you conflate two things together
being “fun” and being “broken”
nobody here claims Destro Warlock is fun if I recall correctly
but using argument “it’s not fun” in discussion whether it’s broken or not doesn’t make any sense
most Warlocks hate current Warlock state, Affli is boring and bad, Destro is boring and sad, Demo is boring sad and bad
I said it before, when I was commenting thoughtfully on Warlock design, but if a class is supposed to be immobile, then it makes zero sense of being based around strong cooldowns. Because it leads necessarily to what’s happening now, you just have to LOS and that’s unfun for both parties, but unfun != broken.
I’d like to think that Vendetta is in there, but its not. Mostly cause you fail to see vendetta being the equivalent of using Wings, avatar, infernal, combustion, arcane power (you get the point.) more so than it being a on-use ability such as Wake of ashes or any other core damage abilities - let alone failing to mention there is huge counter play to Vendetta, such as greater fade, bop, block, bear (most classes have an answer for this abilitiy.)
Anything which gives you vast amounts of armor or 100% dodge/parry or immunities. If you install PVP Tooltips you’d also see that Vendetta doesn’t have its full effectiveness whereas I’m fairly certain Wings still does in arena conditions (which is insane to see that a class with such utility is allowed to keep 100% damage).
You look at the ladder and tell me again that rogue is a case and point of abilities doing bloated damage where envenom is lucky to crit for more than 35k where as TV easily does 75 -90k or chaosbolts 100k+ or TOD 70k+. Going off actual competitive play rogue isn’t exactly meta at the moment at all. Even the rogue blizzcon players I’m sure i’ve heard them say their comp is just not meta at the moment, and at that level of play meta makes the difference.
Its viable but its definitley not the same impact as it should have in my opinion. Having played as and very much so against the class its not exactly urhm up to parr with expectations for sure. your playing a glass cannon but every other class has so much mitgiation and answers you at the end of the day just become a CC bot with joke worthy damage when compared alongside other melees and end up playing the fatigue/dampening game (which even then isnt as much as it should be in your favour). As the saying goes, you should never get soloed by a rogue.
Not taking offense to it but theres alot of other abilities which have been missed out here too if we’re being properly picky - Sniper shot, aimed shot, lightning lasso, Templars Verdict, starsurge, lightning tempest is it called - These are all abilities which require literally almost no wind up or prior warning for the damage output on them to increase drastically or do hp% damage which is always fun btw.
What number appeared and how and why did it appear.
Great Pyroblast just hit me for 80k with a 4.5 sec cast time. Alright.
Took 2 Chaos Bolt dealing 70k each with a total 2 sec cast time. Not so alright.
80k instant Templar’s Verdict? Definitely not alright.
Ele sham just RNG’d 3 Earth Shocks and deleted someone faster than they could say Templar’s Verdict. Wonderous counterplay.
In my experience broken things aren’t generally fun- Save for (maybe) the players who play the (insert class here), and even then only for some of them.
Of course it makes all kinds of sense. If something is not fun & engaging, chances are that it’s a frustrating mechanic that should rather be worked on rather than left as “Lmao deal with it”.
More often than not this is the case though. Unfun in warlocks case is broken- Just like it is in the case of UH DK pressure or mage Greater pyro or any (insert dumbo 1 trick pony mechanic here).
No I don’t, I actually said in a later post that I put most significant burst cooldowns there- I just didn’t happen to list all of them, but my point is the same.
Well you could say that for every ability, as I said. Most of the things you mention work just well on the other culprit abilities too. That was never my argument.
My argument was that in the past, when sustained damage was overall higher, but burst was then lower, you weren’t punished by being hit by a single ability or cc chain as significantly as you are now.
Now you could make an argument and claim that this is good and promotes pre-emptime gameplay and skillful counters- Only that, it doesn’t, since classes have lost a lot of their utility, self healing and other tools that allowed them multiple ways to deal with those abilities. Now, there’s only few of them per class, and several of them lackluster or simply not enough.
On the other hand, rogues have no clear weaknesses as they have the most unpruned and complete kit of all classes- Hence, regardless of season, even the ones that are dominated by pressure damage classes like DK or burst classes like warlocks, rogues still thrive and do just fine simply because they have what other classes don’t: Utility, self healing and hard CC.
ANd yet, people do get soloed by them. I’m not making the case whether that’s because the players are bad or not, I’m making the case that this wasn’t the case in the past- Regardless of the class you played. During MoP & WoD you wouldn’t die in a single CC chain or drop from 100 to 0 under 2 seconds unless in VERY specific situations- Not so much in Legion/BFA.
I didn’t see anybody discussing effort. I see only complaining about number and cast times (another number).
And no, it’s not enough to judge effort, you have to also take into account the counterability. It’s very high effort to burn enemy mana with talented imprison, but it’s also pretty much uncounterable. It’s low effort to click Chaos Bolt, but it’s easily counterable.
Well, I’d compare Warlock and Ele Sham when Ele sham starts to have casted Earth Shock.
We’re talking about broken things, not fun things.
If you say that generally broken things aren’t fun and that Warlock is unfun, the you literally didn’t contribute anything. Broken things => unfun doesn’t mean that unfun => broken.
Therefore AGAIN, saying it’s unfun is simply irrelevant to this topic.
Most of proposed sollutions were prunning Warlock. That doesn’t make anything more fun. The playstyle would stay the same, only Warlock would be unviable.
It’s never the case. Something can be unfun & broken, but that doesn’t mean unfun = broken. There is no implication of it.
Well you didn’t present any reasoning whatsoever for this.
Your best argument for why warlock is broken is because it’s not fun, which is idiotic reasoning.
Point of “RAA” is to show something doesn’t work (is absurd). You tried to use it on absurd scenario, but in the absurd scenario, it still worked. Therefore you failed your argument.
Point of RAA at that point was to use absurd scenario that’d show you can’t compare it. Which you didn’t. You chose absurd scenario and you were still able to compare it.
My proposition would be to unprune warlocks, such as returning things like summoning circle, curses and better self healing baseline, and shift a good bit of damage from chaos bolt back to incinerate and conflag and immolate. CB can and should still hit harder than those abilities, but not as hard as it does now.
Ok prove it. I gave plenty of examples earlier of broken things that are also unfun to play against as they offer very limited amount of meaningful counterplay afainst them.
I don’t know why are you disagreei g with me even. We seem to principally agree that warlock is only viable because of 1 ability and a cooldown, and I don’t think you enjoy that either. But that viability is also very frustrating to other players, regardless of it making the class stay afloat, because there’s very little counterplay you can do, because even after you stop all the bolts you can, that 1 bolt can still burst you down so quickly that you just flop over and die.
It’s unfun and broken. More often than not, again, these things correlate.
You seem to be taking this reslly personally as if I was blaming the warlocks for the state of the meta and how dead the game is. I am not. I blame Blizzard.
Unfun mechanics and abilities have almost universally been broken, regardless of xpac we are in.
That does make sense, but it’s something Blizz would consider overhaul and they’re not going to do that.
It is and you didn’t explain it, you just dismissed it with “mostly broken=>unfun” which works only one way, even if all the time something broken would be unfun, saying it is unfun therefore broken isn’t actually supported by the previous statement.
(if Husky => Dog, it is still not enough to say “This is Dog… therefore it is husky”. It works only one way, same way your "if something is broken it is mostly unfun, works only one way, therefore saying Warlock is unfun isn’t saying anything about whether they’re broken or not).
You made the original claim that unfun = broken. I just doubt it.
I don’t bear burden of proof.
As for your “plenty of examples” I can give you plenty of examples of different huskys… and all of them would be dogs… but that doesn’t mean every dog is husky (dog=husky).
Yes we agree with the off topic you brought here. AKA we agree it’s not fun.
But the topic asks whether it’s broken.
And you made bunch of unsupported claims which I think are untrue (like unfun = broken). // … Actually now I thought of great counter-example which proves you wrong - Affli is unfun but it is not broken.
That’s why I did say 3 seconds even though in reality it’s less, exactly because of
Which in my opinion is looking at one side and ignoring others. If he wants to use unrealistic numbers with no traits and no haste? Fine.
But he shouldn’t after that compare it to Warlock with Haste and talents and traits. That isn’t fair.
That’s why I did correct his number (2 -> 3) to be number of baseline cast.
It’s idiotic to compare two numbers but for one apply haste and for other not. That’s biased.
Hence the “more often than not”, I never claimed that it is an absolute. I do however make the assumption that the correlation between unfun and broken is at the very least positive, considering all the examples I gave about the individual spells and abilities.
If you read my post I didn’t, again, claim it an avsolute, so I don’t know what are you disagreeing with me about?
The dog example is off already because I never made the argument that because something is unfun = broken always. Frost mage vs warrior for example is very unfun encounter but is it broken? No.
More accurate way of putting it would be that not all unfun abilities are broken, but most broken abilities/mechanics -are- unfun.
Your disagreement with me is about whether you categorize CB as a broken or an unfun ability. I personally put it as broken due to the fact that while yes, you can counterplay around it, it is way too rewarding to get it off and it can kill people in unavoidable micro cc.
If you read my posts rather than jump on the moment I point out something that I think is wrong regarding the class you play, you’d noticed I never made the claim you propose and this all could have been avoided.
Well I mean s15 lasted for a really long time (+1,5 years?) So you could almost call it its own expansion by that right alone, but even if you decide to be cynical about the previous patches, the oneshotting disappeared as the expansion progressed. That didn’t happen with legion, and as BFA is just downgraded Legion, it is not a hard connection to make.
Tbh, I don’t know what you are on about. One-shotting people has existed since WotLK. You could also one-shot people throughout the whole of Cataclysm, and some classes could also do that throughout the whole MoP expansion. Some examples;
Cataclysm S9 + S10 you could get one-shotted by Rets, Arms Warriors, Frost Mages.
Cataclysm S11 was a clown fiesta with overpowered PvE gear.
MoP S12 was a clown fiesta with Frost Mages, Warriors, BM Hunters and Demo Locks one-shotting everything in their path.
MoP S13 and on was very bursty and Enhance could win the game by popping Ascendance and literally tunnel vision other players through Guardian Spirit + their personal defensive arsenal.
Actually all the way from Vanilla- Put generally speaking, said one-shot mechanics have been either very individual cases or they’ve been tweaked the longer the expansion has gone on.
None of that happened with Legion nor BFA (so far).
Also I don’t remember one shots being a thing in MoP (Save for taste for blood) and in Cata with dragonwrath.
Your memory doesn’t serve you right then. You can watch vids of S12.
Did you play during Season 10 and 11? Especially the latter was literally all about one-shotting for most comps. RMP? Vanguards Cleave? Thug? Fire MLS with Fire Mages critting for 50k +? Triple dps comps?
I don’t know what are you trying to argue? S15 was by far the best season for pvp this game has ever had- Everything before that had it’s problems, which, again, were worked out.
Same thing didn’t happen with Legion- And hasn’t happened with BFA (So far), so I don’t know is your argument that “just wait and see” or “hope for the best” or that the current state of the pvp is better/same as it was back in the day?
I didn’t really play almost any arena at all during Cataclysm- I mostly enjoyed doing battlegrounds and occasionally arena, and I never encountered the problems you describe. I’m not going to however deny that the PVE gear from dragonsoul for example wasn’t a problem, but that’s a separate issue with gearing, which has nothing to do with abilities.
I don’t remember any fundamentally broken abilities from the day- More importantly, almost every class had something to counter said broken abilities- Or to mitigate them. Nowadays? Those toolkits have been dumbed down or just removed entirely.
No. I do not complain about your usage of “mostly” I complain about your statements being logically incoherent.
For which I showed you example with dogs to illustrate. Which you succesfuly ignored.
I don’t disagree. I just point your logic (or lack of) doesn’t work.
Again, I don’t mind usage of “always” I mind that you’re explaining broken => unfun but you’re claming broken = unfun as conclusion. Which does not work.
Sure, but then saying Warlock is unfun is completely worthless, because we don’t know whether it is unfun because it’s broken or because some other thing.
You don’t understand logic here.
if you actually made case that most unfun things are broken, then yes, it makes sense to mention it in this topic that Warlock is unfun
but if you’re saying most broken things are unfun, then no, it does not make sense to mention it in this topic that Warlock is unfun
By this logic, Ressurection is broken too. Because it fits same criteria you mention here. while yes, you can counterplay around it, it is way too rewarding to get it off
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