Feedback: Demon Hunters

Please just remove momentum. Please. I wanted to swap my main to DH, and Momentum is the only thing that makes this spec annoying to play to a degree, where I don’t wanna do it. I am pretty good on vengeance, and I like how vengeance plays, but then when I swap to Havoc, it kills the class. Unenjoyable. Mobility should be used for moving with intention, not to do damage.

1 Like

My 2 cents from a highly casual perspective that is at the moment looking for classes/specs to play in future content updates and possibly become more involved with the game in terms of M+ and Raiding if opportunities present itself regarding IRL (if not I will gladly stay a filthy casual), I confidently say I will never play Momentum, ever. Zipping around the battlefield unencumbered is fun and Momentum negates that by forcing me to think about a part of DH kit that I really enjoy in order to maintain a simple damage buff. There is no need to limit the class and gameplay in this way. Talent trees should build on class strengths/attractions. If movement is an attraction of DH class, and it is, then talents shouldn’t decrease that particularly enjoyable part of class’s gameplay just to get +5% dps increase. I don’t see no talents that make frostbolt not slow enemies along with giving dmg buffs, but here we are, for a very long time as Demon Hunters we have Fel Rush that we can use freely, up until we can’t anymore and must augment our gameplay via talent choices to stay competitive. There are much better ways to go about this.

Personally, Momentum should get RoP treatment since they both induce (or in the case of RoP, induced) similar problems, a talent that makes spec unnecessarily unfun, taking away one part of really enjoyable gameplay and modifying it in such a way that makes it tedious. As far as I can tell, reading WoW EU forums, NA forums and many outside sources, Momentum is favoured by a very small number of players, many of whom take it because it increases output significantly enough and therefore wrongly feel obligated to defend it, while others just take it cause it gives bigger deeps and would jump at the chance to not have to spec it. And bigger deeps means nothing if talents taken make class worse or unfun.

So, without turning this into an essay on how I feel, I will end this post with a thought experiment: taking a deep breath and understanding that I have to think about Momentum’s apparent potential in the future just makes me turn my attention to other classes and specs that don’t have these kinds of issues. Simply put, if right side of the tree in the future is not competitive, I will HAVE to take Momentum, a gameplay pattern that I simply don’t find enjoyable because it takes away from what makes DH fun in the first place. And with that sinking in, for me, there really is only one side of Havoc tree that I find fun. Casual, M+, PvP or Raids, one would expect more viability and more enjoyable build diversity from a class that has only one DPS spec.

I really have high hopes for this class and a lot of trust in our dev to iron out these issues in future updates, whenever they may come.

2 Likes

Going to preface this with 2 things. Firstly I’m a CE raider and have mained DH while subbed since Legion. Second, I actually quite enjoyed the spec from the current tier. I’ll try not let this get in the way of feedback and stick to reviewing how I feel about the spec tree changes since I expect a tuning pass after class tree is reworked and any other changes in the spec tree are implemented. I’ve added some suggestions with how I’d change things to avoid the problems I’ve brought up.

First gate

  • Too many choices to make / not enough points for things that feel necessary.
  • Forcing pathing through the defensive choice is nice, but maybe we should have a choice between which of the two choice nodes to path through? The right defensive node feels REALLY bad to me from a PVE perspective
  • Going to get worse when the two missing talents show up
  • Dancing With Fate locked behind Burning Hatred is a bit weird?
    • would be more logical to mirror the two chaos strike nodes on the left with two blade dance nodes on the right? Hard to say without seeing the missing two talents.

Second gate

  • Opposite issue of the first, feels like we have to pick almost everything and the choice is not what to take but what NOT to take

I think the fix here is to increase the points threshold on the first gate to require a few more points.

Fodder to the Flame (i hate this talent and want it gone but…)

  • Fodder cooldown of 1m30 seems very weird, doesnt line up with anything but Fel Barrage. (wont line up with The Hunt unless 4pc is scrapped)
  • This is now just another cooldown which I really dont think DH needs. We have a plethora of medium duration CDs (Beam, EssB, VR, Immo, GT) and longer ones too: 2min meta, 1m30 hunt, 1m30 barrage. Do we really need this?

Could tie it to the Hunt instead making it into a damage window and increasing the effectiveness of current 4pc without adding a button. Would solve some of the PvP issues re: spectral sight too. Thematically suited since you’d be hunting the fodder demon or something idk??

Bottom Right Side

  • Soulrend gating immo talents and conversely glaive talents leading into the new Immo Capstone and AMN which have 0 effect on glaive is very weird. Furious Throws is also disconnected from the other glaive talents now.
    • Shift the glaive talents lower down, make it start with relentless onslaught → serrated → other glaive talents so that the non glaive talents are more accessible and you can specialise into glaives more as a capstone.
  • Cant really think of a situation where you path to AMN through Cycle. AMN seems only ever relevant for Immo builds since the rest of our damage is barely affected.
    • Maybe it needs to be the right side capstone instead. Otherwise I feel like it needs an additional effect to make it relevant to the other builds (glaive/meta extend) that it is now linked to.

Bottom Left Side

  • Inertia + Demonic + Initiative all being 5s duration feels quite bad since theres no way to fit them all together “properly”. Forced to munch duration on one or more of the buffs (whatever sims highest)
    • Possible solution, applying inertia while in demon form extends meta by 1s which would allow for a full combo with minimal effect in meta durations
    • Alternate solution: inertia increases the damage of the next X abilities
  • Inertia + Immo charges looks strong, but Immo CD being tied to haste means lining up inertia windows without charges will feel quite bad (i.e. variable and not predictable).
    • Making immo charges more accessible higher in tree and capstone talent provides some additional buff as well as immo cd/charge reset would be a possible fix
  • Inertia (apparently, havent tested) not stacking, very bad with immo charges/reset chance
  • Fel Barrage and Essence Break are easy to take together but feel weird. You likely want the fury gain from Eyebeam for the barrage, but then want to also essence break during meta. You have to essentially delay one or the other to make good use of either and this doesnt feel great.
    • Either make them a choice node, or shift Fel barrage somewhere else?

Bottom Centre

  • Cycle and SD seem pretty nerfed with the loss of fury gen in the overall build
    • Cycle → flat 20s CDR would remove some of the issues of losing uptime on boss and nullify the fury loss from IP changes. Also simplifies the rotation keeping Essence Break synced with Eyebeam and Vengeful Retreat.
3 Likes

A copy/paste of my post in the US forum :

Here is my comprehensive review of the DH changes. I’ll try to be very thorough, keeping in mind that this is my opinion and I mainly play PvP at a mid-to-high level.

Sorry in advance for the long post.

  • Firstly, thank you for adding Demonic Appetite and Fel Eruption as baseline abilities. It’s truly a massive improvement to quality of life and was quite unexpected. The GCD change on Fel Blade is also fantastic.

I’m now going to try to get into the developers’ mindset to understand what they’re trying to steer us towards :

  • We’re losing the tier bonus related to Eye Beam. Serrated Glaive no longer works with Eye Beam, Blind Fury is now a damage multiplier of x1.21 instead of x1.44 and generates less Fury. The duration of Demonic goes from 6 to 5 seconds.
  • We’re gaining a tier bonus related to Throw Glaive and The Hunt. The base damage of Throw Glaive has been increased, and Serretade Glaive now boosts the damage of Throw Glaive.
  • We’re losing damage on almost all of our basic spells (all except Throw Glaive), but in return, we have two buffs (Inertia and Fodder) that can be used at our discretion to increase our damage.

With Eye Beam reverting to a “demon form activation” button, and the nerf to Demonic, and the usage of Throw Glaive that cost GCD and Fury, the usefulness of Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny diminishes significantly. On the other hand, SoulRend becomes almost “mandatory”.

Keeping all of this in mind, here is my talent tree review. I’m going to divide my comments into three paragraphs: one for the area before spending 8 points, one for the area between 9 and 20 points, and one for the area between 21 and 30 points.

-------------------- 1rst Row

Regarding the first zone, we’re missing 2 unknown talent points, so my perspective might change later on. However, for now…

  • It seems odd to me that Demon Blade/Insatiable Hunger is still present. I believe I’m not mistaken in saying that 100% of players choose Demon Blade. Given that we’re no longer the “2-button class” as some ignorantly put it, we simply don’t have the time to play Demon’s Bite. Just the thought of pressing that key again is vexing. Insatiable Hunger (and Demon’s Bite) are outdated mechanics that should be removed to make Demon Blade a baseline ability.
  • Critical Chaos is really peculiar. It increases the chances of getting a cost refund on Chaos Strike, but it completely contradicts Chaos Blades, which refunds at 100%. Moreover, in the new talent tree, it blocks access to Improved Chaos Strike, which should ideally be available in all builds. In my opinion, these two talents should switch positions, with a generic talent blocking access to a situational talent (because you dont want to pick Critical Chaos when you have Chaos Blades) being a better arrangement.
  • It’s truly a good thing to have placed Netherwalk on a “mandatory” tier. However, Desperate Instincts doesn’t work at all. The percentage at which it triggers is really too low because we want to use it at a high percentage to avoid damage, not to delay after already taking it. I propose a rework for this talent: instead of triggering automatically, it simply allows the use of Blur when stunned/feared, with a reduced duration and cooldown.
  • Regarding the new choice between Deflecting Dance and Mortal Dance, first of all, the addition of Deflecting Dance is REALLY significant and will hopefully solve many survival issues in the arena. However, it’s really strange to make it a choice with Mortal Dance, since on one hand, we’re the only class that has to spend a talent point to have an MS effect, and also because it seems like we’re the only class where the uptime isn’t 100% (we’re closer to around 60% in PvP). With all the damage nerfs we’ve received (Eye Beam, Chaos Strike, Blade Dance), I’m not sure if it’s worth depriving us of an MS on top of that… It would be a really great addition to have Mortal Dance as a baseline ability.

-------------------- 2nd Row

The second row is really peculiar. I won’t dwell on each talent individually, but rather on the overall structure of the tree… We need to spend 12 talent points, and there are 15 available slots. So, the goal here isn’t really to choose which 12 points to spend, but rather to identify the three least interesting ones. And the choice is quickly made: Improved Fel Rush doesn’t seem very powerful; Relentless Onslaught is too random, it can be extremely good (if it procs twice in a row during Essence Break) or completely useless, depending too heavily on RNG. We’ll naturally focus on more consistent talents. The final choice will be between Looks Can Kill and Furious Gaze, considering all the nerfs on Eye Beam, or potentially Blind Fury, but the ability to generate resources right at the moment of burst seems too good to pass up. To sum up, 11 talent points are “mandatory”, and the player has 1 point of choice between 4 on this row…

And if the player chooses not to use a talent with Throw Glaive, the talent tree becomes completely rigid with no customization options available. This choice inevitably leads to the left and middle paths in the third row.

This may change when we will have 1rst row missing talents because we might spend 1-3 more points into this row. Wait and see.

-------------------- 3nd Row

For the third row, I’ll try to detail the possible synergies and why the current distribution poses an issue.

  • Firstly, we have a maximum of 10 talent points to spend and 19 are available. As we’ve seen earlier, our base damage has been reduced, and Throw Glaive is at the core of the new gameplay. Considering this, it would be unwise to forgo Momentum/Inertia, which are now easy to pick and increase our damage at the most opportune moment. In my opinion, this talent should have a pick rate of 100%. Similarly, Accelerated Blade and Soulrend are just too good to pass up. Unless there are contrary simulations, I would be surprised if these talents don’t have a 100% pick rate.

So, we have 6 talent points left to spend. That leaves us with 6 talent points to allocate, and we still have 15 possibilities. So, we’ll need to carefully consider and prioritize the most beneficial options. I want to emphasize that up until this point, the basic build is fixed. These remaining 6 talent points are our only customization options, as the other 24 are too rigid/powerful to be moved.

  • The first thing that seems the most powerful is Know Your Enemy, which will passively increase our damage by 10 to 30% and enhance our burst since Initiative is on the standard path, which would also be unwise to skip. Since it costs two talent points, we now have only 4 remaining.
  • Similarly, now that we have Know Your Enemy, it seems foolish not to take Essence Break, which is currently the cornerstone of our burst. However, this might need to be reevaluated in light of the nerfs to Blade Dance and Chaos Strike to see if it still holds true. So, we truly have 3 talent points left to use (and this does block Shattered Destiny).

Finally, I could drive the point home by saying that since the tier set revolves around The Hunt, and considering the intended playstyle revolving around Immolation Aura, Any Means Necessary also becomes a logical choice. However, I don’t want to jump to conclusions considering the currently low damage of The Hunt. However, a crucial point is that in my opinion, A Fire Inside doesn’t work without Any Means Necessary, which “locks” us into using 2 points if we choose this talent.

For this last row, I will detail my impressions on each talent one by one.

  • Inertia: This talent seems excellent on paper, but in gameplay, it’s more complicated. The 5-second window is difficult to set up since it’s linked to Fel Rush. This means you either need to be far from the target to land on it and make the most of the 5 seconds, or you have to “save” Fel Blade to chain the two abilities and quickly return to melee range. In both cases, you lose uptime on the target, either before or just after. A duration of 7 seconds seems more manageable in real-world conditions, which wouldn’t necessarily allow for more spells to be cast in that window.
    The fact that we want to use everything at the same time, and that both Initiative and Inertia have a 5-second duration, seems difficult to coordinate. This is because we will inevitably lose a GCD (Global Cooldown) on one or the other, in addition to the GCD we already lose to proc Inertia. The basic combo would be Vengeful Retreat into Fel Rush to trigger both at the same time, but this seems a bit rigid and ultimately only amounts to using a buff with 3 or even 4 buttons (Immolation Aura, Vengeful Retreat, Fel Rush, and optionally Fel Blade).
    And this is also contradictory with Growing Inferno and potentially Ragefire, where we want the maximum uptime on Immolation Aura, especially towards the end of its duration. Here, it works at the beginning and we lose uptime, either due to the described functioning or because the last ticks of Immolation Aura won’t benefit from Initiative/Inertia, even though it’s the last ticks that deal the most damage. Setting Initiative and Inertia to 7 seconds would provide more freedom of movement and allow Immolation Aura to benefit from it throughout its entire duration, especially at the most crucial moment.
  • Fel Barrage: The rework of this talent might seem interesting on paper, but in practice, it’s far from it and remains a lackluster choice.
    It deals really negligible damage and consumes too much fury, especially for a 1.5-minute cooldown, which is supposed to correspond to a rather powerful one (considering, for example, The Hunt which deals 688% of attack power for 1.5 minutes, we should expect to be in that range, but it’s not the case). It might be interesting to combine Fel Barrage with the burst sequence to deal even more damage, but even starting at 120 fury, using Immolation Aura (with burning hatred) and Vengeful Retreat, followed by Fel Barrage, and Eye Beam (with Blind Fury), the fury is consumed too quickly and doesn’t allow for a follow-up with our Essence Break window. Additionally, it’s completely contradictory with Cycle of Hatred, and the talent is completely useless if the player wants to take Shattered Destiny.

You need to better position yourself on this talent:

  • Either you want it to be a very powerful cooldown to be used on his own, and you need to drastically increase its damage (please note I’m talking about a x4 or x5 increase). Because it consume +/- 150 fury it needs to do more damage than Death Sweep + 3-4 Annihilations, otherwise it’s useless.
  • Or it’s an extra to use during the burst, and you need to both reduce the cooldown and the fury consumption, perhaps by halving both.
  • Glaive Tempest : I fell in love with this talent since the release of the Legion expansion. It’s perfect, visually appealing, deals good damage, and synergizes well with the entire kit. Unfortunately, the arrangement of talent points from 21 to 30, as explained earlier, makes it seem impossible for me to choose this talent without giving up even more powerful options. I understand that a talent tree is designed for making choices, but it saddens me deeply not to be able to play this talent optimally. I also fell sad that you can’t do a Glaive build with Throw Glaive + Glaive Tempest and make it work, would be huge if Soulrend could work on Glaive Tempest. Also, considering the few talents we have and Glaive Tempest being locked behind Chaos Blades, it is actually harder to take than any other talents in the 3rd row and I think it sould be way easier to pick (Fel Barrage is way easier to pick for example, because you want to take Know Your Ennemy).
  • Fodder to the Flame: The new functionality of the talent is generally good. The only issue in my opinion is linking its use to Spectral Sight rather than making it a standalone usable talent. Spectral Sight is used to unstealth rogues, mages, and hunters, and this forces us to abandon this functionality, partly because of the huge cooldown that follows, and also to avoid losing a burst window of 20% damage. It would have been better to make it an activatable ability with the same mechanics, rather than forcing us to change the use of Spectral Sight (which would guarantees the Rogue the free ability to sap + open, when it is already one of our anti-class…).
  • A Fire Inside : We cannot test this talent yet, but I can already see potential problems arising due to the chance percentage of resetting the cooldown. What are the consequences for Fel Barrage if we can have 3 or 4 Burning Hatred active at the same time? Is this intentional and is it the correct way to play Fel Barrage? What about the burst heal from Leech if 4 or 5 Ragefire triggers in succession? Imagining an arena scenario with 2 melee opponents, the RNG factor that could lead to having 4 active Immolation Auras at the same time completely changes the situation. The RNG factor of this talent seems extremely problematic, but it’s impossible to test its power currently. What about Inertia? Is it possible to stack two buffs with it or extend its duration using this mechanic as well?.

Other Requests

  • Chaotic Imprint has 100% pickrate in any form of PvP content, it would be nice to have it baseline or other spells tuned accordingly to have a real 3rd slot available.

  • Glimpse is supposed to work “until you land” but in fact it has a 7-8 max seconds duration, so it doesn’t fully work with Rain from Above for example.

  • Talking about Rain From Above, it have really weird behavior with some spells, for example with Static Field Totem it sometimes cause you to hit a non-existent ceiling that’s about 1 or 2 meters high, completely negating the effects of the talent. Additionally, when we get cycloned or feared, it sometimes cancels the animation, causing our character to fall about forty meters, resulting in instant death. This isn’t enjoyable, especially when it happens during a round of solo shuffle.

  • There seems to be an issue with the balance of Chaos damage in the current lore. While Chaos is supposed to represent the most powerful form of magic, it is currently considered the weakest. Chaos damage can be stopped by various magical protections, as well as by physical protections if the spell has a physical component. This contradicts the idea that Chaos should be invincible. It might be wise to reconsider how Chaos damage works so that it is at least immune to physical protections. While making Chaos unstoppable could pose balance issues, it seems that adjustments are necessary to truly reflect its power in the lore.

TL:DR

  • Overall good and welcomed changes
  • Make Mortal Dance baseline.
  • Make Demon Blades baseline.
  • Increase Initiative and Inertia to 7sec.
  • Rework Fel Barrage, either reduce cost and cooldown OR increase significantly it’s damage.
  • Maybe make Know Your Enemy ; Soulrend ; and Cycle of Hatred 1 point to allow more options about the 3rd row of talents or anything else to allow for more combinaisons, and since you would only take 2 of them, it just allows you to take 2 more talents, nothing too powerful but for example allows you to pick ragefire+a fire inside, or Chaos Theory + Glaive Tempest, or A fire inside + Fel barrage, etc…
2 Likes

Now I was just thinking something about fodder,the rng chance of spawn is very nice, it gives u something to wait about, and its so demon hunter alike and saver that gives u a shine to your blind eyes.
What could be done to help improvise is making it an extra on use button with 4 min cd or something which can be used on stun and cc and the problem is solved I think.
Keep the rmg awsomness and make an extra on use button on cc,but dont allow for 2 demonspawns up

First you say:

       "Our goal  improving pathing and connections in the Class tree; addressing underused talents; increasing access to key Havoc utility that currently clashes with DPS; updating existing talents to improve resultant gameplay; improving Vengeance’s Sigil-related talents as a possible build identity or to be incorporated into other builds more successfully; and adding a couple new talents that help achieve those goals."

   

and then you…you just do the opposite:
1.Fodder to the Flame demon now revealed by Spectral Sight.
Like this is exactly key Havoc utility will clash with DPS because spectral sight is needed to check location of stealth players, npc behind wall etc yet spectral sight is REMOVED whenever dh receives any damage. So now when i use spectral sight my demon will appear, hit me and immediately REMOVE sight from me? Nice utility clashing into dps
2. * Darkness now has a 15% chance to avoid all damage from an attack. Chance to avoid damage increased by 100% when not in a raid.
This is exactly the opposite to improving resultant gameplay. Darkness was already a weak ability because 20% is like very low and people were easily killed through it with chaos bolts, sniper shots etc. or pushed out from it which was states numerous times - Let’s talk about DH - #26 by Velfchurch-draenor
Needed to learn the hard way that
with nerfing it even more you guarantee only one result - death to dh when his blur is over.
3. Inertia and other fel rush buff changes.
Again, this is utility that will now clash with DPS. Fel rush is an MOBILITY ability, it is not used offensive much. It’s connect-to target ability, flee ability etc but not damage rotational ability. Your changes to make most important mobility utility into damage rotation will screw the gameplay.
4. * Serrated Glaives is now a 1-point talent (was 2), and has been adjusted – Enemies hit by Chaos Strike or Throw Glaive (was only Throw Glaive) take 15% (was 10/20%) increased damage from Chaos Strike and Throw Glaive (was Chaos Strike and Eye Beam).
This is exactly disapproving resultant gameplay since eyebeam is the most iconic ability for dh and was very important in rotation. Yet after you nerfed it recently you nerfing it again lol. You really think that more damage from throw glaive which is one of weakest abilities will compensate damage loss nerf for the most powerful ability? Like how in Illidan’s name throw glaive is supposed to do big damage when it is used just to apply a dot or slow targets?
5. Immolation aura buffs.
few changes will be provided for immo aura which is definitely not for resultant gameplay since this ability is extremely situational and requires your enemies on stack on dh. In pvp it won’t work apart from enemies having tonnes of meele classes stacking together and in pve it will work against non-running adds…pretty much weak for resultant gameplay

Overall, your plans for dh fully contradicting to your own changes. Iam confident that havoc will be extremely frustrating to play, will show poor resultant gameplay, and it’s defensive/mobility abilities will definitely clash into its dps

1 Like

Please don’t make this a choice node with Mortal Dance. Just make Mortal Dance baseline like the effect is for other classes like Rising Sun kick for Windwalker and Mortal Strike for Warrior.

This will force PvP players to either pick between not dying and having an antiheal effect to close out games faster. It’s very scuffed.

I absolutely hate the tier set. Anything that has to do with throw glaive is insta garbage for me, because it’s mostly just damage stacked on top of damage with little else.

Aside that, i am not a fan of the fury generation nerf, at all, it forces you to basically run momentum or inertia, i guess inertia is fine though, i like the idea of stacking immo aura, but it shouldn’t be a capstone.

Overall, class/spec changes, ill give it a 6/10 It would be better if it wasn’t for the lower fury gen and weird talent positioning.

And why did you nerf demonic and not document it? Revert it.

Tier set, 2/10. I hate the tier set.

Another momentum opponent

Let me prephase this by saying that Im quite confident I will continue to enjoy dh. I am a fervent momentum opponent, however, so seeing how you double down on momentum, Im afraid.

Let me explain what I dislike about the momentum playstyle. I picked dh first and foremost for the class fantasy, secondly for the mobility and qol. I like having few buttons, and I love being able to dash around the battlefield if need be. Playing momentum requires me to use the mobility for damage, however, and when I need it, its not available. I tried playing momentum a couple of raid nights, and I found myself often simply walking to my volcanic heart spot, almost being overrun by paladins of all classes on their ponies. That doesnt feel good at all (well, it did for the paladin, he had a good laugh). Its especially frustrating in m+ with so many ground effects and small hitbox mobs.

Now I get that momentum is meant to be part of the DH fantasy of zooming around, but I would argue that this can be achieved with animations even. I feel quite dashy already, with a blade dance every couple of seconds. I feel dashy when I use fel rush to stay on the boss or getting far soaks last second before dashing right back, on rashok and magmorax for example. As for the latter, I lose these moments when I have to use fel rush for damage, so momentum sometimes even works against that fantasy.

As mentioned, I had hopes that with the talent rework, momentum goes away completely. I’ve given up on that hope now since you doubled down on it. That is okay, I acknowledge there are players who actually enjoy it, and I respect that. My fear is now that there are so many talents for it that you simply cant avoid some of them, making you dip into that playstyle. Please don’t let it come to that.

I would also ask you to not make the gap too high between momentum and no momentum. This tier, I already accepted my output to be below momentum players (albeit marginally) because I’d rather lose my raid slot to someone else before I play momentum. I raid mythic, and we are among the top 500 guilds afaik, so there is a certain pressure for performance, although not very much so. Luckily, Im the only dh in my guild. The other 2 stopped playing because of momentum and their unwillingness to accept a dps loss, so chaos brand is whats keeping me quite safe for the moment.

One last suggestion I want to make is for a new playstyle/fantasy idea, which is probably out of the question for 10.2, but might be pondered for the next expansion and beyond. I realize you cant simply delete the momentum package, because you’ll need a replacement. I would like to propose an aerial playstyle that focuses more on dh having wings, somewhat inspired by illidan’s air phase. Im not talking about perma flying, but maybe we could start with talents not unlike priest’s new ultimate penance? Let dhs fly into the air and unleash a 6 second channel of fel barrage or eye beams everywhere on a big cooldown. Frankly, after seeing ultimate penance, I was 70% positive that the talent rework for dh will encompass fel barrage to do a very similar thing. Imagine my face when I not only saw that it didnt, but also found momentum support =(

As for the tier set, I dont really care. i hardly know what mine does even now, its a passive get and forget, so if the tuning is right, I wont mind the next one either. Please dont make it about momentum though lol.

Finally, please add customization options for our demon forms. Same treatment as warlock pets got maybe. While youre at it, please scale the size of glaives when in demon form. I feel myself almost forced to use the warglaives of azzinoth because all others look like teeny tiny toys in the hands of the demon form and it looks ridiculous imo.

1 Like

Delete Momentum. Fel Rush should be pure utility, not a DPS maintenance buff.

If you want to give us some skill based movement ability, do something cool with The Hunt. At the moment, it’s weak and clunky. E.g. make it like druid Orbital Strike or those Evoker spells, so it’s easy to use effectively on mob packs.

This is an senseless take.

Momentum is the greatest Talent in our entire tree for one simple reason: It enables a completely different playstyle, which is far from the monotonous norm of other Melee specs. It is fast, fluid and feels amazing to play.

Momentum is the best thing that ever happened to Havoc. I picked it in Legion, and I’ll continue to pick it to this day.

just adding… would really like “Consume Soul” got a small update aswell… in M+ it do cloase to 90% overheal and only 10% actual heal…

Any chance we could get a Shield effect?. 10-15% of overheal that last 30sec or until damage away.

With the PTR build that went live moments ago:

  • DEMON HUNTER
    • Spectral Sight cooldown is now 1 minute 30 seconds (was 1 minute, and 30 seconds with rank 2 talented).
    • Spectral Sight cooldown reduced to 30 seconds (was 1 minute/30 seconds), and Haste now affects its global cooldown.
    • Demonic’s duration for Demon form reduced to 5 seconds (was 6 seconds).
    • Elysian Decree has been moved to the Demon Hunter class tree.
    • Fodder to the Flame has been moved to the Demon Hunter class tree.
    • Fodder to the Flame now increases Spectral Sight cooldown by 30 seconds in addition to previous effect.
    • The Hunt initial damage increased by 22% and damage over time damage increased by 30%.
    • Sigil of Flame now moved to Demon Hunter baseline.
    • Sigil of Flame initial damage increased by 200%.
    • New Talent: Live by the Glaive – When you parry an attack or have one of your attacks parried, restore 2% of max health and 10 Fury. This effect may occur once every 5 seconds.
    • Unnatural Malice, Relentless Pursuit, Extended Sigils, and Misery in Defeat have been removed.
    • Unrestrained Fury is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases max Fury by 20 (was 10/20).
    • Shattered Restoration is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases Shattered Soul healing by 10% (was 5/10%).
    • Illidari Knowledge is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and reduces magic damage taken by 5% (was 3/6%).
    • Will of the Illidari is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases max health by 5% (was 3/6%).
    • Rush of Chaos is now a 2-rank talent (was 1) and reduces Metamorphosis cooldown by 30/60 seconds (was 60 seconds).
    • Quickened Sigils no longer reduces cooldowns of Sigil skills.
    • Erratic Felheart now reduces cooldown of Fel Rush/Infernal Strike by 8/15% (was 10/20%)
    • Flames of Fury has been adjusted – Now a 2-rank talent (was 1). Sigil of Flame deals 35/70% increased damage and generates 1/2 Fury per target (was 2).
    • Havoc
      • Dancing with Fate is now a 1-rank talent (was 2), Blade Dance final slash damage bonus is now 25% (was 20/40%).
      • Blind Fury now increases Blade Dance’s final slash damage bonus by 25/50% (was 20/40%).
      • Blind Fury now is now a 1-rank talent (was 2), Eye Beam generates 40 Fury per second (was 20/40) and has 10% increased damage and duration (was 10/20%).
        • This change has been reverted.
      • New Talent: Demon Hide – Increases magical damage dealt by 5%, and reduces physical damage taken by 5%.
      • New Talent: Dash of Chaos – For 2 seconds after using Fel Rush, activating it again will dash back towards your initial location.
      • New Talent: Scars of Suffering– Increases Versatility by 4% and reduces threat generated by 8%.
      • New Talent: Chaotic Disposition – Each time you deal Chaos damage, there is a 7.77% chance to duplicate 33% of the damage, up to 3/7 total times. 2-rank talent.
      • Eye Beam damage increased by 15%.
      • Fel Barrage damage increased by 100%.
      • Isolated Prey now causes Immolation Aura to always critically strike (was 30% increased damage).
      • Throw Glaive now triggers Cycle of Hatred’s effect when Furious Throws is selected.
      • Soulrend is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and causes 100% of damage to be dealt over time as Chaos (was 60/120%).
      • Shattered Destiny now increases Demon form duration per 10 Fury spend (was 8).
    • Vengeance
      • New Talent: Ascending Flame – Sigil of Flame initial damage is increased by 50%. Multiple applications of Sigil of Flame may overlap.
      • New Talent: Illuminated Sigils – Sigil skills have 1 additional charge. You have 20% increased chance to parry attacks from enemies afflicted by Sigil of Flame.
      • Agonizing Flames is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases movement speed by 10% (was 10/20%) and Immolation Aura duration by 50% (was 25/50%).
      • Extended Spikes is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases duration of Demon Spikes by 2 seconds (was 1/2 seconds).
      • Burning Blood is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and increases Fire damage by 10% (was 5/10%).
      • Darkglare Boon is now a 1-rank talent (was 2) and Fel Devastation refreshes 20-40% of cooldown (was 10-20/20-40%) and refunds 20-40 Fury (was 10-20/20-40 Fury).
      • Chains of Anger now increases duration of Sigil effects by 2 seconds in addition to its previous effect.
      • Soul Carver now generates 3 soul fragments on initial strike (was 2).

Not a fan of the shattered destiny nerf.

Not a fan of the undocumented demonic nerf that we already had last week.

Other than that, seems pretty good overall.

Read the US forum.

So much more feedback there.

But it seams like you wanna stay with the TG set bonus… that will lead to a TG build most likely.

To make TG even better in ST fights then allow it to hit the same target? It will jump to 2-3 other targets but if there is non it will return and hit same again.

Stacking soulrent for total damage done.

This would make it better.

Maybe even a talent. “magnetic glave”

PLEASE do not make Mortal Dance a choice node with Deflecting Dance. This is absolutely terrible for PvP. Just make Mortal Dance baseline, it already is for other classes such as Hunters, Monks, Warriors for their key spells.

Wasn’t necessary.

The redesign for Fodder will be extremely clunky because Spectral Sight reduces your movement speed which can lead to terrible, unnecessary deaths. Spectral Sight was initially created as a mirror anti-stealth ability, meaning it slows you as you use it. If you want to keep the current design changes, REMOVE the SLOW on your character during Spectral Sight and REMOVE it cancelling out from crowd control

Suggestion: Move Fodder talent elsewhere and make it a 2 choice talent whether it works the same way as before or the new way with Spectral Sight. In certain situations, especially PvP, Fodder via Spectral sight will feel extremely bad.

This was also not necessary.

Could make this a smaller bonus and have it deplete fury slower. It just goes off way too fast for a 90 second cooldown. We are tired of small windows of damage.

The rest is pretty alright overall, but PLEASE make Mortal Dance baseline, this is literally a PVP ONLY talent, and will heavily impact choosing between survivalbility or having an antiheal effect (which nearly all melees have baseline already built into their main dmg spell).

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The choice between Momentum and Inertia is very good, and offers a clear-cut decision of playstyle.

I’m mostly concerned about Fodder to the Flame. I get the fantasy of you using Spectral Sight to detect the Demon, but this is -very- clunky to use in the middle of combat.

Wouldn’t it be wiser to enable Fodder to become a choice node with itself? So that we can pick between the passive variant, and the new active variant of the ability?

I personally would prefer to keep Fodder of the Flame precisely as it was before - getting that feeling of a Demon trying to take you down at an (in)opportune moment was very nice, and gave a good dopamine sensation during combat.

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They also overnerfed fury gen, it’s basically impossible to make a no momentum/inertia build that doesn’t suffer from massive downtime.

I don’t understand why only US Forum feedback gets responses by Blizzard…

Might be due to our “Class Dev” sits in the US and the Feedback post is atm 535 replys and 8,6k view’s

and EU is 31 Reply and 1.3k View… death just like our Class forum in EU…