Destro Locks are disgustingly broken

honestly cnnot believe people have not realised trying to talk to whisperer is a complete waste of time.

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NO I didn’t. You’re the one being ignorant here- As you put words into my mouth I never said in the first place. I’m not calling you out on it because quite frankly I don’t care if people enter a conversation on this forum with a loaded gun (they do), so I try to be better.

Well seeing as you keep saying “your logic doesn’t work” but never actually give any credible arguments to point out why doesn’t it work I suppose we’re at an impasse because you can’t form a coherent credible argument for your case.

I presented my point, corrected you on why the example you expressed is inaccurate- The rest is up to you.

???

It seems very logical to me. If something is broken, the correlation that it’s probably also unfun is probably very high. That’s a claim. From that you can naturally derive that probably, broken abilities are often the rootcause for unfun gameplay- Which seems to hold water as well (though not always, as unfun gameplay can be derived from other cases as well, such as too wide homogenization across classes or simplicity of classes or pace of the gameplay or gearing or w/e else). The existance of these other factors doesn’t however disvalue or disprove the existance of the former so again, what are you disagreeing with me about?

I’m saying Warlock is broken- From that, I can derive that warlock is probably not very fun to play/play against either, which I can then start working around for a solution. Very simple.

I think that if we learn what makes the classes fun we can better and more accurately design enjoyable gameplay- As true balance is always impossible to achieve unless we homogenize all the classes, so I see I can get a lot more utility from making classes fun, as it will also allowe their effective balancing in the long run.

You disagreeing with me doesn’t mean I don’t understand logic. That’s a fallacy right there.

You have it upside down. I can derive the former from the latter. You have it the other way around.

Resurrection cancels in combat, resurrection is a 10 second cast, so I don’t know how do you put up these arguments but you really want to work on making accurate examples.

Greater Pyro would be closer since the damage the two abilities is quite close (with Greater pyro probable averageing higher, but CB having a higher variance), only that CB’s cast time can be significantly reduced, whereas GP’s can’t be- Yet they both are broken and (unsurprisingly) not very fun abilities to play against.

If you want to lean back in the armchair and go for logical arguments then you need to realize that the context decides the environment, not you (nor me) so your entire argument so far has boiled down to

“don’t say this”
“your point doesn’t matter”

To which I say, ok? Like just don’t read or respond to them if you disagree/don’t like them lmao.

No I don’t. I am careful with things I say and I made this bold and paid a lot of attention to get it correctly.

If most unfun things are broken, it makes sense to mention in topic whether warlock is broken or not that warlock is unfun.

If most broken things are unfun, it DOES NOT MAKE ANY LOGICAL sense to mention in this topic whether warlock is broken or not that warlock is unfun.

You simply don’t understand logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_consequence

If A => B then it makes sense to mention that a thing is A (because that implies B) but it doesn’t make sense to mention that a thing is B (because it doesn’t imply A)
If most broken things (A) are unfun (=>B) then it doesn’t make sense to mention Warlock is unfun (B) because it doesn’t imply that it is broken.

Correlations are worthless and have no value whatsoever. Causalities does. You claimed a causality and made implication and derived claim from that, which is illogical conclusion.

Logic isn’t subjective.

Well then you’re biased, because for Chaos Bolt, it was enough for you that it is rewarding and it doesn’t matter if it’s counterable, because all that matters is that it is rewarding too much. But for Ressurection… suddenly you have compeltely different metric and HOW you can counter it suddenly matters.

Well if you’re contributing to debate about global warming with “I think orange is vegetable” then your point doesn’t matter. I didn’t express disagreement, I just said that you didn’t say anything to the topic.

Topic is whether Warlock is broken or not. You came here, claimed it’s unfun and derived from it that it’s likely broken because of it, but conclusion you made is completely illogical for reasons I just explained.

That you are wrong when you say

and

because one-shots have been a thing in this game almost since forever, from much older times.

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could you elaborate on what you mean by one shots? because aside from ret paladins nothing currently “one shots” you, however there’s lots of classes that can do lethal dmg in a stunlock or with a combo.

Fire Mage is capable of 100-0 in under 2 seconds.

Well, onshotting means you 100-0 someone with one spell and no class can do that currently.

You may die to some classes or speccs withing seconds but they usually use more than one dmg ability in order to do that.

Well clearly not.

I’ve made a claim- Though I’m flattered to know that you think I’m an authority on the matter (since you emphasize that one must mention their standing, and I have mentioned mine).

Warlock is broken in my view. Warlock also seems unfun as a result of this- As too much emphasize is put on 1 ability whereas Warlock could have a lot more defining traits about it than just one ability. That way, also, the moment CB is nerfed they won’t instantly disappear from the ladder as they got other things to compensate for them (see Shadow priests, whose survivability was changed, but they are still viable, as their damage was brought up as well).

Why doesn’t it make any sense to mention it? I mean, you clearly disagree with the notion, so obviously it is up for debate? Rather than shoving your head down a hole and screaming “DON’T SPEAK ABOUT THIS HERE REEEEE” you could actually try and argue against my point- Whether you think it belongs into this topic or it doesn’t.

You’re not the gatekeeper of this thread and if you can’t argue against me just don’t lol, nobody’s gonna care that you lose face because you can’t win an argument you started in a fit of rage against a point I never made?

Let me ask you it this way since you are for some reason so hung up on this path: Is your issue with me breaking down and analyzing and deriving why do I think Destro warlocks are broken (and as a consequence, unfun) because the topics name is " [Destro Locks are disgustingly broken] ", or with the fact that you can’t seem to provide a logical argument- Since again, you don’t seem to disagree with me.

You do realize that Causality is derived from correlation? Causality is just 100% correlation, whereas positive correlation is anything between 0 and 1 with high correlation being anywhere past 0,5.

Correlations absolutely are worthwhile and if you find a correlation (and a strong one) you can often fix the issue effectively by affecting the other- As I said in the beginning, I think Warlocks are broken and unfun and are bad for the overall game as it is at the moment, which could be remedied by unpruning them or at the very least shifting damage back to their other abilities away from CB, so it wouldn’t be as punishing as it is now.

It seems to me that you’re just speaking out loud things you don’t ever understand in a panic fit so you wouldn’t, again, lose face. But this only works if your opponent doesn’t actually know the meanings of terms (or their implications), which, I fortunately do.

I never claimed it was, though you could make a perfectly viable philosophical argument for it, but since that isn’t really the point of this argument I won’t step to it.

However since I derive an outcome from an another phenomenon that’s logical and my interpretation of it may or may not be false but since you’re not the authority on the matter and can’t seem to provide (Again) an argument against it, I’m not very keen on believing you.

All of us are biased for something so that’s another oxymoron, why would I believe in my own reasonings if I wasn’t biased towards them?

More importantly, your comparison is really bad because as I said, it’s not accurate since the two abilities don’t have even relatively the same goals nor purposes, not to mention mechanics.

CB is designed to deal damage, resurrection is dealt to resurrect people
CB and resurrection both have cast times.
CB and resurrection, and really most abilities are rewarding when you get them off (duh).
CB doesn’t cancel in combat.
Both can be interrupted.

Your argument would work if it was even relatively as easy to get off a resurrection without penalty as it is with a chaos bolt- and I know that from an empiric standpoint alone, I will win that argument because the number of CB’s that caused the succesfull outcome (death of an opponent) vs the number of succesfull resurrections in arena games are skewed massively in favour for CB.

I use the same metric for all: The outcome and how much did it take to get there, and how large an impact does it have. And currently it’s not even an argument to make that CB hits way too hard for the lack of drawbacks and plenty of opportunities you can get it off- In the current state of the game.

The solution to this isn’t to flat out nerf CB as it will just delete the class from arena, but rather shift damage to other lock schools so that they aren’t completely handicapped when they can’t get a CB off. This will create more sustained damage and balance out the gameplay to be more satisfactory for every party involved.

You’re falling into the very common logical fallacy of “whataboutism” by conjuring up new inaccurate examples to try and shift the attention away from the argument- Which, doesn’t work.

I said to the topic that I think warlocks are broken. I also said that as a result playing against them/with them is probably unfun. Turns out I’m probably right on that as well. I then proposed fixes to benefit both parties (which do by the way contribute to the topic)- To which, you haven’t answered to other than “haha they won’t do these fixes” which is where your argument with me could have ended, but you for some bizarre reason dragged it out this long about a non-issue you don’t even disagree with me on.

OK I’m willing to admit that the “one shots being a thing” is inaccurate and I’ll instead use “One shots haven’t been this common/widespread” as they are now/in the last 2 expansions.

Yeah, getting a universal definition would help.

Pragmatically, the word is exactly as you said it: 1 spell, 1 dead.

I personally put anything that can kill you within the frame of a few seconds (2-4?) with you having very little if any counterplay potential against it under the category of “One shotting”.

Again, the greatest of exagerations.
First, it assumes a Greater is already flying so you didn’t account for 3-4s of that burst. Then, Greater Flying. Meteor. 1GCD, approx 35k in crit. 3 Fire Blasts, that won’t go over 15k in crit. And one Pyroblast for the second GCD which would be max 25k. For a grand total of… 105k (oh a bit more with the DoT true) + a Greater which never kills someone and leaves the Mage with no instant to keep the rampage going and so he has to cast Fireball or Scorch.
And that’s with full cooldowns up. So here are you 2 seconds with all CDs IF a Greater was pre casted and flying when the countdown starts, and that leaves the Mage with 0 damage. And it doesn’t kill on it’s own with that.

Now should we happen to look at the warlock clip from earlier, 2 CBs of 1.1s cast >> 100-0.

Nope you did make claim broken = unfun, but reasoning you gave supported only broken=> unfun

which is not the same.

And for broken = unfun that isn’t true. Affli is unfun and yet it is not broken.

For same reason that it doesn’t make sense to mention Trump is president in debate whether Warlock is broken.

The former. I have issue that the only evidence you presented doesn’t even support your conclusion.

I do realize that it is not.

https://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/a3121120.nsf/home/statistical+language+-+correlation+and+causation

no you don’t
you simply said while …downside… it is too rewarding, therefore broken
so you kinda threw all the downside away and claimed it’s broken because it’s too rewarding
which we can do the same for Ress… while you can ress somebody only outside of combat, it is still too rewarding to get it off and it can change game easily

I don’t think you comprehend what whataboutism is. Because comparing your irrelevant and off topic contribution to more clearly showing irrelevant off topic contrubition doesn’t mean whataboutism.

Again, I didn’t. Most =/= all.

My point, for the 4th time, is that most broken things are probably unfun. I gave plenty of examples to prove my point. Do you disagree with that?

That is not the same as broken = unfun, but if you are illiterate I can’t help you further.

As a result, it’s not surprising to find that most unfun abilities can be broken too- In a good or a bad way, though again, I said this isn’t always the case. Do you disagree with this?

Again with these weird analogies. It’s obviously related to the topic, so this doesn’t add anything to the conversation.

OK so since you now admit I have provided evidence, it’s not up to you to counter argue why this isnt the case- Glad we got that out of the way. Why, then?

If you read the article you read more than a few pages in you’d actually realize that the outcome is the exact same thing. 100% correlation causes the exact same outcome as a causality.

From thereon you can then derive if you get 100% correlation all the time you’re probably looking at a causality, though you can also see natural causalities in the world.

So again, hit & miss.

I didn’t “Kinda” do anything you propose. If you want to be pragmatic you propose a pragmatic argument. I provided my analysis, now provide yours.

I will 100% win the argument that it is way more easier to get off a CB than it is to get off a succesfull resurrection, regardless of whether we go with qualitative or quantitative route.

Well either one of us does or neither of us does and I’m obviously putting the money on myself so here we are at an impasse.

If we assume the definition is being able to kill someone in 2-4 seconds then this is nothing new. Plenty of classes & even more comps could do that in earlier expansions too, it’s nothing new that only came with legion and bfa.

No, I disagree with conclusion that because broken things are probably unfun, that then unfun thing is “probably” broken because of that. That’s non-sequitur, which I proved over and over as being illogical conclusion.
Yes, Warlock is unfun, but that doesn’t make it broken even if ALL broken things were unfun.

I do understand what you’re saying. Problem I have is that what you’re saying (“your point”) contradicts logic. It’s like saying “Trump is president therefore Warlock is broken”. I don’t disagree with premise, Trump is indeed president of USA. But the conclusion derived from it is illogical.

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It isn’t.

As I said several times before, an ability being unfun doesn’t automatically mean it is broken- Nor the opposite. Nor did I say that unfun means that it is automatically broken: I said it probably is. That’s not a cause and effect. That’s a correlation claim.

I did however say, and I continue claiming it so, that the correlation between the two (in this context, IE arenas) is there, positive enough for it to be mentioned, and I proved with the examples.

CB is broken. CB is unfun to play with and play against, and I -claim- that it is an unfun ability precisely because, again, it is very unfortunate to face since there’s a very limited amount of things you can do to stop it, and on top of that even if you do play everything correctly, eventually 1 of those bolts is gonna come through and that might be enough to just 100-0 you in a matter of seconds.

Now it could be unfun for a number of other reasons as you propose, but in this context (IE: Arena) I think there is sufficient evidence to prove me right. If you disagree, you can argue against it.

I could add other abilities like wake of ashes, vendetta, lasso and several others there on the analysis but the answer is the same, the topic is simply about warlocks but I acknowledge this problem is widespread throughout the game.

Again, throughout this argument, you’ve been, as I have said, arguing against nobody because you fundamentally do not seem to disagree with me at all. You claim I say things I’ve not implied and you argue against points I never claimed absolute but tied to the context we’re in.

Unless you of course are ready to make the claim that an ability being broken is not a viable reason at all behind an ability being unfun- And I really don’t think you will be able to make a credible argument for it, but have a try.

This is your entire issue here. I never claimed that because an ability is unfun, therefore it is broken- It certainly can be, but I didn’t ever say that it is always so.

Quote me where I ever said so and we can get this over with and maybe you’ll finally realize you’ve been shadowboxing yourself all along.

So your claim is that Warlock is unfun, which you didn’t prove. That there is correlation between unfun and broken from which you derive that there is high chance of warlock being broken.

Well… making multiple unsupported assumptions and from that derive that Warlock might be broken… well, it also might not. So you didn’t contribute anything. Not to mention how ridiculous it is to say that something might be broken and requiring for it so many assumptions. You could’ve said simply that warlock might be broken without making any assumptions. It’d be exactly the same.

Again, quote me. Where did I ever claim what you proposed?

YES! You actually realized the basic premise of arguing, christ that took long.

I laid bare all the opinions and views as to why I think the way I do- While you kept arguing about whether I can do whatever I was supposedly doing.

So, again. Argue against me if you disagree with me so.

Ok so if it’s so ridiculous and easy, give some credible arguments?

I’ve been waiting for them for seven posts now, so it’s about time.

You fall really awkwardlly silent when you are actually asked to argue for your viewpoint, you rather go on about why I’m ridiculous or my views are, but you never actually attack the argument itself.

I don’t need to present my arguments when your arguments are simply unsupported. That’s hitchen’s razor. Anything which was assumed without support can be also denied without support.

I gave credible arguments for why you’re totally wrong at your conclusions.
To stop you from derailing into off topic of “is warlock unfun”.
Obviously you lack knowledge on basic logic and burden of proof. But that doesn’t make my arguments lacking credibility, it just means you’re incapable of comprehending them.

Yet I proved there’s support. Mechanics that are too rewarding, that is, an ability that can quite literally 100-0 a person and to which your only defensive is to “lol just get behind a pillar” unless you have a CD like spell reflection or similar up, even outside of infernal, is fundamentally broken. Because at the end of the day, even if you manage to drop 4 our of 5 casts (a generous assumption to make), the fifth one is still strong enough to kill you outright.

You didn’t. You just admitted that you were arguing against yourself all along.

I didn’t derail. I proved a correlation and a result came out of that. You tied up to my method, which (unironically) is offtopic, rather than just arguing against any of my points.

No, your arguments don’t lack credibility because I can’t comprehend them- You simply didn’t present any, as you were too busy making bizarre dog & trump examples like some high redditposter.

Didn’t work out so well, did it?

Well, there is no ability in game that can quite literally 100-0 a person available to players.

No, Chaos Bolt does not deal 220k+ damage to be enough to kill you, it deals around 40k. More with cooldowns depending on how badly you play. But even if you’re afk, 220k is probably fairy tale. People have generally 220k (sometimes more) HP.
And no, you’re not required to stop every Chaos Bolt.

Hm, no?

Where exactly? Can you link me the proof? I gave you counterexample which completely destroys validity of your “correlation” (which is not even proven).
Somehow Destro is unfun therefore broken, but affli is unfun and not broken?
Maybe we can’t judge something being broken because it is unfun?
Which necessarily leads to: unfun is off topic to being broken.

You are simply ignoring them. Here I presented you arguments again and again, even in this post, I even gave you mathematical proof that your method (or argument or opinion or whatever you call it) is wrong and doesn’t lead to valid conclusion and yet, you just without evidence dismiss it.