Faction Loyalty


#102

Funny how the vast majority of Sylvanas fanboys/Baine haters are Blood Elves, I can’t wait for Classic so that the most obnoxious race isn’t in the game.


(Aeula) #103

That was Lor’themar. He didn’t tell anyone about his plans except the player and Varian.

Lor’themar is a traitor too.


#104

Loyalty towards a faction in a game which gives you the freedom of choice in choosing one seems a bit silly IMO.


(Zarao) #105

They did. In a “honest” faction war, that also had Blood elves killing them in turn to the point both sides could comfortably call it even in a negotiating table.

The Alliance taking arms against them at a time when both sides are already arguing about “Ok, let’s bury the war axe and start working with each other”, makes a huge difference. And Lorthemars portrayal is thrown in a rather positive light when said events cause him to break any negotiations going on.
The Alliance had just proved them that reconsidering their position regarding them, was a bad play for Blood elves.

Now, we have Baine. The Alliance is killing his people during a war, he decides he’ll punish those that retaliate.
The Alliance raids an allied capitol, and with said beaten status, Baine argues for negotiations.
Horde soldiers die on every front in an ongoing war, and Baine decides its a good idea to further pile up odds against them by turning in the lone leverage they obtained from an already crumbling war campaign.

Timing, portrayal during war times, approach, and mindset. All going against Baine.

Where Lorthemar made the right choice (continue fighting, argue for peace, or call it even), Baine did the wrong one.

Hence why Lorthemars actions are shown in a better light than Baines.
Their cases aren’t even close regarding portrayal.

We can’t even argue for a long term strategy that appeals to the Alliance mercy. Last time Baine did such and kept his good terms with both Theramore and Stormwind, the Barrens were STILL invaded and Mulgore sieged a few months later.


(Araphant) #106

Why did you write they didn’t then?

Also, I love how you took your entire time to slag on Baine. No one is defending Baine, Baine is an abominable piece of writing. But Lor’themar himself comes as hypocritical as Baine.

Tell me, is it not true that Lor’themar turned his back on the faction which helped his people by negotiating with the Alliance? Did he not bow to Jaina Proudmoore on the isle of Thunder, showing her respect, despite calling for her head? She had imprisoned Sunreavers in the Violet Hold during this time.

Isn’t he working with Jaina in Nazjatar right now, despite the fact that Jaina was instrumental in the sack of Dazar’Alor? Does he not stand with Thrall and Saurfang despite what he said about Sylvanas in the heritage quest-line?

You can not flip-flop over the place.

Horde Soldiers die on every front, but Lor’themar decides its a good idea to leave the faction. Truly, I am in awe of his grandeur and logic.

The double standards are abominable. Lor’themar’s excuses ring as hollow as Baine’s.

Also, did you just call Derek Proudmoore leverage? Do you honestly think that scheme would amount to something? I think that Jaina’s reaction on seeing Derek makes it rather obvious how that would have worked out.


(Zarao) #107

No, he didn’t. Cairne did.
Baine went behind the factions back instead of challenging the problem openly as a true honourable Horde member would’ve.


(Araphant) #108

Or trying to leave the faction behind everyone’s back, as other honorable members do.


#109

Good question, High Bovine.

I’ve actually been sitting here for ten minutes trying to come up with an answer for why Bob gets a pass and not Baine.

I suppose for me it comes down to characterization, motivation and execution.

Baine’s characterization is a mess. From the exiled Tauren in Cataclysm to the warnings he sent Jaina in Theramore to his infamous mailing of bodyparts to teenage humans to his actions in the war campaign. Some are harmless oddities while others are textbook examples of treason.

When Bob made his move back in Mists his reasoning was entirely made with the well being of his people in mind. Baine seemingly detests needless warfare but was still fighting alongside both Garrosh in Theramore and Sylvanas at Lordaeron even after both warchiefs had committed acts that were completely antithetical to his character and morality.

And execution. The big one.
When Baine finally does act he somehow manages to both undermine the players previous work in the war campaign by freeing Derek while at the same time cozying up to the Prime Evil of that patch and raid tier. Someone who only moments ago raided our expansion hub and tried to have me and my buddies killed.

I think it all comes down to the simple fact that the list of bad things that Baine has done is exponentially longer than Bob’s.


(Araphant) #110

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#111

Bob also had the benefit of going up against a wildly unpopular Warchief.


(Araphant) #112

You mean Bob’s attempts to sneak out of his own faction behind everyone’s back?


#113

I don’t fault him for that. It was clearly in his nations interests.

In fact, I’d have infinitely more respect for Baine if he actually had the guts to quit the Horde than pussyfooting around in a position he obviously detests.


(Araphant) #114

You do understand that I can literally place every charge people put on Baine on Lor’themar? And that’s without reaching or inventing anything.


#115

This might be incorrect, but all of Baine’s actions seem to undermine a sense of justification that Horde players might feel for antipathy against the Alliance, whereas Lorthemar’s don’t.

Taurajo being a legitimate target instead of an indiscriminate slaughter is one, as is rescuing Derek, because if Derek was successful and he crippled the leadership of Kul Tiras, it could be used as a point for desperate measures in a war (a plan which I doubt would’ve worked, Stormwind stood alone when Llane was assassinated IIRC).


(Araphant) #116

Nail on the head.


(Zarao) #117

Because I didn’t say they had never harmed their people. I said Lorthemar pulled out the second they did during said negotiations.

The question asked was: why is it fine for a faction that was negotiating with the Alliance?
The answer is simple: Because they ceased said negotiations the second they were proven ineffective to halt the aggressions.

(And this difference gets an even worse light when comparing the setting and context involved with the two characters).

Yes, and I hate it. Specially when you take into account the fact that they felt like throwing an actual Sunreaver under the bus.

How they butcher Lorthemars character in this altar of awful storytelling that BfA is, becomes secondary to the fact that at the time Lorthemar made the choice to jump sides, his plea was a lot more sympathetic than the reasoning and modus Baines character is currently using.

He did. Mainly because he went from “I’d bath in Blight rather than being with those Alliance hypocrites again”, to “Well, let’s just walk away this time. Killed a few and made my point clear…won’t go back with them tho”.

From his perspective, and given he was taking direct orders from a bunch of orcs that operated almost directly under Garrosh, the Horde soldiers were now considering his people as fodder. And he didn’t want to be part of the faction anymore.
Unless you are implying Baine had the same reasoning, doubtful given he constantly argues about “saving the Horde”, he was knowingly jeopardising Horde effort and wasting Horde soldier lives, fully knowing they weren’t against him or any of his kind.
The ones involved in the war campaign and Horde war effort include the likes of Lasan, Rexxar, Garona, Eitrigg,…

It is. From a detached and cold point of view, he totally was.
As abominable as it might be, he was an asset of value to the Horde war effort.
As morally challenging as it might be, and as dirty as those kind of tactics are, they are still war ways that can turn an adverse situation to the factions advantage.

And It worked with Garona. Not pretty, and certainly not moral.

But its understandable to rather have that than a pile of dead bodies and defeated factions whose way of life may end up being policed by foreign states.

That’s because they are not.
Why Blizzard felt like having Thrall make the same mistake he regretted after Cairnes death, or Varok walk again down the same path he changed his mind about in a cinematic in this EXACT expansion…well, the usual BFA quality writing here.

Cairne would turn in his grave if he saw any of these.

Abandoning the ones you are supposed to lead under someone you consider detrimental or going behind the factions back to carry out actions that argue for surrender or undermine and steal the worth of any death in this ongoing conflict…doesn’t seem like the kind of reasoning that goes well with a Loktar Ogar.


(Araphant) #118

This is all fine and dandy, still doesn’t wash out the fact he turned his back on the entire Horde, despite the fact the Horde helped the blood elves. I can even claim that blood elves would have fought the rest of their former faction on the Alliance’s behalf.

And all of this, because Garrosh was a maniac. He ditched. Everyone.

Vol’jin who came to help Quel’Thalas? Bye. Sylvanas, the ranger general who he claims to adore? Bye. Tauren? Bye.

Baine never offered his tauren to the Alliance.

It is good, I hate it too.

We aren’t arguing perspectives and emotions, we are arguing facts. Baine is a joke, no one argues with that. Even tauren players can not stand him. Especially Tauren players can not stand him.

From a detached and analytical point of view, Derek Proudmoore was an absolute wild card that never would have worked. It is not reasonable to assume that it would have worked or done anything.

You saw Jaina’s reaction on seeing him. Enough said, honestly.

Neither does offering your elves to the other faction, but whatever, we are where we are.

I never liked this characterization of Baine, and I will never argue for him. But you can not tell me that Lor’themar isn’t dodging identical labels just because people love him more.

You often tell me how people judge Sylvanas harsher because they hate her. Do you deny the same in the case of Baine? Do you deny that people judge Lor’themar with more lenience because they like him?


#119

You’re also forgetting that in the First War, Stormwind held the Horde at bay, and it stood alone while it did so. The Alliance of Lordaeron was formed in response to the burning of Stormwind.

The situation is pretty different this time, as Kul Tiras has formally joined the Grand Alliance at the time of the raising of Derek Proudmoore. It might inconvenience them for a while, but to argue it would cripple a nation is a reach.


(Däkär) #120

I for one didn’t.

I still keep them in my basement.


(Araphant) #121

Do you make them read the forums when they are naughty?