I can agree with this, but I also feel like perfect moment where dying was the desired outcome were had and blizzard failed to deliver, so fixing that in such a hastily manner leaves a smaller impact than it should.
thralls death as you wrote it is impactful but a bit random, and jainas didn’t feel right for the moment.
while I want the old cast to die and be replaced, I suppose I also desire their death to have the build up it deserves.
Consider how vol’jin died so suddenly, which works if you had a setting where such is common, but in warcraft felt like a needless counter balance because Varian met his end in the same patch/expansion/pre-event.
I actually was wondering this very question myself when I wrote their deaths: How dramatic should they really be?
I chose to go with the ones I wrote for two reasons: One, because they both have a link to the history. Thrall dies against the very same elves his fellow greenskins slew when they first arrived to Kalimdor. But just like Grom, he fought for the Horde and genuinely wanted to improve their lives.
As for Jaina, her father died in the same Zone as she did. Surrounded by friends and foes alike, and ultimately brought low by an alliance of unlikely allies, jut like how the durotar allstars did with his father.
Second, I didn’t make their deaths overly dramatic or impactful or sacrificial, because it’d sell the idea that WoW has now lost something so fundamental to its story that it will forever change the game: But thats not true. The Horde and the code of honorable orcs does not die with Thrall. Nor does the Alliance shatter when Jaina does. They live on.
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I like this, I think it is poetic, however it would be better if her killer was Rexxar, I can’t explain why, but I feel like it would complete something if he did the deed.
I agree, the horde and the alliance have moved past these two, their deaths would not be an end to anything but instead fuel new motivations and give raise to new characters, a new orc, which we have been lacking, and perhaps a fresh pair of eyes from kul’tiras who hasn’t spend a majority of their time away from home.
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That actually was my original plan- But I chose to use Magatha instead because:
A) Rexxar has said he’d answer the call of Horde when it asks for his help. But I doubt he’d answer the call of Magatha who poisoned one of his best friends. I was even debating the addition of Gazlowe since he also realli liked Cairne, but I thought he’d be pragmatic enough to see past it here.
B) It fit more to have Magatha, an old crone of a woman to murder a mage prodigy through cunning and deception than by brute forcing their way to Jaina, as Rexxar likely would have.
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I see the reasoning.
one could have delayed Jainas death and found a way to work Rexxar into a situation where killing Jaina was his best choice, mayhape a series of events which would mirror the one her father was in.
perhaps new Theremor would pose a threat big enough that Rexxar couldn’t possible ignore it, forcing his hand to take part in the frontline, and without thrall to sooth the situation Rexxar would eventually have to fight and kill her.
it can even further serve to put a spot light on Rexxar, earning him the ire of the kul’tirans for killing the father and the daughter.
(maybe I missed it, but I feel Jaina took the majority of the hate for her fathers death, and I would like for Rexxar to instead carry that mark, which this would be the opportunity for times 2)
Not gonna lie, I’d probably not enjoy this expansion much more than I did Battle for Azeroth. Because this expansion idea, though it’s evidently had a lot of thought and effort put into it, makes a lot of the same mistakes that made me disappointed with the story in WoW.
First, I just don’t think that another expansion focused on faction war should come this soon after the last one. Not only are the Alliance and Horde probably still reeling from the losses suffered during the last war, there’s also the matter of the unchained Scourge, which has been keeping both factions busy and unable to focus on rebuilding.
Second, beyond the main premise not really making much sense at this point in time, the whole thing feels rushed. Calia’s general behavior is inconsistent with what we’ve seen of her previously, and coupling that with the sudden introduction of a rival Forsaken leader just feels like we’ve missed a few steps. Talanji’s entire characterization during the peace meetings in Pandaria also feels like it’s being purposefully done to instigate another war as soon as possible, which admittedly isn’t entirely out of character for her, but it would absolutely be out of character for all the other Horde leaders to miss the obvious red flags when they’ve already been through two warchiefs who started war with the Alliance and made the Horde suffer for it. Turalyon feels like he’s just a walking talking cliché of a Scarlet Crusade roleplayer, which undermines any sort of development made of his character because it’s just too obvious that his entire purpose here is to drive the factions towards war from the Alliance side. And Tyrande seems to just be back to where she was before Shadowlands. There’s no sense of progression from where we were to where we’re going, it just feels like the chess pieces have been brute forced into position so that we can get another go at a faction war.
Third, Jaina’s death doesn’t work at all. Firstly because Magatha Grimtotem’s inclusion in this story is beyond shaky already. Secondly because the use of the Doomstone would retcon a pretty significant part of the Shaman order hall questline from Legion. Thirdly because Jaina is Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras now - what is she even doing trying to make a new Theramore? And fourthly, if Jaina can just teleport a whole city onto the coast of Kalimdor, what’s to stop her from loading it up with Alliance troops and just dumping it right on Orgrimmar’s doorstep? What’s to stop her from levitating it Dalaran-style and just fly it over to wherever she needs it? The whole thing feels like it’s reverse-engineered to get to the point where Magatha kills Jaina, which is not what you want a story like this to feel like.
Thrall’s death makes more sense, but doesn’t work from a storytelling perspective. Malfurion and Thrall fought the Burning Legion together, at the slopes of Mount Hyjal. There should be far more weight to a confrontation between them, instead of a plain old skirmish. The complete lack of characterization offered for Malfurion in this scenario can kinda be explained by the whole thing being seen from the Horde’s point of view, but even then his character feels uncharacteristically callous and empty here, exasperating the issue of Malfurion’s character from previous expansions (in that he barely has one). The fact that it is yet again Tyrande and not Malfurion that is in focus on the night elves’ side also doesn’t help at all. If there was ever a time for her to step back and him to step up, this would be it, surely. As it stands, his inclusion in this story feels like little more than an excuse to kill off Thrall, not to build a competent story with both characters.
All that being said, there are things here that I’d probably like a lot. I am always in favor of introducing new characters, especially for the less represented races. Bringing renewed focus to the ice trolls is also a plus in my book. And while I think Magatha Grimtotem’s inclusion here is messy at best, I do like the idea of a Grimtotem coming in to challenge Baine, and Baine having to deal with that in his own way. I don’t think you need a faction war to do these things in the story though. In fact I think these things would work better in an expansion where there is no (overt) conflict between the Horde and the Alliance, where both factions focus on rebuilding after the Fourth War and the Scourge’s onslaught. That would give plenty of room for new characters to enter the picture, and for old characters to step back out of the limelight.
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That’s fine, I disagree with that but you have your PoV re: your preferences.
As for the Scourge, we haven’t really seen Horde and Alliance struggling with them at all since the pre-launch event. Granted, the issue for that is more on Blizzard’s than the players side. If Blizzard wants it to look like there are reeling effects and consequences of a massive scourge invasion, then that should be a thing in the game- Yet, it isn’t. Hence, I haven’t put much weight to it either.
One of the reasons I decided to write them going to war so soon actually is precisely because they are still reeling from the war. People are hungry, angry and old wounds close slowly. Now if ever is a moment for a powderkeg to go off. You also mentioned earlier that it feels a bit repetitive, but that’s actually the whole point of the expansion: The Cycle of hatred. It doesn’t end till one of them decides to walk away. But, nobody’s walking away.
I think the entitled side for her fits very well, actually. Granted, i will fully agree with you that that kind of entitled, almost possessive kind of want to rule Lordaeron hasn’t been shown in her since her death (in fact, the whole opposite is true when she still lived), but I base my development of her character in these events:
a) She did willingly sabotage the meeting between Anduin and Sylvanas. No doubt with good intentions, but she wanted the forsaken to have another path. Usurping power and trying to fill a power vacuum is not something that is foreign to her.
b) We know that the light does “corrupt” in the same sense that the void does, currently. It can make people blindly follow what they feel is righteous, good and pure (see: Alternative Draenor, lightbound orcs). One of the reasons why I am building this “light” pushing itself as you later describe in a very scarlet-y way into the alliance is precisely because the Alliance has recently been filled with a lot of very prominent light users and wielders. Even in IRL, modest groups quickly turn into echo chambers that can have very radical views, when prompted on them. In her case, the light simply acts through her in a way where she wants to try and “save” Lordaeron and the Forsaken by proxy from another war, and instead unite them together. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, etc.
As for Wraithbone, the fact that he pops out of nowhere is not a coincidence. It is very much something I picked for him, and the Bloodletters animated short would explore that in greater detail. He’s been there with the Forsaken since the beginning, just another Executor in line who has just done his duty, but has now decided to act when he sees his people are in crossroads, and there’s nobody else to take matters into their own hands.
As you say yourself, Talanji’s choices definitely are in line with her past (even if you disagree with them), + the fact that she’s personally been imprisoned by the same Alliance for the mere reason that they were going to discuss an alliance with the Horde, rather than having already partaken into one. She if any leader knows the true extent of Alliance’s paranoia, because she’s seen it firsthand.
As for the other leaders, the red flags are something that even come up and they do act upon. The only difference is that they think they will be able to handle it this time now that they are aware of it, but as is shown later on in the story and commented by characters like Gazlowe, things aren’t so simple. It’s also a bit hard to act upon the red flags when they have some truth to them, too. Again, a cycle of hatred.
I already answered this before, but I want to point out that I do make quite a distinction in the sense that Turalyon wants to unite the Horde races in light, rather than go for a crusade. That’s how it starts, at least, which is quite different from the Scarlet crusade. But, like with so many things, when things don’t go down a plan, other paths might open up.
This I will fully admit though is most likely because I have watched 0 (0/0) of Shadowlands cinematics so I have no idea whats up with her, I only know that she goes on some spirtual journey (ish) which conclusion is that elune just kind of forgot abt the souls and that vengeance is bad, yada yada. Also apparently she lets sylvanas go or whatever.
So yeah, it’s no surprise that it might feel like a radical change in her case, although I do think there is quite a lot of room for bitterness and hate in her otherwise devout heart, as is with Malfurion whom you mention later down the line, both having seen their kin and forests annihilated by the Horde. It’s also a bit pointless to say that they fought once together, Sylvanas and Genn fought Legion together in Broken Shore and yet the next time they meet they’re at eachothers throats. It’s not a 1/1 comparison, but you get the point.
Anyway, I don’t necessarily see it as a problem that I’d try to distance the characterization and characters from Shadowlands- I do mention at the start after all that the Shadowlands are just closed after the events, which allows you to sever the connections to the lore of the said expansion as much as possible.
In fairness, that’s not my doing but rather what Blizzard has been doing with the lore for the past 7 years. There has been no point A to point B. No conclusions, no consequences, always just moving forward. So it’s no surprise if the sudden, abrupt change where everything just falls in line and supports the main narrative that it will feel like a sudden stop and change- That is fully intentional.
Is there an underlying motive to force the narrative to support faction war in this instance? Absolutely. Can it feel out of place in some places? Almost certainly. Is it done with what is established in the setting and what fits the setting? Absolutely.
Wow’s been plagued for nearly a decade now with narratives that go this and that way and don’t tell a coherent, consistent story. Some things are outright contradictory with one another. So yes, if you notice that characters, world events and the entire narrative is pushing toward one goal, then that is correct. That’s the whole point.
That motive could have been anything else, too. Rebuilding. Prosperity. Common enemy, doesn’t matter, so long as it’s consistent and has one end goal, it’s good. I just chose faction conflict because thats where I think WoW’s strength over any other MMO lies in.
1st: One of the good points about adding Magatha into the story is that, thanks to her being largely forgotten and/or left alone in the grand scheme of WoW’s things, you can build up an infinite number of things what might she been up to all this time. Does it also fit her character? Absolutely, so I chose to add her.
2nd: I’m unsure what retcon you’re referring to- But if you mean that it’s supposed to be contained in the Shaman order hall, then she just reacquired it. Probably with quite a bit of blood and espionage, as is fitting of her (her husband did have a climbing accident, after all). You’re right though that I should’ve had characters like Muln mention it, now that you bring it up- Granted, she doesn’t use the stone until in Dustwallow.
3rd: Jaina being the lord admiral doesn’t stop her from building or having new settlements built- In fact, I chose the “new Theramore” as a bit of an irony that she would now be following right in her fathers footsteps, though not thinking of it that way, of course. To her, building that town there is to remember those that died in the former Theramore when the Manabomb was built, as well as building a new future for the Alliance in Kalimdor. There’s also the fact that she just doesn’t trust Horde (as she comments several times in SL, as far as I remember), so 2 birds and one stone.
The thing is she’s been able to more or less do whatever she wants the past few expansions, including this. Her power creep’s by far the most absurd out of the characters introduced (such as surviving an encounter with Azeroth’s heroes that actually slew a titan, for one).
Why haven’t the rest of the Alliance cities been made into floating metropols like the one in Dalaran? Or any myriad of the plot holes in the game- Why, indeed? Well, we don’t know that and they’d better off being fixed, but they exist all the same.
You’re of course entitled to that view- But I did build the story with the intention of touching at both the past and the present of Warcraft universe and giving the character a sendoff that I think that was long overdue and that she deserved. As I’ve said before, her use for WoW story was expended long before in BFA.
I will admit that I think I should have made Malfurion’s motifs clearer and I did write that particular piece of story from Horde PoV: Mostly because I had already written the piece of story for week 1 on Alliance from obv. Alliance PoV. So I do believe that it’d make more sense, had I written it from also their PoV.
But otherwise, as I said before, I already answered the point re: Malfurion’s past and present, his history with thrall and so forth. I think it absolutely fits for these two titans to duel one another and for it to end this way as I previously replied to Thuzar.
Thats fine, as I said, you could build an expansion around other features. I just happened to choose this one.
I thank you for your detailed response and although we disagree, I appreciate the effort all the same.
So, now that the new expansion is out, I have some thoughts:
Lore/story: Too early to tell, but I remain pessimistic.
Gameplay elements: Glad to hear they are implementing class + spec talent trees- That is something I did too, in my suggestion and have been suggesting for 8+ years now.
However…
I have a fear that they are making it way more complicated than it needs to be. I also don’t really understand why introduce choice in the class talent tree, instead of making it just something that is nice to progress with as u level up, as even they themselves said is the biggest goal.
Introducing choices will just add another cookie cutter interface, spec talents already have that. So i see it pointless that they’d add another.
As for gearing, in terms of pvp, I have been advocating for WoD gearing since Legion alpha. Glad to be proven right.
It does have the small caveat with pve upgrades. I would just flat out leave that part out because it will risk pve players feeling pressured to do pvp.
Art and visuals look solid/ok so far.
The new race + class looks absolutely degenerate. Doesn’t fit WoW aesthetic at all, continues down the path of hypermobile classes which will eventually force all the classes that way (see: LoL champion design) and hamfisting multiple purposes to a single ability which means you can’t design a whole lot of counterplay to them and it results to the same gamebreaking DH has caused to the game.
Professions on the other hand look mega solid and if they leave out legendary crafting then this system has the potential to be the best iteration to date.
UI and interface elements I am indifferent abt because you can achieve the same thing with addons.
I already blurted out yday in guild discord I’d be quitting over this but if the gameplay continues being as solid as it looks to be, I will reconsider that. Lore/storywise the expansion seems like a lost cause.
Also re: the dragon flying mechanic thing is a feature literally nobody (0/0) asked for. Another case of trying to remake the wheel for no reason. Wasted dev time + assets, probably because that stuff is way easier than actual game design, but I digress.
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I don’t use these addons, so it’s nice to be able to shuffle things. And it may cut back on some extra addons people won’t need. It doesn’t hurt.
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Finally, no need to download third party stuff to have an interface that isn’t quite so horrible.
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If only Blizzard had hired you.
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You leave Pantheon alone!!!
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