Faction Loyalty

(Zarao) #122

It held of two of the Horde clans. Clans that were fighting each other while at it.
And Stormwind held no longer after Garona killed Llane.
That fact, and a newly more competent Warchief called Orgrim Doomhammer, were the factors that tilted an adverse situation to the Hordes advantage.

Not acknowledging Garonas intervention as key in the fall of the city, is wrong. It was very important.

Same could’ve happened with Kul Tiras.
It wasn’t a bulletproof plan, but at least it offered a chance that Baine negated completely.


Like what? That both have worked with the Alliance in the past?

I don’t care if Baine has friends on the blue team. Go nuts, cowboy. But I do care when the interests of his blue buddies take precedence to the Horde

(Däkär) #124

Only if I am in a good mood. Usually I make them drink beer, smoke cigs, wear non-tight clothes and doing all sort of manly stuff.

(Araphant) #125

But Lor’themar who was ready to turn upon his former allies didn’t endanger the Horde’s interest? That’s not working with the Alliance. That’s JOINING THE ALLIANCE, THEN KILLING HORDE. FOR THE ALLIANCE.

Let that sink in.



The point of my argument was that Garona’s intervention was successful because of the factors during that conflict, specifically that Stormwind was isolated at that time, and that the Orcish threat was an unknown and alien threat.

Those 2 factors aren’t the same in the current conflict, where the Alliance is (for the most part) a unified force and they have faced the orcs before and have intelligence on the Horde (despite SI:7 being written as an organisation that’s rather incompetent)

(Zarao) #127

It would still serve to cripple the key asset the Alliance has been going after since the beginning.
In order to get and advantage, the Horde just needed to take care of two things: Jaina and Kul Tiras fleet.

Accomplishing such, would give them the advantage needed to pull their weight and turn the battle in their favour.
The siege of Undercity, and the battle of Dazar’alor, show exactly how relying the Alliance is on these two things.


Sure it would have. But I can at least respect that given the circumstances at the time just as I would have respected Baine if he and the Tauren left.

(Araphant) #129

Your respect, and I do not sneer, so do not take this the wrong way, is meaningless. The facts are crystal clear.

Lor’themar is only getting away with what he did because the blood elven fan-base dominates the Horde, and because he dodged Golden’s tender caress.

He and the Cow are almost identical.

(Zarao) #130

Because this new information is but the latest drop in Baines history.

Lorthemar has a background of egotistical selfishness and zealous protection regarding his people, rest be damned. People find those qualities somewhat positive.
They take said approach and react in kind.
Negotiating with the Alliance becomes something that he is doing for the benefit of those under him, and regardless of how someone personally feels about it, the reasoning he used in conjunction with his personality, makes said actions even understandable. Positive.

Now, we take Baine.
The one that excused the killing of his people, that went to his enemies looking for help when Voljin and the rest were just there for him to see, the one that argues for peace when it’s not sensible doing such, and that has consistently shown reticence fighting for his people when doing so implies going against the Alliance. Regardless of the pile of affronts they kept leaving at his door.

Of course people will see it in a different and less positive light even if we somehow decided that the circumstances were more similar than they actually are.

Lorthemar jumping ship is seen as simply another way to save his people. Baine doing likewise is seen as the usual cow favouring the factions enemies over his own. Again.

Portrayal and context of both characters matter.

It’s a similar reason as to why this ongoing revolution is seen in a worse light than the one Voljin carried out.

Ps: Also Cairne set the bar very high.

(Araphant) #131

People can find this approach positive, I do not mind, but people can not ignore the fact that this positive approach would have lead to blood elves back-stabbing their former allies during a war.

I do not deny that Lor’themar is more protective of his people then Baine, although that is meaningless. Saying that someone is more protective of his own people then Mister “Taurajo is a valid military target” Bloodhoof is like saying I am a better person then Satan.

But I must insist that it does not wash away the other things which go with the package Lor’themar has.

Either way, I do believe we are at a point where we both accented our arguments properly.

Trust me, we all miss him.


The Kul Tiran fleet won’t just go inert because of a dead Lord-Admiral. If that were the case, every army would fall on it’s sword as soon as their commander died.

And Jaina survived a lot. Why would a dead relative be any different, given that she stood aside and watched one die right in front of her.


But this is basically what we do Horde “War Campaign” quests. I don’t recall when it was last time you’ve actually fought against Alliance in this “war”. Somewhere after Undercity siege probably.

(Zarao) #134

The single thing holding together their houses and that managed to summon the ships out of an Old God fog?
It’s not far fetched to assume that removing said key target would cause the kingdom to fracture. It happens quite frequently.

It happened with Stormwind.

Deploying assassins in the field to take down important targets is quite usual.
The Legion did likewise with Kurtalos Ravencrest. And almost succeeded because of it.

(Keydiam) #135

Well, in Warcraft every single army is seemingly a keystone army where you have to kill exactly one guy and suddenly everyone runs around like a headless chicken. And that happens even though nearly every single army in Warcraft has a pretty sophisticated rank system with a high command and staff officers. But apparently you only have to kill character X and for some reason no general, marshall or other officer will take charge of the remaining forces.

But, oh well. Blizzard and military doesn’t go along very well anyway. For a company mainly writing stories about war it’s kinda weird.


What? When did that happen with Humans? The Stormwind/Kul Tiran armies don’t follow that trope. For example, when Daelin Proudmoore was butchered at Theramore, his soldiers bravely resisted the Horde’s onslaught, such as the garrison in Tiragarde Keep that would endure until the Cataclysm. Or even Lordaeron, the army kept fighting long after the death of Terenas and Uther, as we saw with Garithos. And again Dalaran, its wizards barricaded and continued the fight in the ruins outside Dalaran and in Ambermill, despite the destruction of Archmage Antonidas and the rest of the command structure.

(Zarao) #137

As much as I like to bash on Blizzards low-tier and often subpar writing, the consequences of Kurtalos demise were handled rather fine and realistically.

A proficient and experienced commander that came to be quite a good general but that ruled in a society with a defined classist system, and was followed by a bunch of brown-noser aristocrats.
People whose most notable feat was being born in a certain house, and that only wanted to prove themselves better than the rest, both under Ravencrest and once he died.

Cut the head of the snake; and that particular body dies by itself.

The only thing that saved Night elves then, was to have Jarod having a natural predisposition and battle instinct. And being written with more than a single functional neurone.

Anyway, the description above has applied throughout history to lots of civilisations. Both in and outside the game.

Given a similar scenario in Kul Tiras, I could see it working there too. Those houses had just come together after adopting isolationist practices for quite a while.


Assassinating Jaina via a MC’d Derek requires a ton of variables, namely:

  1. Getting into KT safely and not being killed on sight
  2. Not being kept in a prison immediately and ruthlessly interrogated
  3. Getting close enough to her, and not being sent to another facility where he can do no harm (which is the current case with him being sent to Netherlight temple), and
  4. Being successful in dealing a killing blow or having a poison quick enough to kill without being cured (which seems to be quite a feat, given that she survived 24 powerful adventurers)

Not only is the entire plan contingent upon a ton of variables, there is no indication that she has the network to make the plan a success. The in she had (namely Ashvane) is an enemy of the state of KT, and her supporters are mostly dealt with in the ending of KT questing.

Furthermore, the entire plan hinges on Derek being accepted by the Proudmoore family as one of their own, which is rather contradictory to her beliefs of the forsaken and humans never being able to live together.


And even if Jaina died, Tandred would just take her place. He is very popular amongst the Kul Tiran fleet, most of which was not in Nazjatar as can be seen from the cinematics, and the other houses are sworn to the Proudmoores once again, with the separatists all dead. A new age of unity has been ushered in after the Siege of Boralus.

(Zarao) #140

Not really.

She was readily eager to take his word about not being controlled by Sylvanas in the cinematic.
Just as Llane was with Garona.

Sleeper agents rely on how willing their targets are to accept the fact that they are who they say they are.
Mind controlling Derek and triggering him like Gul’dan did with Garona, doesn’t require him to even know he is being used.

And we know as of Jaina’s reaction, that she was accepting enough regarding his condition, and confident in his word, to make said scenario feasible if it truly happened.
It might still do.

Also, you are exaggerating Jaina’s resilience. Raid mechanics aside, a single bullet to the chest killed her (until Chi-Ji resurrected her).
Taking a knife to the heart, is about as effective.


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree about the effectiveness of her plan.