“CoS gear becoming prominent in arena isn’t a red flag to us.”

PVP Arenas
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Then why did you disable PVE gear in tournament Ion?

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Because the Tournament servers are a special environment. They’re not meant to foster an RPG experience where the characters are the product of the players’ journeys and adventures in the game – they’re meant to foster a spectating eSport event where the focus is on the players’ gameplay and not the story background of the Night Elf Druid and the magical staff she wields.

It’s different. So the items get disabled for the tournaments, because they complicate the spectating part of the event needlessly, and the gameplay is arguably better served without them.
On Live the items are part of the game. Blizzard’s philosophy is that special rules and exceptions erode the cohesiveness and sense of connection between the various gameplay activities, and diminish the RPG nature of the game.

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So you are telling me that WoW Arena Tournament is not really WoW?

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DING DING DING DING

WE HAVE THE RIGHT answer RIGHT here.

Really talked yourself in the bag with that one lol.

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Yes. It is not. It is a special tournament server made to foster a spectating eSport event between pro-players in an Arena setting, and only that.
You do not have access to it as a normal player, and pro-players do not have access to it outside of tournament play, and it serves no purpose or relation to WoW beyond facilitating the PvP eSport events.
It is similar to the MDI server which also gives players access to special pre-made characters and gear with pre-chosen item level. That doesn’t reflect the Live experience – it’s just for show.

But that’s not the only factor that matters, that’s kind of what Ion said.
Blizzard tried to nullify the value of gear with Legion, and they felt that was a mistake, because it eroded the sense of playing an RPG.
Nullifying the value of gear may result in a more balanced, skill-based PvP environment, but what’s more important and what takes precedence is to ensure the sense of playing an RPG when you play WoW – also in PvP. So there’s arguably a sacrifice made in terms of balance in order to have that PRG experience, but seemingly one Blizzard thinks is worth it.

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So lemme just get this straight. You’re telling me, I’m watching somebody else playing a wannabe of my game, winning it and being declared the best player in my game? Okay.

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Ye, part of the game if - for example - caster trinkets equipped on meeles doing top 3 dps and hitting your enemies, in combination with other items, for a free instant passiv chaosbolt. If that’s the part of the game and if we defense it because of that, maybe thats the reason why this season is fuc*in dead.

Why am I answer on Jito, can someone shot me.

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Yeah. They’re not playing with their own characters on the tournament servers, so it’s not a true reflection of the Live game experience. It’s a show-match.

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By what metric is it dead? If I scroll through the leaderboards, then people have the same high ratings as always, and they’ve played hundreds or thousands of games each, which doesn’t really imply a lack of interest.
And I’d be surprised if we won’t see an influx of activity in the upcoming Season – everyone will want that new Essence for their collection, I think.

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No, you really talked yourself into a bag with that one.

You admit that PVE items make the gameplay arguably worse, quote on quote.

Explain to me what kind of developer worth his salt openly ruins gameplay in order to…What, preserve an RPG feeling (That arguably never existed, because PVE items have never been as dominant in PVP as they have been in BFA)? RPG feeling is part of the gameplay experience, and if you are forced to do content you dislike in a game you are supposedly free to choose your path with, it’s against RPG values.

You can pick up any past example. Shadowmourne. Glaives (not actually the best for pvp anyway unlike he claimed), fangs of the father, vial of shadows, etc. None of them have ever had as widespread impact as the current system has.

And you admit that it’s detrimental.

Ion looked like he was about to tear up anyway in the video because he 100% knows he wouldn’t be able to defend his points across anybody who actually played the game since the inception of the game. He could just admit he made a mistake but alas, we’ll have to wait for that like we had to wait for them to admit they messed up our classes too.

But again, as usual, I was right.

Case closed.

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Maybe look at Rankings, not Ratings.

Also not that high brain if you try to get a clue on the activity at the end of the season. We had like top 500 on 2.4 for an eternity.

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You make it sound as if it’s some cardinal sin I’ve admitted to.
I’m simply saying that PvP is a more balanced and more skill-based environment if you remove gear from the equation. That’s not a statement that’s foreign to anyone around here. I’m sure we can all agree on that.

:roll_eyes:

Your angle on this is confusing. I have simply explained the angle that Blizzard are coming from – not from a perspective of being right or wrong, because you’re not getting anything out of your sense of righteousness anyway – but from a sense of understanding.

Do the Legion design and get skill-based, balanced PvP!
Blizzard won’t do it, because it erodes the sense of playing an RPG, which they think is more important to WoW.
Side-effect of stuffing PvE gear into PvP in order to secure the sense of playing an RPG? It becomes less balanced and less skill-based. Is that okay? To Blizzard it is, therefore they go with it.
Wherever you want to be right in that scenario is all up to you. If it makes you feel better, go for it I guess. :yum:

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Why? What difference does it make to your gameplay experience if a bunch of 900 rated newbie scrubs choose to play Arena or not? You’re not getting matched with them anyway. All that should matter to you is that your fellow, high-rated veteran PvPers are still doing PvP. And looking at the leaderboards, they don’t seem all gone.

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Yes it is because it’s a paradox.

You have argued that you want the gameplay of this game to be optimal.

But then in the next post you say actually the very thing you defend is detrimental to gameplay.

You really didn’t think this one through did you.

“To improve gameplay, we must ruin gameplay”.

:thinking:

It’s not even an argument. You just proved that you actually just shill for Blizzard because you contradicted yourself so openly.

It’s very simple. I was right.

Remember when we had those arguments about class design in legion & bfa? Turns out I was right, they admit pruning too much and are apologizing for it. They admit classes have become hollow in wake of specs.

Lo and behold, I was right.

And I will 100% be right when pvp vendors and old conq/honor system make a return in some shape or form, just like I was right about Legion’s developer view on world pvp being made more balanced as their “we want things to be crazy” blew on their face.

What my point is, Jito?

My point is that in hindsight, my views are proven right.

I was right, you were wrong.

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Guys just ignore jito pls

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Making PvE gear bis in PvP has nothing to do with RPG aspect of the game that is actually non existing. RPG aspects were arrows, class quests, having to eat and drink, professions being important, atunments. Current WoW is action-mount and transmog collecting game. It’s neither MMO as social aspect is barely existing and MMO is based on it and neither RPG. Arena was introduced in TBC and was very successful as long as PvE gear wasn’t part of it. PvE gear was the main reason PvP players left in S11 when DS was released. After that lesson Blizzard made PvE gear not-viable for high end PvP. This worked great in MoP when they finally fixed class designes in S14. WoD gearing wasn’t bad. In WoD’s case there were two other problems - class design and Ashran giving too much while it was boring. Blizzard tend to make the same mistakes twice.

Why people were asking for change in Legion was that they wanted to have influence on their stats not to use broken PvE gear.

In my oppinion they should try make PvP fun for PvP players and Raids for Raiders. They focus too much on scalings, catchups etc. instead of dedicated audience. Who cares if raider will queue once a month and then he demands to be competitive with players that play PvP everyday. He should have disadvantage but the he has advantage over PvP players in PvE. Simple as that.

Player that kills raid bosses should be better at raid bosses because he practiced that aspect of the game. End of story.

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I have? Where?

My opinion on PvP design and philosophy is that WoW should aim to be one cohesive game with a seamless transition between PvE and PvP, have low barriers to entry, high emphasis on character and gear progression, and a focus on fun and fantasy over skill and balance.

That’s my personal take. My selfish interests don’t align with the skill-based eSport desire.

I don’t want the game to be optimal, I want it to be fun. Crazy PvE gear in PvP? I’m on-board with that. I recognize that it doesn’t make the game more skill-based or eSport-oriented, but as said, then that’s not of any real importance to me personally.

I’m not sure how this is a matter of right or wrong. It’s more a matter of agree or disagree.

If Blizzard does something you don’t like, then they are wrong, because your opinion is right.
If they say they made a mistake on something you also consider to be a mistake, then you were right.
So you’re always right, because you view everything from the perspective that your point of view is the correct one, so you’re always right and anyone who isn’t aligned with you is wrong. Silly, but whatever, what works for you. :roll_eyes:

Regardless, I don’t personally agree with Blizzard’s new philosophy on class design.
For one, I value spec fantasy over class fantasy – something I seemingly disagree with Blizzard on.
Blizzard seems to see value in providing players with more buttons, because they believe more is actually better. I don’t really agree with that either.
I don’t really think that means I’m wrong. It just means I disagree with Blizzard on these points.

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I’m glad you’re not a game dev as WoW would be dead already because:

-your gear “design” we can experience today and barely anyone is playing this game
-making it “easy to enter” killed the game and made us burn out of content for the third expansion in a row
-the game with your “design” is not fun. People who play mostly PvP don’t play it and raiders play it once a month anyway. So with your “take” noone plays PvP.

How can anyone defend Blizzard in this miserable spot they are at right now when 14 y.o. game is beating their new and “polished” version of it. The reason Classic is successful is RPG aspect of the game but it doesn’t mean that axe from PvE being the best in PvP is good for the game. As TBC, Wrath and even Cata have shown us competitive PvP (not necessarily esport take) can co-exist and work with RPG aspect of the game.

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But I just said what I wanted based on what’s enjoyable and fun to me. It’s my selfish wish-list if you will. I’m not the spokesperson of anyone except myself.
If it’s a marginal opinion to want the things I want, then so be it.
I say what I want, you say what you want, and then Blizzard decides what they want the game to be.

Not sure I understand those examples. All those expansions had high prevelance of PvE gear in PvP. Deathbringer’s Will, Vial of Shadows, Void Stone. Kind of the same, right?

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Yes but parts when PvE gear was better for PvP was always a short period of expansion and ususally at the end of it. For bigger part of every of these expansions going resilience was the way to go and that’s the time people enjoyed PvP the most. If you ask TBC players S3 was the best if you ask Wrath players they say S7 and Cata players say S10. These are seasons when people didn’t use PvE gear yet. As you can see there is a pattern.