Feedback: Death Knights

Here are the changes I propose

Killing machine is once again all auto attacks not just auto attack crits (I think this is fundamentally what is breaking DK)

Damage realignment:
-frost fever- nerf the damage of frost fever SIGNIFICANTLY i’m not playing a warlock i don’t want to see this as my top DPS ability in an RBG

-remorseless winter- base ability should be a stacking slow that goes up to like 99% slow damage should be nerfed although it’s already pretty bad

-obliterate- Remove all talents making this do magic damage, obliterate should do physical damage and it should hit like a truck even without killing machine, obliterate should hit at least as hard as mortal strike which at level 60 right now is like 9/12k damage non crit

Understand one thing - Nobody plays frost for “exciting” aoe frost damage we like to watch someone’s hp get cut in half by a killing machine proc obliterate and we want more obliterates. I already know you want to build DK as this unstoppable but slow moving juggernaut where if they touch you they “obliterate” you.
You build a lot of classes as builder spender classes - DK is this in reverse our runes are our main resource not runic power, runic power generates to be used on filler abilities like frost strike.

I think another good change would be minimising our dependence on our cooldown for damage, I don’t want my obliterate to do 1000% more damage for 12 seconds every minute i’d rather it did 500% more damage at all times.

Your choices now for this spec will determine whether or not I will be playing the class I have loved since I started playing in cata or whether I was be a flavour of the month floater in DF

1 Like

Ah yes, add that to the list of issues with this talent: Death’s Caress shouldn’t be more rune efficient than Marrowrend for generating Boneshield because it creates this lame incentive to press it in melee whenever it’s off cd. This is not how interesting rotational complexity looks like.

WoW class design is plagued by single purpose buttons which for the most part only increase the number of keybinds but do not add to the gameplay experience in a meaningful manner. Every tank having a dead keybind just to pull mobs at range is one example. The modern solution would be to delete those abilities and overload existing abilities to serve multi purpose use depending on the situation. Alternatively you could attempt to make those buttons more interesting, but in this case it only results in a worse gameplay loop.

Getting to theorycraft and play around with Frost some more on PTR, I am glad that icecap is getting reduced from 4 seconds down to 2. It feels ridiculous having 5 individual Pillar of Frosts every 2 minutes, that’s a 25 second cd! However, I have my gripes with the tree.

For one, Might of the Frozen Wastes will not be available on prepatch for a 2 handed obliteration build at all. Without it, the spec is severely gimped, like, I’m telling you on ptr with ilvl 285 weapon I’m doing 4.5k consistent dps while doing the exact same rotation as with dual wield ilvl 249 weapons where I’m doing 8.5k dps consistent. Even the burst isn’t that fair to compare, with the ilvl 249 weapons I do about 10.5k dps burst whereas with 285 I’m doing about 9k dps burst. Burst is closer but… the ilvl is a huge factor in this regard too. I propose making Might of the Frozen Wastes baseline, being forced to pick a node like that to make a weapon choice just USABLE doesn’t feel that great imo. That also offers an extra point which continues into my next point;

Frost DK has 10 2 point nodes. Unholy has 8, Blood has 6. Right now I’m struggling to theorycraft a pvp build because no matter what, funnily enough, I’m always 2 points from an ideal build. Cold Heart is stuck in the way of Empower Rune Weapon’s 2nd charge which is a big deal, Frost DK loses some burst in arena every minute. What does it matter? Well, Frost DK is the worst spec in arena because of that lack of consistent burst, lack of consistent kill pressure. Not to mention it’s super clunky to press Chains of Ice in the middle of a BoS rotation, Chains of Ice is giganerfed in pvp to be useless in the first place. My idea here is to swap the Cold Heart and Empower Rune Weapon node, also to reduce the nodes Improved Obliterate and Improved Rime to be 1 point nodes. It will be more in line with Unholy and will also offer more opportunity for stronger builds for Frost, I am not a PvEer but I have heard the same sentiment from PvE players that Frost would be easier to build with 2 extra points.

I can’t wait to test Frost on Beta but I feel like these are some pretty big things about the spec right now. Especially on it having 2 more 2point nodes than Unholy allowing for less freedom when building the spec.

3 Likes

I can tell from beta: latest build still not on there, and on ptr it’s like you said. With to more points it would be much “smoother” especially with the fact, the your Glacial Advance does not count for Icecap, you get a km-procc change increase for Froststrike, but not Glacial advance, the point for Froststrike to consume 5 stacks of the weaponstacks(sry for forgetting the name here) doesn’t work for Glacial Advance (so pretty much useless in AOE)
and still no 4 PCs from S4 SL.
IF these points would come, then frost would play very smooth and maybe even viable in pvp (don’t know for sure, I don’t play pvp very often)

i entirly agree “Might of the frozen wastes” should be base line as it is in SL to bring DW and 2 hander closer to each other, since your just spending a point to get your normal damage back. i also agree on the switch of “Empowered rune weapon” to where “cold heart” is as it feels bad to path through a node you might not want for somthing that is so iconic to the spec.

2 Likes

So my thoughts after playing a bit more with the talent calculator:

Might of the frozen wastes-just make it baseline.

Bonegrinder- cut the first stage, the second is enough, don’t need 2points.
Same with Cold-Blooded Rage

Switch Empower Rune Weapon with Cold Heart

Frostreaper- just why, add it to Killing Machine passive

An lastly: to “solve” one part of the difference between 2H OB and DW BoS ether dump dual wield or give might of the frozen wastes the possibility to use 2 Runes.

2 Likes

Looking at the new talents and have some thoughts:

Like everyone else here I think we have too many 2 point talents and Might of the frozen wastes really should be baseline

Shattering strike - this ability is great in theory but it has anti-synergy with literally our entire kit, if I am bursting with obliterate I have to frost strike obliterate frost strike obliterate - shattering strikes will then eat my stacks of razor ice causing my obliterate to deal 15% less damage, this is in real terms a damage nerf not a damage buff and we have to take it to get frostwyrm freeze

1 Like

If i compare this to the arms tree it is woeful

it will depend on if the RI stacks are still applied from those FS hits other wise it will consume 5 and give either 1 or 2 stacks when you use FS

Still taking away damage for a small boost to 1 FS, I just don’t think it feels good and it has anti-synergy AND it locks you into using razorice

Not necessarily, you have avalanche and Glacial Advance, bot apply RI-Stacks

In theory yes but when bursting I was doing one obliterate at 2 stacks then 5 stocks then 2 stacks then 5 stacks

My suggestions are still valid because some talents still do not bring anything at all and for many years, and still some are very weak for many years - I look at you Gargo.
Just remove unwanted talents, or combine several into one, eg Pestilence combine with Defile.
The current changes in the distribution of talents in the tree mean that you can’t really build any bulid focused on pets, diseases,wounds or strikes.
There is nothing useful and, above all, cool to get out of it.
if I create a build, each time I feel that I lack one talent to give away.

https://docdro.id/B1mx5iG

https://pasteboard.co/oljAOKlcj2QM.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/ILbW2SY46P6A.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/sBKLp6UWhqge.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/7J3wv8517adq.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/iBaxb6wWjwor.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/Nv7DkHIEug97.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/IYFoL7sJEveA.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/PNVVSv6sEwtc.jpg
https://pasteboard.co/mTcxMrtbKM7t.jpg

the entire thread is here

Other big post

Ok it’s my suggestion for Unholy tree after the tests in ptr.
!!!
The most important step to take is to change the wound generation from 2-3 wounds to 3 wounds for Festering Strike permanently.
!!!
Merge Festering Strike talent with Feasting Strike
or
Merge Festering Strike with Replenishing Wounds
Merge Defile with Pestilence and Pestilence Pustules
Runic Mastery needs a connection to CS/Plaguebringer
Apocalypse move up, between Outbreak and Dark Transformation
All Will Serve replace for Vision of Perfection.
Army of the Dead move up higher in place of Apocalypse where actually is now and Army of the Damnd immediately below
Ruptured Viscera move to another place and buff it
Magus of the Dead same
Put Reanimated Shambler from Shadowlands in that place - it works much better than those two skills.
Unholy Blight is in the wrong place
Death Rot is in the wrong place
Plaguebearer - remove cost RP or better - merge with Unholy Blight, and set 45s cd.
You can apply two talents of your choice and Plaguebearer as an upgrade for Unholy Blight.

You have to thin the sides of the talent tree, it can thicken the middle in a straight line, but there is generally too much talent right in the middle, so I suggested moving Apocalypse higher.
I still think that you should take some interesting solutions from my talent tree, you can find everything at the link above.
Also give us a good alternative for Army of the Dead.

UPDATE
You can improve (and even should) Rune of Apocalypse by meaningful boost or boost + tuning, adding a few passive abilities to the effect, such as:

  • Vision of Perfection
  • Ruptured Viscera
  • Magus of the Dead
    or
  • Reanimated Shambler

Death Rot - should also refresh the disease by 2-3s

Supertrain - should be moved to the main tree for DK in place of Empower Rune Weapon (in the current situation it should remain available only for DK Frost).
A new talent for Soul Reaper should appear here, giving it an additional effect.

  • eg Soul Reaper also applies Crypt Fever
    or
  • causes all wounds to explode on the target
    or
  • explodes after 3s
    or
  • the additional explosion deals damage to all enemies within 5 or 8 yards
    or
  • adds one extra charge and regenerates one rune
    etc etc…

UPDATE 2
I strongly recommend changing the mechanics of the Gargoyle, i.e. changing the consumption/spend of runic power to burst wounds, like Lesson of Razuvious ( 3-6 wounds or 1-5, 1-6, other).
pumping damage over time through the Death Coil is a unique mechanic for the Dark Arbiter - not for the Gargoyle.
Throughout the SL expansion, we received a similar interaction by using runic power to increase our pet’s damage, increase its buff time (Eternal Agony inf Dragonflight), and increase the number of its attacks.
So there is no point in implementing a similar mechanics in the very idea, in the very concept also for the Gargoyle - let’s leave it for our main pet.
We need good mechanics for the Gargoyle so that it is not just a 3-minute CD.

Therefore, I recommend that the Gargoyle causes burst wounds on the target, and for the short duration of its operation, it causes, for example, that the Death Coil would additionally generate one wound on the target per hit. - A beautiful action that additionally introduces a new mini-game in rotation and better scaling for ST and AoE (just select the Bursting Sores talent).
Such a change, however, would require raising the gargoyle’s base damage, roughly to what it did in the WoD expansion.

2 Likes

I have been messing around with unholy talents in the beta to try to make a good single target pet build and I have noticed that the talent Summon Gargoyle doesn’t seem to scale with mastery.
On top of that, the talent it self feels weak, it’s probably due to tuning, and I would like to see it return to it’s glory of the legion days with the Dark Arbiter build, a big 3min burst CD that rewards you for managing ressources properly and does a big chunk of damage.

The Reaping talent could include more things aswell such as gargoyle to amplify the “excecute” type build and make the CD feel more relevant during the execute phases on a boss.
Thanks for listening to the feedback.

1 Like

Here are my 2 cents about the new Frost stuff:

  • Frost has 2 more 2-Point nodes than UH, and it could use those 2 extra points, improved Obliterate and Rime don’t really need the 2 point scaling
  • Cold-Blooded Rage and Icecap could also interact with Glacial Advance, just reduce CBR’s interaction with GA because it hits more targets (maybe it scales down when you 3 or more targets since frost strike with dual wielding hits twice)
  • Obliterate Modifiers (Improved Obliterate, Frigid Executioner, Might of the Frozen Wastes) could also scale Frostscythes damage, so the gap between the two spells isnt too big, i think using Frostscythe on 3 targets is fine
  • Improved Froststrike could also work with other Runic Power spenders, like Glacial Advance and Breath
  • Abomination Limb could also do Shadowfrost Damage so that it scales with frosts mastery, you already did this with Soul Reaper. (Right now Soul Reaper does not Scale with Frosts mastery, but it should because of Shadowfrost Damage in its tooltip)
  • The whole frost tree right now feels a bit restrictive, could use more connections like the unholy tree.

On a more general level:

  • I personally think Improved Killing Machine or Frostreaper as you call it now is a big problem in Frosts kit. Obliterates damage varies so extremely that it hurts the specc more than it gains. From a normal Obliterate hit to a Killing Machine procc it does nearly 4 times the damage with 26% mastery and no other multiplier like the runeforges and Pillar. I usually have no problem with Burst vs Sustain Damage but in Frosts case it feels really bad. And this a problem in PVE and PVP. It might be balanced on a numerical level, since the Killing Machine proccs do so much damage, but it doesn’t feel good to play (I know frost Obliterate wasn’t a thing in Dragonflight, but it was technically playable, just very weak). It also adds a big level of randomness to the specc.
    My solution for this problem would be to remove Frostreaper and maybe bring back Nothing but the Boots from Legion, this buffs both your damage in your Obliteration Windows since you procc Killing Machine so much, and with a normal Crit level for frost you also get something out of the talent while out of CDs.
    And it would also work with Frostscythe.

  • A dual wield alternative to Might of the Frozen Wastes could also be Ambidexterity from Legion, could be choice node with Might.

This is just a personal thing, but i would really like to get back the pre shadowlands Dual Wield Obliterate animation. I just don’t like this my Deathknight doing pirouettes with every Obliterate and Frost Strike. For two handed it is fine since you are swinging a huge heavy weapon and Frost strike has another animation.
Maybe it could be possible with a Glyph.

Other than that i really liked the new stuff for Frost, I’m hyped for more.

3 Likes
  1. For me in a 5-minute fight All Will Serve is about equal to Gargoyle - boring news.
    Summon Gargoyle needs to be heavily buffed and be at the top of our damage - roughly where Frost Fever is. Abomination Limbs also is better for ST and much more better for AoE…
    None of these announcements came true - that is, nothing improved the situation of the Gargoyle. It is so bad that he even loses to All Will Serve, which does not cause any confusion and problems.
    Active play is again no worse than passive (talents + skills)

  2. I do not mind that Frost Fever is stronger than Virulent Plague but it looks bad aesthetically and it should be corrected - it is about cosmetics and specialization theme.

  3. If we choose talents such as: Icy Talons 2/2, Death Rot, Plaguebringer then we have several buffs to track with different timing and diseases and wounds:
    Icy Talons 2/2 - 6s
    Death Rot - 10s
    Plaguebringer - 5s
    I realize that the duration of the buffs varies for a couple of reasons, however it would be nice to standardize so many tracking buffs as far as possible on this aspect.
    This will definitely help in the raid environment, so I suggest extending the duration of the buffs to 10s, or even all buffs to 12s.

  4. Unholy Pact does not work with Eternal Agony - like in Shadowlands…
    each talent that has been upgraded with the additional effect of Dark Transformation should last the same as Dark Transformation, duration 15 seconds for enhancers mislead people and leave insufficiency due to the fact that we have worked out a longer DT duration but only Dark Transformation (without enhanced). Please change it.

  5. I can choose the Army of the Damned talent without choosing Apocalypse - in a way it makes sense, but overall it doesn’t make any sense.

2 Likes

i agree about making things in the general dk tree that do shadow damage to be changes to shadowfrost along with deathcoil as its bace to dk and gives a ranged damage option when you have to break from melee.

i also think that if shattering strike for frost strike needs to be bigger than 60% since its technically a double consumer using RP and RI stack so needs to atleast compensate for the loss of RI on other damage hits, Perhaps around the 100-120% damage buff and perhaps have that scale with the rune forge so making it scale higher with unholy bond general tallent possibly by having the damage be effected by the RI stacks befor they are scrubbed from the target.

2 Likes

Please consider making Abomination’s Limb do Shadowfrost damage instead of shadow, so that it would scale with Frost’s mastery as well. Now that it’s a Death Knight talent instead of a borrowed power, and is no longer tied to a covenant but to the class itself, it really should benefit all 3 specs equally, especially when it’s placed in the general tree.

1 Like

Soon I will write my feelings, what it feels like playing Unholy, is the game satisfying, fun and whether it makes me happy.

UNHOLY BLIGHT
I will come back to the talent of Unholy Blight. This has a lot of potential but is currently a clog and doesn’t fit any build. It doesn’t support our rotation, our CDs, it doesn’t increase our damage significantly. It does nothing for us, other than wasting space in the talent tree.
Unholy Blight is an iconic name, an iconic talent, and it can be in Dragonflight.
Take it to another place.
Lower the CD to 30 seconds or even 20 seconds (then it will help to replace Outberak and gain more space on the skill bar and reduce the number of skills).
From this talent point, lead a connecting node down with a choice of two or even 3 talents (sensation in Dragonflight xD) in one place.
Place 2 or 3 talents here:

  • Improved Unholy Blight. Reduced CD your Unholy Blight to 20s and extends the duration by 6s. (20s if the base cooldown is 45s)
    NOTE: it will help to replace Outbreak, whereas Ebon Fever talent can only increase damage, e.g. by 30% without reducing its duration time.
  • Plaguebearer - Unholy Blight stacks up to 6 times. Also infects wounds on nearby enemies with every stack. 1 min CD.
    NOTE: you can change the name or leave the old one
  • Unholy Blight + Morbidity (Shadowlands version). 45s CD
    NOTE: this would require buffing the pet part.

Plaguebearer
A talent perfect in its design, powerful, useful, solving our greatest problem since the introduction of wounds.
Unfortunately, it has some big drawbacks, which makes it bad to use.

  • The first drawback is a long cooldown of 1.5 minutes.
  • The second drawback is the cost of use
  • The third drawback is that it is another additional talent / skill and another GCD.

Therefore, this talent needs to be combined with the action of Unholy Blight to add depth to our specialization and build direction. Unholy Blight can become a support for three types of games - for wounds and for our pets, because it is already there for diseases.
Each type of game can and should have its own specific cooldown:

  • for pets it can be 45s,
  • for wounds, 1 minute or even 1.5 minutes (although I personally think 45s would be ideal)
  • for diseases 20s CD

These talents create a natural synergy with each other and should work together or work together.
Each of these talents individually is an addition that interferes with rotation and does not contribute much, rather causing the feeling of losing talent points spent.

Please do something with it.

I agree with everyone else here saying death coil and limb should be shadowfrost damage. If death coil is changed to shadowfrost then it gives frost the ability to be more mid range than its allowed to be right now and also allows for more healing with lichborne (which no one did in SL after figuring out it was actually a trap for a reason), limb being a general dk talent should either scale with no mastery or scale with the mastery of all specs. Right now the only mastery it doesnt scale with is frost because frost specifically targets frost damage. My abomination limb (with full heroic gear) ticks for around 3k on beta, it might be a lot to ask for these types of changes but I think it will give frost access to more damage which is always great.

1 Like