Did wow pve get broken due to esports

Community General Discussion
1

I say yes due to a few things.

  1. talents, it is easier to prune the talents to make pvp more balanced, than to have the old talent system.

  2. due to the pruning you can easily monitor what spec is the flavour of the month.

those 2 things unfortunately makes a huge impact on pve, to the extent you have no real choise, now I am not saying that the old classic talents where perfect, far from it, but it had huge potential, and would only have needed a tweak to make them more intresting, maby a smal prune and remove talents that where totaly usless and make them base line instead, like the 1% buffs to dmg and things.
but still keeping it so you can choose what skills to pic.

like a Bm hunter can choose to use talents from both surv and MM if so wanted to, though offcourse every choise should impact the gameplay, like you can not have both aimed shot and chimaera shot for example, to atleast to some extent keep things balanced, just an example.

but what about pvp then, yes, random bgs works as now, you go in whit what you have equipped.
but arena and rated bgs, gets changed, want to do rated bgs, you choose from preset chars, and on top of it, all teams have to have same classes, for example this month you can choose from warrior, druid healer, priest healer etc…
Arenas the same, 2 vs 2 this month warrior and priest, 3vs3 monks healer, DH dps, and dk dps. and so on.
theese all changes from eighter month or on weekly bases, on top of it, all gear is preset also, and you can not change gear at all.

random bgs again you get items you can buy for pvp, and from rated you get honor to buy gear, but this gear can only be used random bgs, and are not much better than what random bgs gets, on top of that for rated you get transmog items and other items you can use.

atleast for me buy doing this, there is no no need to nerf talents to same extent as now, becuse it would never affect rated bgs anyways, considerin every team is the same.
would some hate it, probably but it would be fair for everyone, and random bg people can lol arround whit what ever they want to as now.

5 Likes
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Yes Esports is the work of the devil, same as lootboxes

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Wait, there’s a WoW esport scene?

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I don’t think PvP scheme in general and esports had any affects on PvE talents and decisions in general. In fact PvP players have their own talents. They added back some talents because PvE pruning had heavy toll on PvP gameplay.

I totally agree with that. The only reason they will stick to this talent tree because it is easier for them to prune and balance.

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Old trees were far easier to balance. Old trees would provide only 1-2 new abilities per spec and most other talents were just minor boosts like 0.1 reduced cast.

@OP I don’t see how "wow PVE got broken. Its probably in best state it ever was. In the past you used to have differences between top spec and bot go over 60%. Now people complain if its 5%.

Or did you make mistake in thread name and you actually meant PVP?

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I actually thought that the new Talent trees were better until I played Vanilla/Classic again and realized that those are more fun.

Easier to balance due to the low amount of abilities and you can still somewhat customize your character with different boons. Yes, there are “Cookie cutter” builds but those are not really -needed- while you do have to pick the best option in BFA to remain competitive.

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Well ye, you can choose to not take talent that reduces chance for opponent to resist your spells as fire mage and instead take lower pushback when casting Arcane missiles. And call that a customization. But you are just gimping yourself. In BFA talent choices are much more impactful, not to mention you can futher customize your character with Azerite traits and Essences. Fun is subjective term, i understand that. But i admit i don’t understand whats fun about old talents. They could do that on retail too. Increase cast time on ability by 0.5 sec and then make you click on talent to reduce it by 0.5. When they reworked talents they gave you abilities you would normally choose anyway for that spec as baseline and made talents have impact on gameplay.

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Esports and the whole Woke-movement that forces characters and creates broken stories broke BfA.

First one ruined the gameplay
Second one killed anyone trying to find haven on the story to weather this clownfest.

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they have now their own talents, but that was not always, and that is what I think broke pve due to esports and pvp, becuse pruning the talents did affect pve quite a lot actualy, you can se it real easy where after almost every nerf or buff, the new fotm is borne, this offcourse also affects pvp no question about it, but it also makes a huge inbalance on how classes works, it aitn as bad now in bfa for the moment, but it was realy bad at one point, where due to nerfing that was made due to pvp, affected pve so horrid, people rerolled in masses at one point.

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What is wrong with PvE? If there is any problem with PvE it is trash looking items, except that whether it is boss fights or raid zones they are pretty cool. Same things apply to Mythic dungeons as well. There are dozens of things that we can criticise Blizz related to WoW but PvE design is not one of them.

1 Like
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Yes.
Just look at the older expansions (classic made that easier) how much freedom there was. Look at retail how much they control your gameplay.

PvP, Esports, World firsts, M+… they all contribute to restricting the ways we can play the game. The other one: The stats the ActiBlizz show their investors.

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There’s a forced e-sports scene with piles of cash pumped into it by blizz, but nothing anyone actually likes or respects, as soon as blizz drops the act it will die out

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It is not at all like that, I am sorry but pruning and new talents happened before esport even.

If anything, it is the other way around, what is killing PvP is PvE.

PvP suffered alot when they homogenized all classes because of PvE players cried their classes are not viable in all raid/dungeons.

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That’s like 95% of all talents, more than a small tweak. And i don’t really know where you see choices in old talent trees. Currently on classic you have 6 lines, with the seventh being a 1 point active ability in general. On average, out of those 6 lines only the first 2 have more than 5 points, which is the minimum required to advance deeper into the tree. After that there is no choice.

If i were to ask 100 people to make a feral dps in classic, the number of differences (where people actually have a choice) would be smaller than retail. Smaller in both number and the impact those talents have.

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Where the esports at? You mean DOTA? Which is based on Warcraft 3 map and we’re playing World of Warcraft? If not, i don’t see any connection between WoW and esports.

Also, is PvE broken? Didn’t notice that one. My PvE works fine dude.

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No. WoW has achieved what no other MMORPG ever has -> making every single class and every single spec viable and MORE OR LESS equal in terms of performance, and that’s a beautiful thing and should NEVER change.

Anyone who says otherwise should be completely ignored like the idiot they are. If you want unbalanced, broken specs go play ESO, GW2, SWTOR or Classic.

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I say just one thing.

PVE gearing was always raid focused in wow. Now, it’s mythic+ focused. Because let’s face it. Not only they’re tossing every single raid in the game in dumpster after their patch is over, but also they’re making sure that you need mythic+ to get high end gears, prepare for raids and even get better gears than heroic raid itself. The only exception is mythic raids, and tbh, most people never even see mythic, let alone play it, and even less common, GEAR UP with it.

Meantime, mythic dungeons will constantly be updated with each patch. Keys upgraded. New seasons left and right. They’re recycling mythic+ over and over. While raids are left to rot, the moment a new patch arrives.

All because mythic+ ESPORTS. But the funny thing is, mythic raiding is more popular for spectators than mythic dungeons. Blizzard’s logic is amusing sometimes.

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The cookie cutters aren’t “really needed” in the same way the BFA min max choices aren’t “really needed”. It’s about being as competitive as you can be. There is no difference in the viability of min max specs across both games, it’s just a question of whether you care to do it.

Now if you’re suggesting min max is somehow “required” in bfa in a way that in classic it is not, I’m not sure why you’d say that. I’ve never, ever, ever had a player in bfa recommend I change my talents so long as my dps/tanking/healing is performing as well as it needs to. I’m not seeing this whole “min max is NEEDED” in bfa. Maybe if you tour the highest mythics, but that’s a more a question of how high endgame goes in bfa compared to classic. Similarly if you think you could have got away with a subpar build in vanilla naxx back in the day, you are mistaken. We won’t see such talent elitism yet because classic is locked on entry endgame with patch balance where its effectively EZ mode. Once endgame of actual substance appears (AQ, Naxx) in line with the patch balance, you will see the talent elitism creep in again if you want to progress in the top endgame, making it a similar case to bfa (top endgame sees insistence on “best builds”)

I will say this though, bfa talent viability across choices is generally much better. Talent choices in many cases sim closely or are clearly viable in different situations (cleave, AOE, St) which means there is choice. In classic on many class tiers there is no true competition in terms of dps/performance, do you pick 5% dmg increase or 5% parry chance? As a dps class the choice is obvious, its an illusion of choice. When you filter out all of the filler stuff like this, then the choices are far more narrow. As another poster said also, as you climb the tree, the choices reatri t even further, tier 5 and 6 typically have only just enough points to move you down meaning there’s literally one choice to take (unless you forgo typically a 10% performance increase in favour of more dodge or parry for example).
Yes you can go “off kilter” with choices, but people are tripping if they think such builds are seen as comparatively viable compared to the variation in BFA. A min max enh shaman is seen as far superior to one who has picked wierd “off tank” talents, and the difference in perception between them is greater than say between a crit-icecap frost DK and a haste BreathoS setup. Fact is the two DKs may actually outperform the other in differing situations in their primary role (dps). The “off tank” enh shaman will never outperform the min max one in any dps situation, and will neither outperform any tank in a tanking one. This enh shaman will not be getting picked for content above 5 man dungeons above other enh shaman, and certainly won’t be involved in any serious progression by any guild that takes such seriously. Both DKs on the other hand may well be.

How people can say classic rewards choice more in terms of play I have no idea. If I go for a “fun build” over min max in BFA the difference in Dps (assuming I gear properly and support such a build properly) may be as high as 10%. In classic if I go for for the fun build (I’ll use enh as an example again) you’d be looking at a vastly greater difference in performance. Forgoing stuff like 10% more dmg or a 20% cast time reduction has huge impacts. So fun choice is rewarded with being fun. In retail fun can also perform as well as be more fun playstyle .

People care less about 10% damage differences than they do 25% or more, especially if you’re progressing naxx.

I’ll also say in retail, in that progression you may well see dps classes of different specs together. When it comes to vanilla endgame in places like naxx, many classes not only min maxxed, they all followed the same “spec” aka there were frost mages. Whereas in retail you will find frost and fire mages with varying builds playing in different endgame content (let’s not talk about arcane atm).

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Yeah, it’s all about getting as many of those ridiculous proc items as possible and abuse them as much as possible before they get nerfed :smile:

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Wow pve or PvP hardly called esports - tournaments are just formalities.