FEEDBACK: Demon Hunter Class Changes

Updated August 19

This week’s build brings a complete set of level rewards for the post-50 Demon Hunter, including the addition of popular spells Furious Gaze and Revel in Pain.

Havoc has also had a few changes to its talent tree to address Nemesis. Nemesis was intended to be a strong single target sustained option, but it hasn’t proven popular among players. We’re reshuffling the tree a bit, bringing a buffed-up version of Fel Barrage down to the level 50 row and adding a new AoE Fury spender, Glaive Tempest, to the level 30 row.

This creates more interesting choices in the rows on the complexity and payoff you want in your damage rotation. Please give them a try and let us know what you think!


July 8

In the next Alpha build, we’ve made this change to Unbound Chaos:

  • Activating Immolation Aura will cause your inner demon to slam into nearby enemies at the end of your next Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.
    • Developers’ notes: We like the feeling of Immolation Aura empowering your Fel Rush, but requiring Fel Rush to be cast while Immolation Aura was active placed too much pressure on that particular window. We want this talent to be for occasionally weaving Fel Rush into your rotation for a big payoff, so we’ve changed the talent to Immolation Aura buffing your next Fel Rush, which means you can find the right time to fit it in.

July 1
Fair tidings Illidari. The next build of the Shadowlands Alpha will have a number of changes based on your feedback. We’re generally happy with the core kit of both Demon Hunter specializations, but want to improve talent diversity.

Havoc

  • Demonic Appetite - Consuming a soul fragment no longer reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam.

  • Cycle of Hatred - When Chaos Strike refunds Fury, it will reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam (was Metamorphosis) .

    • Developers’ notes: We’ve reconsidered the addition of Eye Beam cooldown reduction to Demonic Appetite, believing it will make that talent a dominant choice in the row. Instead, we’re placing that benefit on Cycle of Hatred, which is competing against other options for AOE damage.
  • Insatiable Hunger: Demon’s Bite deals 20% more damage and generates 5 to 10 additional Fury.

    • Developers’ notes: Since this ability only increased the maximum additional Fury that Demon’s Bite could generate, it was possible to frequently see no noticeable benefit. The talent will now always result in at least 5 extra Fury generated.
  • Immolation Aura now generates 20 Fury when cast.

  • Burning Hatred: Immolation now generates an additional 60 Fury over 12 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: We added Immolation Aura back to Havoc baseline because it was a nice mid-tier AOE damage ability that could be shared across the specs. Player feedback made it clear that Fury generation was an important part of the ability, so we moved the initial burst of Fury to the main ability. The Fury generation over time will remain in the talent.
  • Fel Mastery has been replaced with a new talent, Unbound Chaos.

  • Unbound Chaos: While Immolation Aura is active, your inner demon slams into nearby enemies at the end of your Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.

    • Developers’ notes: Fel Mastery was a simple buff to Fel Rush damage that required frequent reorientation to your target and as a result primarily saw play alongside Momentum. By binding the damage bonus to Immolation Aura, we feel like the talent can be taken on its own or alongside Momentum.

Vengeance

  • Immolation Aura and Fiery Brand tooltips were changed to show the total amount of damage done over the duration of the spell.

  • Soul Cleave damage increased 20%.

    • Developers’ notes: We often see feedback that Soul Cleave is a low priority button because the passive consumption of soul fragments means no healing is lost if it isn’t pressed, and Spirit Bomb offers more damage and healing per soul fragment. We made a change already that adds additional healing to Soul Cleave for each orb consumed, but also we’re increasing the damage of Soul Cleave as well. We’d like to see Spirit Bomb used intermittently to apply Frailty, but Soul Cleave to be the spec’s primary source of healing and damage.
  • Agonizing Flame no longer increases the damage of Immolation Aura. It now increases its duration by 50%.

    • Developers’ notes: Increasing the duration of Immolation Aura increases the value of the talent’s movement speed buff and creates synergy with other talents like Infernal Armor and the re-design of Charred Flesh mentioned below.
  • Feast of Souls healing increased by 25%.

    • Developers’ notes: This talent is intentionally straightforward, offering an option that makes Vengeance’s primary consumer Soul Cleave better. It’s a fine option, but may need additional tuning to close the gap with the more active options in the row.
  • Charred Flesh has been redesigned: Immolation Aura damage now increases the duration of your Fiery Brand by 0.5 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: Fire damage alone was not an attractive option when compared to the other options in the row. This interaction with Immolation Aura can significantly increase the uptime of a key defensive ability while also increasing its overall damage. This creates interesting synergies with anything that modifies Fiery Brand or Immolation Aura such as the talents Agonizing Flames and Burning Alive.

Please continue to reply with your thoughts on Demon Hunters in Shadowlands!

In this thread, we’re discussing Demon Hunter class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!

1 Like

Hello,

I would have posted this feedback in the US forums but I am not able to post there because of not having a US character.

I am mostly iterating what has been said and posted before on different platforms. By now I have played through Bastion and Revendreth and the most notable thing playing Havoc DH right now is that it doesn’t feel that different than in BFA.

I like that Chaotic Transformation has been baked into Meta. I am still running Demonic Appetite though because otherwise I felt totally fury starved.

The most questionable change though as stated by many other players is Immolation Aura’s Fury generation being a talent called Burning Hatred. Why make Immolation Aura baseline but the defining Feature is still a talent? There is nothing gained from changing it this way. It is still a talent slot spent.

I know that class design in Shadowlands so far is centered around unpruning abilities and the Demon Hunter having basically only his artifact ability stripped doesn’t leave much to unprune.

But I expected a bit more change, a bit more variation, something that indicates development of the class. So far though I cannot see any change that would really warrant calling it “Evolution” or “Development”.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel it is bad. It is just massively underwhelming picking up a DH coming from BFA. I hoped for more.

7 Likes

Demonic Bite was already borderline OP and with the change of Eyes of Rage being baked in I would say that it’s way better than any last row talents that Havoc has.

  • Lesser Soul Fragments heal for 5% of the DH health.
  • Absorbing a Lesser Soul Fragment gives 30 Fury.
  • Absorbing a Lesser Soul Fragment reduce the cooldown of Eyes by 2 sec down to 15 seconds.

Combined with the Demonic Talent this makes Havoc FAR too survivable as they have a 5% Leech that turns into a 25% one faster than normal due to the effect of Demonic Appetite.

It’s also a first row talent that does three things. It’s the only talent that Havoc has that does three things at the same time. Taking another Talent than this in its current form will lower your performance immensely.

What I suggest it that Lesser Soul Fragments no longer heal as even with the other two functions of it, Demonic Bite is still a good Talent and the others are more competitive.

It would also stop making Havoc effectively immortal in PvP if they’re lucky with their Demonic Bite procs.

After a bit of thinking I think that Demonic Appetite should be changed to:

  • Chaos Strike has a 30% chance to generate 20 Fury and lower the remaining cooldown of Eye Beam by 2 seconds up to 15 seconds in total.
    Rename it to Infusion or something like that in that case.

Sure DH have to get the Fragments actively and they can solve this by shimmying on the spot. This creates a huge problem in PvP as it means that the DH can also just let them sit around, if that’s possible, and then gather them for a huge heal and Fury bar burst.

Addendum:

I just did a 4-Mask Org. My Eye Beam did 7.81m damage while my Demon’s Bite did 980k damage over the entire run.

With Demonic Appetite getting the Eyes of Rage functionality baked into Demonic Bite there’s no way that Blind Fury and Felbite can even come close to having the same effect as Demonic Appetite.

Demonic Appetite is a t1 Talent that’s better than one of the t7 ones. This insane. Demonic Bite is WAY too good in the current SL incarnation.

Fair tidings Illidari. The next build of the Shadowlands Alpha will have a number of changes based on your feedback. We’re generally happy with the core kit of both Demon Hunter specializations, but want to improve talent diversity.

Havoc

  • Demonic Appetite - Consuming a soul fragment no longer reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam.

  • Cycle of Hatred - When Chaos Strike refunds Fury, it will reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam (was Metamorphosis) .

    • Developers’ notes: We’ve reconsidered the addition of Eye Beam cooldown reduction to Demonic Appetite, believing it will make that talent a dominant choice in the row. Instead, we’re placing that benefit on Cycle of Hatred, which is competing against other options for AOE damage.
  • Insatiable Hunger: Demon’s Bite deals 20% more damage and generates 5 to 10 additional Fury.

    • Developers’ notes: Since this ability only increased the maximum additional Fury that Demon’s Bite could generate, it was possible to frequently see no noticeable benefit. The talent will now always result in at least 5 extra Fury generated.
  • Immolation Aura now generates 20 Fury when cast.

  • Burning Hatred: Immolation now generates an additional 60 Fury over 12 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: We added Immolation Aura back to Havoc baseline because it was a nice mid-tier AOE damage ability that could be shared across the specs. Player feedback made it clear that Fury generation was an important part of the ability, so we moved the initial burst of Fury to the main ability. The Fury generation over time will remain in the talent.
  • Fel Mastery has been replaced with a new talent, Unbound Chaos.

  • Unbound Chaos: While Immolation Aura is active, your inner demon slams into nearby enemies at the end of your Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.

    • Developers’ notes: Fel Mastery was a simple buff to Fel Rush damage that required frequent reorientation to your target and as a result primarily saw play alongside Momentum. By binding the damage bonus to Immolation Aura, we feel like the talent can be taken on its own or alongside Momentum.

Vengeance

  • Immolation Aura and Fiery Brand tooltips were changed to show the total amount of damage done over the duration of the spell.

  • Soul Cleave damage increased 20%.

    • Developers’ notes: We often see feedback that Soul Cleave is a low priority button because the passive consumption of soul fragments means no healing is lost if it isn’t pressed, and Spirit Bomb offers more damage and healing per soul fragment. We made a change already that adds additional healing to Soul Cleave for each orb consumed, but also we’re increasing the damage of Soul Cleave as well. We’d like to see Spirit Bomb used intermittently to apply Frailty, but Soul Cleave to be the spec’s primary source of healing and damage.
  • Agonizing Flame no longer increases the damage of Immolation Aura. It now increases its duration by 50%.

    • Developers’ notes: Increasing the duration of Immolation Aura increases the value of the talent’s movement speed buff and creates synergy with other talents like Infernal Armor and the re-design of Charred Flesh mentioned below.
  • Feast of Souls healing increased by 25%.

    • Developers’ notes: This talent is intentionally straightforward, offering an option that makes Vengeance’s primary consumer Soul Cleave better. It’s a fine option, but may need additional tuning to close the gap with the more active options in the row.
  • Charred Flesh has been redesigned: Immolation Aura damage now increases the duration of your Fiery Brand by 0.5 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: Fire damage alone was not an attractive option when compared to the other options in the row. This interaction with Immolation Aura can significantly increase the uptime of a key defensive ability while also increasing its overall damage. This creates interesting synergies with anything that modifies Fiery Brand or Immolation Aura such as the talents Agonizing Flames and Burning Alive.

Please continue to reply with your thoughts on Demon Hunters in Shadowlands!

In the next Alpha build, we’ve made this change to Unbound Chaos:

  • Activating Immolation Aura will cause your inner demon to slam into nearby enemies at the end of your next Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.
    • Developers’ notes: We like the feeling of Immolation Aura empowering your Fel Rush, but requiring Fel Rush to be cast while Immolation Aura was active placed too much pressure on that particular window. We want this talent to be for occasionally weaving Fel Rush into your rotation for a big payoff, so we’ve changed the talent to Immolation Aura buffing your next Fel Rush, which means you can find the right time to fit it in.

Vengeance and Fel Devastation with Demonic:
Currently Fel dev feels a bit clunky at 50 fury cost. All the fury generator abilities also generate souls, and all the fury (and soul) spender abilities cost 30 fury. Right now its really awkward to set up 50 fury for fel devastation without overcapping on souls. Reducing Fel devs cost to 40 or 30 would solve this problem, and the ability wouldnt be disruptive to the specs rotation.

Suggestion: without haste the spec feels really really slow. Would you consider adding a baseline hastebuff to the spec, similar how boneshield gives blood dk 10% haste? Something like consuming a soul gives you 10% haste for 5 seconds, would make the specs flow feel a lot better.

2 Likes

The above suggestion to provide a haste buff when consuming a soul would be interesting. I also feel that the spec is a bit slow at the moment and more interaction with souls would be nice!

Baseline Fel Devastation feels great and is an ‘awesome button to press’.

Reducing the cooldown of fel devastation to 30 seconds would also help with some of the clear gaps in active mitigation that plague vengeance compared to other tank specializations.

I think the idea behind a Charred Flesh, agonizing flames & Burning Alive build is really cool but currently the implementation is not there. I think perhaps another way of spreading your fiery brand to multiple targets (for example via fel devastation) or by increasing the speed (1 second?) at which it is spread via the Burning Alive talent.

Another approach is that perhaps the ‘strength’ of fiery brand that spreads to others is reduced and this could give the vengeance DH the ability to choose whether they want a very strong (40%) individual damage reduction or a group wide (perhaps 10% per mob?) when hit the fiery brand target with Fel Devastation.

Bulk Extraction currently feels quite weak but the idea behind the talent is very cool. Reducing the cooldown to 1 minute would make it more competitive, and a fun talent to use in a Fiery Brand build.

2 Likes

DISCLAIMER: I have yet to level to 60 and see the full extent of Legendaries and Conduits, so forgive me if what I am about to post actually holds a late game solution. My feedback strictly reviews the first impression and feel of Havoc and Vengeance fresh from BFA’s frying pan and straight into 50>60 progression with no Azerites, Essences, or Corruptions active.

HAVOC

I feel you are pushing Havoc into a corner that is screaming “Play Fel Rush or bust”. I will not lie to you Blizzard, Demonic was my favourite thing about Legion and BFA, and that’s the core of Demon Hunter as it should be. They’re Demon Hunters after all.

When you took away our artifact weapons in BFA, we felt the significance of the change by no longer having our legendaries and our power. Azerites behaved more like a “cover up” for just how weak this “Elite” class really is, especially compared to Death Knights. Now we have lost our Azerites in Shadowlands, again we start to feel pretty useless and you can certainly forget PvP with this kind of kit.

Demonic didn’t need a nerf or a buff, what we needed was a Momentum and Nemesis buff to compete. But instead of this, you’ve now made the class feel like it’s Momentum or bust.

Making Eyes of Rage (Azerite) a passive effect combined with Chaos Strike’s refund in Cycle of Hatred makes Demonic Appetite feel completely redundant. Cycle of Hatred will probably not be a widely picked talent this patch because it just doesn’t compete with the other two in its tier.

It certainly gives Havocs the option to choose between more Eye Beam and Chaos focus and Blade Dance damage and fury reduction. Essence Break is also a big game changer and I think this is going to see a significant amount of play in Raid bosses in particular. But I believe this was the intention of your talent system in the first place. No SINGLE talent should be the soul answer of a class, or perhaps some could be? (Burning Hatred is still widely considered majority meta in BFA and now SL) but the point is you have given us options to adapt our builds based on the situation, I really like this.

Demonic, yes a lot of Havocs, myself included are feeling this change. But I’m not going to be that dramatic about it. Losing two seconds of Metamorphosis from Eye Beam is not that huge of a deal. You should be chaining your Beams and Meta’s anyhow if you’re experienced with the spec.

Moving back to the unpopular talents further down the post, i’ll get back to the main points of my feedback. These are listed in order of most impacting to least impacting on my experience:

:a: Since losing our Azerite traits, Fury generation has really become a thorn in my side and I just do not feel that my speed or damage are as effective granted a single Chaos Strike costs 40 fury and a Blade Dance 35. This effectively means you can only pull off 3 casts within a full fury bar with the 40% chance of Chaos Strike refunding 20 fury (half of a strike). Not exactly that rewarding given this chance has to proc twice to even make that one extra strike worth it.

Immolation Aura topped with Burning Hatred’s talent will generate 20+60 = 80 Fury over the duration. Enabling an additional +2 Chaos Strikes or Blade Dances.

The problem exists between those moments when you do not get lucky with RNG and your Chaos Strike doesn’t refund, leaving you wasting seconds of your Metamorphosis generating enough Fury to pull off two more Chaos Strikes, praying they both refund so you can maximize damage.

To solve this problem in the past, we had the combination of Eyes of Rage with First Blood and Demonic Appetite. While this Azerite trait is now a passive to Cycle of Hatred, we suffer the loss of a -20 fury cost to Blade Dance, unless we sacrifice Cycle of Hatred for First Blood, effectively giving up our Eye Beam cooldown which is just as important to our cycle.

My point is that -20 fury cost played a bigger role to our fluid combo that made Havoc so fun and energizing to play for speedy Melee DPS like myself. It was the speed and ferocity, the feeling of Demon Hunter that made me want to play it so much. Marksman (my main Hunter class) lacked this sort of feeling because our rotation is generally quite slow with Aimed Shot taking anywhere between 1.8-2.2 seconds per cast. Demon Hunter always made me feel like I was drugged with speed and I loved it so much.

Now this all being said, I understand giving Havoc more power to their Chaos Strike or Blade Dance could destabilize the balance and it also makes their other primary rotational abilities (Demon’s Bite) more redundant. That is why, as listed below, option A is probably the most reasonable change to consider.

Suggested Solutions :dizzy:

:one: - Demon’s Bite generates 30 to 40 Fury. (Increased from 20 to 30 Fury)

  • Insatiable Hunger is a widely unpopular talent through BFA and now Shadowlands too probably, as nobody is going to give up Burning Hatred for an extra 5-10 fury and a tiny bit of damage when they can get a guaranteed +60. Dissolve Insatiable Hunger and buff Demon’s Bite’s fury generation, without boosting the damage.

:two: - Increase the chance that Chaos Strike refunds Fury from 40% to 50% or slightly higher.

:three: - Dissolve the refund chance of Chaos Strike, instead giving it a 40% chance the next Chaos Strike is free on a proc effect. Cycle of Hatred would evolve into:

  • “When Chaos Strike gains a free charge, it also reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam by 3 sec.”

:five: - Metamorphosis in adddition to its current effects, reduces the fury cost of all chaos abilities by 50% for the duration.

:six: - Increase the chance that Demonic Appetite spawns a Lesser Soul Fragment from an enemy.

:seven: - Increase the Fury gained from consuming a Soul Fragment from 30 to 40.

:b: Shattered Souls has a relatively redundant side effect to it which, in Shadowlands and both BFA now especially, wouldn’t see that much use, if none at all.

  • If the Soul Fragment came from a Demon, you will deal 20% increased damage for 15 sec.

EDIT - After forgetting (my bad) Maldraxxus is apparently filled with Demons, I see the reason for this change now. Disregard this suggestion.

My last point of feedback on Havoc would be the other unpopular talents that could yet be changed to see some variation in playstyle. People hate meta, I certainly am one of those people, I like a class that allows me to adapt my skills and the feel to what I need it for at a specific time. That being said:

  • Unbound Chaos - Remove the Fel Rush requirement giving the option to choose between more Chaos damage (appealing to Mastery stackers) and helps the talent meet the bar between Trail of Ruin (very popular) and Fel Barrage (mandatory for heavy AOE situations).
  • Momentum - While I believe this is a great talent and it certainly offers a lot for the mobility of Havoc, but we are generally a very mobile class to begin with and I don’t think more mobility is the right answer. This talent in it’s current state has no real means to compete with Demonic or Nemesis. I believe it needs to be swapped out for something else entirely and I have a suggestion:

Take away the Demonic Origins PvP talent and merge the effects differently. Momentum grants Metamorphosis a passive Fury regeneration rate (further helping with the Fury problems by the way), however it only lasts for 50% of it’s normal duration (15 seconds down from 30). The trade is less demon time for more Fury, meaning a significant boosts in DPS.

This concludes my feedback for Havoc, my next reply being the Vengeance feedback.

1 Like

Continued from my previous post on Havoc feedback and proposed changes, this one will evaluate the state of Vengeance. Again as a disclaimer mentioned before:

I have yet to level to 60 and see the full extent of Legendaries and Conduits, so forgive me if what I am about to post actually holds a late game solution. My feedback strictly reviews the first impression and feel of Havoc and Vengeance fresh from BFA’s frying pan and straight into 50>60 progression with no Azerites, Essences, or Corruptions active.

VENGEANCE

Overall I do enjoy the new changes made to Vengeance and I am relieved to see that really not all that much has changed.

The loss of Gluttony cannot go without mention, this is a serious blow to the Vengeance kit given the advantage it offered, however I notice Blizzard’s new design in Shadowlands has given us a more controlled effect of the former Gluttony. How?

To start with, Gluttony was only a popular decision among Vengeance tanks because it allowed the consumption of Soul Fragments to passively proc Metamorphosis. Metamorphosis is simply a 50% health and 200% armour boost while also generating extra fragments from signature rotation skills.

Breaking down my analysis of Shadowland’s changes, we see that Infernal Armor (tier 3 of the new talent tree) mimics something of a similar effect by granting Immolation Aura a 20% armour boost and a tiny bit of damage. While 20% is certainly not 200%, we have other options to give us that same amount of sustain while not in Metamorphosis.

I will break down the issues I have with each talent tier in order.

TIER 1

  • Agonizing Flames may appear useless at first, but without the presence of Gluttony, the 50% duration bonus to Immolation Aura means an extra 3 seconds (9 in total) holding that bonus 20% armour. Furthermore, it spends 3 seconds less on cooldown before you can spam it again, making it nicely on par with Demon Spikes.

My only suggestion to improve this talent would be to trade the movement bonus for something else such as:

A) Every time Immolation Aura deals damage (which means every tick, not EACH enemy it hits), a fractional amount of Fiery Brand’s cooldown is refunded.

B) Same as A, only it affects Metamorphosis.

TIER 2

  • Fallout remains the missing link in this line. Once the mainstream for Vengeance in BFA, I really don’t think people are going to choose Fallout based on a “chance” to shatter lesser soul fragments. A guaranteed benefit from picking this talent would be more appreciated if nothing else. It has nothing next to Burning Alive (great in AOE situations) or Feast of Souls’ (AOE or Single Target sustain) in value.

TIER 3 - The important one.

Overall I can’t say that much is bad for this line. Infernal Armor is no doubt valuable for Raiding and bosses in particular, while Spirit Bomb would widely be the popular choice for M+ Dungeons and dealing with multiple foes. Charred Flesh has some great synergy with Tier 2’s Burning Alive (empowering the duration of Fiery Brand), but again only sees real use in AOE situations.

My only feedback would be to perhaps buff the armour boost of Infernal Armour to match the power of Spirit Bomb. 40-50% would seem reasonable.

TIER 4

  • Soul Rending feels like the odd one out here. Vengeance I believe should passively gain a stronger Leech bonus than Havoc, as it’s main purpose is tanking. Swapping this out for something new entirely would be the wisest decision. Reason being that nobody is going to exchange Fracture or Feed the Demon for 5% Leech, and 25% additional in a Metamorphosis they can no longer proc often due to the loss of Gluttony.

TIER 5

I have no complaints with this line, I believe the Sigils were in a very good spot in BFA and there’s no reason to fix what isn’t flawed. Tier 5 often being the utility line of any spec especially.

TIER 6

  • Void Reaver holds a similar argument to Tier 4’s Soul Rending. I believe it should be a passive trait to Vengeance Demon Hunters, further making up for the loss of Gluttony by spreading the power to the rotation of the spec rather than relying solely on Metamorphosis to survive.

No feedback for Demonic or Soul Barrier, I believe they are interesting alternatives and offer something unique to the spec.

TIER 7

This is where it gets interesting.

  • Last Resort is going to be the go-to talent on this line every time. I don’t know of a single Vengeance tank that didn’t use this, even in BFA. I see no reason to change it.

  • Ruinous Bulwark does well when Fel Devastation is used appropriately. People should note that Fel Devastation does not abide by the new laws of AOE, meaning it will deal damage to any number of enemies standing in its area of effect cone. Combine this with the effect of the healing, a Demon Hunter should be able to heal a significant portion, if not their entire health bar and more. I like this and it introduces a different style of tank play. Often the trade between Vengeance is mass leeching vs. mass armour padding.

  • Bulk Extraction remains the problematic talent of this tier. In many ways it simply feels like a more powerful Spirit Bomb without the healing effect. Granted, it can generate a fresh 5 fragments instantly from all nearby enemies, however is this really that useful given its 1.5 minute cooldown?

1 Like

After taking time to look over the covenant abilities and upcoming conduit and other systems, I have to take back much of my opinion on Havoc. Blizzard, with respect, you have completely butchered this class to the point of where it’s not even worth me playing anymore. I guess my Illidari is shelved for this expansion unless some serious changes are made.

I don’t know many players who aren’t going to choose Revendreth, for most classes. I don’t know many players who are going to enjoy depending on Momenum or Fel Rush/mobility to deal damage, especially in PvP.

You’re forcing us into a corner, I think you need to take a giant step back, look at BFA, look at what works, look at what people loved and then look at what they loved in Legion. Combine them and we’re happy? We don’t ask for much.

But the way Havoc is going right now, I’m just glad you made Marksman Hunter very good again, so I have something else to play. But I will always miss my Demon Hunter.

I hope my suggestions in my previous posts help you pull things into a better direction, as well as the opinions of others who I know can relate to how we feel.

1 Like

Vengeance Feedback:

The changes to Vengeance DH are largely very welcome ones for me!

There are some things that still seem odd, which is normal for beta but I’d like to give some ideas on them.

Spirit Bomb: A strong spell. Damage wise it is too strong to not pick in both live and beta at the moment. Considering the statement " We’d like to see Spirit Bomb used intermittently to apply Frailty, but Soul Cleave to be the spec’s primary source of healing and damage. " I think the right course here, is to consider making spirit bomb baseline but changing the spell either way.
Make it a CD, applying Frailty and granting a damage reduction to the Demon Hunter, on a 45 Sec CD with a 30% uptime or so. It doesnt have to be a huge CD, but it should give us enough damage reduction to bridge the time between Demon Spikes and Meta uptime. Even with Demonic as a talent our meta uptime is a lot lower than it is currently on live servers, and specifically in higher m+ keys, this becomes an issue.

Demon Spikes: Demon Spikes is a huge active mitigation, however the uptime is horrendous. In Legion we had Oblivions Embrace which made a huge difference and actually “fixed” the issue I am referring to here. Basically DH tank is very often not in control of the damage income. Outside of Meta or DS we can get globalled in content that we outgear heavily. The most logical path for me would be to nerf DS slightly but increase it’s uptime or give us a third charge. Making Feed the Demon baseline can also go a long way here (although that depends on haste rating as well).

Threat generation: This is not news. Vengeance has issues holding threat on multiple targets. I would go as far as to say Havoc holds better threat with random twilight procs. In order to not buff the damage I see a very easy way to implement a fix here. Give Immolation Aura a 200-400% threat bonus. This would also synergize very well with the talent Fallout, giving players a nice mechanic in the form of using Immolation Aura for both maximum HPS value and Threat generation.

EDIT: The Haste bonus whenever consuming a Soulfragment, mentioned by Scyther, is a very good addition, especially for the first raid tier/dungeon season. I assume something like this could be implemented in the Soulbinds if it’s not already in (haven’t seen all of them yet).

Fracture/Shear: Fracture feels a lot better to play than Shear, due to the 2 Fragments vs 1. Fracture could be replacing shear baseline, with 2-3 charges, and an according recharge-timer. I’d say on average you should be able to use 1 Fracture every 2 Globals. So when we fill our GCDs with our available fillers, we get to combo 2 x Fracture into a Soul Cleave, Sigil, Immolation Aura, and then repeat accordingly.
It would be nice to have a more fluent defensive rotation than we currently have on live with Shear (Big heals back to back require 2 Soul Cleaves, if we dont have Immolation Aura ready (Fallout) we require 4 Globals to stabilise our Situation again). While in 8.3 this is fine to deal with, due to insane amounts of haste, Vengeance will suffer immensely by losing all the secondary stats. However, even with large amounts of haste Shear does not feel nearly as fluid as Fracture does.

GCD-wise, Fiery Brand feels a little clunky to play with.

I love playing Vengeance DH and would like to see it be viable without waiting for the last patch this time! :slight_smile:

There is also room for another Sigil or two in my opinion.
It could grant a damage reduction to the party/raid members or reduce the damage the enemies deal (however this is bad against environment damage which already is hard to deal with as Vengeance).

If you took the time to read this, thanks! Take care.

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This is feeback for Havoc spec

Having looked and played a little around the base talent for Shadowland I feel the main issues is the lack of exciting choices between the main defining talents.

Today it seems clear that the main choice resides between demonic and momentum. One is a path that has been nerfed and feel bad to pick, the other is a step back to Legion DH (with a big deja vu)

So I understand the feeling of the DH community: where is the coolness !?
We may not be able to see it yet because of all the intricacy of the covenant and the legendary? But the class should be fun and fresh to play day one and I know that is what you aim at.

My quick feedback on both path:

Demonic needed a change but a reduction in duration and leech isn’t really interesting for a new expansion, it just feels bad. I would replace it with something entirely new and revamp soul-rending as those two talents are tied to one another. Btw demonic never state that you enter metamorphosis state…never understood the typo there as it makes the whole talent read just complex for no gain.

Momentum build suffer from forcing the player to make a choice between mobility and damage…what talents forces anyone to make such a drastic decision on any ability? i.e:
In a raid If used as a D. buff, you take your chance to get wiped by the next boss’s ability, so you hold on to it and for every second you hesitate you lose DPS (no positive vibes there…you know you can’t use your 7th tier talent at full efficiency) (sarcasm incoming): So you learn the encounters to perfection and decide to time every single boss’s ability to sync them with your fell rush cooldown timers and burst at the same time! You are Illidan incarnate !..but oh wait it doesn’t work like that…you end up either dead or at the bottom of efficiency.

Damage and Mobility are also the essence of PVP and juxtaposing those two powers in one makes us feel we make poor life decisions regularly: Why do demon hunters need to feel bad using fell rush as defensive mobility? So many classes have multiple displacement abilities that do not hamper them in the way they use them (aside from bad timing)! (monks: (tumble, dragon kick, and their spirit teleport thingy), Warriors have intercept (yes all spec now), charge and hero jump)
They don’t have to think about their talent when they use them or at least not in a negative way.
All this to say that If momentum was replaced by a talent that boosts my damage for 15% for 6s (without being linked to fell rush) I would be happier (still a sad push buff button, so please don’t listen to me)

I know there is the word hunter in demon hunter and I feel that the essence of Fell rush was to pursue your target but don’t force me to do so as its not a tab target ability and is obviously used defensively or reactively. if not intended that way …why then? why not make it a tab target ability. It would make sense if only vengeful retreat could get another charge somewhere in a talent, it would provide the mobility I need to play as a mobile dps with some defensive move and attacking moves… (I kinda disagree with myself there but for the sake of making the point)

At last, I don’t know what to make of the level 40 talents (5th row) Essence break in my view isn’t powerful enough to compete with an additional button to press to open a 8s CS spam. and I am too lazy to look into the dps math of Cycle and First blood, but easily associated them with the two main builds for DH…just that First blood taste better.

Thanks for keeping up with my bad sense of humor.

Hope this helps!

Some small feedback from my testing so far.
Firstly i was kinda sad to see that Burning Hatred was not changed like for tank to also increase duration so it have some play around the new consuit and legendary.
Also with the clear focus to play Essence break and having a conduit for it, it feel so wrong to have it on the same talent row as first blood since i for one would not like to press blade dance on CD without the reduced cost as 35 just feels way to much. And it in the same way also locks some play with cycle of hatred with demonic since again i not like spamming blade dance with heavy cost and no st dmg.
As many others also have stated I find the nurf for blade dance dodge to be very sad as it was a nice skill you could use on a few fight (not overpowered in any way with so few fights it can be used) but i would 100% understand a pvp nurf for it as it is insanely strong in pvp.
The nurf also again comes with my next consern that is survival or self healing.
The amount of nurfs to survival all at once are quite insane. going from alot of passive leech to basicly 0 if not running demonic appetite feels realy squishy compared with now we will take larger hits as well since blur and netherwalk was nurfed. I for one would much rather have seen a longer CD on blur than a nurf to the dmg reduce as it is not too often you need a cd anyway that often but rather a larger one.
I never like the way that many skills or classes get nurfed/buffed from one end of the scale to the other in one go.

A few specific feedback.
Unbound chaos currently hits at the start of fel rush instead of the end as the tooltip state. I hope this is changed due to with play around momentum i would like to vengeful retreat out and felrush back in but doing this now spawn a unbound out of range to hit anything.
I feel that first blood should be moved to allow for combination play with first blood and essence break or cycle. Maybe just switch it around with trail of ruin.
Demonic is still stong but currently when comparing it to bfa it feels so weak due to only a single death sweep and if you forget to fury cap before you likely only get 1 chaos strike as well. The change to duration also feels wierd when you think of vengeace getting a longer duration even though their normal meta is much shorter.
Lastly I’m so sad to not see a return of bloodlet in some way. I realy liked the talent and it could have some great interaction with the new legendary and conduit for eye beam.

The reason Vengeance gets a longer uptime than havoc, is to make up for the missing talent Gluttony.
On Beta with Demonic we have around a 16-18% uptime on meta through Fel Devastation, which is basically equal to Gluttony.
We will still end up having a lower Metamorphosis uptime than on live servers due to the lack of Vision of Perfection (anywhere between 9-12%).

I would not draw a comparison between the 2 specs, since VDH Meta is a defensive spell, whereas Havoc Meta is offensive.

This week’s build brings a complete set of level rewards for the post-50 Demon Hunter, including the addition of popular spells Furious Gaze and Revel in Pain.

Havoc has also had a few changes to its talent tree to address Nemesis. Nemesis was intended to be a strong single target sustained option, but it hasn’t proven popular among players. We’re reshuffling the tree a bit, bringing a buffed-up version of Fel Barrage down to the level 50 row and adding a new AoE Fury spender, Glaive Tempest, to the level 30 row.

This creates more interesting choices in the rows on the complexity and payoff you want in your damage rotation. Please give them a try and let us know what you think!

Glaive Tempest feels really good, there is now little to no downtime with AOE situation with the proper talents ! In open world and Thorgast, it feels a bit overpowered with 140 ilvl.

I did not test it in dungons yet, I have the feeling it will be insane in mythic+ !

The up for Fel Barrage is nice too, it is now hard for me to choose the lvl 50 talent, which is a good thing !

Feedback from the changes announced on 19th August, 2020.

So far, very impressed and I now have interest in pursuing my main for Shadowlands. Furious Gaze’s return was a very pleasant change, much needed and its very good to see Blizzard acknowledging the Demon Hunter communities love for the Demonic style of play.

Of course, no offense meant to those who prefer Momentum. I believe no class should be solely dependent on a single style of play. Druid is a perfect example of this.

Further Feedback from the silent tuning patch you’ve done around August 21st-22nd.

Nope, you’ve done it again. Overly nerfed to the point of where there’s almost no reason to even have the talent on our composition anymore. 19 seconds, really? I begin to wonder if Balance developers even actually play the game themselves when they make these changes.

19 seconds is far too harsh, and introducing the AOE limit? Why is it that only the melee classes seem to getting the splintered stick this patch? The only ranged class that really gets impacted by the AOE changes appears to be Marksman Hunter.

Please consider reducing Glaive Tempest to a more reasonable cooldown, such as Blade Dance, 8.6 seconds or even 10 seconds. Any more, just makes it no where worth it for me, and likely others to use.

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