use Fury of the Eagle from 40y range. Activating the ability throws a free Wildfire bomb and gives me 15% crit and 15% crit dmg. Then I immediately use Coordinated Assault right after the GCD is up (which cancels the Fury of the Eagle channel which is anyway channeling in the “air” and not hittin anyone) and I charge to my target and spend the whole 15% buff duration while Coordinated Assault is up.
I consider this “degenerate gameplay” because the best way to use Fury of the Eagle is to never hit an enemy with it and only use it to get the buff then stop it immediately, because any second while you have the buff it provides is wasted when channeling Fury of the Eagle. The optimal way to spend the buff is to cancel FotE and use better abilities with the 15% buff aura.
Affliction M+ and general thoughts
With the introduction of the new talents systems it was “sold” as now everyone can have their own Fire Mage, Shadow Priest, any class. The uniqueness of it would come from possibility to freely spend x amount of point across the tree and tailor you unique class to express yourself in the game.
In 2 months I will be forced by game/developers to pick Soul Rot which I hate from bottom of my heart. If I would not want to follow what is expected from me and select Soul Rot talent, then I have to accept the fact that in season 3 I don’t have Tier Set and my outcome as DPS will be punished.
I understand the idea behind shaking up the trees but there is the line behind which some design decisions are killing the RP element of the game. When we take problem with forcing which talents to play and tier acquisition by non-raiders players, then I really regret that Tier Sets ever did came back or they are not just active in the raids.
The 2p deals really low damage.
The 2p promotes degenerate gameplay as in aoe, you will want to demonbolt every target to maximaize 2p uptime/damage.
The 2p is applied with demonbolt only for some reason when the CDR is affected by both demonbolt & Hand of gul’dan ? Having it be able to be applied by Hand of gul’dan would be such a massive QoL.
The Brand applied doesn’t detonate/explode on death. That means if your target dies with the brand applied, the brand deals no damage. it feels pretty bad.
The Doom Brand is 20s with 1s of CDR between demonbolt and hand of gul’dan. It is way too long. I’m sure the duration is because it is a “doom” brand which matches doom base duration. The problem is the duration of doom scales with haste which makes it better (and it is still never taken because its bad) whereas the 2p is always 20s regardless of how much haste you have.
The 4p summon does little damage. Doombolt gets outdamaged by Umbral Blaze a rng dot.
The 4p doomfiend proc chance is so abysmally low I spent 10 minutes applying demonbolt on 4 targets and managed to summon the doomfiend only twice.
The 4p doomfiend doesn’t even count as a pet (it probably counts as a totem i don’t know why) so it has 0 synergy with anything demonology warlock has to offer: Tyrant ? no. Fel Sunder ? No. Houndmaster stratagem ? No. Expendables ? No.
Literally just affected by intellect/spellpower. It feels really bad. We have a mastery increasing the damage of our demons by x% & our 4p summons a demon that is unaffected by literally everything our class has to offer. It is just a small totem that does a tiny bit of damage.
Again since the brand doesn’t detonate on death, the 4p is useless on any enemy that doesn’t last a very long time like a raid boss. Since mobs in dungeons or m+ for example don’t last very long, this 4p will potentially never proc in dungeons depending on RNG.
Tested on PTR - Fyrakk 2023-09-09T21:50:00Z
I don’t know who came up with the havoc dh boni but: good in concept, bad in execution. Just trying it for like 10 minutes on the ptr made several points obvious to me:
- It does not fit into the talent trees right now, as you kinda have to buff throw glaive to maximize the bonus damage, therefore losing blade dance damage or eyebeam/cs utility and uptime. It feels like it should make normal throw glaive obsolete but having to skill into it to have all benefits kinda messes that up because you lose so many other talents on the way.
- It does not feel rewarding. You just don’t “feel” the damage the passive glaives do, especially in a single target situation and the hunt is not only boring but also doesn’t do damage after the last few nerfs.
- The math does’nt add up. Blade dance hits like 4 times in ST which means, overall, 2 throw glaives and therefore 0.8 seconds CDR on the hunt. With 8 seconds cooldown on blade dance (-> 25% tempo) that means every 8 seconds, the hunts cooldown is down by 9 seconds (because 8+1) on average. If my math is correct that would mean 10 blade dance casts equal one the hunt - so a 10 second CDR on average. So thank you, instead of fitting 2 the hunts in 3 minutes, I can now fit 2.2 - 2.3. So on average after 8-9 hunts I get one for free. Now let me see a fight that takes 12 minutes please!
- Adding to the previous point: let’s say we get one more cast of the hunt we didn’t get before in a boss fight, looking at my logs that would be a dmg increase of maybe 1%. Not great.
- The hunt is a optional talent btw. What about that?
My suggestion would be:
Change the 2pc set to a talent option, put 4pc as 2pc and add interaction with essence break and the hunt debuff as new 4pc (e.g. “every chaos strike during the hunt debuff reduces essence break cooldown by 1 second” or something like that).
Also buff dh overall damage.
Also nerf momentum or give long arms/ automatic turn around after fel rush.
Also give third dh spec. We deserve it.
Please do not force mages to play Glacial Spike. I enjoy ice lance builds even knowing its 5% less dps than GS . This would widen the gab so large its not possible to play ice lance build anymore.
Yo homie. Its actually a dps increase for Storm to play with new tier set in ST.
(go to Earthshrine and check pins)
Though the build for storm in m+ is really bad as it sacrifices ALL single target to play with tier set.
Its fine since the build is cringe either way
Implying the 20 button playstyle of elementalist isn’t cringe
If dont changing the talent tree, the Tier is really bad, forcing to use talents for it, and changing all playstyle. Bad times for DH with bad new Havoc´s tier, and loosing the very good Vengance present tier.
Same thing happens with Havoc one, and looks like in most of classses the new Tier empowers the least used/weakest talents.
In the current state the elemental 4 piece isn’t gonna see any real use in ST due to the Further Beyond atrocity that turns us into a 2 button specc.
And if you nerf or change Further Beyond PLEASE giver us a proper buff in lacking areas or we will be so far behind other speccs in every aspect. Last season we got a 10-12% ST damage nerf in ST when we were comparable to other top performing specs that saw no changes.
Now we are looking to sacrifice either a majority of ST or AoE to do either well, and anything cleave or m+ is gonna be supremely uncompetitive.
- The class and specialization being discussed - Protection Paladin
- The game content type being referred to - Raiding, M+
- When and where you feel like your set bonuses will be the most and least useful… - Least useful Everywhere. No joke. As someone who has played Prot Paladin since Legion i can say this is the Worst set Design so far. Warcraft has shifted into a Lot of movement in M+ and Raid and Consecration as a Basic spell still works because we can Cast it so frequently. Basing a Set around it would be very tough and in the current iteration just not fun nor useful.
- Some sort of feeling about the above (positive, negative, indifferent): Negative
The 2 set Stacking armor is useless when we start pulls and at 10 stacks gives us MAYBE AT MOST 2% more Physical dmg reduction. Even if that were to change to just general dmg reduction having to Stack it makes it very bad to play around as other Tanks just get 10% in general. We frequently recast Consecration. Even if you were to change it so it was always Empowered for x Amount of time when we reach 10 Stacks it would still not benefit us with what it actually does. The Increased Size is more dangerous than actually useful with the upcoming M+ dungeons. I don’t wanna be constantly scared that i might pull something accidentally because Consecration is larger (Also 30% Size is nothing with the distance we still have to cover for Mechanics and such). I for one do not care about the extra dmg it deals. I am a Tank at the end of the day and i mainly need to just stay alive. The healing is useless as at most it would empower Word of Glory and Path of Light (If for whatever reason you would go for that very bad Talent). Word of Glory would just overheal us and the pathetic healing from Path of Light now is just useless.
ALSO probably the biggest Issue i have with it is the basic thing you yourself set out to do with the Mage Rework and the Removal of Rune of Power. What you have done with this Set is basically just ignored what you said as to why no one likes Rune of Power and ignored everything about it and made a Tier Set for a different Class. It might be a stretch but i think overall people like the removal of Rune of Power. Please do not give us a Rune of Power Tier set.
The 4 set just seems like you looked at season 2 Set, saw the fire dmg dot and thought “Let us do that again just instant this time”. Very imaginative. It just is basically very boring.
TLDR; as a Prot Pala we need to move a Lot. Consecration recasts just happen and we should not have to watch for our Stacks. It does nothing for us basically. I would go for just a new Tier set which doesn`t revolve around Consecration. It would be like asking a Druid Tank to wait for using his Iron Fur just so it might be very slightly better but very likely die before you get to use it. For Example just make Shield of the Righteous give us a small Shield based on the dmg. This way we would even benefit from the 4 Set increase in dmg into the Shield and just more dps.
*Update after changes:
2pc: The change from Armor to dmc reduction was a step in the right direction (Which was obvious it will happen). Still having to stack it and dropping it might make us suddenly die still with big pulls in m+ but you can play around it so it’s ok.
4pc: The dmg increase from 20% to 40% was again ok with how little we most likely will be able to use it. With a certain skill level you can dodge stuff while in your consecration so for m+ maybe more usefull. For Raid you still have to watch when to drop it though.
Suggestion from my side: Drop it back to like 20% or even less but make the Empowered Con move with the pally. You would literally just have to add the Glyph effect from way back when to it and Balancing it would also be so much more easy and drop a lot on the skill requirement for using it correctly. (Which you will need otherwise we fall even further behind in dps compared to other tanks)
All in all going in the right direction (Even though i doubt much more will happen. Maybe the revert on the dps increase on 4pc) as it seems we are pretty locked into the whole Consecration Set sadly.
The only thing i still wish for is to have the bug fixed with Consecration that has been there since Legion and still is Present. Us not gaining the Con Buff sometimes when casting it. Also the Range increase in Empowered consecration still seems to be just cosmetic. Maybe a Bug?
Overall after the update still pretty bummed we get a Rune of Power Set after it has been removed from Mages for a major positive effect there. Pally will probably not be terrible in S3 but with Competition like Brewmaster Monk Set and Vengeance DH a lot (including me) will probably switch to those just because of those awesome sets.
(2) Set Bonus: Demonbolt now applies a Doom Brand that explodes after 20 seconds, dealing (79% Spell Power) Shadow damage to nearby enemies. Demonbolt and Hand of Gul’dan reduce the duration of the primary target’s Doom Brand by 1 second.
(4) Set Bonus: Hand of Gul’dan damage increased by 15%. When Doom Brand explodes, you have a chance to summon a Doomfiend that blasts your target for (81% Spell Power) Shadow damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds.
Plz, just rework this set. This set is not interesting, not effective and causes negativity. Ask yourself: what will change if this set doesn’t happen? My answer: nothing. Set does not affect any aspect of the demonologist. Neither on demonology resource generation, nor on synergy with other abilities. The problem is not even in the numbers, because they can be tuned. This set does not improve the game on the demonologist, and in an AoE scenario it makes it even worse.
Plz, just rework this set.
Would Blizzard consider changing Fire tierset into something that actually makes the rotation more interesting ? Currently you don’t have to do anything and it’s not very engaging…
I’ve asked people around me and people around the official mage discord and the vast majority agrees that the new tierset is very boring , even a small rotation change that is not very punishing would be better, i’m open for anything at this point…
Thanks in advance
You can’t use the 4-set bonus reliably as a holy priest because it requires you to have a charge to use it.
If you don’t have it off CD you have to wait until you get it off CD, given how often you use serenity it will be unusable until you have cycled it again if it procs after you’ve used the holy word. This really should be changed so that you can use the spells regardless of the CD left on the spell.
If you’re running miracle worker, it also kind of promotes holding on to one charge just so you can use the 4-set bonus without having to cycle the holy word. I think that’s pretty degenerate gameplay.