Feedback: Demon Hunters

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Demon Hunters in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

First and foremost, my thanks to all the Blizzard team working hard on getting The War Within with all the changes, reworks and additions, you are doing a really, really great job!

Demon Hunters are among one of very few classes left without any reworks to their class and spec trees, and it is probably common knowledge that our class has some issues from dead talents as well as some that are deemed overpower by the community at large, resource flooding on the Vengeance side of things, etc.

Given the above, before we proceed with pouring down feedback on Demon Hunters, would it be beyond the realm of possibility for the team to reveal whether any reworks or major changes are in the pipeline for us?

If yes, it would be good to know so that we wait with any feedback that might be irrelevant as the changes start pouring in. If not, we can begin testing and assessing aspects and synergies of the current class design with the new hero specs, tier sets and endgame design.

2 Likes

Regardless of the above, I have one piece of feedback regarding Hero Classes: Please consider changing their names!

  1. The Aldrachi Reaver sounds mighty, however the Aldrachi are extinct people of which we know almost nothing, most notably that they were powerful warriors and expert users of a specific type of warglaives (the aldrachi ones, obviously, the backwards-curved). From what I understand, there is no way anyone would have found any information HOW they used it…
  2. On the flip side, Fel-Scarred does not ring of heroism, of enduring the fel, instead it sounds as if we were bruised and beaten by it. True, scars can be considered as marks of victory, but in comparison to grand names such as Elune’s Chosen, Rider of the Apocalypse, Colossus, Slayer (which is Demon Hunter class title, by the way!), Archon, Conduit of the Celetials, Herald of the Sun, Stormbringer… Fel-Scarred sounds Fel-Scared!

I’m sure there’s better names that can be used for these hero classes. The former empowers weapons with souls of fallen enemies, so maybe Soul Reaver as a more fitting name (and a tribute to a video game of old about a guy with green glowing eyes using green glowing powers…), or perhaps something short and simple similar to priest’s Archon and Oracle, or Warrior’s Slayer (which, again, is Demon Hunter class title!), such as Nemesis or Scourge?

The latter infuses his own body and soul with fel energies. I literally want to say Fel Reaver, kind of as a tribute to the sneakiest creature in game which also happens to be a massive fel-empowered machine of war found in Hellfire Peninsula (people who played TBC will remember) - a massive fel monstrosity that the “Fel-Scarred” aspires to be. However, since Reaver is sort of taken, maybe Fel Juggernaut or Demonic Juggernaut instead? The spec is about Metamorphing into a monstrosity surging with explosive demonic energies…

TL;DR:
Rename Aldrachi Reaver and Fel-Scarred as the first one barely relates to a Demon Hunter and the latter doesn’t sound heroic. I suggest Soul Reaver and Fel Juggernaut instead.

2 Likes

Good morning.

First and foremost, I’d like to link to another thread I did on the US forums, since a lot I want to talk about is already written there: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-about-havoc-for-tww/1862915

After testing in Beta I have extended my feedback to the following:

  • Cycle of Hatred builds feel atrocious to play with Inertia and Essence Break. Everything desyncs constantly. What’s even worse is that we are going to be forced to play it because there’re no alternatives, as the glaive talents are excessively weak.
    Please, reconsider the purpose of this talent going forward.
  • Glaive talents have no purpose at all with nothing propping them up and both hero talents emphasizing the usage of either Chaos Strike (Demonic Appetite, getting more souls for Aldrachi Reaver) or Eye Beam (Cycle of Hatred, more Demonic windows for more Demonsurges for Fel Scarred).

Now, I have more feedback about Aldrachi Reaver, I believe this talent needs a lot of work still.

  • Reaver’s Glaive itself is based on the damage of Throw Glaive. Throw Glaive does no damage, by extension Reaver’s Glaive does no damage either. After testing in dummies for close to five minutes, even in situations with cleave, Reaver’s glaive damage is laughably low. This sounds incredibly wrong to me, this should be the high of the hero talent. This is in part caused by the low damage of TG builds in general, which is something that should be looked at.
  • Most of the talents that affect TG (Soulrend, for example) do not work with Reaver’s Glaive. In fact, I think the only talent that works is Accelerated Glaive. Whether this is a bug or not, I don’t know, but also looks is incredibly antisinergystic.
  • All the damage this tree provides are focused on two things, Reaver’s Mark and Art of the Glaive. All the other nodes (Preemptive Strike, for example) feel like fodder, and serve no purpose.
  • It is extremely worrying that Reaver’s Mark, after the changes to it’s duration, can be close to 100% uptime on a single target. It’s a 30% damage amplification. There’s absolutely nothing that can compete in Single Target with this option in the Fel Scarred tree. In fact, it’s so strong that it trivializes everything that Aldrachi offers to the point that the optimal way of playing is always doing exactly the same thing (RG → BDance → CS).
    On top of this, Reaver’s mark being a single target debuff will create friction with Havoc’s niche, which is doing AoE while doing ST and being good at prio damage. It’s basically a discount Nemesis, and that’s something that was hated with passion in the past.
    I would reconsider reworking Reaver’s Mark to do something else instead, else this tree is going to be extremely binary and boring.
  • Souls are still an incredibly clunky and wonky resource to play around, and we as Havocs would like to avoid it whenever possible.
  • Openers are insanely clunky in the current iteration. Havoc only has access to 5 souls on pull (Soul Sigils + Sigil of Spite and Sigil of Flame). With how strong Reaver’s Mark is as its current tuning, it feels incredibly bad to start your opener without having it up prior to that.
    Please, give us access to a talent that allows us to have a Reaver’s Glaive on pull.

Fel Scarred in general feels fine, but the friction from cycle still applies to this build.

I’d finally like to mention that visually speaking both talents still feel undercooked, with nothing impactful happening when the big moments of those trees happen (Reaver’s Glaive and Demonsurge).

Thank you for reading.

3 Likes

Speaking as a Havoc point of view, Aldrachi Reaver feels very underwhelming to play. Without all the right talents, it takes a while for Reaver’s Glaive to become active, to the point where I’ve seen the buff run out before you get another fragment when RNG is particularily bad.
When it finally does become active, it’s visually disappointing to the point where it’s barely noticable, and you’re quickly back to just waiting for soul fragments to pop once more.

Fel-scarred feels smoother, but boring to play. The new icons during metamorphosis cooldown are fun, but apart from that, nothing noticable is happening visually.

Add the lack of any changes to the demon hunter class, and compare it to other classes that get major visual upgrades like mage, priest and warlock, then it feels disappointing to play the current demon hunter hero talents the way they currently are.

2 Likes

Just curious, is anyone else noticing that DH at times appears to move slower than other classes ?

Was in a dungeon and several times purely randomly the whole party moved faster than I could, with no explicable reason for it.

1 Like

First of all I would like to acknowledge all the good work being put into development and improving havoc.
Having said that, by playing with Aldrachi Reaver a bit on beta the biggest issue I have with it is that it completely messes up with our class tree and forces us to take sigil of spite and soul sigils, and shoe horns us into a very very static build in the class tree with absolutely no chance for moving around points for utility, and we are potentionally dropping darkness as havoc which honestly feels so bad because we are REQUIRED to take any ability which increases the number of souls generated to keep the buff from reaver’s glaive, and making any other choice is a straight up dps loss.
Another issue, while every other spec in the game is generally moving away from button bloat, extra cognitive overload and unnecessary complexity, havoc seems to be moving in the opposite direction with us having to maintain buffs (reaver’s glaive/momentum etc.) and just managing dmg windows that includes multiple buffs from multiple talents and sources (initiative, essence break, inertia, and multiple other buffs from hero tree) to do any meaningful damage. Not to mention that by playing Aldrachi Reaver we are adding sigil of spite on a 1 min cd to the rotation in addition to throw glaive obviously, and potentially adding sigil of misery in our dps rotation in scenarios where enemies are affected by it, since with soul sigils it will generate souls from those enemies

1 Like

Dear Blizzad,

i want do submit my feadback from Aldrachi reaver Havoc.

HAVOC ALDRACHI REAVER FEEDBACK:

Well were do i start with this atrocity…

As a multi class player in the higher achacalon of CE raiding im no stranger to UH DK and Arance Mage Openders and palyed both sepcs in prgress raiding but as is stands now Aldrachi Reaver has some next level degeneracy wen it comes to its opener a 22 Button opener to be exact (and still being optimized so it could be even more) that forces you to lineup 6 diffrent DMG+ Cycles for a 4 sec burst window… thahta lso has you to afk wait for you CDS to come up mid opener.

as said above i play DPS DK and all Mage specs and also follow both of those classes closely, both of degenerate opener specs (Arcane and UH) got reworked to move them away from its bloded openers with the reasoning “we want to remove unnecessary Compexetly and confusion and move away from this design”

now how in the fk did you drop a 22 Button opner Tree that has to lineup 6 amp windows to being able to dps for 4 sec and then do tank dps afterwards after saying that you want to remove “unnecessary Compexetly”?

just pls rework this mess now, i know you will have to do it aynways in 11.1

as for Solutions:

  1. Make Reaver’s Glaive itself apply a 30% Reaver’s Mark and have it also grant both Thrill buffs, remove the Blade and Chaos Strike enhancements! (this is the biggest offender)

  2. Change Soul Fragments to Fury spent for Havoc Demon Hunter for Art of the Glaive, havoc as neither skills to guarateed generate or consume Souls, you have to run arround like a monkey and colect them (and also prey that rng was with you and you get any in the frist place)

  3. Make Reavers Glaive inpactfull and not just a buff button, you could remove the BD and CS enhancements alltogheter and make the Glave itself a DPS button you could line up with your ESB window

Eddit: The 19.06 Aldrachi Reaver chages were some kind of sick joke cuz nothing really changed functionally, some numbers were adjusted but the majority of the talent changes were just shuffling the descriptions and nodes around.

2 Likes

Hi Blizzard,

Today’s nerf that takes out double utility sigils is good for the game, for sure, but recent nerfs to Sigil of Silence alongside with Cycle of Binding on live servers make this talents questionable.

Even on live servers Cycle of Binding (after nerfs) is not used always which is good, in some cases you need one set of talents in other cases you might choose something else, for example on Tyra weeks you don’t really need that much crowd control.

Even before today’s nerf I’ve tested VDH on beta with new tier set and Hero talents, especially M+ and haven’t really found Illuminated Sigils talent useful enough, mainly because going into TWW we are losing DF Season 3 tier set, that was the main reason you consider to talent into Illuminated Sigils and Cycle of Binding after Sigil of Silence and Cycle initial nerfs.

To conclude, with all changes combined Silence Sigil and Cycle of Binding become really weak talents and there won’t be any real cases where you consider to talent into Illuminated sigils or Cycle neither in Raid nor in M+, even if future tier sets in TWW will somehow interact with our sigils CDR.

So I kindly ask you to think about reverting Sigil of Silence and Cycle of Binding nerfs.

1 Like

Can you please give Demon Hunter class can flying like Dracthyr in The War Within?

Really please… They had wings. Many we fans Illidan, he can flying himself.
Why players’s Demon Hunter can’t? Suck for gliding only. Let we fun flying!

If you update Demon Hunter class can flying from wings. I would big thank you!

2 Likes

Two weeks has passed since I asked and we haven’t received any update, which is a shame. I understand that you might not release any information if it is uncertain if any rework or talent reshuffle may be finalized prior to TWW release, so sharing any information is off the table at the moment. I get it, that’s how it works in corporate world.

Anyhow, given how things are currently, I would like to share my feedback on how Demon Hunters look in comparison to other classes now that majority received their reworks.

The below is from primarily PvE perspective, with a stronger emphasis on M+ content.


General Class Features

Compared to most classes we actually have much fewer abilities in general, however that doesn’t make Demon Hunters feel any worse. We actually have a very good toolkit consisting of strong ST, Cleave and AoE abilities and viable utility in form of Stun, Incapacitate, Offensive Dispel, and Slows. On top of that, we have a guaranteed Raid spot due to Chaos Brand.

There aren’t many issues with general class features for DH, but it doesnt mean it cannot be improved.

One of the improvements DH would benefit from is an update to their resources.

  1. Fury - our primary resource that we honestly tend to ignore. Especially for Vengeance, we tend to ignore it during AoE as Spirit Bomb takes priority and its Fury cost is meaningless given how much we can generate.
  • Fury costs and generation could probably benefit from some minor update so that it’s more meaningful in terms of generating and expending it, especially in ST vs AoE situations for VDH.
  1. Soul Fragments - the secondary resource that isn’t tracked as one, instead being a buff.
  • For Vengeance, this acts as a proper resource that fuels our self-healing and acts as an AoE damage enabler (Spirit Bomb).
  • For Havoc, until now, it was just a random proc that created a world object to walk over that granted healing and Fury.
    With the addition of Aldrachi Reaver hero class, Soul Fragments becomes an enabler for Reaver’s Glaive.

The last point is the most important here, because it forces Havoc to move around to pick up the souls. Havoc already has a lot of movement-related abilities - for some, too many, making it especially problematic when positioning is key.

Suggestion:

  1. Make Soul Fragments an actual class resource similar to Combo Points, trackable on Player Unitframe and Nameplate, rather than being a buff (which often ends up being a WeakAura), and remove the ability to consume them by stepping into them in the world.
  2. For Havoc, make Chaos Strike consume Soul Fragment, granting self-healing and refund a portion of Fury spend.
  • This way Havoc will no longer need to look around if there are any Souls floating around and/or shimmy to pick them up, removing the being forced to move to benefit from this feature.

Another, smaller aspect of the class that would benefit from an update is the group defensive CD that DHs have - Darkness. Notably it can be very powerful in M+ due to the doubled effect, but even in Raid with a little bit of luck it can be of use. The problem is that it’s effect is a literal feast or famine effect that with real bad luck is an ability that does nothing for anyone. For a 5 min CD (3 min if we invest another talent point) it really feels bad.

  • Darkness should offer the usual damage reduction, something in the 10-15% ballpark - probably less than DK’s AMZ or Priest’s PW:B, but still offer some defensive power in that takes effect when it fails to prevent being hit by a damaging event.
    • It could easily be moved to a capstone position to accomodate it being buffed.

Lastly, Vengeance Demon Hunter appeared to have been designed as a somewhat similar tank to Blood Death Knight, with self-healing being part of spec identity (even if to a lesser degree). However, apart from the Shattered Souls passive, the self-healing on VDH abilities (Soul Cleave and Fel Devastation) is now a bad tuning joke. In TWW Beta, at 610 ilvl (9.5M HP):

  • Soul Cleave base heal amounts to a whooping 61k with 2 Soul Fragments available, or ~0.65%. Yes, less than 1% of the total HP.
  • Fel Devastation heals for 330k, which barely amounts to 3.5% of the total HP.

I reckon that there is a new direction with healing (especially self-healing on non-healer specs) and as such I would expect self-healing to be low, but these 2 abilities could have their healing removed completely and nobody would notice anyway. So I think that either these should be removed, or if the VDH is to remain a somewhat self-healing tank, this baseline healing should be tuned way up to make them noticable and worthwhile. If not, the issues with VDH talents (that I note later in the post) will persist, keeping them dead and forgotten.


Core Tree

Generally the Core Tree is not as bad as some other classes had (or still have, looking at you Shamans), however compared to the reworked talents of hybrid role classes, especially Monks, Demon Hunters still quite a few dead talents, either for one or both of the specs.

Gate 1:

  • Vengeful Bonds is a very niche/PvP ability that often isn’t worth putting points in as other talents offer more benefits.
  • Improved Sigil of Misery could probably be just made baseline, given it doesn’t make SoM more powerful to warrant a talent point expenditure.
  • Shattered Restoration feels more like a talent to pick on the way to enable Charred Warblades than being worthwhile on its own.
  • Aldrachi Design (and the following Live by the Glaive in gate 2) are every much Vengeance talents that Havoc should never pick in any circumstance, so should probably be moved to VDH class tree and replaced with ones that benefit both specs instead.

Gate 2:

  • Chaos Fragments would actually be really good if not for the fact that VDH already has multiple ways to easily generate Soul Fragments, and Havoc doesn’t really benefit from them that much beyond Aldrachi Reaver.
  • Disrupting Fury and Swallowed Anger are unused due to the fact Fury generation is plentiful and these effects require specific situations to occur to activate.

Suggestion:

  • Make Soul Fragments an actual class resource similar to Combo Points, trackable on Player Unitframe and Nameplate, rather than being a buff (which often ends up being a WeakAura), and remove the ability to consume them by stepping into them in the world.
  • For Havoc:
    • Blade Dance generates one Soul Fragment if it hits at least one enemey (two Fragments during Metamorphosis).
    • Demon’s Bite / Demon Blades has a small chance to generate one Soul Fragment (~30% for Demon’s Bite, ~15% for Demon Blades).
    • Chaos Strike consumes one Soul Fragment, granting its self-healing and refunds a portion of Fury spend (same amount as currently it generates).
    • The amount of Fragments required to activate Art of the Glaive can be increased to compensate.

This way Havoc will no longer need to look around if there are any Souls floating around and/or shimmy to pick them up, removing the being forced to move to benefit from this featurem, and will give them more control over generation of this resource.

This would open possibilities for future interactions or making other abilities cost Soul Fragments, for example:

  • Fel Barrage or Essence Break could require or increase their damage/effect based on amount of Soul Fragments spent, similar to Vengeance’s Spirit Bomb. This could even allow to remove/reduce CD of Essence Break, increasing rotation interaction (though tuning would be required).
  • A new defensive talent idea - when the Havoc Demon Hunter takes damage that brings their HP below 35% (with a 1-2 minutes CD), a part of their soul is ripped in form of a Demon Soul Fragment. This would allow the HDH to Chaos Strike (or use another Soul Fragment spender) to self heal and buff their damage temporarily via Shattered Souls.* Felfire Haste is not a bad talent, but its position and pathing is too off for it to be a meaningful choice.
  • To an extent, the same applies to Pursuit for Vengeance, as Havoc picks this talent often mostly due to pathing and the need to spend points to enable gate 3.
  • Infernal Armor is really great - but only for Vengeance, for Havoc it just is just a tax that enables Will of the Illidari and the path toward Sigil of Spite, as there is no other way to reach it, except the next talent on the list…
  • Lost in Darkness is in my personal opinion the most sore point in the core tree - it’s usability is a niche within a niche of PvP, and to add salt to the wound its is the only way to get Precise Sigils, a talent that a lot of people would love to pick. However, Lost in Darkness is so bad that nearly nobody ever gets Precise Sigils.
    • I’ve seen this talent in some Havoc builds, but again its only due to the fact there aren’t that many talents useful for Havoc and it’s cheaper to pay 1 point for it than put 2 points into Infernal Armor, both of which offer zero PvE benefit for the DPS spec.

Gate 3

  • Actually, gate 3 is really good in terms of talents. What is not good is pathing - unless certain nodes were picked in gate 3, there might not be a path available for us to pick Sigil of Spite or Collective Anguish.
    • Aldrachi Reaver Havoc DH will actually want to get Sigil of Spite now to get Reaver’s Glaive more often, but getting there exists only through 2 talents that are useless to them (see above).
  • Quickened Sigils feel like they should be baseline.

Vengeance Spec Tree

In my experience the main issue with the tree is very restrictive pathing that makes certain talent are unused not just due to them being low in value, of also due to requiring weird pathing to reach - there just isn’t enough connections between talents and it feels like you must commit to a certain path to get to the capstones you need. Literally, entering gate 2 from left side makes it to get majority of gate 3 right side talents. Also, majority of talents related to Fel Devastation are abandoned and forgotten due to Fel Devastation’s healing being nonexistent, and its actual use is to activate Metamorphosis (and do some uncapped AoE damage).

Gate 1:

  • The choice node of Shear Fury/Fracture… is not really a choice node. Fracture takes the cake and leaves the other dead and rotten. At this point Shear could just be removed, unless Fracture gets a rework to play differently, meaningfully affecting the rotation and not be just much better Shear.
  • The choice node of Roaring Fire/Sigil of Silence appears to be absolutely off.
    • Sigil of Silence is a VERY powerful tool that is hard to pass for M+, and it would probably be better off being in a choice node with Sigil of Chains.
    • Roaring Fire healing increase actually sounds really good on paper,
  • Same issue applies to Ruinous Bulwark which increases the healing of Fel Devastion by 10% and creates a miniscule absorb shield.
  • Retaliation is one of the tank talents that exist for other classes, however it is tuned so poorly that it’s not worth considering.
    • The talent requires Demon Spikes to be active to benefit from it.
    • In comparison, Blood Death Knight’s Shattered Bones deal also has a requirement (standing in your own Death and Decay, as they should have Bone Shield charges up at all times anyway) and it deals more damage that is magical, so not reduced by armor.
    • Closer in comparison, Warrior’s Tough as Nails deals twice the damage of VDH’s Retaliation, actually ignores armor, and can occur outside of Shield Block ability.

Gate 2:

  • Feast of Souls suffers from its healing being scaled off AP resulting in negligible result, same as Soul Cleave’s baseline healing (see the last paragraph in the General Class Features section above).
  • Choice node for Soul Barrier/Bulk Extraction, as well as neighboring Revel in Pain, have so much potential for defensive options, however other throughput talents being present in this gate and the poor tuning of these talents make them abandoned.
  • Painbringer is a great talent, though in my opinion it doesn’t deserve to cost 2 points.
  • The last row of gate 2 pathing is very restrictive, significantly contributing to certain talents being unusable.

Gate 3:

Similar to Core Tree, Vengeance Tree’s gate 3 is filled with great and powerful talents. I think this design is great, as you really want to reach and get as many of them, and there’s meaningful choice to be made depending on content you’re doing. I really have only 2 issues with this part:

  • Last Resort is only reachable through Feed the Demon, that eats up 2 points, making it very expensive. I think a lot of VDH would love to have it in our arsenal in all types of content, we just simply can’t afford to spend 3 out of 10 points we get in G3 to acquire it.
  • Soulcrush is a capstone talent that allows Frailty to stack, and I believe this should be baseline for Frailty. The main reason I believe so is because it violates two rules that Kaivax asks for in Hero Talent feedback:

I realize Soulcrush is not a hero talent, but the same principles apply. Since it allows Frailty to stack it is very powerful for ALL types of content. It is very easy to maintain multiple stacks on several targets. At just 4 stacks, Soulcrush provides a whopping 16% damage reduction, 16% more damage dealt to the target, and healing yourself for 40% of all damage you deal to them. I firmly believe that anyone that doesn’t take this talent doesn’t really understand how VDH works. As such, I think this talent/feature should be added to Frailty baseline.

1 Like

Fel-Scarred Hero Talents

As Vengeance main, I absolutely adore the design of this tree, one that resonates strongly with the tanking spec. The keystone talent does what I always thought Metamorphosis should have done for Vengeance - what it as it does for Havoc: a damage boost to core abilities, thematic with the demon form. Demonsurge explosions are a nice cherry on top (even if it is awkward sitting with 2 stacks of a buff you can’t benefit from, but the base cake is just delicious, at least for Vengeance. For Havoc it might not look great at the first glance, but the extra HP will help with unavoidable damage, and the Armor will help in PvP and in the instances where we just hit too hard and steal trash aggro from the tank.

It is obvious the keystone aims to make both Metamorphosis forms more similar to each other (making Havoc’s Meta tankier and Vengeance’s fightier). I think Havoc version should get a buff, however: It should be closer to Vengeance with like 25-30% HP increase and 100% more Armor (VDH Meta gives 50% HP and 200% Armor). It’s not gonna make Havoc able to be a true tank, but at least will give a bigger “Face the demon within!” moment.

  • Choice node 1:
    • Wave of Debilitation is a nice dungeon tool with dual purpose - if you want to kite adds, it helps you buy time to get away; if you don’t, it makes them smack you less.
    • Pursuit of Angriness is one weird talent. However, if you get your Fury up and decide to run without spending it, you can make some distance. I just don’t see why it would be worth given DHs are already one of fastest, most mobile classes. Plus I hate the name.

Wave of Debilitation will likely be an autopick for M+ and be useless in raids. Even if the attack speed decrease applies regardless of stun, Chaos Nova isn’t picked for most boss fights. As is the case with several other classes, the choice node offers unrelated options.

An example of a good choice nodes are all 3 of Aldrachi Reaver’s since they offer effects that affect one ability (how Vengeful Retreat operates and what extra benefit Reaver’s Glaive offers) or one aspect of the game (defensiveness, choosing either damage reduction or increased self-healing).

  • Choice node 2:
    • Set Fire to the Pain looks really good from the theme and the benefit it offers, and feels like an autopick that will help smooth the damage intake, even if only slightly.
    • Improved Soul Rending might need to get looked at, given the recent interview indicates Leech is on the chopping board in effectiveness.

If Leech will become less potent, Improved Soul Rending might not see much use, as core tree’s Soul Rending is an already expensive 2 point talent given its selfhealing contribution is already quite low compared to other tools in our disposal.

  • Choice node 3:
    • Student of Suffering looks very powerful in hands of Havoc, who generally likes Mastery, but even for Vengeance it could be worthwhile, though it might require a bump in VDH mastery power, since it’s not even close to being our favourite stats. Also, the second benefit in trickle Fury generation is nice, though again our Fury income isn’t problematic, especially for Vengeance.
    • Flamebound is the preferred one here for me, since it will scale well with our (my?) love for Crit (especially in M+ builds), even more so when combined with Volatile Flameblood and Havoc’s Ragefire builds.

Another choice node where two talents offer somewhat unrelated options, but I’m not sure if Student of Suffering would be balanced well to work off of Immolation Aura

I read that some players not happy with the following talents, but I personally consider Enduring Torment and Monster Rising a great design - we don’t spend all our time in demon form, so it’s good to have benefits offered by the hero talents.

Violent Transformation is a decently strong talent that helps with burst AoE when we activate Metamorphosis. For Vengeance we get similar treatment as Havoc where our “Eye Beam” is reset, while Havoc gets free use of Immolation Aura that feeds nicely into builds involving Ragefire and A Fire Inside.

Burning Blades for Vengeance make me dislike Spirit Bomb even more, and I really wish Soul Cleave had uncapped targets so I can forgo using it… But then I wouldn’t get the full benefit of Demonsurge. Still, it’s a nice and (again) thematic damage bonus.

The Demonic Intensity capstone further increases our AoE burstiness and cranks up VDH Meta as DPS cooldown even further.

Really, the only thing I dislike about this Hero Talent is its name - it doesn’t have a heroic vibe. I want to be a Fel Juggernaut, not Sca(r)red!

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Aldrachi Reaver Hero Talents

I see this tree as more methodical in nature when compared to its counterpart, with a possibly increased difficulty curve, but with a more focused profile (ST and Cleave). The newest iteration of the tree makes it less intrusive, which is good.

Initially I thought of the Fury of the Aldrachi and Reaver’s Mark as exclusive, but I then realized they offer a certain bonus to the abilities at all times, and depending how you sequence your follow up abilities, you get double effect depending if you prefer a ST or AoE bonus, so I actually think it’s a good design that also creates “tuning knobs” for the tree in case one or the other lags behind (or gets too powerful).

All three choice nodes actually look like an actual choice. As mentioned in Fel-Scarred’s comments, each node offers choice for the same aspect of the game:

  • Choice node 1: Evasive Action/Unhindered Assault - both enhance Vengeful Retreat, so they stay within same specialization of movement, but offer different values.

    • In this instance I find Unhindered Assault to be a clear winner, especially for Havoc that can benefit from it during Fury draught (you not only get the instant Fury from Felblade being reset and free to use, but combined with Tactical Retreat talent you also get further Fury generated over time).
    • In comparison, Evasive Action looks more like a niche PvP tool, since getting more distance as HDH is not hard with Fel Rush, and the 3 second window is too restrictive to get any benefit from Tactical Retreat or Initiative talents, and make for a wonky Momentum activator.
  • Choice node 2: Army Unto Oneself/Incorruptible Spirit - both offer defensive power.

    • Army Unto Oneself was recently buffed (from physical to all damage reduction) making it much better, especially for Havoc. Combined with Unhindered Assault we get a small on-demand defensive option.
    • Incorruptible Spirit could be a bit better, maybe also offering damage resistance when consuming a Soul Fragment, or if Soul Fragments were more readily available (see my suggestion at the bottom).
  • Choice node 3: Keen Engagement/Preemptive Strike - both talents operate off the same ability (sort of).

    • Preemptive Strike reads that it increases Throw Glaive damage - I hope if that Reaver’s Glaive stays related to Throw Glaive, then gets fixed to benefit from all Throw Glaive talents and effects, including this hero talent.
    • Reaver’s Glaive helps HDH prepare for the follow up combo by adding extra Fury, but might be a bit of a waste for Vengeance who generally has no issues with that resource generation. If Reaver’s Glaive will benefit from all Throw Glaive talents, then it will help offset Throw Glaive cost imposed by the Furious Throws talent.

Remaining talents are mostly passive effects that help with maintaining Soul Fragment generation for fuelling Art of the Glaive (Aldrachi Tactics and Wounded Quarry) and general tuning knobs that further increase Aldrachi Reaver’s value in ST situations (buffing Chaos Strike via Incisive Blade and Warblade’s Hunger).

The last part about buffing Chaos Strike actually causes me to consider this talent tree to be less valuable for Havoc in M+ environment. Aldrachi Reaver adds a new mechanic to track during combat (Reaver’s Glaive) which is a minor friction in an often hectic environment, while Fel-Scarred counterpart just seamlessly works with the standard rotation. This could lead to tuning issues where either FS is tuned low due to it being available all the time, or AR being buffed and as a result further exacerbating the division of the two DH hero talent trees as “the AoE one and the ST one

A few notes on Aldrachi that I found minor issues with - one from thematic perspective, the other from mechanical one:

Firstly, I want to point out that I am not sure that a Demon Hunter class is one that is interested in throwing their weapons too often. I personally believe Art of the Glaive keystone ability Reaver’s Glaive should be activated through Felblade, not Throw Glaive, making it a mini Hunt ability that charges the enemy. Reaver’s Glaive states it begins a well-practiced pattern of glaivework making follow up melee attacks stronger, so why does the first ability involves throwing one of your weapons away?

Secondly, the activation of the keystone is fine for Vengeance, but feels completely off for Havoc given that the Soul Fragments aren’t a proper resource and that we need pick up certain core tree talents in gate 3 (including one capstone) to get control on how we generate them (outside of a few hero talents present in Aldrachi tree).

Suggestion (listed in my previous post, added here for completeness):

  • Make Soul Fragments an actual class resource similar to Combo Points, trackable on Player Unitframe and Nameplate, rather than being a buff (which often ends up being a WeakAura), and remove the ability to consume them by stepping into them in the world.
  • For Havoc:
    • Blade Dance generates one Soul Fragment if it hits at least one enemey (two Fragments during Metamorphosis).
    • Demon’s Bite / Demon Blades has a small chance to generate one Soul Fragment (~30% for Demon’s Bite, ~15% for Demon Blades).
    • Chaos Strike consumes one Soul Fragment, granting its self-healing and refunds a portion of Fury spend (same amount as currently it generates).
    • The amount of Fragments required to activate Art of the Glaive can be increased to compensate.

This way Havoc will no longer need to look around if there are any Souls floating around and/or shimmy to pick them up, removing the being forced to move to benefit from this featurem, and will give them more control over generation of this resource.

This would open possibilities for future interactions or making other abilities cost Soul Fragments, for example:

  • Fel Barrage or Essence Break could require or increase their damage/effect based on amount of Soul Fragments spent, similar to Vengeance’s Spirit Bomb. This could even allow to remove/reduce CD of Essence Break, increasing rotation interaction (though tuning would be required).
  • A new defensive talent idea - when the Havoc Demon Hunter takes damage that brings their HP below 35% (with a 1-2 minutes CD), a part of their soul is ripped in form of a Demon Soul Fragment. This would allow the HDH to Chaos Strike (or use another Soul Fragment spender) to self heal and buff their damage temporarily via Shattered Souls.
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Havoc Aldrachi Reaver is in a bad state. In this post I will summarize the issues as I see them.

Major issues:

  • The inertia opener
    When playing with inertia the ideal opener causes multiple problems, some of which will be elaborated on in other sections of this post.
    It requires two uses of Reaver’s Glaive, one to set up the Thrill of the Fight buff and Reaver’s Mark debuff, and one to enhance the Death Sweep and Annihilation used later during burst damage windows. This opener ends up becoming very long, and has many global cooldowns which are required to be executed in a specific order at specific times, with large damage penalties for any deviation. This makes the use of any other global cooldown abilities such as chaos nova excessively costly, as well as punishing the demon hunter for anything they need to respond to in the first ~15 seconds of a pull. It’s also just kind of a lot to remember on a difficult boss that has other things going on. These issues are also repeated every time metamorphosis is up.
    Proposed solution
    Redesign the effects from Reaver’s Glaive so they don’t naturally disconnect from each other. The most simple route to this outcome is having Reaver’s Mark and Thrill of the Fight activate when using Reaver’s Glaive.

  • The rise of no mover
    The recent change to Incisive Blade makes Chaos Strike an excessively powerful ability. This puts a lot of pressure on demon hunters to play builds which focus on casting as many Chaos Strikes as possible, at the cost of gameplay. Builds focused on sustained damage talents like Shattered Destiny and Cycle of Hatred are outperforming others with a significant gap. Builds focusing on burst damage talents like Essence Break and Inertia simply can not compete, so the gameplay of these talents is lost, effectively forcing havoc to become a less interesting spec. It also feels like a significant gameplay diversity loss to me for the one melee spec in the game that focuses on movement in the way Havoc does to be encouraged to ignore it. I know Havoc has not had a damage tuning pass yet, but I have to work with what is in front of me and without any stated goals from the developers I am forced to assume this will not change without feedback.
    Proposed solution
    Remove the Chaos Strike damage buff from Incisive Blade, fold the damage into other abilities.

  • Talent requirements
    Playing Aldrachi Reaver without The Hunt is simply not an option. In addition to this, when playing an Inertia build, Sigil of Spite and Soul Sigils also become a requirement as there is no other way to have enough soul fragments for the opener. To make this possible we are required to spend 1 point in Quickened Sigils, 2 points in Flames of Fury, 1 point in Sigil of Spite, 1 point in Soul Sigils, 2 points in Rush of Chaos and 1 point in The Hunt. This is 8 points out of 11 that we have available for the final section of the class tree just to make the build work, we only have 3 left! In organized gameplay there is also a lot of pressure put on any Demon Hunter to take Darkness, leaving us with very little freedom to make decisions about where talents can go. Even if we don’t take Darkness, Collective Anguish can never fit into an Inertia build despite being in a different tree.
    Proposed solution
    Having access to a guaranteed use of Reaver’s Glaive on the pull is good, attaching it to a capstone class tree talent is not. There are any number of other abilities this could have been attached to, or we could simply generate the Art of the Glaive buff naturally when out of combat. In addition to this, many other specs have had talent requirements reduced, often in the form of converting 2 point talents to only require 1. There are many cases where build options for Havoc could be diversified by receiving the same treatment.

  • Reaver’s Glaive
    This ability simply does too many things, and some of them feel very confused.
    The ability enhancements
    Reaver’s Glaive enhances the next use of Chaos Strike and Blade Dance, adding extra functionality to the abilities. Chaos Strike will apply Reaver’s Mark, causing the target to take increased damage, and Blade Dance will gain extra slashes of damage. In addition to this, the first enhanced ability will deal 10% extra damage and the second will deal 20% extra damage. Why are we being encouraged to use Blade Dance first? Reaver’s Mark becomes more powerful if Chaos Strike is used after Blade Dance, which ends up resulting in more damage dealt, but it is simply unintuitive. Intuitive logic demands the ability which applies the debuff that makes your target take more damage be used first, and the ability that hits hard be used second, but in practice this is suboptimal.
    Proposed Solution
    If we are supposed to use Blade Dance first and Chaos Strike second after enhancing them, have Blade Dance apply Reaver’s mark and Chaos strike gain a large amount of extra damage from the enhancement. On the other hand, if Chaos Strike applying Reaver’s mark is considered important functionality, allow it to be used first without losing damage.

  • Three buffs in a trenchcoat
    Reaver’s glaive contributes to our damage in several different ways but three main ones, those being the ability enhancements, the Thrill of the Fight buff(s), and Reaver’s Mark. This is kind of excessive on a spec that already has several other short duration buffs to stack, but it also feels bad to use unless you have multiple Reaver’s Glaives available, which is a major contributing factor to the Inertia opener situation. As things stand the extra damage from the enhanced abilities comes first and the damage buff and debuff come later. You can not have enhanced abilities benefit from Reaver’s Mark or Thrill of the Fight unless you have multiple uses of Reaver’s Glaive available back to back, and even then the first set of enhanced abilities will always lack buffs or debuffs, and the final set of buffs and debuffs will never have enhanced abilities benefit from them. Why design things like this? Reaver’s Glaive didn’t need to buff us in so many different ways in the first place, and it definitely didn’t need to buff us in ways that inherently disconnect such that they can not benefit from each other.
    Proposed solution
    Remove Reaver’s Mark and Thrill of the Fight and fold the damage into ability enhancements.

Minor issues:

  • Art of the Glaive duration
    The duration on art of the glaive is excessively punishing, it can time out based on nothing beyond simple bad luck, and when the buff is lost it starts over again from a single stack when consuming the next soul. This is exacerbated by encounters with downtime, effectively shortening the window available to refresh the buff or leaving none at all.
    Proposed solution
    Make Art of the Glaive a durationless buff.

  • Art of the Glaive Stacking
    When pooling Art of the Glaive stacks to enable multiple uses of Reaver’s Glaive within a short duration, the ability does not function as expected. Enabling the use of Reaver’s Glaive again after using it always requires another soul fragment to be consumed, even if there are sufficient Art of the Glaive stacks without it.
    Proposed Solution
    Enable the use of Reaver’s Glaive after casting Reaver’s Glaive if the number of Art of the Glaive stacks is 6 or more.

  • Casting Reaver’s Glaive
    Reaver’s glaive replaces Throw Glaive keybinds when Art of the Glaive stacks are six or greater. This causes two main issues. As Reaver’s Glaive is off the global cooldown, any unintended double tap of the keybind when not on global cooldown will also result in Throw Glaive being cast. In addition to this, casting Throw Glaive while at six or greater stacks of Art of the Glaive is not possible unless affected by the issue mentioned previously, which I assume is unintended.
    Proposed Solution
    Put Reaver’s Glaive in the spellbook so it can be bound and used independently from Throw Glaive. Independent use of Reaver’s Glaive can somewhat be achieved by making a macro for it, but the macro will not display the tooltip or icon unless Reaver’s Glaive is available, which feels amateurish.

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I’ve been playing most melee classes in the beta and the below is my feedback for DH Havoc:

Aldrachi

  • Keeping track of where the souls fragments are is a nightmare; especially since there is no facilitation to collect them.

  • Current DPS rotations disincentivize the usage of talents such as Essence Break, Inertia, Momentum and others… which makes the gameplay rather bland.

Fel Scarred

  • Straight up just weak (DPS is constantly lesser than Aldrachi). Is it truly an alternative Hero Talent when it is so underperforming ?

General

  • Gameplay (especially Fel-scarred) is truly non-innovative compared to other classes. It doesn’t feel exciting…

  • Visually, there is nothing new at all; which is a shame once again compared to the radiance of Paladins, the glacial advance and other combined animations of Frost DK’s, etc…

  • Damage-wise, it feels both hero talents are just average at best - with little to no distinction inside or outside “burst” (well…) windows. The Havoc talent tree feels restrictive; despite many active talent spells (e.g.: Fel Barrage, Glaive Tempest… and for the moment Essence Break) being not efficient.

I’d love to main DH Havoc for the next expansion but at this stage the overall direction and lack of feedback from the developers is quite disappointing…

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Hi Blizzard and fellow demon hunters,

I’ve been playing the beta since its available.
Mostly tested Vengeance spec since it is my main since, i started retail in late BFA.

Here is my feedback:

Hero Talents:

Aldrachi Reaver:

  • It is borderline unplayable with the 30 soul requirement to activate it.
  • From how it is designed, it is clearly meant for Havoc spec, which is does not fit fantasy wise. Vengeance had the ALDRACHI artifact weapon in legion, not havoc. The theme of the talents are completly off as well. It goes against what was said about the aldrachi in the weapon lore book.
  • No abilities have any fire theme in the tree, which was the whole gimmick of that weapon, would be nice if it came back as some form of damage type changing effect (fracture/soul cleave could do fire dmg as well or smh like that).

Since the talent tree is unplayable in normal circumstances i will not give feedback for actual gameplay on it. It needs complete redesign.

Fel-Scarred:

  • As others said, it is more like fel-scared. The gameplay element of turning your big defensive ability to a dps cooldown is cool and fun ( I loved the sinful brand spread as vengeance as well), but it does not look cool enough as it is!

For the gameplay:
It is a big concern to not give any dmg mitigation buff or dmg reduction while Meta is on cooldown. There is no real defensive besides meta, since fiery brand usually used at the same time as meta now for the maximum dmg output. (was not the case in DF, but the hero talent tree requires it.)

Vengance demon hunter as a spec:

  • Sadly, the “rework” in DF Season 3 was lackluster and did not give any real changes to the spec, we did the same thing as before just had twice as much sigils. Now with the capstone talent nerfed, the whole spec which was made to be the sigil tank is borderline lost its purpose
  • There were no new talents added to the spec since legion! (active talents, besides elysian decree), the spec is the same in every expension only difference is the tuning of the spells. Sigil of flame was a useless sigil ever since legion and was never used. Now the aoe dmg profile is built around it. The only reason why its working on the live game right now is because of the tier set bonus.
  • Add new talents to the tree, make a new gimmick for the spec, there are a lot of dead talents already which are so badly tuned there is no reason to use them (soul barrier, bulk extraction (which is ultra cool and could serve as a big dmg + healing button), Reveal in pain ect…)
  • Mastery: It is useless, like it ever was. Needs redesign.

From what I’ve seen from beta, the future for demon hunter looks dark.

Here is a tip, give half of the changes to DH that mages get every week and the spec will be viable again.

Thanks

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Hey Blizz we are seeing long path notes for other classes will we see anything for Havoc DH before launch.

After playing longer on beta Aldrachi seems highly counterintuitive to play with lot of issues stated by others. Fel-Scarred have the hero vibe but it`s under performing a lot.

Don` t leave us hanging please :slight_smile:

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Hello there,
I really dont know what to say, because everything was already said here, or on us version.
I play Havoc from legion, but now iam really considering reroll, because of the state of havoc, and silence that doesnt give me hope, that enything will change.
Fel-scarred is kidna boring, and have minor issue in my opinion, that when you are in meta, next eye beam wont give u charges of demonsurge, that is counter intuitive and you want to hold eye beam (if you play CoH ans SD) so you drop out of meta, just to eyebeam in back …
Aldrachi reaver … where to start, if you really want havoc to play around souls, give us atleast something (besides sigils) that ll generate souls, and some soul suck. Or you can listen to Nephuhlim on US, and make reaver glaive either just 20sec cd, or make it based on fury spend, rather than on souls.
Second thing is reavers mark … please remove it, its just like sinfull brand, maintenance, and horrible gameplay. If u want reavers mark to stay, make reavers glaive to apply it (if u want to keep 30% and 15% make it if glaive hit one target it give 30%, if more then 15%) and make empowered chaos strike some big single target hit,

Another topic is making some throw glaive cap stone (forexample our 2set, or make glaive tempest apply soulscar, or glaive tempest launch all charges of throw glaive … something like that)

Please, just give us something. :slight_smile: Not silence.

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It’s depressing seeing that this whole thread has less posts than the daily amount of comments posted in threads of the reworked classes.

I hope this doesn’t come back to bite the Combat Design Team team in their lower backs, promising refining EVERY class with us in BETA.

At this stage, with the amount of deafening silence, lack of talent rework and lack of visible action related to the feedback reported on Hero Talents issues, the rework better comes with a new customizable Metamorphosis form. :stuck_out_tongue:

However, I would be more than happy if we got an Elemental Shaman level of rework (class and spec talent reshuffling, reducing 2-point talents into 1-point nodes, splitting of some choice nodes, and replacing/removing dead talents).


Myself and many other Demon Hunter enthusiasts were patient and polite, we would greatly appreciate if The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team could extend the courtesy to those of us who wanted to constructively assist on your hard work.

I honestly would be content with any form of communication, even if the team states the class will not be reworked until 11.0.5 or so (I reckon hero talents will be tuned anyway so they are both playable and similar in performance on expansion release.)

Some say “You can’t kill hope”, but ours is already dying. Please, give us something or just deliver the coup de grace.

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Just wondering… are we Gonna get any feedback at all from the devs?
If not i better start looking to reroll my class…
Its sad to see how DH is looking compared to other classes…
Other then the sigil nerf we dident really see any changes or feedback!

Let us know if were getting any changes or not. we shouldent be left in the dark…

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