Feedback: Druids

Feels kind of weird that you implement half the effect of the night fae legendary for convoke. Why not implement the cooldown reduction as well so it’s once again 1 minute cooldown? 2 minutes cooldown on it just will feel really bad.

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Hello,
I am a gladiator exp resto druid and I would like to give some feedback on resto talent tree from a PvP perspective.

  1. Ysera’s Gift does not deserve 3 talent points, even 2 is too much.
  2. Unstoppable Growth is powerful in Raids and Dungeons, but in Arena it’s worthless because we actually almost never cast Wild Growth as it is not a mana efficient spell. This talent must be made optional, not mandatory as it is now.
  3. Ironbark is now split in 3 talents for a total of 5 talent points - I don’t really like it.
  4. Unbridbled Swarm does not deserve 2 talent points. To be honest, I would rather entirely remove Adaptive Swarm from resto druids. Yes I know, it is very popular right now, but it is so because it is far more powerful than any other covenant ability, specifically in PvP environment. Why I don’t like it? Because its uptime is random and its split chance is somewhat low. Sometimes you have it on every teammate, other times on no one. No one likes RNG, but for healers it is more important to have less randomness than for damage dealers since healers have to react to heavy damage spikes rather than pray for Adaptive Swarm to split as many times as possible and be active when heavy damage comes. On top of this, this randomness from Adaptive Swarm makes tuning very problematic.
    So my suggestion would be, replace Adaptive Swarm with Photosynthesis and allow resto druids to have both Photosynthesis and The Dark Titan’s Lesson. This will eliminate this bad randomness and make resto druid play style interesting and enjoyable.
  5. Resto druids suffer big from opposing purger classes in arena, especially against double purge classes. I.e when two opposing arena opponents spam purge abilities simultaneously, while the third opponent burst down one of your teammate. It is the weakest point of resto druids. No other healer is so vulnerable to purge abilities as resto druid is. My suggestion would be making Soul of the Forest(SotF) empowered HoTs immune to purge effects. You can have SofF once every 15 secs, while purge abilities have no cooldown.
  6. Nourish - I think this talent option would be dead on arrival. No one wants it right now and most probably no one will want it come Dragonflight. The talent has to be redesigned. Here is one interesting redesign idea that I came up with:
    Nourish - Your periodic heal effects plant a seed on affected target that will replicate 10% of all healing done to the target and store it within the seed up to a maximum of 20% of your max health. Casting Nourish on targets affected by a seed will consume the seed and heal for the amount of accumulated healing(multiplied by mastery stacks). Instant cast.
  7. So far, I see most classes are getting completely new abilities either in their class tree or spec tree. Druids have 99% old stuff. Can we have some new and interesting talents, please.

Edit:
While being able to talent into both Photosynthesis and The Dark Titan’s Lesson might seem quite good on paper, it may actually create some awkwardness. In order to benefit from Photosynthesis you will want to make sure you always have one active Lifebloom on yourself. Repositioning your Lifeblooms will most often relocate an active Lifebloom on yourself to someone else and force you to reapply it to yourself more frequently than you would like to(especially in arena), which in essence might become very annoying. So for Photosynthesis and The Dark Titan’s Lesson to coexist, Photosynthesis has to be slightly modified to something like this:
Photosynthesis: When you have an active Lifebloom on any target your HoT effects heal 20% more frequently.

2 Likes

NOTE: I’m not the original creator of this post, just forwarding it from reddit

Introduction

Dear future developer of the Druid class, especially Feral specialisation, I just must tell you in advance I love you (especially if you are the person behind the Rogue class talents). As true love needs to be proved I am doing this to help you with your difficult job of designing the talents of the Druid class and especially Feral to enable you to fulfil the expectations of the Feral Druid community in WoW. With love!

On the serious note, I wanted to summarize the feedback from the druid community regarding the, as the most of the WoW’s community agrees, the worst talent tree in Dragonflight. My background is in research (actually have a PhD on WoW in some other aspect), so I did the research thing – surveyed the related work. Also, I have been playing Druid exclusively as a main since vanilla. I have spent a ton of time doing this and not playing, but theorycrafting is also a form of play. I have read the majority of official forum threads, the big alpha forum response thread, reddit threads and custom trees, relevant YouTube videos, discussed some issues on Druid discord channels etc.

My post is divided into several parts:

  1. Identified problems and proposed solutions
  2. Proposed changes to the core abilities
  3. Proposed changes to the Druid class tree
  4. Proposed new Feral specialisation tree
Sources

Some of the YouTube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHljdjau-Q8&ab_channel=MarcelianOnline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwnmYctoPQ&ab_channel=Pikabooirl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhv9uM1AZTM&ab_channel=Snupy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdtwP8XE6Ns&ab_channel=Psybear_tv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ysmxzCUTw&ab_channel=Maximum

Discords:
Dreamgrove and CatTheory


1. Identified problems and proposed solutions.

The methodology for this was relatively simple I just went through the sources and counted how many times has a specific issue been mentioned. Here is the list of the most occurrent issues sorted by frequency of occurrence. I have created the naming, but every will be further explained.

The list of problems:

  1. Brutal Slash replacing Swipe
  2. Strict pathing (single routes, useless talents for a build must be taken, plus talents which need to be taken for one useful thing, talent placement in general, too few options and talents in general)
  3. Berserk (strength, cooldown)
  4. Infected wounds underpowered and mandatory
  5. Predatory Swiftness placement
  6. Survival Instincts placement
  7. Too many 3-point talents
  8. Specialisation specific buff for raids
  9. Cyclone, Soothe, Typhoon, and Hibernate hard to reach
  10. Energy reduction too many talents
  11. Sabertooth (philosophy of the talent)
  12. Sudden Ambush (too weak and to costly)
  13. Symbiosis (people want it back)
  14. Lack of clear bite/bleed builds
  15. Too much damage from Ferocious Bite
  16. AoE being poorly supported
  17. Bloodtalons placement
  18. Sickle of the Lion not being in the tree
  19. Furor usability for Feral druids
  20. Casting in forms
  21. Hearth of the wild options
  22. Too much pruning
  23. Convoke the spirits cooldown too long
  24. Adaptive swarm not fitting for the druid
  25. Disabled weaving of other specialisations
  26. Druidic “feel”, not pruned rogues or warriors
  27. Shifting of GCD
  28. Feral Frenzy placement
  29. Wanted abilities

The problems and solutions which are suggested by the community or what I have suggested are further explained in this section. The solutions are based mostly on the stuff that has already been in the druid abilities so no new excessive coding or design is needed.

  1. Brutal Slash
  • Problem: This is clearly the most significant issue with the tree. Brutal Slash is an AoE ability which is not usable properly in AoE situations because it disables Swipe. In the end this ability is basically used by PvP Feral druids, and as a good single target damage dealing ability, and also for triggering Bloodtalons. It’s most intuitive use and application are AoE situations in Raiding and Mythic+, but in current form it is completely unusable in that form of content because it spends the charges quickly, and the druid is left without a proper AoE spamable damage dealing ability.

  • Solution: The solution is simple and all agree upon it – simply make Brutal Slash not replace Swipe. This solution leads to applicability of Bloodtalons in AoE situations as the option of Trash, Brutal Slash, Shread, Brutal Slash, Brutal Slash → Primal Wrath is a logical option. Also, the druids maintain the ability of actually having a spamable AoE ability.

  1. Strict pathing
  • Problem: The tree has too few choices, there are routes that have to be taken, useless talents for specific types of content are mandatory, talent placement in general etc.

  • Solution: Solution for this is too complicated for a short paragraph, but basically increase the number of talents and have sections of a tree for certain type of gameplay and content. Take a talent layout from other classes which have been done better, for example rogues. I suggested my talent tree as a concept through which I try to illustrate the issues and how they can be solved.

  1. Berserk
  • Problem: People find a build a Berserk concept interesting, but wildly underpowered. Also, the placement of specific segments of Berserk are bad. The Avatar of Ashamane is considered wildly underpowered in terms of comparison with a competitor on the switch node Convoke the Spirits. The most interesting Berserk aspect – Sickle of the Lion is missing from the tree. Most feedback wants it back.

  • Solution: Better placement of specific parts of Berserk. Increasing the power of each of the aspects. Cooldown reduction. Sickle of the Lion added to Avatar of Ashamane.

  1. Infected Wounds underpowered and mandatory
  • Problem: As it name implies Infected Wounds are considered underpowered. Also, the positioning is really bad, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and Infected Wounds are really not useful for many types of content. There is also no way of AoE application of Infected Wounds.

  • Solution: Simply change the placement of the talent to be easily accessible, but not mandatory for any further talents. Also, make Trash apply it and increase the slow from 20% to higher value. In my talent tree I have made it apply a 40% slow.

  1. Predatory Swiftness placement
  • Problem: Predatory Swiftness is placed badly, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and this talent is really not needed for many forms of content, especially since the change of Bloodtalons.

  • Solution: Change the placement to an easily accessible place, but not make it mandatory for throughput talents. This is needed as for example for Questiong and PvP combat this talent is crucial.

  1. Survival Instincts placement
  • Problem: Survival Instincts is placed badly, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and this talent is really not needed for many forms of content. In general, utility talents should not gatekeep throughput talents.

  • Solution: My proposed solution is part of a greater philosophy of sharing more utility abilities between specs, so I have placed Survival Instincts in the main Druid class tree.

  1. Too many 3-point talents
  • Problem: Tree point talents are not fun or needed. There is also too many of them.

  • Solution: Just remove the 3-point talents as it has been done with other specs. Condense them to two-point talents.

  1. Specialisation specific buff for raids
  • Problem: The raiding part of the Feral community fears that bringing any other Druid specialisation will render Feral not needed. They believe the Feral should have a raid specific unique buff. This has been done to Windwalker Monks so I also believe this needs to be done for druids.

  • Solution: It is simple, bring back the good old Leader of the Pack.

  1. Cyclone, Soothe, Typhoon, and Hibernate hard to reach
  • Problem: As it name implies these are hard to reach. Other then Cyclone Sooth and Hibernate are really niche abilities and not worth investing a lot of points into abilities which are scarcely useful for Feral druids. Also, Typhoon is really good for Guardian druids, and it is not that accessible to them, a notion I saw in several posts when I did the survey. Investing into those early Druid tree abilities is a complete issue for itself which is addressed via making those early abilities somehow useful for a Feral. More about this in the section related to the tree proposal.

  • Solution: Simply make them easier to reach by pushing them more up in the general Druid tree.

  1. Energy reduction too many talents
  • Problem: As the name suggests there are simply to many talents dedicated to this. Also, it relates to the 3-point talent problem

  • Solution: Reduce the number of talents for energy reduction. Also, place them in a way that people who want to invest in them easily can without making them mandatory for other talents.

  1. Sabertooth (philosophy of the talent)
  • Problem: Sabertooth as a talent ruins the gameplay for a bleed build. There is a whole section of people who have done really detailed explanations on this. On the other hand, this talent is heavily wanted by the people who want to play Ferocious Bite builds and PvP. Therefore, it is complicated.

  • Solution: Do not remove the talent but make its placement so deed in the Ferocious Bite build part of the tree, that bleed build focused Ferals can not obtain it without sacrificing too much power of the bleeds.

  1. Sudden Ambush (too weak and to costly)
  • Problem: As the name suggests, Sudden Ambush is not liked, and there is a feeling of it being too costly and weak. On the other hand, some druids say it is a really powerful conduit, but few have actually commented on this.

  • Solution: Related to 3-point talents, reduce the number of talents for this.

  1. Symbiosis (people want it back)
  • Problem: There is not one, but a lot of people have mentioned Symbiosis as the most fun spell the druid had in its kit.

  • Solution: Bring it back, and disable it in PvP if needed.

  1. Lack of clear bite/bleed builds
  • Problem: A lot of folks wants to have an option on whether they want to focus on Ferocious Bite gameplay (like it is now) or to focus on bleed builds. There is no clear sections of the tree for this.

  • Solution: Change of the tree overall and introduction of some new talents to support this. My suggestions regarding this are in the part of talent description.

  1. Too much damage from Ferocious Bite
  • Problem: As name suggests, some people really do not want that playstyle.

  • Solution: Offer a bleed build on one had, and make combo point generating abilities do more damage on the other hand.

  1. AoE being poorly supported
  • Problem: As the name suggests Ferals lack in the AoE department. This is heavily related to the Brutal Slash issue.

  • Solution: Same as for the Brutal Slash – make it not replace Swipe.

  1. Bloodtalons placement
  • Problem: Bloodtalons is placed in the section of the tree that does not allow other type of gameplay to access it.

  • Solution: Move it more to the centre of the tree.

  1. Sickle of the Lion not being in the tree
  • Problem: Best aspect of Berserk in Shadowlands is missing in the tree.

  • Solution: Already addressed via the change to Avatar of Ashamane. Just add it to that talent so it can fight with Convoke the Spirits in the burst section.

  1. Furor usability for Feral druids
  • Problem: The Druid class tree is made in a way that suggests that Furor is the “ending” talent for Feral druids (it being the most to the left). Sadly, Feral druids can not really use it much. The only use I can see is shifting to Bear, pressing Frenzied Regeneration and Maul + Mangle. Switching to cat and having several free abilities. There are several interesting videos of Moonkins using this talent interestingly. Switching to caster, and healing for more than 4 seconds is interesting, but I really do not see the application of it, as in PvP Ferals would rarely heal for more than 4 seconds, and mana was enough for that.

  • Solution: Make form switching more interesting and viable, but make it an option as many druids do not want that type of gameplay. For example, make it viable for a Feral to switch to Moonkin or Bear by retaining a part of power of a previous form. In that way Maul and Mangle after Cat form would do more damage, and spells cast in Cat form after Moonkin form would do the same. This is a difficult problem though so this is just something I came up with.

  1. Casting in forms
  • Problem: Switching forms to cast is very tasking for a feral, especially in PvP environment, and it feels very limiting.

  • Solution: Make majority of spells castable in forms, or at least via Predatory Swiftness. Simple solution via the old talent Claws of Shirvallah.

  1. Hearth of the Wild options
  • Problem: Hearth of the Wild has two options in Shadowlands, one as a talent and other as a legendary item. In the talent tree for Shadowlands there is only the talent version. Many have liked the Oath of the Elder Druid option to gain the effects of HoTW for a shorter while on a shorter cooldown.

  • Solution: Make the talent in the Druid class tree a switch between regular Hearth of the Wild and Oath of the Elder Druid legendary item which makes every shift with a 1 minute cooldown trigger Hearth of the Wild.

  1. Too much pruning
  • Problem: The community has the impression that Druid has lost abilities and accessibility to them instead of gaining it.

  • Solution: Make certain utility options easier to access. Give some “core” abilities from a specialisation to the class tree. For example, Tranquility from Restoration, Savage Insticts from Feral and Guardian and Force of Nature from Moonkin.

  1. Convoke the Spirits cooldown too long
  • Problem: Currently Convoke the Spirits with the legendary has a 1 minute cooldown. The talent which improves Convoke the Spirits in Dragonflight does not reduce the cooldown. The cooldown reduction is very important aspect of Convoke the Spirits viability for PvP combat. Also, it really feels good for every aspect of the gameplay. If people are investing in Convoke the Spirits heavily in talents they should have at least the ability as it is now in the Shadowlands.

  • Solution: Make the talent which improves Convoke the Spirits decrease the cooldown to 1 minute as well.

  1. Adaptive swarm not fitting for the Druid class
  • Problem: More of a cosmetic issue, but several times people have mentioned this ability as not fitting to the lore of the druid.

  • Solution: Just rename it to old Insect swarm and make it deal Nature type damage.

  1. Disabled weaving of other specialisations
  • Problem: Some aspect of the community really likes the weaving aspect of gameplay. For example, Restoration druids had Catweaving in PvP, which has been rendered significantly nerfed via the change of stun being Feral only in Dragonflight.

  • Solution: There need to be some changes to talents to enable form weaving, for example that switching to Moonkin or Bear is viable for damage dealing in some situations. Also, this needs to be NOT mandatory, as some part of the community really dislikes this type of gameplay. This can be related to Furor talent and its viability. Also, stun needs to return in basic form on Rake from stealth for all specialisations of Druid class. If we go back to Pounce being merged into Rake. Or return Pounce (which I do not like really.

  1. Druidic “feel”, not pruned rogues or warriors
  • Problem: Feral and Guardian druids feel like “pruned” version of Rogues and Warriors.

  • Solution: More Druid in each specialisation, related to weaving, having access to core abilities of other specialisations of the Druid class. Same solution as to too much pruning.

  1. Shifting of GCD
  • Problem: Several people have indicated that changing forms is very taxing in terms of gameplay.

  • Soltuon: Make the shifting of global cooldown. To make it not overpowered, add a cooldown on returning to previous form.

  1. Feral Frenzy placement
  • Problem: Feral Frenzy is a very interesting ability for different types of gameplay, yet it is placed on the very left of the tree.

  • Solution: Make it more accessible by putting it in the middle of the tree.

  1. Wanted abilities:
  • Problem: The following abilities are mentioned several times as wanted by feral community.
  1. Force of Nature

  2. Fairy Fire

  3. Displacer Beast

  4. Tranquillity

  • Solution: Just make them easy to obtain through the Druid class tree. This relates to the problem of the “Druidic” feel of the specialisation, and not being left as Rogues with less toolkit.

2. Proposed changes to the core abilities

The pool of the core abilities should increase so as to give a more druidic feel to the whole class, and make some talent choices meaningful, and not really mandatory,

Following abilities should be added to core:

  • Feral charge – this is a really iconic ability, and a large section of the Druid community takes it. You should probably have a statistic on the choice of talents, so you know this. Instead of this into the Druid class tree Displacer Beast should be returned. It could have the same effect as Night Fae Soulshape ability, so the balancing is not an issue here.

  • Moonkin Form – why is Moonkin form different from Feral and Guardian forms? There are also two talents form Moonkin form, one in class tree and other in specialisation tree.


3. Proposed changes to the Druid class tree

Using Talent Tree Manager (https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager) I have created a new tree for the Druid class with minimal changes. In this section I will describe the changes and issues that they are related to. The proposed class tree is illustrated on the picture.

Also, if you want you can import it in TTM via this link: https://pastebin.com/WBf1DXNk

  • General reduction of 3-point talents. Somewhere to 1-point, and somewhere to 2-points.

  • Rake – It has been changed to include stun as baseline. This is related to the issue of weaving other forms, and a more druidic feel.

  • Hibernate – It has been made more accessible and moved to 2nd row, as it is a really niche ability, but sometimes useful in PvP. Related to issue of feeling pruned.

  • Force of Nature – made available instead of Moonkin Form. Related to the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs, making the spec not pruned version of Rogue, and also usability of Feral in M+.

  • Survival Instincts – made available in the line of Guardian defensive abilities, and also linking to Thick Hide. This enables PvP Balance and Restoration druids to avoid investing heavily into abilities which are not usable to them to reach Thick Hide. Also, the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs.

  • Typhoon – moving it up in the tree to make it more accessible to other specialisations (especially Guardians)

  • Displacer beast – replacing Feral Charge which is being made baseline. Related to more choices and more of a druidic feel of the whole class**.**

  • Symbiosis – being placed instead of Soothe as a central ability. Making several links from it enables easier navigation through the tree and taking more from parts which are more related to other specs. Related to issues of many people wanting it back.

  • Soothe – moved a bit to the right to accommodate for Symbiosis.

  • Mass Cyclone – to give Balance an escape. Ability similar to Mass Polymorph. Related to no issue, I had to have some fun in designing the tree :blush:

  • Power of the Shift - new talent in the left section. Changing form does not trigger global cooldown, but you can not return to your previous form for four seconds. Related to weaving of different forms and usability of Furor.

  • Tranquillity – added related to the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs

  • Oath of the Elder Druid – added as choice with Hearth of the Wild. Related to the issue of different playstyles of Hearth of the Wild.


4. Proposed changes to the Feral specilisation tree

Using Talent Tree Manager (https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager) I have created a new tree for the Feral class with significant changes. In this section I will describe the changes and issues that they are related to. The proposed specialisation tree is illustrated on the picture.

Also, if you want you can import it in TTM via this link: https://pastebin.com/13S57nM2

Because changes are so massive, I will first illustrate the philosophy of the tree through passing every section visually. Also, I have tried to use already existing spells everywhere (as existing in some point of WoW’s history). The talent tree is far from perfect, but the idea of it is to showcase how easy is to solve some of the issues, and just by using
already existing abilities. The sections of the tree are indicated on the next picture.


First section Spell interaction. This section is heavily new.

The first talent is Claws of Shirvallah. Making it here really focuses on the integration of Feral druid with spells, but only if the player wants. This whole section can be avoided. Furthermore, player can go into Balance enhancing talents. Why? So as to if the Feral has to take Balance spells in the Druid class tree, this section makes it usable. Moonfire remains the same, Starsurge becomes a ranged finisher, which increases damage the further Feral is from the target (so it can never be better than Ferocious Bite, but adds an option of doing damage to certain Bosses when you can not be in melee). Last talent enables Starfires on proc of Moonfire damage in AoE situations. Here we have also Predatory Swiftness and a talent Shifted Power which enables retaining a part of the power of the previous form in the new form, which is related to weaving and viability of Furor as a talent.

Talents in this section.

  • Claws of Shirvallah

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Druids can cast all spells in cat form. Additionally, all versatility is increased by 5%.

  • Predatory Swiftness

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to make your next all nature spells instant, free, and castable in all forms. If Cyclone is cast through predatory Swiftness it gains a 1 minute cooldown.

  • Shifted power

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

When entering a shapeshift form, a portion of power of previous form is held in the new form for 4 seconds. Cat form - attack power, Bear form health and armor, moonkin form - spell power.

  • Lunar Inspiration

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Moonfire is usable in Cat Form, costs 30 energy, and generates 1 combo points.

  • Moon’s Reach

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Starsurge is a finishing move in cat form. Damage done is based on attack power and distance from the target

  • Fire of the Stars

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

If Moonfire is active on multiple targets its periodic damage has a chance to summon a Starfire on the target. The damage of the Starfire is modified by attack power.


The second section is Energy line.

This section is comprised of all talents related to energy saving and enhancing. They are also optional and easy to take or avoid. The talents here are all from the original tree and only changed in reducing a 3-point talent to a 2-point talent. The talents are:

  • Max Energy

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your maximum Energy is increased by 30.

Your maximum Energy is increased by 60.

  • Omen of Clarity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your auto attacks have a chance to cause a Clearcasting state, making your next Shred, Thrash, or Brutal Slash and Swipe cost no Energy.

  • Moment of Clarity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Omen of Clarity now triggers 50% more often, can accumulate up to (1u + 1) charges, and increases the damage of your next Shred, Thrash, or Brutal Slash and Swipe by 15%.

  • Cat’s Curiosity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Clearcast abilities generate 15% of their Energy cost.

Clearcast abilities generate 30 % of their Energy cost.


Third section is Bite or Bleed.

In this section the player first chooses the playstyle wanted. First choice is between Ashamanes Rip / Open Wounds. Player either takes another Rip, or make Rip reduce the armour of the target, making direct damage done higher. Following that we got Savage Roar, and the talent which buffs Savage Roar in different ways, one for bleed damage and other as an opener for direct damage. The talents are:

  • Ashamanes Rip / Open Wounds

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your combo point generators against targets bleeding from your Rip have a 10% chance to awaken the Spirit of Ashamane, which inflicts a Shadowy duplicate of that Rip on the target.

The Fangs of Ashamane tear deep into your target, causing your attacks to ignore 15% of the target’s armor while Rip is active.

  • Savage Roar

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Finishing move that increases damage by 15% and energy regeneration rate by 10% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point: 12 seconds, 2 points: 18 seconds, 3 points: 24 seconds, 4 points: 30 seconds, 5 points: 36 seconds

  • Silent Roar / Screaming roar

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:Savage Roar is now usable with 0 combo points for a 36 second duration, usable while in prowl.

Critical strikes of damage over time effects have a x% chance to increase the duration of Savage Raor.


The fourth section is stealth line.

This is basically just a higher throughput line, available to both bleed and bite path. The Berserk Jungle Stalker ends this line. The talents are:

  • Improved Prowl

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

While stealthed, Rake will deal 30% increased damage.

While stealthed, Shred deals 30% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.

While stealthed, Rake will deal 60% increased damage.

While stealthed, Shred deals 60% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.

  • Sudden Ambush

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Finishing moves have a 3% chance per combo point spent to make your next Rake or Shred deal damage as though you were stealthed.

Finishing moves have a 6% chance per combo point spent to make your next Rake or Shred deal damage as though you were stealthed.

  • Berserk Jungle Stalker

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Go Berserk for 20 sec, causing Rake and Shred to deal damage as though you were stealthed, and allowing the use of Prowl once while in combat. Combines with other Berserk abilities.


The fifth line is the bleed line.

Taking the first talents in this line nerfs the Bite build severely by transferring a portion of the Ferocious Bite damage to a bleed. This gatekeeps the ability which makes beleed crits grant extra combo points which could be really useful for the bite build. Also, here is the Feral Frenzy so it is easy to access, and it leads to Circle which can be taken even with a Ferocious Bite build, for increased burst, but not so much the damage of bleeds. Lower part are just some optional talents which can make a bleed build easier, and also Infected Wounds which is an option. The talents in this part are:

  • Bleeding Bites

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions: Ferocious Bite deals x% less damage, but applies a bleed with two times the intensity of reduced damage. This bleed can stack.

  • The Wildshapers Clutch

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Critical damage from your Bleeds have a 15% chance to trigger Primal Fury.

Critical damage from your Bleeds have a 30% chance to trigger Primal Fury.

  • Berserk Frenzy

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Go Berserk for 20 sec, causing your combo point-generating abilities to bleed the target for an additional 150% of their damage over 8 sec. Combines with other Berserk abilities. Passive: Combo-point generating abilities reduce the cooldown of Berserk by 0.3 sec.

  • Circle of Life and Death

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time.

  • Feral Frenzy

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Unleash a furious frenzy, clawing your target 5 times for [(7.5% of Attack power) * 5] Physical damage and an additional [5 * (15% of Attack power) * 6 / 2] Bleed damage over 6 sec.

  • Rip and Tear

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Instantly applies Rake and Rip to the target.

  • Infected Wounds

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Rake and trash causes an Infected Wound in the target, reducing the target’s movement speed by 20% for 12 sec.

  • Predator

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

The cooldown on Tiger’s Fury resets when a target dies with one of your Bleed effects active, and Tiger’s Fury lasts 5 additional seconds.

Parent talents: 32,

Child talents: 21, 29,


The sixth line is the Ferocious Bite line.

This line focuses on increasing damage with combo point generators and Ferocious Bite, but based on bleeds, so that the druid can not only spam Shred, Brutal Slash and Ferocious Bite. Sabertooth is placed deep in this line so it is not viable for the bleed build. The talents in this line are:

  • Improved Bleeds

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Shred and Swipe deal 20% increased damage against bleeding targets.

Shred and Swipe deal 20% increased damage against bleeding targets.

  • Taste for Blood

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite deals 2% increased damage for each of your Bleeds on the target.

Ferocious Bite deals 4% increased damage for each of your Bleeds on the target.

  • Sabertooth

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite deals 20% increased damage and increases the duration of Rip on your target by 1 sec per combo point spent.

  • Iron Jaws

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite has a 8% chance per combo point to increase the damage of your next Maim by X per combo point.

  • Chunk of flesh

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious bite heals the target for x% of the damage.

  • Improved Shred

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Shred deals increased damage by x%


The seventh section is AoE section.

The idea of this section is to have AoE abilities and boosting talents in the same part of the tree (except of Starfire part), and to have Bloodtalons integrated with Brutal Slash (as a new ability). So Brutal Slash could be used in both single and AoE situations as a generator for Bloodtalons. Also, this makes Bloodtalons easier to access to any of the types of builds. It would be interesting to have Berserk Relenlesness somehow integrated into this, but I have had no inspiration. Talents here area:

  • Brutal Slash

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Strikes all nearby enemies with a massive slash, inflicting (82.8% of Attack power) Physical damage. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets. Does not replace Swipe.

Awards 1 combo point.

  • Primal Wrath

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Finishing move that deals instant damage and applies Rip to all enemies within 8 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.

  • Scent of Blood

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Each enemy hit by Thrash reduces the cost of Swipe by 3 Energy for the next 6 sec.

  • Bloodtalons

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

When you use 3 different combo point-generating abilities within 4 sec, the damage of your next 2 Rips or Ferocious Bites is increased by 30%.


The last section is bear section.

This section is again related to a more druidic feel inside the specialisation tree, and enabling survivability. They are based on a legendary which is used by Feral druids in Shadowlands, although it is intended for Guardian druids. This legendary enables, survive and burst gameplay in PvP.

  • Bear Necessities

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

When under the effect of loss of control barkskin instantly turns you to bear form.

  • The Natural Order’s Will

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Barkskin reduces damage by an additional 10%. When it begins or ends in Bear Form, you gain Ironfur and Frenzied Regeneration.


The remaining talents are as follows:
  • Tiger’s Fury

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Instantly restores 50 Energy, and increases the damage of all your attacks by 20% for their full duration. Lasts 10 sec.

  • Berserk Relentlessness

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Go berserk for 20 sec, giving finishing moves a 20% chance per combo point spent to refund 2 combo point. Combines with other Berserk abilities.

  • Carnivorous Instinct

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Tiger’s Fury’s damage bonus is increased by 3.0%.

Tiger’s Fury’s damage bonus is increased by 6.0%.

  • Eye of Fearful Symmetry

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Tiger’s Fury causes your next 2 finishing moves to restore 2 combo points.

Tiger’s Fury causes your next 2 finishing moves to restore 2 combo points.

  • Insect Swarm

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Command a swarm that heals (157.5% of Spell power) or deals (150% of Spell power) Nature damage over 12 sec to a target, and increases the effectiveness of your periodic effects on them by 25%. Upon expiration, finds a new target, preferring to alternate between friend and foe up to 3 times.

  • Incarnation Avatar of Ashamane / Convoke the Spirits

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

An improved Cat Form that grants all of your known Berserk effects and reduces the Energy cost of all Cat Form abilities by 20%. Entering Berserk causes you to strike all nearby enemies, dealing Bleed damage over 10 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets.

Lasts 30 sec. You may shapeshift in and out of this improved Cat Form for its duration.

Call upon the Night Fae for an eruption of energy, channeling a rapid flurry of 16 Druid spells and abilities over 4 sec.

You will cast Wild Growth, Swiftmend, Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Rake, and Thrash on appropriate nearby targets, favoring your current shapeshift form.

  • Soul of the Forest

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Your finishing moves grant 5 Energy per combo point spent and deal 5% increased damage.

  • Draught of Deep Focus / Apex Predator’s Craving

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

When Moonfire, Rake, Rip, or Rejuvenation are active on a single target, their effects are increased 40%.

Rip damage has a 4% chance to make your next Ferocious Bite free and deal the maximum damage.

  • Unbridled Swarm

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Adaptive Swarm has a 60% chance to split into two Swarms each time it jumps.

  • Modal Cooldown Bonus (NYI)

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Shifting out of Incarnation before it expires ends the effect and refunds a portion of its cooldown.||n||n[OR]||n||nConvoke the Spirits has an increased chance to use an exceptional spell or ability and its cooldown is reduced to 1 minute.

  • Leader of the Pack

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

While in Bear Form or Cat Form, increases critical strike chance of all party and raid members within 100 yards by 5%. Also causes your melee critical strikes to heal you for 3% of your health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 sec.

8 Likes

Hello!
Me and my friend would want to share some extensive feedback we’ve been both working on for quite some time. It’s coming from a guy who’s never changed his spec (Feral) since Vanilla WoW, and me - who loves the spec and wants it to be better. We both got a few Cutting Edges as Feral. The new talent trees and new expansion on the horizon is a great time to change things. I know it’s a lot of words.

1. THE Berserk Problem

Berserk is a cooldown that has been suffering for quite some time - before SL it was said to be not impactful enough, which is true numerically, in SL on the other hand we’ve seen a rework. I, personally, hate it as a cooldown and I feel it’s still not in the state it should currently be baseline. In the new talent tree a new idea is proposed - the whole “build your own CD” thing. There are many, many problems with that, but let’s start with the one I’ve already mentioned: Berserk is NOT a fun cooldown. Yes, fun is relative, there are for sure some enjoyers of its current state.

I think the biggest issue here is its lack of energy cost reduction. From a big, 3 minute CD you should expect being able to blast everything into oblivion, especially with that sweet red-thunder animation, yet you find yourself sitting and scratching things with auto attacks, because oh well, you didn’t get an Omen of Clarity proc, you didn’t get a crit or anything similar. I know it’s bandaided now with the current borrowed power and the sheer amount of stats we get, but it will run into its usual problem at the start of the expansion again. It’s a total feel bad moment. On top of that Berserk lacks AoE benefits (now it’s not that visible because of our current tier set). Add to that the psychological element of expecting that your 3 minute CD will be BIG and poof, a recipe for a bad spell has been invented. For me it has been a big deterrent since Beta and my SL Beta feedback post.

Secondly - the baseline version we easily get through talents is a stripped-down version of what I described above. To build your Berserk to the state it is currently in, you have to go through your tree, sacrificing lots and lots of valuable points, taking stuff you don’t even need in, let’s say, single target. The talent placement needs a MAJOR rework here if we want to continue with the “build your own CD” kind of stuff. Improved Shred, Improved Prowl, then going through the whole left side of the tree to pick Jungle Stalker, and then you have the faulty version that is currently live. You may add Incarnation to the mix, but the 20% energy cost reduction isn’t that meaningful at all, especially when the talent competes directly with Convoke. It doesn’t feel good - in fact, it feels like the problem isn’t and hasn’t been recognised at all. These talents are, in my humble opinion of a Cutting Edge type of raider and M+ gamer, a subject to removal. The power loss and the sacrifice you have to do to regain it to even have that CD in any playable state is just too big.

2. SO MUCH… ENERGY!

In our DF talent tree we’ve got exactly 9 talents that directly or indirectly impact our energy, be it energy bar itself or cost of the abilities. Listing:

  • Max Energy (3!! points),

  • Omen of Clarity (it’s fine),

  • Improved Tiger’s Fury (another 3 points - why, just why? Just have it baseline),

  • Scent of Blood (finally it may see some play, actually! I don’t have anything against it, unless it makes us lack that 1 point to finalise the tree well, but it’s out of the way so it won’t be a big issue, I bet),

  • Savage Roar (return of the classic - on the right side of the tree, I feel it should be placed somewhere else;),

  • Moment of Clarity (nothing against it again - it’s not a big offender, like TF talent or Max Energy one…),

  • Cat’s Curiosity (2 points; feels bad a bit again),

  • Soul of the Forest (mandatory - actually the best feeling energy talent ever),

  • aaand Incarnation (which competes with Convoke and gives only 20% energy cost reduction).

I feel like the main focus of the tree was to get rid of our energy problem we run into at the start of the expansion. But do we really need SO many talents to do that? I feel like I spend half of my points to just bandaid the issue and bandaid the feels bad Berserk we get. It’s 15 points. 15. Points. I get that I don’t have to take everything, but I also feel it’s just way too many. Waaaay too many. The biggest offenders here are the 3-point talents (Improved Tiger’s Fury and Max Energy). It’s always like that: 3-point talents just feel bad for any class, any spec. I don’t think we need more explanation for that.

Feral in general should be based on pooling energy and using it wisely outside of cooldowns. It’s nice to have more energy, but I think it’d be fair to get rid of soooo many talents here or at least reduce their cost. For now it seems someone’s trying to make an energy-based spec just interact with it the least. Improved Tiger’s Fury is placed well on the tree though - right near the kitty on the background image; it makes it cry. You got a sad kitty that isn’t even being pet by anyone.

3. Swipe and Slash! No, it’s not a video game genre

Let’s start with the positive thing - we can have both Primal Wrath and Brutal Slash. It’s VERY good for our AoE/mixed setting issues which we currently struggle with a bit. Also it opens up the potential extraordinarily nice interaction with Bloodtalons - it’s way, way nicer to press Brutal Slash, Thrash and Swipe than to fill the 3rd combo spell with something like Rake or Shred to activate Bloodtalons in AoE setting. I think this interaction, this thing should stay like that.

One of the biggest pain points of the Feral tree is the fact that Brutal Slash (that you will choose to access the entire right side of the tree) replaces Swipe. Let me translate: choosing Brutal Slash has always meant volunteering to do no AoE at all. Brutal Slash is too limited in its AoE use due to its lack of damage overall and its 3-charge system. It’s actually like hitting a few targets with a wet, long spaghetti noodle that survived the consumption process and now flows in the water in a sink, waiting to be crushed into oblivion by the force of a sponge. Since BfA Brutal Slash has taken the spot of an effective energy-to-combo point gained-rate generator for single target and that’s its primary role. It replacing Swipe makes us deal basically no AoE, so in any raid setting that doesn’t demand big AoE (like 99% of the bosses, other classes just do it better) we default to the single target Brutal Slash setting and completely ignore it. I don’t think it should ever be like that, and Swipe being replaced by Brutal Slash fortifies the issue. I know historically the Feral’s niche has always been great single target, but why is it so restricted? It also completely deletes the right side of the tree from AoE use. It’s food for thought - which spec actually loses a whole part of their tree in any situation? It should always be playable. And instead, you will just use your Brutal Slash charges and then what, Rake, Shred in big AoE? With all that energy Ferals receive in the talent tree, spending it on such abilities due to a bad interaction and/or bad placement of one talent makes me lose words.

4. Predatory Swiftness and the Combat Rescue Breathing

It’s a definition of something that is so baseline that we find ourselves just randomly shifting out of Cat form to cast Regrowth when we don’t have it. This passive, allowing us to help with healing slightly, allowing us to have a filler spell that helps the group, is just deeply rooted in our usual gameplay and having it as a talent, especially in a bad place as it is now, is not the greatest idea in the world in my opinion. This should be 100% baseline. It’s always been a nice passive, not overpowered, not underpowered, that we’ve always been playing with, that has always made playing Feral (a hybrid spec) a bit different from just a rogue.

What can be done with Predatory Swiftness? First, I’d make it baseline. And I’d make it affect Rebirth too. Because Ferals, for some reason, are the only druid spec that needs to go out of the Cat form to cast a battle ress. Imagine someone dying during your Berserk - it was always a feels bad moment when you are assigned to CR job and you just have to leave your Cat form to cast it, then spend a global cooldown to be back in action. Complete rhythm negation. Predatory Swiftness working with Rebirth would make it feel a bit better, but Rebirth could also be castable in Cat form - just like owls can do it in Boomkin form, and bears in their Bear form. Predatory Swiftness with Rebirth could be a very nice quality of life improvement (and trust me, in many guilds boomy, warlock won’t always be that eager to cast that CR xD), whilst keeping some restrictions in place. It shouldn’t be that much of an issue - Restoration Druids sacrifice some of their throughput to get that instant Nature’s Swiftness Rebirth, right? It’s still better for them to hard cast it. I know it’ll be much stronger than Nature’s Swiftness, though. I think it’s worth considering though - either Predatory Swiftness working with Rebirth or just making Rebirth castable in Cat form.

5. Watering the Blood in the Water

As you may guess, it’s about bleeds. The title may remind you of the old Blood in the Water talent, which caused Ferocious Bite to refresh the Rip duration when used in execute window. I think Feral’s spec fantasy has too strong of a connection with bleeds and therefore there’s no reason for them to be so badly underpowered. For now bleeds are in a state of “use them IF the target will live for a whole duration”, otherwise just use other generators. And other generators aren’t any strong at all, which tells a lot. There’s one main thing about Feral right now: Ferocious Bite. Some people like the playstyle and some don’t. At some point though in the WoW development, a completely unique spec - Feral - was transformed and homogenized and instead of working in its own way, it just resembles so many other classes and just slightly modifies the whole playstyle. That’s a bigger point to discuss, though, and I don’t think it’s that relevant, so let’s leave it at that.

Reading Dreamgrove discord, speaking with many fellow Ferals and listening to the voice of my own gamer heart, I really feel it wouldn’t be a bad idea to bring back a true bleed playstyle with the addition of new talent trees. The tree could be way more expanded, like with other specs, some of the energy talents could be transformed, Berserk talents that I mentioned before could be modified around bleeds, there’s tons of possibilities to do it now in Alpha. Or the whole middle branch (which lacks the identity a bit) of the tree could make bleeds way more powerful, left side would be AoE then and the right side would be ST focused, as it is now. And no - multidotting the bosses in raid on a council fight wouldn’t be a big issue (though I understand that after Eternal Palace devs are a bit afraid of this). It’s a Feral druid. It won’t do that much spread cleave. In AoE it wouldn’t be overpowered too - it all revolves around burst, but why not at least do constant pressure on all targets in an unique way? For now it’s underpowered constant pressure completely overshadowed by other classes, like Windwalker and similar, so it doesn’t work at all, but what if bleeds were much stronger? Some initial ramp, then constant slappage. Fun!

On top of that, Adaptive Swarm has always been problematic due to bleeds’ tuning. It’s very fun to play it on Restoration druid, I’m not going to lie, especially with Circle or Draught legendaries combined with the covenant one that makes the swarms spread around and constantly jump. But for Feral it definitely lacks. Stronger bleeds would make the Adaptive Swarm playstyle a lot more appealing for sure. The one thing I’m worried about is Adaptive Swarm in single target. Adaptive Swarm without 2 points invested into the legendary effect talent (or just legendary as it is on live) actually adapts your brain to do a complete brainiac rotation with it, there exists a whole spreadsheet how to do that, when to cast what to maximise the uptime and I think the mind of 99% of players, including me, just lacks the ability to do it in meaningful content. It’s completely NOT easy at all. In AoE though? Just use Resto druid’s swarm weakaura and press it on friends when their party frames highlight themselves to maximise uptime. Still, it promotes lots of degeneracy, exactly like Owlweaving which should be completely gone. But that’s more of a problem with Adaptive Swarm, if it ever ends up being worth picking in single target setup for Feral, bleeds reworked or not.

I think going with bleeds as a general design idea for Feral would bring back many, many, many old players and interest some new ones. Bleeds always demanded some engaging management - snapshotting, multidotting, tracking of Pandemic duration and so on. I understand it won’t make Feral easier, but well, Feral has always been underplayed so it wouldn’t change a thing. And if Feral is actually good, even casual players that don’t spend half of their life on M+ and raids would at least try to pick it. Because bleeds are fun. Unique. Working with class fantasy.

6. Problematic talents

Here I will list talents that I can give feedback about, but I won’t connect them with other things unless necessary - just pure talent-per-talent feedback. I am really bad at figuring out the new possible connections and such, though.

  • Max Energy and Improved Tiger’s Fury - refer to point 2 of the feedback post,

  • Improved Shred - one of the unnecessary talents to work only during our Berserk; “craft your own CD” that feels displaced from it,

  • Improved Prowl - why 2 points for that? Additionally, it makes Improved Shred be worse, because with the usual tuning Rake is always worth casting from Stealth, never Shred (unless it’s Berserk window which works like Stealth when it comes to Shred/Rake),

  • Sabertooth - why not go for the Blood in the Water original design, make it an execute, all Ferals I know complain about it; go for bleeds, not bite all the way!

  • Berserk talents - refer to point 1 of the feedback post,

  • Brutal Slash - refer to point 3,

  • Lunar Inspiration - definitely a single target thing, it’s totally out of place. What if Savage Roar was in place of Scent of Blood, Lunar Inspiration in place of Savage Roar and Scent of Blood in place of Lunar Inspiration? Makes more sense, but probably a way better way to deal with it would be to just rework the connections between nodes,

  • Predatory Swiftness - refer to point 4,

  • Bloodtalons - just out of place definitely,

  • Adaptive Swarm - refer to point 5, I couldn’t hold myself from mentioning it with bleeds :O!

  • Incarnation/Convoke choice node - definitely doesn’t work with the nerfed Incarnation we get in DF, I don’t think it’s a choice to make, there’s just a vast discrepancy between both,

  • Soul of the Forest - I think it should stay, but as a talent that we pick on our way to mandatory stuff, it’s just very nice to play with,

  • Infected Wounds - I actually made a sheet with every slow available in game and no class, no spec has a slow that is applied to single target only with the press of 1 button. 20% slow is both meaningless/not even noticeable, every class and spec possessing such a rotational slow has it naturally work in AoE or cleave scenarios. Take Heart Strike, Remorseless Winter, Flamestrike as examples. I personally also think Infected Wounds should be out of the way and shouldn’t demand us to talent into it as it’s practically of no use at all, just a waste of a point, and if it stays in a different place in our talent tree, it should be buffed - to like 50%, maybe.

Thanks for reading, if you made it to the end. I hope the feedback reaches whoever it needs to reach and we can make Feral better. And please, the community will help you with it, just reach out to us!

Sincerely,
Riveth and Tremeow from Silvermoon, EU.

26 Likes

Any intent to add a cooldown reduction talent to convoke? Like the one below it? Because on a 2 min CD, convoke is hot garbage. Like, you use convoke and don’t get a flourish proc and then you have to wait another 2 minutes for it, unlike live where it’s only 1 min cd.

2 Likes

Greetings, Feral Druids! We’re excited to share that there is a new version of the Feral tree in the next Beta update. These are some meaty changes you can really sink your claws into, with new talents, lots of revisions, and changes to the tree layout. Here’s some of what we’re intending with these changes.

Identity

At its core, Feral’s gameplay is about applying and maintaining powerful bleeds on enemies, then spending additional combo points on Ferocious Bites for more damage. In 9.2.5, Ferocious Bite is extremely powerful (and extends Rips with Sabertooth), which can lead to it taking over your rotation. Our goal for this tree is to get back to bleeds, especially Rip, being the center of your damage and gameplay again, with Ferocious Bite adding additional damage when you have the combo points for it. We’ve changed or removed any effects that dynamically extend bleed duration, so maintaining bleeds will always be a part of your rotation.

We’ve added several options to make Bleeds more interesting or useful in different situations. Primal Wrath has been moved near the top of the tree to give Feral an AOE combo point spender early. There are also new talents to do things like briefly increase all Rip damage, consume part of Rip’s duration to deal some of its damage instantly, or make Ferocious Bite hit nearby bleeding targets. These new tools should also enable you to get full value out of every combo point in AOE combat.

We’ve also returned a lot of Berserk’s current power to the first point you spend in it, while keeping some additional talents to make it stronger (and adding some new ones).

Complexity

We pay a lot of attention to gameplay complexity. Feral has some talents that increase the complexity of its rotation in exchange for power. The challenge with these types of abilities, especially in Dragonflight’s talent trees, is that if they’re strong, they can feel required. In the case of Bloodtalons and Brutal Slash, we added alternatives for players who want most of the power without the complexity. In the case of Savage Roar, we removed it. We prefer Feral’s combo point spenders to focus on maintaining bleeds and weaving in Ferocious Bites when possible.

Choice

Many of the new talents are about giving Feral players tools to customize their gameplay in the direction they prefer. There are, of course, talents that strengthen AOE or single target damage (though you should always feel capable in both scenarios). But other options allow you to customize how much energy regeneration you have, how powerful your combo point builders are, how often you need to refresh your bleeds, or how powerful your Berserk & Tiger’s Fury cooldowns are.

We’re excited to hear your feedback on these changes and for you to have an opportunity to play them. Here’s what’s coming:

Protective Growth. New talent, row 2. Your Regrowth protects you, reducing all damage you take by 3% while it is on you.

Improved Bleeds. Changed to 1 rank (from 2).

Pouncing Strikes. New talent, row 3. Grants extra damage & combo points to Shred & Rake when striking from stealth.

Tireless Energy. Renamed from Max Energy, changed to 2 ranks (from 3) and grants 2% haste per rank.

Sabertooth. Now increases Ferocious Bite damage by 20% and increases damage dealt by Rip by 4% for each combo point spent for 4 seconds.

Piercing Claws (2 ranks). New talent, row 4. Critical Strike chance increased by 2%.

Double-Clawed Rake. New talent, row 4. Rake also applies Rake to 1 additional nearby target.

Sudden Ambush. Changed to 2 ranks (from 3) and grants 5% chance to strike as if from stealth per rank (up from 1%).

Dreadful Bleeding. New talent, row 5. Rip damage increased by 15%.

Berserk. Replaces Berserk: Relentlessness. Berserk now grants combo point refund on finishing moves and causes Rake & Shred to deal damage as if stealthed.

Tear Open Wounds. New talent, row 5. Primal Wrath consumes up to 4 sec of Rip damage on targets it hits and deals 75% of it instantly.

Taste for Blood. Changed to 2 ranks (from 3).

Ferocious Frenzy. New talent, row 6. Ferocious Bite also hits nearby enemies within 8 yds afflicted by Rip for 25% damage. Deals reduced damage over 8 targets.

Infected Wounds. Now also increases Rake damage by 20%.

Row 7 choice node:

  • Raging Fury. New talent. Finishing moves extend the duration of Tiger’s Fury by 0.2 sec per combo point spent.
  • Frantic Momentum. New talent. Finishing moves have a 3% chance per combo point spent to grant 10% Haste for 6 seconds.

Berserk: Heart of the Lion. New talent, row 7. Each combo point spent reduces the cooldown of Berserk by 0.5 seconds.

Berserk: Frenzy. No longer causes combo point generating abilities to reduce the cooldown of Berserk.

Wild Slashes. New talent, row 7, choice node with Brutal Slash. Swipe and Thrash deal 20% more damage.

Bite Force. New talent, row 9, choice node with Bloodtalons. Ferocious Bite and Rip deal +10% damage.

Row 9 choice node:

  • Veinripper. New talent. Rip & Rake & Thrash last +25% longer
  • Rip & Tear. New talent. Applying Rip to a target also applies a Tear that deals X Bleed damage per combo point spent over 6 sec.

Feral Frenzy and Apex Predator are now standalone talents.

Ashamane’s Guidance. Was Modal Cooldown Bonus. Gives auto attacks a chance to trigger Incarnation for 6 sec, or reduces Convoke the Spirits’ duration by 25% and gives it an increased chance to trigger a powerful ability.

Removed Talents

  • Improved Tiger’s Fury. Tiger’s Fury now always grants 50 Energy.
  • Improved Shred.
  • Improved Prowl.
  • Berserk: Jungle Stalker.
  • Savage Roar.
  • Draught of Deep Focus.

Thank you for your patience and your feedback!

8 Likes

And hello, Restoration Druids! A new Restoration tree will be sprouting into the next Beta build with spell changes, layout adjustments, multi-point node reduction, and new abilities! Players can also expect many previously Not Yet Implemented (NYI) talents to be ready for testing. We would like to give our thoughts on some of these upcoming adjustments.

Build Diversity and Support

A good amount of feedback for the Restoration Druid tree has been it felt very similar to the current Shadowlands build and there weren’t many variations to playstyle throughout the tree. To open build diversity we’ve focused on adding new tools to existing builds to change their gameplay and creating spells to support new playstyles. Lifebloom, for example, is seeing more talents throughout this tree now.

Mastery Mattering

Restoration Druid’s Mastery is a very compelling stat, but generally does not have a lot of areas of the game where it gets to shine. We are looking at old bonuses and new effects to incorporate Mastery further into the spec and give players more reason to think about their Heal over Time placement as they parse their group’s damage intake.

Layout Changes

The layout of the Restoration Druid tree has changed significantly from its previous iteration. The new layout is intended to provide more options and improved pathing. Here’s what players can expect to see:

New Talent Additions

Nature’s Splendor. New Talent, row 3. The healing bonus to Regrowth from Nature’s Swiftness is increased by 50%.

Flash of Clarity. New Talent, row 3. Clearcast Regrowths heal for an additional 30%.

Waking Dream. New Talent, row 4. Ysera’s Gift now heals every 4 seconds and heals for an additional 5% for each of your active Rejuvenations.

Nurturing Dormancy. New Talent, row 6. When your Rejuvenation heals a full health target, its duration is increased by 3 seconds, up to a maximum total increase of 9 seconds per cast.

Dreamstate. New Talent, row 6. While channeling Tranquility, your other Druid spell cooldowns are reduced by up to 10 seconds.

Verdancy. New Talent, row 7. When Lifebloom blooms, up to 3 targets within your Efflorescence are healed for X.

Budding Leaves. New Talent, row 9. Lifebloom’s Healing is increased by 6% each time it heals, up to 90%. Also increases Lifebloom’s final bloom amount by 15%.

Embrace of the Dream. New Talent, row 9. Wild Growth has a 100% chance to momentarily shift your mind into the Emerald Dream, instantly healing all allies affected by your Rejuvenation for X.

Regenerative Heartwood. New Talent, row 9. Allies protected by your Ironbark also receive 75% of the healing from each of your active Rejuvenations.

The complete list of changes will be released with the next beta build. Thanks so much for your continued feedback!

3 Likes

Hi, I would like to give my first impressions on the balance druid talents in their current state. (in combination with the general druid talents)

  1. Feels kind of bad to have to specc into my owl form from the general tree. I understand that the top 4ish tiers are Feral, Guardian, Resto and Balance in idea but having access to rake or having access to Moonkin Form is visually significant.

  2. I would argue to put Moonkin Form as the Apex choice in Balance instead of Eclipse, then split the tree thematically between Builder/Spender and Eclipse/Pendulum/Legion playstyles. An put the Force of Nature in the main tree as replacement of the starsurge and starfire as those are arguably very core to the balance druid and should be baseline (or early into the builderspender half as I suggested). NB. I know that they cannot be removed that is not what i mean by baseline here.

  3. Still this issue with Stellar Drift, I will reiterate my thoughts again from Shadowlands Beta. Detach the utility component from the damage component and only add that extra cooldown on top of the empowered starfall. Also, without any talents, Balance druid has no AoE AsP dump so, feels like an oversight to put that into a talent tree as a “choice” which it really is not at this point.

  4. Astral Dogs, I mean, Spirit of Goldrinn. Does a bit of damage for 2 talent points (i assume the change to spawn is increased but that is not mentioned anywhere) but has no interaction with the rest of the tree as far as I can see.

  5. Interrupt options… Solar Beam seems at a fine location but often the major CD felt “punishing” as compared to a melee kick the target just starts to cast a different spell. The talent (Light of the Sun) to lower the CD by 15 seconds on a successful interrupt feels lacking (especially as it is behind Astral Dogs). Really would like to see a passive reduction mechanic build in instead to justify its 1m CD especially because… Skull Bash

  6. (or actually 5b.) Skull Bash in the main tree is fine, but I wish it wouldn’t require 7 points to even unlock it. What is the reasoning for that choice? surely having a ranged caster move into melee range to skull bash should be “skill” enough. I do like the idea building into 2 possible interrupts but then again I used to have mighty bash for that so overall it feels like a loss.

  7. There is a way to build a balance/resto infused setup that utilizes orbit breaker and both dots as a core playstyle completely bypassing the moonkin form. this “choice” is such a moot one as that removes a 10% damage multiplier and a bunch of armor and anti-polymorph protection. It also feels very clunky to play so probably not a “viable” option as the dot damage still feels lackluster compared to surges on a target dummy at least.

So in conclusion, and mind you this is still my opinion, these talent trees are a mess. Hardly anything feels like a choice at all. Many of the “late” options are just old legendary effects that have been marginal pick rates at best, or downright avoid at worst. There is Legion legendary powers, Thorghast powers, Covenant powers and Azerite Traits all mangled into something that has to resemble a balance druid. I find it quite funny that you would put a “talent tree” up and then lock in Starsurge and Starfire because “they are for your balance specc and cannot be unlearned”. So you know that is distinctly balance but have no idea what else to put there it seems and just lock it in regardless.

My advice here is to just rework the trees, take some strong and lore based themes and make up some variations on old “borrowed” power and make them cool and fun to build for. I would be happy to build towards a celestial inspired “focused azerite beam” for example. When the talents are in the same branch let them at least thematically fit and preferably interact with each other. The "emerald"dream would be to have a gameplay style within the tree that you can build into and then sprinkle utility on top of that if need be depending on the goal (raid, m+, pvp etc).

And this goes for the other specc’s as well (mind you I have not had the time to fully explore those) but choosing a generic bear focus in the general tree and then build upon the Ursoc Lore in the Guardian tree really is that cherry on the top. Generic caster option in the general tree (builder spender with a sun theme maybe?) and full on “starlord galaxy powerhouse” in the balance tree with throwing moons (yes i did see the newhalffull moon talent at the bottom).

I feel that if most of the generic “builds” are simple and does what it says on the tin, then you do not need to spend several points into baking some extremely situational hybrid specc. In my opinion as that was never the goal of being a hybrid class. it is not the case that I should be able to swap into bear form as a balance druid and be as effective as the tank, but the hybrid dream is to be able to tank an add or the boss for a good while should the actual tank go down. Or pump some heals to help stabilize a bad pull in M+.

Finally a note, I am once again selected for the beta and because I have played this game so much and loved it to bits in the past (yes that has waned in recent years) I have opted to give my feedback once again. I am under no illusion that this might amount to nothing and all suggestions and feedback are just a waste of my time. That being said, I would be remiss to squander yet another, albeit hopeless, chance to actually have something done that would make this game better again. That lies with Blizzard though, not with us beta testers, pre-orderers or content creators. It is your game to fix for the better.

So first comments of the newly updated tree is that it’s a HUGE step up, there’s a lot of cool things in there that’re really exciting for the spec, some highlights …

  • AoE Bite
  • Cleave Rake
  • Able to “pop” PW DoTs
  • A reason to spam PW on AoE (new DoT)
  • Much cleaner tree with some good choices
  • Build-a-Zerk is much better
  • Some actual new mechanics!

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Some quick comments from a first glance …

  • I don’t really see the point of “Protective Growth” it’s in a weird spot and will likely never be taken, also 3% is arguably useless on top
  • Swapping Scent of Blood and the new Cleave-Rake ability “Double-Clawed Rake” would be great as people are much more excited for the Cleave-Rake than Scent of Blood but right now it’s quite expensive to get opportunity cost wise
  • Adding lines from “Survival Instincts” down to “Cat’s Curiosity” and “Carnivorous Instinct” would really open up the tree and make traversing from left to right much smoother
  • Swarm” is still very expensive to take needing effectively three talent points invested
  • Defensives with every spec getting tankier and newer toys to help survival, I’d love to see Feral get its 2-charge based 2 minute Survival Instincts back, it’s been weird without it

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Reasons to be brought, I think we have some solid reasons to be brought to raid with Mark of the Wild, Innervate, 1 minute Roar and potentially Nature’s Vigil, but those are all Druid things not Feral things.

For Raid, I’d like to see some sort of party buff to fit into this new party buff world that’s being created, something like Leader of the Pack coming back that doubles the strength of Mark of the Wild or increases crit % damage.

For Mythic Plus, I’d love to see Feral get something like Shroud, as the only really other stealth spec user, I feel it makes sense thematically, call it Ashamane’s Shroud, put it under Pouncing Strikes and copy/paste the Rogue shroud over.

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Generally the Druid Class tree isn’t great for Feral as most of the good stuff is on the Boomkin side, but shan’t go into that now

All in all though, very solid and love this iteration over the last one

P.s. I really hope that the AoE bite talent “Ferocious Frenzy” works with bites from Apex/Convoke, as that’ll be big fun

7 Likes

So after seeing the potential changes to the druid tree and the update notes for it here are some of the thoughts that crossed my mind:
Good

  • Opening up more options in the tree
  • More bleed style gameplay
  • Nodes seem to have more interaction on gameplay
  • There is thought for AoE and ST in potential good ways
    Its okay
  • Build a zerk looks better but still not in a state that all zerks are ‘strong’
  • Tons of passive play, and passive changes to gameplay
  • Tree is still not clearly divided on ST vs MT
  • Some of the cool abilities and nodes are placed very much outside of the main middle path without direct acces
    Bad
  • The lock for infected wounds and lunar inspiration are a bit over the top
  • A node being give 2 % crit or any form of stat doesn’t feel fun by any form or means
  • Taste for blood nummerically just feels weak
  • Missing out on a ‘new shiny to press button’ (something making feral feel a bit newer for DF)
  • The tree gives a lot of dmg options and bleed vs gameplay options but very little utility wise, (which is something that feral has been noturiously bad for, for many years)
  • Protective growth feels like a wasted node due to the requirement of regrowth to just get 3 % defensively, (forcing the feral to cast it on themselves) if it would be something like feral gives a party buff for 5 % dodge it might be a bit better but still no where near what it would need to be to be picked

General view
I think the tree is a clear 1 up from its last state, but as it stands still has some things that could use some tweaking like bringing stuff a bit more openly removing some of the stat nodes and maybe replace them with a feral unique utility (that isn’t going above and beyond utility levels) defensively feral could 1 up itself with the return of old survival insticts or created a way to use feral abilities for a short while in bear form.

I think its a matter of keeping on improving and making states like zerk more useful by giving all zerks some equal form of power, there is a lot of good things in the tree already although i would like a bit more AoE vs ST being implemented in it in the clear way of this is ST and this is AoE as the tree feels like it starts AoE right side but then adds in some ST stuff while the left side is doing the opposite.

Final Verdict
Its getting better but still some work to do!

*PS i did write all this before playing or testing, and basing it on the post itself and my knowledge on feral.

7 Likes

Hello again,

I am glad that Blizzard wants to reconsider resto druid’s mastery and its interaction with restoration healing. Right now, resto druids benefit from mastery the most when group size is as small as possible. This forces resto druids to have different gear setups for raids/RBGs and M+/arena, where they need to farm more gear in order to have these different gear setups. So yes, resto druid’s mastery is problematic. It’s also problematic in arena, when your teammate gets spam purged (with every HoT purged decreasing healing throughput by 10-15%, depending on your mastery rating). In comparison, resto shamans just benefit from mastery the lower health his teammate has, which is simply superior in both arena and raids/RBGs vs resto druid’s mastery. I actually, like how resto druid’s mastery works, however, you don’t get consistent benefit from it, whereas other healers’ mastery is more consistent in different situations. So I definitely think that something has to be done about our mastery.
So far, I came up with an idea that might fix this issue. Mastery can be slightly redesigned to something like this:
Mastery Harmony: For each different HoT effect active your healing throughput is increased by your mastery rating.
So basically, your throughput will not depend on how many HoTs you have on your target, but on how many different HoTs you have on the whole group. This will make mastery matter in both large raid groups and small party groups.
However, Improved Lifebloom (Lifebloom counts for 1-2 additional stacks of mastery), if it stays around, can make resto throughput too good with this mastery redesign. So in this case, Improved Lifebloom can be changed to something like this:
Improved Lifebloom: Lifebloom counts for 1-2 additional stacks of mastery on the target it’s active.

It appears we will be able to have both Photosynthesis and The Dark Titan’s Lesson, which is simply amazing! However with this setup, as I have mentioned in my previous post, as a resto druid you will always want to have one active Lifebloom to be active on yourself all the time and when you try to relocate your second Lifebloom, your first Lifebloom that is active on yourself may get relocated instead. Which in return may force you to waste too many GCDs for reapplying your Lifeblooms. To avoid this, Photosynthesis can be coded in such a way that when it’s paired with The Dark Titan’s Lesson Lifebloom will not get relocated from yourself, unless it expires or you purposely cancel aura Lifebloom on yourself.

Some feedback on proposed new talents:

Nature’s Spendor - as some have already mentioned, this talent isn’t really needed because Soul of the Forest buff + Nature’s Swiftness already heals a lot.

Waking Dream - brings inconsistent throughput in large groups vs small groups. But it’s definitely better than 3 rank talent that was in previous iteration.

Nurturing Diplomacy - this talent is just amazing, I love it. Hopefully, it also affects Germination.

Dreamstate - every resto druid will want to avoid this talent, because it is simply weak.

Verdancy - is a cool talent, but not relevant in arena, unfortunately.

Budding Leaves - it looks good on paper, but only so in PvE content. In PvP, you may not benefit from it much when your Lifeblooms are frequently purged or when you have to relocate your Lifebloom often.

Embrace of the Dream - sounds good overall, hopefully it will heal for a decent amount.

Regenerative Heartwood - I love this talent, a definite 10 out 10.

Overall, resto talent tree layout and the addition of new talents look very promising. However, there is something that is still not addressed PvP wise. Which is, we still don’t have some additional purge protection, that’s desperately needed for resto druids. Something like an ability that will make your HoTs immune to purge effects for a short period of time will be much appreciated. For example: When you use Swiftmend your target becomes immune to purge effects for 5 secs. ( this can be added to Grove Tending talent)

EDIT: Few points of weirdness in the Feral tree that’re arguably design oversights …

  • you can take Heart of the Lion without taking Berserk, Incarnation or Frenzy, which means you get to glow red every 2m instead of 3m
  • you can take Moment of Clarity without taking Omen of Clarity, which means you get 50% more procs of nothing and can stack nothing - you do need to take OoC to get past the 20pt mark, but not until then
  • If you skip Pouncing Strikes, does Sudden Ambush and Berserk do anything?

4 Likes

In light of the upcoming changes to feral druids I would like to give my 2 cents as well:

I am happy that the druid talent trees are finally being updated.

Firstly, I would like to suggest a few talent options, simply because they offer fun gameplay and to my surprise haven’t been implemented yet (or have been removed):

  • a talent that reduces the CD of ‘Convoke the Spirits’ to 1min

Convoke just feels 10x better when it is frequently available.

  • a talent that gives access to the current feral 4-set bonus ‘Sickle of the Lion’ (maybe as a choice node)

It’s surprisingly fun to use in Shadowlands and I’d hate to see it go.

  • please reintroduce the ‘Draught of Deep Focus’ talent.

I don’t see why Draught shouldn’t be offered as a gameplay choice at the lower part of the tree. The more options the better.

3 Likes

A New Tree

The new feral tree’s finally come so we now have something that feels worthwhile to talk about. It’s good to have some positives to talk about now as while this tree isn’t perfect it’s a monumental upgrade to what we saw before and we now have a huge amount of positive things we can say about it.

Philosophy

The philosophy mentioned in the post is a dream, things like “At its core, Feral’s gameplay is about applying and maintaining powerful bleeds on enemies, then spending additional combo points on Ferocious Bites for more damage” is exactly what I want to read and is a welcome return to a healthier spec. The entire section about adding additional gameplay and ways of playing around bleeds both in single target and AOE is fantastic and is a welcome innovation on feral’s core gameplay.

The sections about AOE in particular fantastic and open a window to a more engaging and interesting AOE rotation than feral has ever had before in any iteration, looking forward to playing around with these changes in dungeons on alpha to see how they actually play but the initial description has me excited. Feral has had strong aoe in the past but i don’t think it has ever been as engaging as this appears to be at first glance.

While this is a monumental improvement that i’m looking forward to playing around with further, I do think that it’s not quite perfect yet and I do have some issues with some options. Some of these options are potentially tuning related so i’ll endeavor not to focus on those to start with and instead consider more structural issues.

Talent Placement and Protective Growth

There are some issues with where certain talents are placed, the new regrowth talent, protective growth, has a couple of issues, with placing, with tuning (will not focus on this), and with dependencies. As a pure utility option it is in an awkward spot as it has no children talents, it’s an early dead end. At it’s initially presented value it’s not really strong enough to ever justify a point, particularly with the number of talents above the gate. There’s more than enough points you can spend to never take it and if you can avoid it you’re going too. The other issues with this talent are it’s HEAVY dependency on another talent without talenting predatory swiftness it’s almost never going to be active, with predatory swiftness you have a lot of space to throw out regrowths on yourself to gain a defensive option however without the talent it won’t ever really be gameplay to shift out, cast a regrowth, and continue on for 3% damage reduction.

Predatory Swiftness

Predatory swiftness has it’s own issues in terms of placement being a utility point that doesn’t really have a twin in terms of placement, maybe the idea is to balance this around the fact that the right side is extremely heavy on AOE but I think it feels a little uncomfortable in terms of pathing, I think i’d like this to be made a borderline unskippable node (similar to tiger’s fury) and have AOE spread a bit more.

Piercing Claws

The piercing claws node is in a bizarrely placed spot I think, it’s a dead end node that gives a flat stat buff, it’s not particularly interesting nor is it particularly strong. It feels extremely placeholder in terms of its placement and design. If it’s going to exist it should probably mirror Tireless energy more but I’d like this to be revisited.

AOE placement

As mentioned the right side of the tree has a really heavy AOE focus, this makes pathing around it feel awkward and a bit pigeonholed whereby if you’re talenting for single target you go left and if you’re talenting for aoe you all in on the right hand side, I think this should be revisited a little and have AOE spread a little bit more around the top half on both sides, with powerful options (like veinripper or apex) that work in multiple situations further down the tree, this further enforces a baseline level of AOE while still allowing you to path into or around powerful aoe options without feeling pigeonholed into committing to one side dependent on the type of content you are doing.

Swarm Split

Adaptive swarm having an additional further two points in order for it to be usable on AOE feels a little odd to me, particularly with it’s placement, ideally I’d like to see the swarm split reviewed further with an eye to reducing it to 1 point or to baselining it into swarm.

Owlweaving

One thing that hasn’t been touched yet (and maybe shouldn’t be in this part of the tree but still matters) that I think is close to the heart of many ferals is owlweaving. Owlweaving is the act of in moments of downtime in the rotation shifting into moonkin form, applying sunfire and moonfire (and using heart of the wild to starsurge). I don’t want to speak for the entire community but I do think it’s reasonable to say that this isn’t exactly widely loved and in fact the majority of people would love for it to go away and not come back. Things like furor and being able to cast sunfire while not in moonkin form seem to s suggest that it might end up being exaggerated in dragonflight. Hopefully this is considered.

Group and raid utility

The last thing that i’m still uncertain about in regards to feral is it’s lack of something that allows it to compete for melee slots outside of pure damage, going into dragonflight many more classes and specs, particularly melee, are getting group buffs, outlaw rogue, assasination rogue, both warrior specs, to go along with stuff like windfury already existing and specs bringing strong raid cd’s like rallying cry and darkness. I’d like to suggest that this is reviewed further in regards to feral.

Conclusion

I think all in all this is a hugely positive step forward and were this to go live as is then it wouldn’t feel me with as much dread as the previous iteration, I would however like to see some further iterations with a little more TLC to smooth over some of the jaggedy edges. I’m sure after getting in and actually playing around with the talents i’ll have further commentary on how things feel or seem, and maybe some of my issues will end up unfounded but based on my initial viewing and experimentation with this tree I think this covers most of my issues.

5 Likes

Following up on my previous point I think I’d like to see a swap like this explored

Swap

Legend

Issues addressed

I mentioned it in my previous post that I think there’s an issue with the right side being too heavily AOE focused while there’s very little AOE on the left hand side. I also think the existing right hand side talent going Tear Open Wounds into Ferocious Frenzy feels somewhat counterproductive where one talent is encouraging you to spam PW somewhat, while the other is encouraging you to apply PW and then bite.

My suggested swap adds some synergistic AOE onto the left hand side while also opening up the possibility for a non primal wrath 2 or 3 target cleave build manually applying rips and then adding damage to each of those targets with bite via ferocious frenzy and sabertooth while still making them available to builds that want to invest heavily into aoe on the right side.

3 Likes

I see Adaptive Swarm is still on our talent tree, which means that it will de facto choice for every resto druid in arena again. I and maybe many other druids are already tired of this ability. Is there any chance we could have some strong talent that would directly compete with Adaptive Swarm? Even kyrian ability as a choice node between Adaptive Swarm and Kindred Spirits or a flat mastery bonus like Kindred Affinity would be much apreciated.

Hey all,

I play resto druid mostly so here goes:

Starsurge is bugged out. if you pick it and are in moonkin form you wont be able to cast is in resto spec. it keeps saying, requires moonkin form.

Nurtering instinct is a 3 pont talent wich is too expensive. We are forced to take to continue down the paths.

Frenzied regen requires bear form. Can we not have this as the conduit version in shadowlands? As a resto druid you mainly only jump into bear form to take less dmg.

Astral Influence was part of the moonkin form. one of the reasons we took it was to have more range on our healing spells. can we have it back in there are spending 3 points to have to take moonkin form and after influence to continue further down the path is too expensive.

Lycera’s teaching could revert to a 2 point node. 3 ponits for 6% is expensive.

Innervate should be a core spell. we should not have to use 1 point too have it in our aresenal as druids are mostly struggeling with mana cause we have to maintain hots on all

I will refrain from commenting on the new resto tree as it has been changed and will have to see how it plays before i give feedback on it.

1 Like

Firstly, I want to thank the devs for the huge updates to the feral spec tree. They represent an enormous improvement and things that feral desperately needed. There are still some things that need tweaking, but I’ll wait until I’ve had a chance to test it on beta before I comment in more depth. (Broadly, I agree with most of what Fore and Guilty have said.)

There are still other things that I want to comment about. One is the druid class tree, which is also in need of an overhaul (but I’ll get to that in a bit). The other is feral’s desperate need for a unique ‘selling point’ that isn’t shared with other druid specs. This probably feels like it’s been done to death, but hear me out.

Feral is in a unique place among melee dps specs in that any group or raid wide buff it brings can also be provided by not one or two, but three other roles. We have Stampeding Roar and we can now get that down to 60 second CD, which is great. But here’s the problem.

If one of the tanks is guardian, our raid buff is redundant.
If one of the healers is resto, our raid buff is redundant.
If neither of those are present, we are not only competing for a coveted melee dps spot against all the other melee specs and the buffs they bring; we are also competing with the ranged spec from our own class.

Tell me honestly, assuming you have 2 equally competent players, one playing balance and one playing feral, which are you more likely to bring to the raid? Unless you’re already full on ranged (which is unlikely, let’s face it), you’re going to take the boomkin. You’re not going to block off a melee spot for the sake of a buff that can be brought by a ranged dps.

This is why feral needs its own, unique raid buff. The easiest solution to this would be to turn the new crit node (which people have commented is rather unexciting as a personal buff) into a raid-wide buff, and make it more than 2% for 2 ranks (unless you mean it’s 2% per rank, for a total of 4%, which is rather nicer).

Class tree

I can - sort of - see the idea behind the class tree, but it’s been put together rather badly.

Once again, we have some 3-point nodes, 3 of them, in important places. Those are going to be reduced to 2 points, at most, aren’t they? Please.

Regarding those 3-point nodes, the position of Killer Instinct, directly above Skull Bash, which is itself on an end node, is very worrying. Experienced players are going to grit their teeth and spend the 3 points to get to the essential interrupt, but I worry that less experienced players will figure they can do without it because it’s 4 points that they can spend on more exciting stuff. Possible changes:

  • Reduce the points requirement for Killer Instinct to 1 or 2.
  • Swap the nodes so that Skull Bash is above Killer Instinct and feels like less of a sacrifice to take.
  • Shift things around a bit so that the nodes have an onward connection into the lower parts of the tree.

Nurturing Instinct is another 3-point node that needs to be changed. I’m not knowledgeable about Resto or Balance, but the expenditure seems excessive. And Cyclone is a utility spell that is, once again, on a dead end node. A downward connection from that pair of nodes would, once again, encourage people to take it.

And the final 3-point node, Lycara’s Teachings, blocks us from accessing Improved Stampeding Roar if we don’t spend all 3 points, which must feel like a slap in the face for Guardian players, who are having to invest those 3 points to get something they already had. It feels like a slap in the face for feral, to be honest. We’re finally being given something we’ve been asking for, but the cost is high.

Another thing that I think needs to be looked at is the position of Thick Hide below Ironfur. There doesn’t seem to be any reason for it other than to force those of us who want the damage reduction, but don’t have a use for Ironfur, to spend an unnecessary point. They could do with being swapped. Guardian players are going to take Thick Hide anyway, so it isn’t forcing them to spend points to access Ironfur.

Furor has already been discussed a lot. I’ve hesitated to enter the conversation because I’ve been busy trying to figure out how I would use it, and I haven’t come up with anything much. Maybe it has a use for Guardians in raid, to buff damage a bit when cat-weaving. Maybe Resto players can make use of it for the same reason. Maybe PvPers can use it for survival or off healing. These things seem quite niche for a capstone talent, though.

The overall problem I can see is the general layout of the tree. Everything is so spread about, and things that are currently baseline to the class or various specs (Maim, Skull Bash, Cyclone, Hibernate, Typhoon) are on nodes with no downward connections, that I end up spending all my points just to get back what I already have - plus a one minute Stampeding Roar. That isn’t fun or exciting, and it leaves no room for creativity.

I don’t know what the solution is to the layout. The classes that have seen a lot of work and improvements seem to have ‘tidier’ class trees, with a lot more connections between nodes and fewer end nodes. Perhaps that’s a place to start.

And finally, why is Force of Nature not in the class tree? As much as some feral players are asking for it, I can understand why Solar Beam is in the balance tree - it’s a balance themed ability. But Force of Nature? That’s druid themed. It’s being given to one spec, and the other 3 specs are being denied it for no reason that I can see. This time of change seems like a perfect opportunity to remedy that.

7 Likes

[BUG] For the druid restoration:
After a combination (which I did not find) that does not seem random, since it was repeated 2 times, casting a heal spell in a loop without it being interrupted.
The only possible choice during this loop is the walk/run, without changeform.

Today he started again, but this time it’s not a heal spell but a drink. only the reload works to stop him. all touches lead to drinking the potion.

For Feral I think lowering the stat weight on mastery, and add dmg into base abilities instead, could make it more viable for m+.

For guardian , thematically, I would like crit having more value/interaction with our toolkit. versa/haste are the most uninteresting stats in the game. Mastery could also use a buff so we can get back our niche of big meatshields.

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