[Concluded] Advisory Council of the Alliance

Zandalar Tribe
22

Alright so we basically agree that it is okay to do stuff like that if the majority/everyone allows it and pretends/suspends disbelief. Given the amount of power we are giving ourselves by joining and agreeing on those rules is Gigantic compared to minor lore characters, which we can utilize to enrich roleplaying. Be it Isiden Perenolde or someone from Uldum/Tanaris. And personally I would love to see him being put on trial.

Now the question, where do we draw the line? We are already suspending disbelief with the amount of power and position we are putting ourselves in, but when will it be too much? This line must be very Clearly Visible and easy to understand.

1 Like
23

I think it’s worth mentioning here that not every character allows death/punishment/injury/etc OOCly, meaning that we need that person’s consent in OOC discussion before proceeding with a trial. This ensures that we keep the roleplay fun over all!

24

Yea, thats part of what I said as well, and the other part goes without saying I think

25

Wonderful! I’m glad we’re coming to agreement n_n

26

I underlined this fact too: The whole “justice”-aspect must always rely on OOC-coordination and agreement between the involved parties, and the character must ICly choose to be tried by the Council. Or else, as Elisande and I agree on, we would be way over our own heads when power and influence is concerned. Every player will always have the right not to be a part of our affairs, we can never truly enforce our position against a player’s wishes, the Council’s powers will at all times be counting only towards factions and players who volunteer to be a part of this as a community effort.

As for the line:

  • We can never ever claim to act on behalf of the Alliance in its official capacity, only as its proxy through the relatively independant power of our own characters and factions’ decisions and influence

  • We can under no circumstances claim that our authority is confirmed by any actual named NPC or figure of lore, and can thus never truly force our will onto characters and players who oppose it. We hold power only of members of factions involved, as well as independant characters whos player agree OOC and IC.

This should be simple and clear enough in my opinion, also referring to my former list of no and yes-scenarios. Acting as, through or on behalf of named NPCs and characters of lore is strictly speaking against all established guidelines in my opinion, and must be avoided as a part of the Council’s affairs at the very least. These characters arr Blizzard’s own, and it is unethical to use them without their knowledge or allowance. We must rely on our own self-made characters, and our own Council with only power over its own community and the characters and factions pledging as a part of it.

27

We are returning to the same issue again. The position of power that we will hold already suggests and proves that we have confirmation from NPCs of High Stature. I’m not talking about forcing our lore on everyone, as that requires both parties to accept in order to happen. And we are acting on behalf of alliance, a major force such us, especially with trading, answering attacks and judging criminals is done on behalf of alliance. There is no denying or going around on this one, and we are already deviating from our own rules.

If you truly want to respect your own rules, then the whole council/organization must be fully independent from all the npcs and be its separate thing, completely unaffiliated to the alliance.

I hate double standards. Either we embrace the relationships with the npcs or are completely independent from them.

(also I don’t agree that it is unethical, blizzard did it’s story and classic is in a state of limbo which won’t have any development lorewise, therefore it is completely okay to expand on that lore on our own, we are talking about roleplaying and freedom and fun here; and if you think that they don’t want for you to use their lore characters, they wouldn’t let you name your character by the same name. I also guarantee no matter how many tickets you submit asking about this, they will allow it, because it is decided by the communtiy and not blizzard).

28

But it isn’t the same Elisande. For us to create an initiative where a joint collection of factions under the banner of the Alliance funds their own Council to coordinate their own efforts is vastly different from creating an initiative that we claim to carry the King’s stamp of approval (or any other lore character). If the Justice-ordeal is the problem (for all else I don’t phatom can be an issue im this regard) it can of course be discussed, but trial-roleplay can be gold and thus it is common for these kind of affairs to appeal to some lenience.

If you want to defend the use of lore characters, directly or otherwise, you are free to. I am however adamant in my belief that you should always create a character and concept of your own, in addition to being your own source of influence and power instead of claiming it from sources and lore that none of us should ever hold sway over. As for that debate in full, it wars in the War Council topic, let us not spread it into this room as well.

You’re free to create a whole new topic though, if you want to continue discussing it.

29

Lets put the npc character discussion on hold.

I agree that there are more opportunities and the RP is gold with the Justice-ordeal. However doing it without approval of the alliance, would be considered as vigilante justice and is actually a crime. We either are our own vigilante faction, not afiliated to alliance, or part of it, which would include us having power granted by high ranking npcs. That is the thing, you do need King’s stamp of approval to Hunt, Trade, Retaliate and Trial people. Especially if we already are the members of the alliance, and doing it without that would be considered a crime

30

Yes, but that’s where lenience and general consensus is active, living with a general understanding that we indeed assume the Alliance to allow this initiative. For the sake of giving the RP community some degree of agency of course. It is just something we’ll have to live with, though of course making sure that we never ever force our will on to those who wants no part in it. In theory we’ll just be volunteers defending and serving Alliance lands, while also on occasions seeing it fit to trial and judge our own if the accused wouldn’t rather try his luck at an official trial.

This hasn’t been an issue in the past, and I doubt it will be for as long as we operate with the line I mentioned previously. We’re not getting anywhere with this particular disagreement though. The feedback has been noted.

31

Then since you are already controlling NPC action outside of sight (which I think we have decided that we are). Just embrace it fully and stop pretending, it will be much more immersive, as long as everyone is on board from the community. You are either part of an alliance and are granted the power do to the things you want, or are a separate being, fully independent and not affiliated to the alliance. Even the voluntery service is decided by the alliance whether they accept you or not. You can’t irl go and arrest people as a volunteer, and you couldn’t do that either in medival times. Everything requires permission from the Faction.

Do not start having double standards, it leads straight to downfall.

32

But from my point of view you are the evil one!

Goofy Star Wars-reference aside, in my mind it just isn’t the same to operate as a Council for Alliance on the terms of our joint factions’ cooperation and self-made influence as it is to claim to hold authority by Royal decree. One is a community initiative built on the community’s own characters, self-contained authority and their own electoral processes. The other is a goofy god-modder’s initative that clearly indicates our desire for authority bestowed us by SOME Npc/faction that we cannot and should not claim to be familiar with or possess influence over.

That is my stance, I do know yours and both acknowledge and respect it, but i disagree and with that I hope we can conclude this line of discussion. Preferably before it twists into an endless circle.

I do appericiate the feedback though, and am open to additional feedback on different aspects of the draft. I will also add an outlined OOC-part to better explain this line that I indeed agree must be made clearer. Especially in regard to the Justice-aspect and its requirement of appropriate OOC-coordination.

33

Forget about the ooc coordination we aren’t talking about that right now. What your suggesting isn’t realistic at all, and it still controls NPC characters actions (behind the scenes). It is like making a bubble that exists within alliance but at the same time independent and autonomous. Well you do you and people will decide whether they want to partake in that free fantasy or not. That applies to any rp really.

34

It would indeed be a bubble that exists within the Alliance, but still being independant and autonomous (within the framework that is reason and our understanding of what we can and cannot have the authority to do without overextending). That’s literally the point of any roleplay community initiative within the boundries of set lore. I’m not denying it, and really haven’t. I’m simply saying that this is what it is, the middle-way. As also said, it won’t be suitable for all. We won’t ever be able to enforce our self-made and self-contained authority on to unwilling players that aren’t participating!

But yes, my point from before stands: We must simply agree to disagree, and move on with other constructive feedback or not at all. This one has run its course and then some.

35

hmm…

Well.

For me yeah… looking at this entire thread and the essays written within, for RP I shall look for more non-serious stuff.

This is too much for me, maybe I am just a casual.

36

While the fundament described in the draft might well feel daunting, it’s important to note that it will all be considerably less “hardcore” for players who participate less directly than the Council itself: Either as voters, audience or speakers.

37

Hi, looking forwards to my eventual trial in the future. <3

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38

Having experienced something similar on Defias Brotherhood all those years ago I fully endorse this concept 100%!

And I certainly agree that it needs a solid and comprehensive base with which to draw the RP from, I would also be mindful that it isn’t prohibitive to new roleplayers or those who are on the more casual end of the scale :slight_smile:

3 Likes
39

Since you and others have brought it up: Yes, this is an idea that is indeed based on my experiences with the Council during my stay on Defias Brotherhood. It worked wonders for the community, and really stood out as the very fundament of most community efforts in-character. Only in this case I’m hoping to avoid a situation where Councillors remain seated for five years straight.

In that regard, do anyone have any idea of how to handle the election in practice? In-game letters? Voiced voting?

40

Wall of text inc.

First and foremost, let me state that I personally have troubles to respect the War Council, as it was one big mess that was not respecting lore at all. A lot of representatives were very casual roleplayers that have absolutely no idea how to allign their words and actions with reality of siutation Alliance is at. The outcome of the council, basically, was “WAR, WAR, WAR”, and that is simply laughable. Imo, people were simply expressing PvP preferences of their guilds IC, which is in my opinion completely wrong approach.

I am all in for creation of council that would unite more serious roleplayers, ideally those that have decent idea of lore impact of their words and decisions. I also have big problem orienting myself in current RP storylines, because I am not sure which ones are to be taken seriously, and which ones are not, as well as I am not sure how should my character act. Let me give You a few examples:

1) Ahnes and his dreadlord plot
Without spoiling anybody, as a person who roleplays quite generic knight, I have no idea how to perceive this. Their actions have suggested that Ahnes is a person of incrediblepower rivalled just by very few (escaping city that literally has army with it without being captured, for example). As a lawful character, should I try to arrest him and his allies? Do they even acknowledge that their actions would get them on KoS list pretty much anywhere across territories of the Alliance? Do they accept it, or not? How should my character act? I would very much appreciate the stance of the community regarding this.

2) New Alterac
While I am sympathetic to the idea, this plot is very complicated. I really like the guys that formed the guild, but I have no idea how to react to their presence in Stormwind, much like to Ahnes’.

I gave this extensive thought, and I am quite sure that their claim to the throne would take very (VERY) long time to be recognized by official places. They definitely would not be able to simply march to the city and announce their intention publicly. But that is what is happening.

Not sure how should I react to it. Is their guild IC pretending that they are sort of League of Arathor-ish force that already has been recognized by the Alliance (Stormwind), and their claim has the support? Or, do they risk being arrested for trying to ressurect kingdom that de-facto betrayed the Alliance and was dismantled by it? How would they react if they’d simply be exiled from the City of Stormwind for trying to sow the seeds of The Syndicate? Historically, making Your claim for any throne acknowledged by other powers is a major process, especially if said powers are inherently hostile to Your claim.

If anybody has any answers regarding my issues, I’d love to hear them. I think that we should form a forum, free of people that roleplay once in a blue moon, to reach an agreement on how to approach these fundamental issues. Every discord I have been part of so far is moderated and controlled by people that are far away from everyday RP, and that is less than ideal.

So far, Zandalar Tribe has very nice RP community and I would love to see us being coordinated and united on most of the plots we’re going through, to avoid confusion.

Thanks for reading.

41

Perhaps we shouldn’t discuss these particular cases in detail under this topic. Can I perhaps ask you about your thoughts on the draft concerning “Advisory Council of the Alliance”? Feedback is very much welcome.

My hopes are, and this is of course relevant to the issues you adressed as well, for the Council to establish a fundament from where much of the community’s roleplaying can be ratified and organized both in character and out of character. It would perhaps remedy the issues you have in “making sense” of the several ongoing storylines, and also help in putting them all in relation to one another. Records would also secure solid references of past occurances, and indeed establish history moving onwards.