Feedback: Delves

Hello everyone, welcome to the start of Delves end game testing on the realm, “These Go To Eleven”!

We’re very excited to have people come in and see what we have in store for our endgame difficulty.

We wanted to start things off with a layout of what we currently have, what we’re planning next, and our goals behind these decisions.

Before Season 1 begins in The War Within players will have access to Tiers 1, 2, and 3 difficulty in delves. We expect players who have been keeping up with the current season will prefer tiers 2 and 3, while newer players will begin in tier 1 before graduating up to 2 and eventually 3 when they gear up.

When Season 1 begins we will open up tiers 4 through 11 along with introducing a few mechanics in tiers 4 and above: seasonal progression, death counters, and Zekvir’s Influence.

Seasonal Progression

Seasonal progress can be obtained from any delve when the season begins. Playing at higher tiers will reward more progress, but players will still be able to complete the season at lower tiers.

We want players to be able to find the difficulty that they enjoy and focus on that without feeling that they need to push higher to complete the seasonal track.

Tiers 9-11 are planned to have a higher difficulty curve as we do not plan on giving out increased power rewards there. They will give out gear at the equivalent of a Tier 8 delve. We’re doing this so we can tune these delves to be particularly difficult without creating the assumption that all players should strive to hit tier 11.

Death Counter

In Tiers 4 and above players will start with a pool of lives. When you release after dying the counter will lower. Players who reach zero lives can still finish delves, but they will miss out on bonus rewards like cosmetics and unlocking the next tier of difficulty. Every death that happens after you reach zero lives while fighting a boss will grant players a small buff to help them with the final boss fight.

Our goal with the death counter is to give players a barometer to measure their success in a delve without being overly penalizing.

Zekvir’s Influence

We have our mysterious 13th delve that we will not be releasing to test during the beta. This includes its inhabitant, Zekvir, the Hand of the Harbinger. However, Zekvir will prove to be a threat throughout delves even if he isn’t physically there.

Random groups of enemies will receive various boons from Zekvir. As you go higher in tiers, more groups will be chosen and the boons will increase in their difficulty. Players who are able to defeat these empowered groups will earn increased seasonal progress at the end of the delve.

Our design behind Zekvir’s Influence is to add more challenges in higher tiers beyond, “number go up”. We want to differentiate this from the affix system in Mythic +, which is why this only impacts some groups in a delve as opposed to all of them.

What’s Next?

On the realm, “These Go To Eleven”, you’ll find a helpful Zandelvari in Stormwind and Orgrimmar who will port you to specific delves. You can also unlock all of Brann Bronzebeard’s curios at rank 1 and set his level to be 10.

Our immediate plans for the beta update after this will be improving the messaging of Zekvir’s Influence, both from who is being impacted by it and how much I am being rewarded for this. We are actively working on this, so expect some more fun things in next week’s update for this.

There will be ongoing balance tuning for the classes and Brann’s abilities as well. Are some tiers too hard for a class? Is tier 11 too easy? Let’s find out!

We’re looking forward to everyone’s feedback. Welcome to the endgame of Delves!

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After trying fungal folly I had to just alt + f4 out of there.

Dispersing the mushrooms take obnoxiously long time to get it done. It was just way too much for me, you stand there clicking them for ages while having to avoid aoes as well. And you have to disperse 5 of them, I got the first one to like 50% and then I just pressed alt + f4.

This really needs to be faster. It’s not hard, it just takes way too long.

If they’re like this when it goes retail, I’ll make sure to not ever touch that delve at all.

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Where do Bountiful Delves fit in? I tried a couple today, and they seemed harder than a normal delve at the same Tier. Where should we expect their difficulty to fall?

I finished only 1 of them due to bugs and tuning, so I’m not sure if my assessment that they are harder or not is even true, but seems important to have some confirmation on that either way.

As to feedback:

I like Delves so far, but it is split between Delves without movement restrictions/demands and those with them.

I already disliked the ones with the Candlelight circle that grows smaller, the windbuff that grows smaller that prevents an acid debuff, and the one underwater, where you have bubbles of air in various places.

I cheesed the last one, cause Warlock with Underwater breathing, but I can see that one being an annoyance too, where you have to constantly be aware of and in range of air bubbles. But the other 2 were legit frustrating even at tier 1 and 2. I want to explore and look around, and that seemed impossible. And I don;t see how that gets better with tuning either, since you either do the thing, or it’s so non-restrictive that you might as well not have the mechanic. So I’m going to assume it is here to stay and be annoying, but these Delves are definitely unfavored compared to the ones that do not restrict you in movement. Let me explore, there’s treasure out there!

I want to talk about Brann too. He’s been an okay companion, but the AI behind it can use help in places. For one, he has an annoying tendency to try and be behind the enemy it seems, or at least not straight in front of them, which means he wanders into other mobs on occasion. I had 1 pull where he kept getting knocked back, and pulled more and more and mroe mobs, that all went after me eventually. The other annoyance is his tendency to just drop his healing campfire when he feels like, which is more often then not either not when I need it, or he drops it in a spot where it can;t be used, or will get interrupted soon after due to close proximity of oncoming pathing mobs. In one delve he not once, but twice dropped a campfire on a rise I had just jumped off of. Brann, pls.

Again, I have enjoyed the Delves so far as a whole. I love the exploring, love looking in nooks and crannies for loot bags and chests. Length and difficulty have been alright, when taking tier and gear level into account. There’s a few outliers in terms of mechanics and tuning that seemed too hard (Waterworks and The Dread Pit for instance) but in general things seemed okay. I will say that the Delves during leveling up might have been a tad too easy, or else tuned for far lower gear levels than anyone is likely to have. That is not much of a problem cause you can go to higher tiers, but it will feel weird to do them on Tier 3 at the start of leveling and then have to go backwards as you approach level 80 and hit it.

All in all, good job so far, looking forward to testing them more. (and playing them on live!)

Stopping by again to let you know that we’ve fixed the issue of curios not being awarded properly. If you were previously unable to acquire curios, use the grant option from Zandelvari to properly acquire them.

I want to preface this feedback with the context that, Delves and more solo-possible, world based content is something I’ve been advocating for and hoping would be a bigger focus for several expansions now. So I was very excited.

Was.

Conceptually, and where they fit as an extra source of power progression is still something I’m very keen for. However, the execution is far from anything I would call either enjoyable or fun.

My experience with Delves so far. I did some as I was leveling to 80. I then did some Bountiful delves at Tier 1 cause I was freshly dinged and didn’t have the gear for anything higher. I just now ran the same Delve (the mine one) pushing up to Tier 10 at which point you stopped scaling me in line with the requirements? Not sure if that’s intentional or not, but given its recommended requirements were 624 ilvl and you only scaled me to 610 I couldn’t kill the boss before she killed me and just stopped there.

Main Focus
The reason millions of people love playing WoW is cause you have nailed the combat. People love dungeons because they get to demonstrate mastery of their class. They love raiding for the same reasons. We loved the Mage Tower because it was focused around fighting, and nothing but fighting. The main focus of Delves all have this really obnoxiously annoying mechanic, some less egregious than others. I haven’t experienced the underwater one that someone mentioned above, I imagine if it’s half as bad as they described I would never want to touch that one ever again. You spend 60% of your time clicking on things or rescuing things or opening things. And the other 40% you spend fighting 2 or 3 mobs at a time. It’s… just boring. It’s not exciting. It’s not engaging. It’s dull, and I’m genuinely sad about that because I was really REALLY looking forward to something that could mean I don’t have to do M+ again (I don’t like playing in groups of strangers). But I’d rather endure the possibility of a toxic M+ group, to get to at least enjoy the excellent combat than do Delves in any serious manner. It could be my incorrect expectations of what Delves were going to be, I was under the impression they were going to be these role-agnostic little dungeons that you can do solo. You actually have already nailed this, just playing WoW: Remix and going through all the Scenarios, a lot of those have all the makings that you need for Delves.

RNG
The buffs you find in the Delves completely ruin the experience. If you get the huge 66% HP + Haste buff alongside the big shield and the lightning in a bottle, then the last boss is nothing. Find none of them? Better luck next time. How does that make me feel good? Did I play well? Yes. Did I lose? Yes, because you didn’t get the good buffs.

Brann
I’ve tried Brann as a healer alongside my DPS Evoker, and as a DPS alongside my DH tank. As a healer, I barely notice it at times. When he’s launching his potions out like a mad chemist, some of which he launches miles behind me in the opposite direction that you’re running. But picking one up heals me for 1/18th of my health… it barely moves the needle! And this was with him at level 12. So unless your intention is that actually you’re supposed to grind him up to have 30 ranks of +5% healing before he’s really up to snuff, and that’s why I’m not seeing the power of him? Well, if the above isn’t fixed, I definitely won’t be investing enough time to get that far.

Role Disparity
The difference between doing it on a class/spec that has decent sustain (VDH) and a class that really doesn’t (Devoker), is two completely different experiences. I did the exact same Delve on the exact same Tier. First on my Devoker, then on my VDH. I quite literally walked through it on the VDH, pulling multiple packs at once. The Devoker I have to take each pack of 3 at a time and hope to god that Brann throws me a helpful heal or that I get a decent buff along the way. This problem comes about when you approach combat like you do in a dungeon or a raid. If you’re giving people the possibility to play solo, you have to approach it completely differently. You can’t just have mobs that wail on you, taking off 10-15% of your hp with every swing. Multiple casters who all need interrupting. It needs to be danger that can be avoided through positioning and use of mechanics. Take some lessons from Mage Tower here.

Rewards
I won’t worry too much about the rewards, because I’m not entirely sure you’ve fully implemented them yet, but as it stands right now Delves don’t feel rewarding in the slightest. The XP given from doing them while leveling also means I won’t touch them at all until level 80. 1 Delve gave me the same XP as a quest, and took 3 or 4 times longer.

Conclusion
This is just one persons experience and one persons opinion obviously, others might have a different view. But I think you need to go back to the drawing board and start again, because doing 13 really annoying Delves, 11 times each… fills me with dread, and no longer the excitement I was filled with when you announced them at Blizzcon.

2 Likes

Some more feedback:

You need to either queue us right into the delves or stop us from getting teleported around the delves, half the time I don’t even make it into the delve because of the ping and the teleport thing for being in a danger zone sends me back to stormwind.

I did most of the available Delves all the way to difficulty 11 (solo on a BM hunter with 4P, trinkets and pvp gear although that doesn’t matter since we’re scaled to ilvl 610), overall it wasn’t an enjoyable experience and I cannot see myself doing that more than the required minimum once it goes live.

Design
Most of the Delves were straight up just annoying to play in.
The objectives aren’t interesting or fun.
The layouts are really limiting and all sort of feel the same.
Some aspects of them like candle, air bubbles, etc are just limiting for no reason. Oh you play a kitting spec? Well good luck running a delve where you’re actively punished for running.

Instead of having something fun, weird, crazy we get the same old ultra punishing formula that didn’t work in many previous attempts at such content. Sad to see.

Scaling
Ok seriously, what is going on here? You didn’t tell us where the difficulty was intended to be for each level but surely what we’re testing now isn’t intended?
We’re scaled to ilvl 610 which does leave quite some room for improvement but me and my pets were getting 1-2 shot by melee or spammed casts. Some of the minibosses are straight up impossible as a BM hunter since they instantly kill your pets before you can heal or react. And they’re immune to all forms of CC so have fun finding creative ways to deal with them :+1:
Edit: for some reason the end boss was always doing far less damage and taking far more damage than the rest of the dungeon.

Length
They felt too long, all of them. This is obviously compounded by the current scaling.

Rewards
Very early to really give feedback on that part but I noticed they were all giving 2 Wyrm crests (win or fail) which seems EXTREMELY low for something that can take as long as a M+ dungeon.

Skittering Breach
I wanted to give specific feedback about this delve. This is the worst one by a million light years.
Overtuned mobs. Big elites patrols. Constant bombardment of webs right where you are standing massively restricting your movement during battle and making recovery after battle a massive pain. Mobs that chain grip you in a pack you’re not in combat with, instantly killing you.

4 Likes

The Dread Pit

Skardyn Lure should be shorter time. By half. It doesnt work in combat anyway. Just a waste of time.

The mobs have a weird agro range. They attacked me when I was very far away from the group.

Brann Bronzebeard is not following me good enough in delve design. When i pull mobs back to not pull the dwarves he doesnt follow and the pulls the dwarves.

For lower tiers, the dwarf group together with the bat just next to last boss is dfefinately NOT recommended.

I tried delves with the “starting gear” we got and then also with fully geared (bought the tier sets, borrowed power trinkets rings etc)

We are scaled but we see a HUGE difference between type of gear. That said, I think you need to take that in consideration since it will take a while before we will get 4 set, good trinkets etc.

After running every delve up to tier 8 with a mage.
1st
Many packs, mobs, entire delves are nightmarish with a class without selfsustain, many mobs have shadowsteps, teleports, pull-ins, and several casters and rangeds with unavoidable damage. All these damage vents took 10-30% off of my health pool. Mages don’t have heals, I have to cycle through every defensive I have on each pack sometimes each mob while praying that they die before I do. Less and smaller unavoidable damage more avoidable, but even harder hitting damage is needed if it is supposed to be soloable.
2nd
The variety is great, but every underwater delve has to die in a very agonising way. The Breath mechanic is beyond annoying, mobs aggroing from above you outside the range of the camera and killing you is very annoying. knock-up effects don’t work as the mobs just continue swimming a few yards higher and a ton of pathing, evading bugs.
3rd
The mobs are unbalanced the Inquisitors are annoying but for the unavoidable damage done by the shielded mobs not a large problem, but can cause several wipes. Kobyss Spearfishers are beyond annoyxying the pull-in from 45+ yards cause several extra pulls, and even 1 extra mob is death usually, not to mention messing up the casts.
But the one that needs to go down in flames is the Kobyss trickster, shadowstepping with a clone both hitting fr 30-40% of my entire healthpool, while losing target, I had to go for every trickster with full dps and defensive cooldowns, and even so several single Tricksters killed me by themselves without any other mobs.

Delves on lower tiers are way to hard.

Delves on lower tiers (3-5) should be more about having a good time doing them without thinking to much about the mechanics.

The casters in delves do way to much dmg and need adjustment.

When I did lower delves (3-5) it was very hard to stay alive when attacking groups of even 3 mobs.

Delves on same tier diffeculty varies to much in difficulty between them. This will lead to that players will figure out and spread the words on what delves will be easier and harder which will lead to that we will only have a small portion of delves to actually do. Instead of having a smörgåsbord of delves we will be forced to always pick the untasty sandwhich since that is the easiest.

We are working on fixing an issue that’s preventing groups from entering a delve together. This will be fixed in an upcoming build.

Hi everyone!

Thank you so much for the great feedback so far. We are looking at improving Brann’s survivability and usefulness throughout the delves. It is also a bug that enemies respawn. Aside from some exceptions, once something is dead in a delve it should stay dead. We’ll also be reviewing tuning for different classes, along with improvements to the pain points that have been mentioned here within certain scenarios.

Thanks again, and please keep the feedback coming!

Ah yes, the Kobyss Trickster, I should have left feedback on that one too. SUPER annoying mob. I did the Delve where I met them on Tier 1, and even then they were a PROBLEM.

Not only do they spawn a copy of themselves and de-target, that process also seemed to remove my Afflcition DoTs, which meant I had to start over again, but now with 2 mobs.

I did not die to them, but they were the biggest problem mob I met in Delves during leveling, and one of very few mobs that actually cause me to keep an eye on my health., because the copy minion goes straight for me, instead of my voidwalker, at first.

I can only imagine how bad they are on anything above tier 1 while leveling.

The Sinkhole version when Levathian caller (the end boss dude) jumps around. He jumps around little wierd and into walls and stuff. Gets bugged out.

update - he doesnt take dmg when reaching 48% health.

I did run most delves on Tier 8 & Tier 11. All these runs were done with a Havoc DH with the Aldrachi Reaver hero talent (ilvl doesn’t matter as it’s scaled to the current level). Tier 8 feels fine, while Tier 11 is much harder ofc, however I found that there is a duo void guy which does crazy damage. Overall some of the elite mobs does have CRAZY auto attack damage & the most casters have crazy damage. Even if you have a lot of stuns/fast kicks, I think it’s still overtuned by like 20-30%. As I had like 5.1m HP, each cast was 950-1250k damage (same with melee attacks).

SUGGESTIONS

  • NPC Reno Jackson: ALL ELITES SHOULD BE TUNED LIKE THIS GUY. I encountered him in The Waterworks tier 11, damage & everything was completely fine.

DELVE PROBLEMS

Basic (so applied to all delves)

  • NPC/SPELL Treasure Wraith: Void bolt does 1.9m damage/cast which is a bit high. Also, the chest can be damaged meanwhile with aoe abilities & keeps a combatbug up.
  • NPC/SPELL Kas’dru: Sits on a spider which deals moderate damage, but Kas’dru has crazy damage. Venom Volley which applies a dot does tick 800k every 2 sec for 12 sec.
  • OBJECT: Gold objects are giving 1 copper at the end.
  • NPC AFFIX?: The big guy that appears to grip you in is not linked to the packs correctly. Sometimes what it does is simply nothing & as the pack dies, the guy goes away.
  • NPC Venombite: Does 2100k melee attack/swing + the mob on it does 500-1500k.
  • OTHER Leaving the delve is not teleporting the player out from the instance.

Fungal’s Folly

  • NPC Carniverous Lasher: feels like too easy & they have 2m hp
  • NPC/SPELL Sporbit: sometimes it just casts infinitely without doing anything
  • OBJECT Construct Canker: There is a shroom that gives some damage until you fall below 50% HP. The glowing effect of the mushroom from the ground doesn’t fade away once you collected it.
  • NPC Anub’vir & it’s gang: Spawned at the right at the end of the delve (2nd floor, before last boss), mobs were constantly evading except the big rare.
  • Buggy rare spawn whenever we reach the end of the delve. As you ascend “to the upper level” there is always a rare at the left/right. At the right, it’s a bit close & as thexy patrol, you instantly pull them which is meh.

Kriegval’s Rest

  • 2nd bigger room which has a rare spawned in it, the rare mob randomly goes into the text.
  • NPC Mobpack be4 the last boss: Felt crazy hard, I had 15000k healing done by the end of the pack thanks to all the souls & everything else. Don’t think any other DPS spec can do this much healing, which makes the pack a bit unkillable (except if you CC properly).
  • NPC Tomb-Raider Drywhisker: Without having the potion buff, the boss simply does oneshot you as you can’t do anything once the boss does the grip mechanic.

Earthcrawl Mines

  • NPC Lamplighter Rathling: Moves a little bit in the air (like 2-3 yards away from the ground). Wrong pathing a bit.
  • ITEM Flamethrower Torch: It’s just too OP & makes the delve too easy.
  • NPC Web General Ab’enar: Just ran at the middle of the floor, did stop & nothing happened. Continued the fight afterwards.

The Dread Pit

  • ITEM Skardyn Lure: The CC of the dwarfs should be either longer or atleast there should be a buff/debuff on them above how much time is left on the CC. Currently I just spend like 30 secs in the pack, if I din’t kill them fast enough they bumbum me. By the time, the delve changed back to the memory gem thingy.
  • NPC Nerubian Lord: Hits like a truck, samne as other elites, bit too much damage.
  • OBJECT Gem Hoarder kills: Without doing anything, I already had 2/3 gem hoarders killed. I didn’t kill any Gem Hoarders before the new “quest” popped up.

The Waterworks

  • Didn’t find any problems other than the last boss.
  • NPC Waxface: Boss is very hard to be killed as everything does crazy damage.

The Sinkhole

  • SPELL Corrosive Bile: 1.3m crit damage is a bit hard.

POWER PROBLEMS

  • Lucky Cursed Potion: Too OP & whenever you get this, you are most likely guaranteed to finish the delve without any problems. Also it’s buggy as the potion doesn’t fall off once I got below 66% HP. To be honest, if this potion spawns in all delve runs, the above high damage stuff simply doesn’t matter as you get giga powered until you have the potion. However, if you
  • Lightning Bottle: Too OP & does crazy damage.

I didn’t go any further as the problem is same everywhere else mostly. Mobs hit like a truck & has to be scaled or the RNG potions needs to be nerfed/removed to be able to say anything about this stuff.

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Running the Fungal Folly on a tank character (Protection paladin) I felt that the pacing of the delve felt overly slow with adds taking far too long to die. The run also felt quite sparse in terms of enemies.

Overall I’d have liked to have seen more adds but with lower health - this would have served to make the run feel faster paced and thus more exciting.

I felt the run did offer a decent challenge (I did feel in danger a couple of times) . That said unless the damage was tuned up as I was on a tank I do suspect it could be excessively difficult on some DPS classes with low self sustain.

The telegraphing of the ground hazards from the mushrooms I had to dispell(2) was very inconsistent with some very clear (green on dark brown) but others almost invisible (green hidden within green ground clutter).

Hi Blizzard, Hi Linxy, First time Beta Tester here. So this is like the first time I give my opinion on the forum :slight_smile:

Delves can be a great addition to WoW, as it fast, quick, gives EXP, loot and more. It is also fun, can be done solo (or in group as I’ve heard).

When I first did my first Delve everything was okay, it was fun, the damage and the the pace of the Delve felt great! I understood the mechanics, found treasure and it was generally enjoyable.

However once I reached 78-80 this is where things got trickier.
As I progressed through the Campaign quests my character felt harder and harder.
The level of the enemies where still the same, but my item level did not really match it even though I was between ilvl 525-540.

In order for me to just stay alive I had to use most of my defensive spells, and that wasn’t always enough and I died.

At ilvl 558-565 I still feel either under geared or the monsters overpowered when entering in a level 3 Delve, or in general.

Brann feels useless on the DPS spec as he barely do any damage, plus when he reaches level 3 and you unlock the curious, I cannot select it.

I think more upgrades (like in Torghast) would help and a vendor that you can buy upgrades that you can find in chests and rares. :slight_smile:

1 Like