Feedback: Demon Hunters

Demon Hunter talent updates will be starting to roll in as they become ready, starting with Havoc tree changes in this week’s PTR build. In some cases, talents may be missing or marked as a work in progress [WIP], but there are enough changes to the Havoc tree and individual talents that we’d like to get it in players’ hands to begin gathering feedback. Vengeance and Class tree changes are coming soon.

Demon Hunter

  • Spectral Sight cooldown is now 1 minute 30 seconds (was 1 minute, and 30 seconds with rank 2 talented).
  • Fodder to the Flame demon now revealed by Spectral Sight.
  • Fodder to the Flame demon now takes fatal damage from Eye Beam/Fel Devastation in addition to Throw Glaive.
  • Fodder to the Flame buff is now granted immediately upon killing demon (was upon collecting soul).
  • Metamorphosis cooldown reduced to 3 minutes (was 4 minutes).
  • Darkness now has a 15% chance to avoid all damage from an attack. Chance to avoid damage increased by 100% when not in a raid.
  • First of the Illidari has been removed.
  • Havoc
    • Metamorphosis duration reduced to 20 seconds (was 24 seconds).
    • Demonic Appetite is now baseline for Havoc and causes souls to generate 20 Fury (was 30).
    • Fel Eruption is now baseline for Havoc.
    • Glaive Tempest cooldown increased to 25 seconds (was 20 seconds), damage increased by 15%, and damage reduced beyond 8 targets (was 5).
    • Fel Barrage has been redesigned – No longer channeled, drains 15 Fury per tick, lasts until Fury is depleted. Damage reduced beyond 5 targets (was 8).
    • Initiative’s effect is no longer triggered or denied by damage over time effects.
    • Momentum now increases damage by 6% (was 8%), lasts 6 seconds (was 5 seconds), and duration stacks to a max of 30 seconds (was 10 seconds).
    • New Talent: Inertia – When empowered by Unbound Chaos, Fel Rush increases damage by 20% for 5 seconds.
    • Fel Rush now enforces a global cooldown of 0.5 seconds (was 0.25 seconds).
    • Felblade now enforces a global cooldown of 0.5 seconds (was 1.5 seconds).
    • [WIP] New Talent: Deflecting Dance – Blade Dance deflects incoming attacks, absorbing damage up to 15% of your maximum health.
    • [WIP] New Talent: A Fire Inside – Immolation Aura has 1 additional charge and 30% chance to refund a charge when activated. You can have multiple Immolation Auras active at a time
    • Felfire Heart talent has been removed.
    • Fel Rush damage increased by 60%.
    • Unbound Chaos is now a 1-point talent (was 2) and increases next Fel Rush damage by 250% (was 200/400%).
    • Critical Chaos is now a 1-point talent (was 2), and has refund chance 30% of your Critical Strike chance (was 20/40%).
    • Dancing with Fate is now a 1-point talent (was 2), Blade Dance final slash damage bonus is now 25% (was 20/40%).
    • Blind Fury now is now a 1-point talent (was 2), Eye Beam generates 40 Fury per second (was 20/40) and has 10% increased damage and duration (was 10/20%).
    • Serrated Glaives is now a 1-point talent (was 2), and has been adjusted – Enemies hit by Chaos Strike or Throw Glaive (was only Throw Glaive) take 15% (was 10/20%) increased damage from Chaos Strike and Throw Glaive (was Chaos Strike and Eye Beam).
    • Growing Inferno is now a 1-point talent (was 2), and increases damage by 10% per tick (was 5/10%).
    • Isolated Prey has been adjusted – No longer causes Fel Rush to grant Fury; now causes Immolation Aura to deal 30% increased damage.
  • Vengeance
    • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (2) Set Bonus – Chance to trigger reduced for each target beyond the first.

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  • Momentum

I retract my statement, the switch from 10 to 30 seconds max Duration is excellent. Being able to keep Momentum going constantly is a good way to differentiate the choice-node. With the choice between Momentum and Inertia, you’ve offered the Havoc player a defining choice of playstyle, and that is wonderful.

Number wise, I think it would feel better with 7% Damage / 5 sec Duration with Felblade added to the suit of triggers. This would really finalize the Momentum Havoc gameplay.


Love what you’ve done to havoc. Specifically the changes to fodder, fel barrage, inertia as a choice node, and the immo aura charges. I also really hope we get to keep deflecting dance because it’s super cool and brings me back to old havoc where blade dance did some defense as well.

I think the idea of inertia is good. At least it’s a different playstyle to momentum. I prefer the old momentum where it happened less often but was a bigger damage increase compared to now where it is maintenance buff basically.
So this new talent is at least something

It should be fun to try out fel barrage. I hope that it plays with a shorter cd compared to sindragosa but shorter duration of upkeep too. That sounds interesting to me


Fully agree with the 2 comments above, there are many interesting elements being introduced here that I look forward to properly test and give feedback on.

I also reinforce the fact that the choice node between Momentum and Inertia is a great idea. I will need to see how it actually feels playing each in different build setups and situations.

I do have 1 main suggestion and ask for consideration if possible:

The main draw to Havoc for many players has been the unique action packed, high risk - high reward, “flowing” gameplay style that Momentum offers while (historically) performing well. The gameplay satisfaction comes from the combination of all these aspects.

Now with the node as is (pending proper testing), there may be a risk that power/performance and classic Momentum gameplay “flow” are becoming too decoupled in each choice respectively.

It may be worth finding a closer middle for each choice. For example Momentum being more impactful and Inertia being procced by more abilities than UB Chaos + Fel Rush combo. Perhaps the Hunt could have a role to play here?

Reading the patch notes I was feeling extremely positive. However I have to say I’m disappointed after having logged in to PTR and seen the placements of the new talents. A Fire Inside being bottom right is quite sad. I was hoping it would be a mainstay talent for all builds and that Immolation Aura becomes a button that’s worth pressing but instead it’s destined for the Ragefire/Soulrend build that hasn’t been played at all this tier in any scenario and that generally people don’t like to play.

With the current layout we will have more viable builds but each of them will feel just as empty as the current builds do. The power is too spread out. There are certain talents that feel awful to play without and no matter what you play you’re always going to be without several of those core talents.

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Does this mean it’s no longer a proc and rather every time you spectral you see a demon or what?

If so, this is highly problematic for PvP scenarios, because that forces you into the talent that makes Spectral Sight not break on damage, and if you get stunned or CCed you get denied your Demon every time.

Can this please be worded more clearly? Does this mean it just provides a 15% health shield upon using Blade Dance or it does that + cause attacks on you to “miss” during Blade Dance?

This is good for having more talents, but terrible for the ability in terms of damage when it already does somewhat negligible damage if you are not playing Essence Break. Consider keeping the original bonus value that is currently for specing 2 points into it because this is a 99% pickup talent currently by everyone.

Everything else you guys have come up with sounds pretty good and I am looking forward to it.

Speak for yourself. Soulrend build is meta in PvP for the entire expansion.

Freebie bonus ideas in my post The long list of Havoc Demon Hunter changes we need

Excuse me? This is one of the most popular choices for M+ and I enjoy playing it alot.

Tested on PTR. Demon do not disappear if spectral is broken, just that it seems the demon only spawns when you use it so more controlled with the +20% extra dmg instantly afterwards aswell.

Deflecting Dance seems to be absorb only, testing on tanking dummy. But others might test it on players. But it will def be quite big over the course of a game considering how often its used.
And if its only absorb, I do feel it should be named something other than deflect. Personal opinion.

While I quite like fodder being a 90 second cooldown, the concern I have with its interaction with Spectral Sight is the impact to FPS in an already high intensity raid environment as you cannot completely cancel aura the slow and screen change.

If you want fodder as a 90second CD, why not just change the decription a little and make it a pressable button in its own right?


That would add a button, which I guess they don’t want to.
I don’t think that it would impact your FPS.

  • Fel Barrage has been redesigned – No longer channeled, drains 15 Fury per tick, lasts until Fury is depleted. Damage reduced beyond 5 targets (was 8).

This would be really cool if there was a way to maintain the uptime for upwards to 5-7 secons. On PTR it feels like this depletes within 1 second, even with Fury generators up.

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Can you already get rid of the Momentum?

Seriously, I want to make a DH alt into main and the only thing stopping me is Momentum.

Sacrificing mobility and utility for damage and in process swiping camera like crazy.

It’s like come on - people don’t like it, get rid of it already. Kill it for good.


Please just remove momentum. Please. I wanted to swap my main to DH, and Momentum is the only thing that makes this spec annoying to play to a degree, where I don’t wanna do it. I am pretty good on vengeance, and I like how vengeance plays, but then when I swap to Havoc, it kills the class. Unenjoyable. Mobility should be used for moving with intention, not to do damage.

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My 2 cents from a highly casual perspective that is at the moment looking for classes/specs to play in future content updates and possibly become more involved with the game in terms of M+ and Raiding if opportunities present itself regarding IRL (if not I will gladly stay a filthy casual), I confidently say I will never play Momentum, ever. Zipping around the battlefield unencumbered is fun and Momentum negates that by forcing me to think about a part of DH kit that I really enjoy in order to maintain a simple damage buff. There is no need to limit the class and gameplay in this way. Talent trees should build on class strengths/attractions. If movement is an attraction of DH class, and it is, then talents shouldn’t decrease that particularly enjoyable part of class’s gameplay just to get +5% dps increase. I don’t see no talents that make frostbolt not slow enemies along with giving dmg buffs, but here we are, for a very long time as Demon Hunters we have Fel Rush that we can use freely, up until we can’t anymore and must augment our gameplay via talent choices to stay competitive. There are much better ways to go about this.

Personally, Momentum should get RoP treatment since they both induce (or in the case of RoP, induced) similar problems, a talent that makes spec unnecessarily unfun, taking away one part of really enjoyable gameplay and modifying it in such a way that makes it tedious. As far as I can tell, reading WoW EU forums, NA forums and many outside sources, Momentum is favoured by a very small number of players, many of whom take it because it increases output significantly enough and therefore wrongly feel obligated to defend it, while others just take it cause it gives bigger deeps and would jump at the chance to not have to spec it. And bigger deeps means nothing if talents taken make class worse or unfun.

So, without turning this into an essay on how I feel, I will end this post with a thought experiment: taking a deep breath and understanding that I have to think about Momentum’s apparent potential in the future just makes me turn my attention to other classes and specs that don’t have these kinds of issues. Simply put, if right side of the tree in the future is not competitive, I will HAVE to take Momentum, a gameplay pattern that I simply don’t find enjoyable because it takes away from what makes DH fun in the first place. And with that sinking in, for me, there really is only one side of Havoc tree that I find fun. Casual, M+, PvP or Raids, one would expect more viability and more enjoyable build diversity from a class that has only one DPS spec.

I really have high hopes for this class and a lot of trust in our dev to iron out these issues in future updates, whenever they may come.


Going to preface this with 2 things. Firstly I’m a CE raider and have mained DH while subbed since Legion. Second, I actually quite enjoyed the spec from the current tier. I’ll try not let this get in the way of feedback and stick to reviewing how I feel about the spec tree changes since I expect a tuning pass after class tree is reworked and any other changes in the spec tree are implemented. I’ve added some suggestions with how I’d change things to avoid the problems I’ve brought up.

First gate

  • Too many choices to make / not enough points for things that feel necessary.
  • Forcing pathing through the defensive choice is nice, but maybe we should have a choice between which of the two choice nodes to path through? The right defensive node feels REALLY bad to me from a PVE perspective
  • Going to get worse when the two missing talents show up
  • Dancing With Fate locked behind Burning Hatred is a bit weird?
    • would be more logical to mirror the two chaos strike nodes on the left with two blade dance nodes on the right? Hard to say without seeing the missing two talents.

Second gate

  • Opposite issue of the first, feels like we have to pick almost everything and the choice is not what to take but what NOT to take

I think the fix here is to increase the points threshold on the first gate to require a few more points.

Fodder to the Flame (i hate this talent and want it gone but…)

  • Fodder cooldown of 1m30 seems very weird, doesnt line up with anything but Fel Barrage. (wont line up with The Hunt unless 4pc is scrapped)
  • This is now just another cooldown which I really dont think DH needs. We have a plethora of medium duration CDs (Beam, EssB, VR, Immo, GT) and longer ones too: 2min meta, 1m30 hunt, 1m30 barrage. Do we really need this?

Could tie it to the Hunt instead making it into a damage window and increasing the effectiveness of current 4pc without adding a button. Would solve some of the PvP issues re: spectral sight too. Thematically suited since you’d be hunting the fodder demon or something idk??

Bottom Right Side

  • Soulrend gating immo talents and conversely glaive talents leading into the new Immo Capstone and AMN which have 0 effect on glaive is very weird. Furious Throws is also disconnected from the other glaive talents now.
    • Shift the glaive talents lower down, make it start with relentless onslaught → serrated → other glaive talents so that the non glaive talents are more accessible and you can specialise into glaives more as a capstone.
  • Cant really think of a situation where you path to AMN through Cycle. AMN seems only ever relevant for Immo builds since the rest of our damage is barely affected.
    • Maybe it needs to be the right side capstone instead. Otherwise I feel like it needs an additional effect to make it relevant to the other builds (glaive/meta extend) that it is now linked to.

Bottom Left Side

  • Inertia + Demonic + Initiative all being 5s duration feels quite bad since theres no way to fit them all together “properly”. Forced to munch duration on one or more of the buffs (whatever sims highest)
    • Possible solution, applying inertia while in demon form extends meta by 1s which would allow for a full combo with minimal effect in meta durations
    • Alternate solution: inertia increases the damage of the next X abilities
  • Inertia + Immo charges looks strong, but Immo CD being tied to haste means lining up inertia windows without charges will feel quite bad (i.e. variable and not predictable).
    • Making immo charges more accessible higher in tree and capstone talent provides some additional buff as well as immo cd/charge reset would be a possible fix
  • Inertia (apparently, havent tested) not stacking, very bad with immo charges/reset chance
  • Fel Barrage and Essence Break are easy to take together but feel weird. You likely want the fury gain from Eyebeam for the barrage, but then want to also essence break during meta. You have to essentially delay one or the other to make good use of either and this doesnt feel great.
    • Either make them a choice node, or shift Fel barrage somewhere else?

Bottom Centre

  • Cycle and SD seem pretty nerfed with the loss of fury gen in the overall build
    • Cycle → flat 20s CDR would remove some of the issues of losing uptime on boss and nullify the fury loss from IP changes. Also simplifies the rotation keeping Essence Break synced with Eyebeam and Vengeful Retreat.

A copy/paste of my post in the US forum :

Here is my comprehensive review of the DH changes. I’ll try to be very thorough, keeping in mind that this is my opinion and I mainly play PvP at a mid-to-high level.

Sorry in advance for the long post.

  • Firstly, thank you for adding Demonic Appetite and Fel Eruption as baseline abilities. It’s truly a massive improvement to quality of life and was quite unexpected. The GCD change on Fel Blade is also fantastic.

I’m now going to try to get into the developers’ mindset to understand what they’re trying to steer us towards :

  • We’re losing the tier bonus related to Eye Beam. Serrated Glaive no longer works with Eye Beam, Blind Fury is now a damage multiplier of x1.21 instead of x1.44 and generates less Fury. The duration of Demonic goes from 6 to 5 seconds.
  • We’re gaining a tier bonus related to Throw Glaive and The Hunt. The base damage of Throw Glaive has been increased, and Serretade Glaive now boosts the damage of Throw Glaive.
  • We’re losing damage on almost all of our basic spells (all except Throw Glaive), but in return, we have two buffs (Inertia and Fodder) that can be used at our discretion to increase our damage.

With Eye Beam reverting to a “demon form activation” button, and the nerf to Demonic, and the usage of Throw Glaive that cost GCD and Fury, the usefulness of Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny diminishes significantly. On the other hand, SoulRend becomes almost “mandatory”.

Keeping all of this in mind, here is my talent tree review. I’m going to divide my comments into three paragraphs: one for the area before spending 8 points, one for the area between 9 and 20 points, and one for the area between 21 and 30 points.

-------------------- 1rst Row

Regarding the first zone, we’re missing 2 unknown talent points, so my perspective might change later on. However, for now…

  • It seems odd to me that Demon Blade/Insatiable Hunger is still present. I believe I’m not mistaken in saying that 100% of players choose Demon Blade. Given that we’re no longer the “2-button class” as some ignorantly put it, we simply don’t have the time to play Demon’s Bite. Just the thought of pressing that key again is vexing. Insatiable Hunger (and Demon’s Bite) are outdated mechanics that should be removed to make Demon Blade a baseline ability.
  • Critical Chaos is really peculiar. It increases the chances of getting a cost refund on Chaos Strike, but it completely contradicts Chaos Blades, which refunds at 100%. Moreover, in the new talent tree, it blocks access to Improved Chaos Strike, which should ideally be available in all builds. In my opinion, these two talents should switch positions, with a generic talent blocking access to a situational talent (because you dont want to pick Critical Chaos when you have Chaos Blades) being a better arrangement.
  • It’s truly a good thing to have placed Netherwalk on a “mandatory” tier. However, Desperate Instincts doesn’t work at all. The percentage at which it triggers is really too low because we want to use it at a high percentage to avoid damage, not to delay after already taking it. I propose a rework for this talent: instead of triggering automatically, it simply allows the use of Blur when stunned/feared, with a reduced duration and cooldown.
  • Regarding the new choice between Deflecting Dance and Mortal Dance, first of all, the addition of Deflecting Dance is REALLY significant and will hopefully solve many survival issues in the arena. However, it’s really strange to make it a choice with Mortal Dance, since on one hand, we’re the only class that has to spend a talent point to have an MS effect, and also because it seems like we’re the only class where the uptime isn’t 100% (we’re closer to around 60% in PvP). With all the damage nerfs we’ve received (Eye Beam, Chaos Strike, Blade Dance), I’m not sure if it’s worth depriving us of an MS on top of that… It would be a really great addition to have Mortal Dance as a baseline ability.

-------------------- 2nd Row

The second row is really peculiar. I won’t dwell on each talent individually, but rather on the overall structure of the tree… We need to spend 12 talent points, and there are 15 available slots. So, the goal here isn’t really to choose which 12 points to spend, but rather to identify the three least interesting ones. And the choice is quickly made: Improved Fel Rush doesn’t seem very powerful; Relentless Onslaught is too random, it can be extremely good (if it procs twice in a row during Essence Break) or completely useless, depending too heavily on RNG. We’ll naturally focus on more consistent talents. The final choice will be between Looks Can Kill and Furious Gaze, considering all the nerfs on Eye Beam, or potentially Blind Fury, but the ability to generate resources right at the moment of burst seems too good to pass up. To sum up, 11 talent points are “mandatory”, and the player has 1 point of choice between 4 on this row…

And if the player chooses not to use a talent with Throw Glaive, the talent tree becomes completely rigid with no customization options available. This choice inevitably leads to the left and middle paths in the third row.

This may change when we will have 1rst row missing talents because we might spend 1-3 more points into this row. Wait and see.

-------------------- 3nd Row

For the third row, I’ll try to detail the possible synergies and why the current distribution poses an issue.

  • Firstly, we have a maximum of 10 talent points to spend and 19 are available. As we’ve seen earlier, our base damage has been reduced, and Throw Glaive is at the core of the new gameplay. Considering this, it would be unwise to forgo Momentum/Inertia, which are now easy to pick and increase our damage at the most opportune moment. In my opinion, this talent should have a pick rate of 100%. Similarly, Accelerated Blade and Soulrend are just too good to pass up. Unless there are contrary simulations, I would be surprised if these talents don’t have a 100% pick rate.

So, we have 6 talent points left to spend. That leaves us with 6 talent points to allocate, and we still have 15 possibilities. So, we’ll need to carefully consider and prioritize the most beneficial options. I want to emphasize that up until this point, the basic build is fixed. These remaining 6 talent points are our only customization options, as the other 24 are too rigid/powerful to be moved.

  • The first thing that seems the most powerful is Know Your Enemy, which will passively increase our damage by 10 to 30% and enhance our burst since Initiative is on the standard path, which would also be unwise to skip. Since it costs two talent points, we now have only 4 remaining.
  • Similarly, now that we have Know Your Enemy, it seems foolish not to take Essence Break, which is currently the cornerstone of our burst. However, this might need to be reevaluated in light of the nerfs to Blade Dance and Chaos Strike to see if it still holds true. So, we truly have 3 talent points left to use (and this does block Shattered Destiny).

Finally, I could drive the point home by saying that since the tier set revolves around The Hunt, and considering the intended playstyle revolving around Immolation Aura, Any Means Necessary also becomes a logical choice. However, I don’t want to jump to conclusions considering the currently low damage of The Hunt. However, a crucial point is that in my opinion, A Fire Inside doesn’t work without Any Means Necessary, which “locks” us into using 2 points if we choose this talent.

For this last row, I will detail my impressions on each talent one by one.

  • Inertia: This talent seems excellent on paper, but in gameplay, it’s more complicated. The 5-second window is difficult to set up since it’s linked to Fel Rush. This means you either need to be far from the target to land on it and make the most of the 5 seconds, or you have to “save” Fel Blade to chain the two abilities and quickly return to melee range. In both cases, you lose uptime on the target, either before or just after. A duration of 7 seconds seems more manageable in real-world conditions, which wouldn’t necessarily allow for more spells to be cast in that window.
    The fact that we want to use everything at the same time, and that both Initiative and Inertia have a 5-second duration, seems difficult to coordinate. This is because we will inevitably lose a GCD (Global Cooldown) on one or the other, in addition to the GCD we already lose to proc Inertia. The basic combo would be Vengeful Retreat into Fel Rush to trigger both at the same time, but this seems a bit rigid and ultimately only amounts to using a buff with 3 or even 4 buttons (Immolation Aura, Vengeful Retreat, Fel Rush, and optionally Fel Blade).
    And this is also contradictory with Growing Inferno and potentially Ragefire, where we want the maximum uptime on Immolation Aura, especially towards the end of its duration. Here, it works at the beginning and we lose uptime, either due to the described functioning or because the last ticks of Immolation Aura won’t benefit from Initiative/Inertia, even though it’s the last ticks that deal the most damage. Setting Initiative and Inertia to 7 seconds would provide more freedom of movement and allow Immolation Aura to benefit from it throughout its entire duration, especially at the most crucial moment.
  • Fel Barrage: The rework of this talent might seem interesting on paper, but in practice, it’s far from it and remains a lackluster choice.
    It deals really negligible damage and consumes too much fury, especially for a 1.5-minute cooldown, which is supposed to correspond to a rather powerful one (considering, for example, The Hunt which deals 688% of attack power for 1.5 minutes, we should expect to be in that range, but it’s not the case). It might be interesting to combine Fel Barrage with the burst sequence to deal even more damage, but even starting at 120 fury, using Immolation Aura (with burning hatred) and Vengeful Retreat, followed by Fel Barrage, and Eye Beam (with Blind Fury), the fury is consumed too quickly and doesn’t allow for a follow-up with our Essence Break window. Additionally, it’s completely contradictory with Cycle of Hatred, and the talent is completely useless if the player wants to take Shattered Destiny.

You need to better position yourself on this talent:

  • Either you want it to be a very powerful cooldown to be used on his own, and you need to drastically increase its damage (please note I’m talking about a x4 or x5 increase). Because it consume +/- 150 fury it needs to do more damage than Death Sweep + 3-4 Annihilations, otherwise it’s useless.
  • Or it’s an extra to use during the burst, and you need to both reduce the cooldown and the fury consumption, perhaps by halving both.
  • Glaive Tempest : I fell in love with this talent since the release of the Legion expansion. It’s perfect, visually appealing, deals good damage, and synergizes well with the entire kit. Unfortunately, the arrangement of talent points from 21 to 30, as explained earlier, makes it seem impossible for me to choose this talent without giving up even more powerful options. I understand that a talent tree is designed for making choices, but it saddens me deeply not to be able to play this talent optimally. I also fell sad that you can’t do a Glaive build with Throw Glaive + Glaive Tempest and make it work, would be huge if Soulrend could work on Glaive Tempest. Also, considering the few talents we have and Glaive Tempest being locked behind Chaos Blades, it is actually harder to take than any other talents in the 3rd row and I think it sould be way easier to pick (Fel Barrage is way easier to pick for example, because you want to take Know Your Ennemy).
  • Fodder to the Flame: The new functionality of the talent is generally good. The only issue in my opinion is linking its use to Spectral Sight rather than making it a standalone usable talent. Spectral Sight is used to unstealth rogues, mages, and hunters, and this forces us to abandon this functionality, partly because of the huge cooldown that follows, and also to avoid losing a burst window of 20% damage. It would have been better to make it an activatable ability with the same mechanics, rather than forcing us to change the use of Spectral Sight (which would guarantees the Rogue the free ability to sap + open, when it is already one of our anti-class…).
  • A Fire Inside : We cannot test this talent yet, but I can already see potential problems arising due to the chance percentage of resetting the cooldown. What are the consequences for Fel Barrage if we can have 3 or 4 Burning Hatred active at the same time? Is this intentional and is it the correct way to play Fel Barrage? What about the burst heal from Leech if 4 or 5 Ragefire triggers in succession? Imagining an arena scenario with 2 melee opponents, the RNG factor that could lead to having 4 active Immolation Auras at the same time completely changes the situation. The RNG factor of this talent seems extremely problematic, but it’s impossible to test its power currently. What about Inertia? Is it possible to stack two buffs with it or extend its duration using this mechanic as well?.

Other Requests

  • Chaotic Imprint has 100% pickrate in any form of PvP content, it would be nice to have it baseline or other spells tuned accordingly to have a real 3rd slot available.

  • Glimpse is supposed to work “until you land” but in fact it has a 7-8 max seconds duration, so it doesn’t fully work with Rain from Above for example.

  • Talking about Rain From Above, it have really weird behavior with some spells, for example with Static Field Totem it sometimes cause you to hit a non-existent ceiling that’s about 1 or 2 meters high, completely negating the effects of the talent. Additionally, when we get cycloned or feared, it sometimes cancels the animation, causing our character to fall about forty meters, resulting in instant death. This isn’t enjoyable, especially when it happens during a round of solo shuffle.

  • There seems to be an issue with the balance of Chaos damage in the current lore. While Chaos is supposed to represent the most powerful form of magic, it is currently considered the weakest. Chaos damage can be stopped by various magical protections, as well as by physical protections if the spell has a physical component. This contradicts the idea that Chaos should be invincible. It might be wise to reconsider how Chaos damage works so that it is at least immune to physical protections. While making Chaos unstoppable could pose balance issues, it seems that adjustments are necessary to truly reflect its power in the lore.


  • Overall good and welcomed changes
  • Make Mortal Dance baseline.
  • Make Demon Blades baseline.
  • Increase Initiative and Inertia to 7sec.
  • Rework Fel Barrage, either reduce cost and cooldown OR increase significantly it’s damage.
  • Maybe make Know Your Enemy ; Soulrend ; and Cycle of Hatred 1 point to allow more options about the 3rd row of talents or anything else to allow for more combinaisons, and since you would only take 2 of them, it just allows you to take 2 more talents, nothing too powerful but for example allows you to pick ragefire+a fire inside, or Chaos Theory + Glaive Tempest, or A fire inside + Fel barrage, etc…

Now I was just thinking something about fodder,the rng chance of spawn is very nice, it gives u something to wait about, and its so demon hunter alike and saver that gives u a shine to your blind eyes.
What could be done to help improvise is making it an extra on use button with 4 min cd or something which can be used on stun and cc and the problem is solved I think.
Keep the rmg awsomness and make an extra on use button on cc,but dont allow for 2 demonspawns up

First you say:

       "Our goal  improving pathing and connections in the Class tree; addressing underused talents; increasing access to key Havoc utility that currently clashes with DPS; updating existing talents to improve resultant gameplay; improving Vengeance’s Sigil-related talents as a possible build identity or to be incorporated into other builds more successfully; and adding a couple new talents that help achieve those goals."


and then you…you just do the opposite:
1.Fodder to the Flame demon now revealed by Spectral Sight.
Like this is exactly key Havoc utility will clash with DPS because spectral sight is needed to check location of stealth players, npc behind wall etc yet spectral sight is REMOVED whenever dh receives any damage. So now when i use spectral sight my demon will appear, hit me and immediately REMOVE sight from me? Nice utility clashing into dps
2. * Darkness now has a 15% chance to avoid all damage from an attack. Chance to avoid damage increased by 100% when not in a raid.
This is exactly the opposite to improving resultant gameplay. Darkness was already a weak ability because 20% is like very low and people were easily killed through it with chaos bolts, sniper shots etc. or pushed out from it which was states numerous times - Let’s talk about DH - #26 by Velfchurch-draenor
Needed to learn the hard way that
with nerfing it even more you guarantee only one result - death to dh when his blur is over.
3. Inertia and other fel rush buff changes.
Again, this is utility that will now clash with DPS. Fel rush is an MOBILITY ability, it is not used offensive much. It’s connect-to target ability, flee ability etc but not damage rotational ability. Your changes to make most important mobility utility into damage rotation will screw the gameplay.
4. * Serrated Glaives is now a 1-point talent (was 2), and has been adjusted – Enemies hit by Chaos Strike or Throw Glaive (was only Throw Glaive) take 15% (was 10/20%) increased damage from Chaos Strike and Throw Glaive (was Chaos Strike and Eye Beam).
This is exactly disapproving resultant gameplay since eyebeam is the most iconic ability for dh and was very important in rotation. Yet after you nerfed it recently you nerfing it again lol. You really think that more damage from throw glaive which is one of weakest abilities will compensate damage loss nerf for the most powerful ability? Like how in Illidan’s name throw glaive is supposed to do big damage when it is used just to apply a dot or slow targets?
5. Immolation aura buffs.
few changes will be provided for immo aura which is definitely not for resultant gameplay since this ability is extremely situational and requires your enemies on stack on dh. In pvp it won’t work apart from enemies having tonnes of meele classes stacking together and in pve it will work against non-running adds…pretty much weak for resultant gameplay

Overall, your plans for dh fully contradicting to your own changes. Iam confident that havoc will be extremely frustrating to play, will show poor resultant gameplay, and it’s defensive/mobility abilities will definitely clash into its dps

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Please don’t make this a choice node with Mortal Dance. Just make Mortal Dance baseline like the effect is for other classes like Rising Sun kick for Windwalker and Mortal Strike for Warrior.

This will force PvP players to either pick between not dying and having an antiheal effect to close out games faster. It’s very scuffed.

I absolutely hate the tier set. Anything that has to do with throw glaive is insta garbage for me, because it’s mostly just damage stacked on top of damage with little else.

Aside that, i am not a fan of the fury generation nerf, at all, it forces you to basically run momentum or inertia, i guess inertia is fine though, i like the idea of stacking immo aura, but it shouldn’t be a capstone.

Overall, class/spec changes, ill give it a 6/10 It would be better if it wasn’t for the lower fury gen and weird talent positioning.

And why did you nerf demonic and not document it? Revert it.

Tier set, 2/10. I hate the tier set.