Well as I said I thought in the past (WoD and before) RoS made it non crit. But Archi said it wasn’t the case in BfA so I’ve got no idea about what could make it non crit. Aside from a copy/reflect of the damage on a secondary target that can’t be a crit.
I’ve NEVER seen CB NOT crit ever since they changed it. Bloodlocks Details is interesting, though. But going after MSBT which always showed reliable animations regarding this (in line with what the combat log shows), it never showed me a non crit CB. Haven’t seen it once and tried it with every mechanic that came to my mind, even in PvE. It always critically strikes, and as of now seems to even ignore some mechanics and just straight up bypasses them.
Reminds me how it was back when CB was different and no one believed me that Chaos Bolt can pierce through Cloak of Shadows, Deterrence (Oh boy…now they have turtle shell, I kinda miss Deterrence), Dispersion etc. And no, it never pierced through Bubble or Ice Block, not even in WotLK beta.
My thoughts are exactly what you describe so I’d be very interested if Whisperer could back up his words with evidence during an argument over Warlocks for once and provide us plebs with a way to make Chaos Bolt not crit on the actual in game log reliably.
I didn’t know about Deterrence. I knew about Cloak because it was Chaos Damage in the past, back when Chaos damage was all schools including physical, then it went to Shadow damage and was thus immuned by Cloak and AMS and with BfA it went back to Chaos but they changed Chaos so it doesn’t include physical anymore which is why Cloak immunes it.
FYI I just bolted into RoS and it did crit.
Prune 90% of my tool kit, what kit lol if you die to a rogue solo you really need to uninstall - Or do i need to remind you how in 3 vs 3 it was mage, lock, healer which clean sweeped 9-0 in the last tourney hm? (its like casters are op OR something ![:rofl:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
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rogue has some CC sure but is it enough to call it decent utility when you lack damage. Nope. Outside of Vendetta rogue will never solo you -ever- mean while you have things like warlocks where its like “i am sitting mid, you leave pillar i thanos snap you. You LOS me I Infernal, havoc, coil, fear thanos snap you.”
Warlock has an answer to everything in current game whether you like it or not.
Yeah, I actually still have the video up on my Youtube account, one of the first I specifically recorded just to prove a point in the forums, haha.
Not really. You mean Rogues have that, then yes.
Also let me give you a reminder of our actual toolkit:
Warlocks are strong, NO ONE IS DENYING THAT. But in terms of what the class has lost it’s almost unbeaten by anything else, especially considering its 3 specs, not only destro. And that’s probably why everyone hates so much on us these days, the class has been dumbed down too much and is too easy to be successful with if you have the right mates.
But coming here, AS A ROGUE, trying to deny the statement that we lost almost our entire toolkit is borderline asinine and shows that you’re quite biased yourself. We are a dumb turret EXACTLY BECAUSE we lost our toolkit.
Trust me when I say it is a LOT more frustrating as a long time lock player to see what your class has turned into and what it was before. Be happy that Rogue is very stable in its core kit and utility…
But okay, I’d really love to hear how you’d all like it if we actually had baseline 70% cone slow on a 15s CD, AoE fear on a basically 10s CD when melees train you, Circle, Conflag slow, Backlash, INSTANT Shadowfury on a 20s CD baseline back. Yes, I’m all for it. I doubt you are…
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I think I can point towards at least 40+ posts in this thread about someone denying it.
Yes because you read/ interpret into it the way you like to see it.
Time and time again I and others try to explain mechanical differences and you all immediately ignore that and counter the valid arguements with the current balancing issues of the class.
It’s not always about that. And again, an additional issue I personally have is that people always forget that there are two evils in this discussion about “stupid” and OP classes, and one of those is far worse than the other.
Warlocks are currently seen as an unstoppable force that cannot ever be dealt with, when in reality there were countless metas and seasons with classes that couldn’t even be countered at all. Warlock still has to hardcast. Hardcasting is the simplest form to disrupt in this game there is.
Whenever it’s a melee or ranged with 0 casttime that is the same way as we are now, this is far worse because there are less game mechanics that allow direct counterplay.
I mean you think that it doesn’t matter that we get disrupted way more 90% of the time compared to when we throw those killer bolts, but ever since the ridiculous pruning from Legion I haven’t really been able to play with a melee alongside myself. It’s just not viable, you gimp yourself more than anything else.
That’s what I alluded to in a point above, warlock is strong but isn’t standalone. His strength gets amplified to extremes when paired with another ranged that has the same threats, but you fail miserably with anything else most of the time.
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That would be jumping to conclusions.
A lot of these threads are someone saying something about warlocks, and then it’s just followed up by “no”, “you don’t grasp warlock”, “they played it wrong” or whatever.
You’ve basically summed up the actual reason why lock is out of control. Hardcasting. You must put in almost all of your resources to keep the lock in check, but if you bring in a second source that requires an equal amount of disruption, then you’re automatically in a lose/lose situation.
This is what gives rise to the current problem. Hardcasts are too effective to ignore.
Don’t even get me started on the catastrophy that is Hpriest+destro in 2s.
And that’s where you’re wrong because you assume every single cast cannot be ignored. Exactly that is your and other’s problem. Especially in the case of warlocks. The only ever dangerous Chaos Bolts require a lot of setup and you only have a 10s period AT MAX where you’re really dangerous. And that every 3 minutes.
For the whole rest of the game, even if you can totally freecast you’re still not doing any more DPS/ meaningful damage than any other class with the same uptime. It often is even less raw damage.
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The prune caused single abilities to become bloated with uncontrollable damage.
Case and point: Chaos bolt, Greater pyro, vendetta, wake of ashes, tyrant, etc.
When classes have a larger base of damage sources, we don’t need to have one trick ponies like ret wings and lock chaos bolts. Burst is lower, but pressure is higher.
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Alright, let’s look at CB for a few moments then.
The base version of Chaos Bolt does around 40k-45k damage. It is possible to get 2 of these off in the span of 2-3 seconds.
If I let these 2 casts get off, the lock will burst for 30k dps without a single CD popped.
You can setup a lot of things if you take somebody down to 150k- from full that fast.
Not a lot of classes can force CDs or make a kill without popping their own CDs, but lock is one of them.
Yeah, that’s considering the pure freecast scenario. Which never happens in arena, at least not 100% of the time. And even then, in the span of 3 seconds, taking 80k-100k damage is NOTHING for any healer to heal np.
Now you have to factor in that this just doesn’t happen all the time and compare it to other classes’ constant pressure that cannot be avoided and boom, you’re on the same level or above in pressure alone.
The usual scenario mostly goes that in order to do as much damage, the warlock has to spend 5-10s or more, during which time he actually doesn’t do anything other than CC or just nothing due to constant juking or irrelevant filler spells. All the while his enemies still pump damage into him or a teammate.
See the arguement? Again, even my scenario is just a description and not actual reality, I also don’t blindly assume 100% uptime for others.
But I hope I can make it clear to you the problem with having to hardcast in order to do ANYTHING, vs classes that just have everything instant.
Instants > hard casts. At all times. Always. This is just game logic and how the game mechanics work.
Another thing that greatly illustrates this issue is the problem of agency and reactions. PvP is ALL about reacting to the environment and your opponents in it.
Am I able to do ANYTHING reactively with the gimped version of Shadowfury which has a baseline casttime of 1.5s? A small area of effect stun with a radius of 8 yd, that has to be cast? I can only be proactive with this CC ability, never reactive. And this is in every single possible scenario strictly worse than if it were instant.
But people like to just ignore these facts whenever it comes to the CC discussion aswell. Yes, warlocks have access to all 3 DRs, but no single DR is as strong as the same CC on any other spec due to drawbacks.
The only stun that’s in an unfair category is the infernal stun, since it doesn’t have any DR and is instant.
But for the others… root being on the same spell that is the most important spell to start combat and basically is a rotational priority ability kept on CD, Mortal Coil with its measly 25yd range and horrify effect that more often than not fails in its use to go for a kill due to the target getting perfectly feared around the pillar .2s before the CB cast finishes, and lastly Fear, which can be argued about.
Just keep in mind that Fear already has been nerfed from 8s to 6s, which isn’t true for Polymorph.
I’m not sure why you would mention Vendetta and Tyrant in your list as they are burst cooldowns on a long CD.
Like, CB abd GP are actual problems of this game. Vendetta ? It’s 20% more damage on one target with 2mins CD. Wings are 20% on everyone for a longer duration. Avatar is 20% on everyone and removes snares and stuff. Hell even sv Hunter burst however it’s called is a similar damage increase with a shorter cooldown and on all targets.
Tyrant is a little more dumb imo as it’s an IA but it’s still a burst CD which you can line, cc and interrupt, and then its only remaining strenght is a 15% buff to demon damage while it lasts.
So, I don’t get why these two CDs are listed alongside spells like CB and GP and with what I said about their strengths compared to other burst cds I don’t understand why they’re mentionned at all. They are clearly not the strongest burst cooldowns, very far from it. And anyways it’s quite normal that bursts CDs are more than a sad 5% damage increase don’t you think ?
Fear doesn’t heal the target back to full, doesn’t clear DoTs and doesn’t instantly break on damage which means you can use it for pure CC on a relatively clear target but also to keep a healer low for a bit while your teammate gathers the damage to finish him off, you can use it to cancel casts like GP without immediately removing your entire pressure on the Mage that you’re trying to kill because you don’t cleanse and heal him, you can use it to disrupt the melee you’re trying to kill when he tries to set up a go without cancelling what you yourself set up on him nd without healing him… I damn well expect that spell not to last as long as Poly. It’s not the same spell, has advantages and disadvantages compared to Poly and as it is most of the differences between the two are advantages in favor of Fear which is why a new disadvantage to Fear was introduced : a lower duration.
Because burst cooldowns with long CD’s existed back in the day- Including Vendetta.
But you were still not able to burst someone in 1 stun, back in MoP or WoD. This is a phenomenon of Legion -> BFA.
Burst cooldowns are supposed to increase your damage, yes- But I believe the damage increase shouldn’t be as drastic as it is these days. There should be more options than just “Lol lmao kite/use a huge defensive or two to counter 1 ability”, you should be able to play smart around it.
Doesn’t matter honestly what % you add to how much damage it increases, really. You also need to take into account general class defenses, self heals and health pools. If all of those are higher, then the value of burst cooldowns is reduced as you can mitigate some of that with those.
For example, back in WoD as ele shaman you didn’t necessarily need to trade shamanistic rage (basically similar to astral shift, but it also reduced mana costs), if you were able to root or slow your opponent and then drop a healing stream/healing tide totem and heal yourself. That’s gone, can’t do that anymore.
I could pick a million more examples but prune has 2 problems: The lack of utility, self healing and other tools have caused damage to become more and more important in the game, which means that damage boost cooldowns like vendetta and wings deal stupid amounts of damage to which you have very little reaction time/outplay potential for. This goes for CB/other abilities I mentioned too.
Yes, you can do all the things (lining, cc, interrupt) with other abilities too (CB, wake of ashes), but alas there are moments where you simply can’t, and you get punished far more harshly for it proportionally than you did back in the day.
To put it plainly, the game is more unforgiving to you than probably before- Except that while previously you got punished for your mistakes still, if you were smart, you had several tools to counter those options. Now those options are gone, and literally the only way to deal with things like incarnation and infernal is to run.
How engaging & meaningful pvp is that you run around a pillar for solid 20+ seconds lol?
The problem is not CB, which deals too little damage, the problem is the CDs associated with CB, and specifically, infernal: right now, infernal triggers:
- Extra damage from the infernal’s attacks.
- Extra soul shard generation
- Extra damage: azerite trait.
- Extra damage: grim of supremacy.
it’s simply too powerful of a cooldown, specially when overlapped with the extra 30% damage of dark soul. CB damage needs to be streamlined: make it higher outside infernal, make it lower during infernal.
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This is very right.
100% Agree.
Instead of judging situation by “what number did appear”… we should judge situation of “how did that number appear”.
And I believe if somebody does understand how Warlock work, then they cannot claim that there is no outplay for it or that it’s too difficult.
Stuff like “But fear…” or “But Coil” also doesn’t make much sense as initial chaos bolts might be secured indeed with very few seconds of reaction time, but those don’t hurt (and there are plenty class that deal more damage than that and doesnt need to secure it anyhow), so the only time MC messes you up is when you’re in open long enough for him to build up damage, but at that point there was plenty of time to react and not be in open to eat coil.
Well I don’t know, I think it was stuff like RoS
https://scontent-prg1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/64268908_2054521771521053_9139787936005357568_n.png?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-prg1-1.xx&oh=b975d0fbc43ce7e813f81ea8c967e8b4&oe=5D8BD959
How can my identity be same? Thorough years, some attributes of my identity changed, therefore you’re again inconsistent with yourself.
I’m same person as I was when I was 5 years old. And I will be same person if I get shot in leg.
And what I called you stupid for is, saying that its yours philopshical definition and basically claiming I am wrong, because it contradicts your philosophy. That’s non-sequitur. It contradicting you, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Especially when even you are contradicting yourself, so you shouldn’t be really taken as some arbiter of definitions and philosophy.
You’re not even consistent in your own definition of the word “same”.
As apparently I am not same person (according to you) as I was in 5yo, but I have same identity. And when you claim that change of attribute means it’s no longer same then it’s contradicting having the same identity
I know what reductio ad absurdum is, don’t worry. It’s used to show that something doesn’t work. You applied possibly reductio ad absurdum to show that the comparison doesn’t work, but you proved yourself wrong by being able to compare it.