Feedback: Demon Hunters

Starting with the 2 pointer nodes Blind Fury/DWF, these are the only way to path to furious gaze, but the other 2 talents they gate can be reached with 1 pointers (that are on the same row). This feels very weird to me that reaching shattered destiny capstone (and furious gaze, cycle and RH/ID) requires an additional talent point than all the others? I’m not sure the power levels of blind fury and dwf are worth the 2 points either.

The new choice node with Inner/Restless seems a bit pointless, they both give a bit of AoE damage and as mentioned previously, RH was only ever taken due to some weird (potentially ignored bug) interactions with using meta while already in demonic form for buffing most of the two deathsweeps. This to me does not make sense as a choice node, might as well delete RH altogether especially with the FR charge mattering even less with new momentum.

Glaive Tempest/Chaos Theory node does not really make sense to me either at this point with current tuning (and idk if any amount of tuning with make CT worth it even with 100% crit). Would make more sense to me to move CT to the position of RH for ST damage choices and buff it to compete. RH/GT choice node would make a bit more sense to me for Burst vs Sustained aoe.

I think the recent changes to the tree were otherwise nice. And thank god fodder is gone.

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Thinking some more, inner demon might be a better node to move to the Glaive Tempest choice node and then the middle choice node becomes CT vs RH which were at similar power levels before and often effectively a choice node for our last talent point.

Class Tree:

New throw glaive node in class tree is excellent. Been waiting a long time to get 2 charges without the slow.

Demon Muzzle and the Darkness upgrade nodes feel a bit less accessible with those 2 points being able to be put into (albeit low) damage talents. Probably fine but not sure if theres a better solution.

Hey, so far i like the latest changes in the new vengeance tree, but one more thing would be really nice: I would suggest swapping the positions of “Revel and Pain” and “Ascending Flame”. Feeling forced to go throw “Revel of Pain” just to get the longer duration on sigils feels really bad. And in my opinion it would also make much more sense that “Revel in Pain” follows up “Fiery Brand” directly, also from a powerlevel perspective.
Please consider this change and thank you for reading!

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VDH tier set season 3 - 170k overall in dummies
VDH tier set season 2 - 280k overall in dummies

Hello?

s2 set is just way much stronger. In all situations. In raids and in m+. Despite on itlvl s2 tier set bonus is just doing 110k!!! overall more and giving u 40% damage reduction with almost 100% uptime - 4 minutes fight

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Bring back Fodder to the Flame! :rage:

We’re Demon Hunters! This one ability is the one that allowed us to still slay demons and use our passive bonus from doing so!

Bring it back, not the Spectral Sight variant, but the one from Dragonflight’s launch/Shadowlands.

UHHHHH why are you removing Fodder to the Flame? Are you feeling okay Blizz?

It was fine the way it was on the PTR (now that the RNG element was gone). Please revert this godawful change.

Fodder of the Flame - goes into PvP tree for sure

As for havoc

I think fooder should be a pvp talent. I get the idea of flavor but from a gameplay perspective it felt very poor. I was especially concerned because I personally love collective anguish and would hate if fodder was simply the way to go for raids. So I say, good riddance! I wont miss fodder. The survivability aspect for pvp cant be denied though, so it would be a logical choice to put it into the pvp talents.

New fel barrage feels great. The 8 second cap make it a burst window you look forward to and it feels rewarding to pull it off. Could maybe use a more spectacular animation since you barely see it when youre in melee.

Im still not sure about the 2 points for chaotic disposition. Hitting a 7,77% chance 3 times in a row (for 1 point) is already very low, but hitting a 7,77% chance more than 3 times in a row is so low that it would have to be tuned way too high (for pvp burst possibilities) to make any sense. It feels bad having to invest a second point knowing that it doesnt do much at all only because you need to get to fel barrage.
My suggestion is make it a 1 point talent and keep it at 3 max proccs, or dont make it the only pathing to a capstone so you have a choice whether you want to invest a second point or not.

A fire inside: feels a bit wierd that the capstone talent for immolation aura is on the complete opposite side of the rest of the immolation aura talents.

Okay this tree is so much better but there is still 2 big issues with it

  1. the talents down the left side iniative, unbound chaos, tactical retreat and momentum should be on the right side of the tree to swap with trail of ruin etc it just makes way more logical sense
  2. Just make mortal dance a PvP talent, it’s never going to get picked now

Much better talent positioning, but, don’t like the nerf to demonic and shattered destiny.

You can still get 2 dances inside a demonic window, but it’s much more restrictive. Overall, don’t like this change, but at least the new talent positioning is way better.

Not a fan of how fury gen was nerfed, although you can still keep up close to 100%.

VDH feels strong with new Sigil Build on Fortie week
VDH feels very week with new Sigil Build on Tyra week - u have not enough buttons to press against bosses and u do not enough damage on packs.

Would love to see implemented s2 set Bonus into last tier Fiery Brand Talent.

The changes so far have been pretty awesome in general. However it feels as though the single target for Demon Hunters is a bit lacklustre.

Chaos strike seems to have be a shadow of what it was and the talents that boost it just don’t seem to add enough value when compared to the AOE talents. When using it in combat it feels like you are hitting with a wet noodle rather than a key ability even as annihilation is still feels like it lacks power. Improved Chaos strike feels a lot like a forgotten talent adding a small amount of damage to an already underpowered ability. Relentless onslaught also doesn’t feel like it doesn’t exist most of the time since the reduction in Chaos Strike casts during your rotation.

I think a good way to improve the single target throughput would be to change the Chaos theory talent to be a flat Crit bonus of like 10% for 8 seconds after blade dance (also removing the fury refund part) and to increase the proc rate of Relentless Onslaught to 20%.

While I enjoy the Momentum playstyle, most of the left hand talents (Initiative, Unbound Chaos, Tactical Retreat, Momentum\Inertia) all feel like they lack the power compared to their counterparts on the right hand side even on single target.

new changes for VDH are extremely good for s2 set but not for s3 set.
I m still kinda confused why are they not willing to migrate s2 set bonus into last tier Fiery Brand Talent. It covers all possible wishes about Debuff Controll Tanking for our class. Fiery Brand for Tyra week - insane Damage on % Count - and fun gameplay against bosses. Sigils for Fortie week - insane big pulls with stacking parry chance. Cmon bliz - u can do this I m sure.
VDH will be obliged in this case to have 2 sets of gear for every week. Forti - full crit + hast. Tyra - full haste + versa. Sounds incredible and still very fun to play.

While Last Resort has been lauded as the weakest cheat death ability of the tank classes, it’s hardly possible to take anymore if you want to run Soulcrush and Illuminated sigils.

I’ll just pick up a cheat death trinket instead and call it a day.

Also, being able to pick up Collective Anguish along with The Hunt and have Elysian Decree will no longer be possible as it’s a “pick two out of three” for the class tree. Feels a bit crap as the extra damage was really nice to have. I suppose having two charges for sigils make up for the damage lost to a net +/- 0. Not picking Hunt or Elysian Decree as a tank isn’t an option so CA will be for Havoc only now.

Now that I’m thinking about it and looking at the values, they seem to be a net +/- 0 in damage as well with the difference that Decree spawns globs of Fury and healing, making it possibly the better choice anyway…

Oh dear.

tested new changes yesterday and I was totally wrong. I dont know why but my DPS went from 280k to 250k. Probably Fiery Brand is spreading too fast and uptime went down.
Shorter Fel Devastation brings just more problems - 30 seconds CD - U ll have to decide if u use it during the same pull again - or u leave it for next pull - we should had our Fel Devastation always on pull
But now, in Theory it will look like: start with Demon Spikes+Sigil of Flame (25 seconds - Fel Devastation 5 seconds - Sigil of Flames (25 seconds again) - Fel Devastation 5 seoncds - next pull repeat - but Real keys are not always like this - some pulls are 40 seconds (Lust - 2 min CDs etc) - some pulls are taking more then 1 minute. I would say we dont need Darkglare Boon talent anymore we have already 40 seconds CD on Fel Devastation. And instead of obligatory Sigils of Chains we have now 1 extra Point that should go without any discussions into Demon Spikes CD Reduktion (1/2points) - itherweise we ll have a lot of troubles with Demon Spikes Uptime.

Considering Last Resort - u will not need it anymore - before changes u had to play always around 2 mins CDs, u used 3mins CD Meta on 1rst big pull, 2 mins after u r procing Last Resort - then comes boss Fight (3-4 mins Fight usually) then u send 3mins meta again - Last resort - Boss etc. But now for 2 mins CDs u have always meta - Last Resort is now almost useless - ofc if u know how to do 0 mistakes on VDH.
If u still want to have it - u have trinket from Dawn of The Infinite.

U were never able to take Soulcrush + Last Resort + Down in Flames - idk what are u talking about - it was always possible to take only 2 out of 3 last tier talents.
Hunt is absolutely not necessary for VDH - all u can get from it - 20% selfhealing for 20 seconds - which is meh pff - Damage from Hunt is also too low.
Elysian Decree + Collective Anguish - is autopick for every VDH.

2 Charges of Sigils - everything u get there - more utility for group (litterally insanely way more) and of course immortal mode with 80% dodge / parry chance but only for forti weeks and only with full gear - Tyra week will still be Fiery Brand Build together with s2 set even. Picking Illuminated Sigils throw ur DPS to the worst possible scenario - u are loosing around 80-100k in overall. This happens cause our s3 set is trash and should be redesigned ASAP. Would love to see Soulcleave deals fire damage instead and 10% damage increase after every sigil u v applied on ur target. Or something more based on Sigil Mechanics but not A Chance again to proc A something to Get A random other something… etc etc…
We told always and will repeat again and again - RNG CHANCE to get a buff or in this case to deal a damage (just increase damage maybe?) and to spawn a soul or whatever else - is always VERY VERY bad

So far - VDH looks not very promising - aspecially with prob melee meta which is forming already and aspecially with Havoc redesign

Considering your post sounding like VDH is god tier just to bait-and-switch at the end, I can sympathize.

I dearly wish Blizz would give everyone the option to choose which tier to use at any given point of the expansion at the relevant ilvl. That would be good design 101.

I’m sorry if I was unclear but picking Last Resort with two other capstone talents was never possible as you mentioned. I just wish it was because it feels like we should be able to, compared to other tanks. That’s my bad for not clarifying very well.

On the other hand, choosing between the three capstone talents in the class tree it feels worse since you can technically get them now (CA, Hunt, Fast Sigils) since the capstone isn’t The Hunt but it’s nonsense dot talent. Having all three really felt great and I’m gonna miss that greatly. I’m still gonna play The Hunt because it’s a great defensive in raiding (and CA isn’t a great defensive in raiding) so different strokes/different tokes. Damage-wise they look to end up about the same unless you pull quite a large number of mobs anyway in m+. But that’s fine. I just think it feels bad to go from having access to all of it and then having to pick two out of three.

Yeah,
The main problem for VDH atm is just his very low dps and, surprise, survivability against bosses. Stacked fraility helps ofc a lot but atm it s just not enough for tyra bosses on 22+ lvl key.
RIP Vdh?

So no word on Fodder to the Flame? Looks like it’s gone for good. Bad, boring change.

I don’t mind it tbh. It was omega clunky. Survivability through leech fits the DH relentless playstyle better.

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