is there anyone else that wanna see resto druid get twin moon? or am I the only one?
Hey there, just dropping in for some takes (:
I think there’s still another solution to this problem. Convert the node under CA into a choice node of current Pulsar and a simple 1 minute cooldown reduction to CA.
That way you could still play a 2 minute CA to coordinate Go’s in PvP, and you would certainly still want to align the 1:30 CD Orbital Strike with that.
The goal of having some burst plus an on demand application of Stellar Flare (and Waning Twilight) is one worth pursuing, and even better with the proposed mastery change because you can just cast Orbital Strike for 2/3 of it’s upfront damage value when applying DoTs is not worth it.
I think there are definitely scenarios for the opposite as well, so this is kind of a wash.
Personally, I would like to see Solar Beam moved to be baseline in a future patch so we gain 1 spec tree point in the upper third of the tree.
That way Aetherial Kindling and Lunar Shrapnel could be moved into the first gate, leaving room for Stellar Innervation to move to the current Lunar Shrapnel position as a 2 pointer mirroring Waning Twilight. For visual reference: https://i.imgur.com/xEa6krI.png
This would clean up a lot of the tree, making it more symmetrical and we might even be able to take Treants of Solar Beam CDR as niche utility when we don’t need Aetherial Kindling.
Overall, there’s still a lot of room for improvement for certain talents (Stellar Flare being the ST/low target go-to, Umbral Embrace being more of a thing and having a nice visual like back in beta, Sundered Firmament being undertuned for a tier 3 talent and being blocked by Umbral Embrace, as well as a few others).
But I think solving the the Orbital Strike + 2 minute CA issue would go a long way to give both PvE and PvP players what they want while keeping the intended goal of diversifying Balance Druid talent builds a bit more.
Thank your for reading, as always 
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That might not be enough to make it a good talent, but I do agree that the better approach would be to have both. The question is why does Blizzard not want us to have them both? Too much free uptime on Stellar Flare? If that’s the issue make Orbital or the new talent not apply Stellar but increase the direct DMG or have it grant a different effect like like Orbital applies Moonfire / Sunfire to everyone hit, new talent applies Stellar to everything hit? That way you could take both or one if you prefer Pulsar or Shrooms.
Yeap, that would be a good idea, since you always take it and the picks in the first tier are very limited, having even one more talent there could give us some choice.
I like what they did with Resto Treants, I’d love having something like that for Balance. Have them cast something, do some DMG, not only be a tank saver in high keys.
I think the issue was that early on into development Bala would just generate crazy amounts of AP and this talent was one of the causes. If AP regen is the issue keep AP low, but at very least let’s have it deal DMG? Currently I don’t think this talent is ever taken.
From a PvP perspective having the cast not be Astral and kicks blocking Nature + Arcane would be a great QOL fix. Also have it more consistent might be nice? Maybe every 2nd eclipse gives you 3 stacks of Umbral making your next 3 casts empowered? Maybe the talent is ok, I personally just don’t like having random procs almost at all. I like to have everything planned and expected 
Good feedback, let’s hope Blizzard at least looks at some of our ideas.
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A choise node with Skull Bash & Solar Beam…roughly in the middle of the class tree.
Something like that?
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Honestly at this point the best solution would be to make CA a 2 min cd baseline. It has nowhere near the powerlevel to justify it being a 3 min cd. It is outclassed by every 1- and 2-min cd in the game.
It also doesn’t line up with anything. It’s always slightly off compared to everything else. Every dps external like PI, blessings, breath of eons is designed around 1- and 2-min cds.
Even most raid fights are buildt around 1- and 2-min timers, a trend that keeps on going. Just one example from the new raid, Amirdrassil, is Tindral, second to last boss. You come out of every intermission with a damage buff, and every 1- and 2-min cd is back up, but moonkins are forced to sit on their hands, because their cooldown isn’t up yet.
This is just a few examples that outline a major problem in the current game. It is clear that the game is favoring the shorter cooldowns, with aug evoker, the newest spec, also being designed around 1- and 2-min cds. Meanwhile moonkins are kinda stuck in the past, dealing with their 3 min cd. It’s time for a change. Make it happen.
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With the PTR build that went live moments ago:
- DRUID
- Balance
Orbital Strike has been redesigned – Call down a bombardment of celestial energy over the target area, blasting all enemies for Astral damage and applying Stellar Flare to them for 16 seconds. Generates 30 Astral Power. Orbital Strike still hits enemies in a 40 yard line and has a 90 second cooldown. Now a choice node with Wild Mushroom.- Mastery: Astral Invocation has been updated – Your Nature spells deal increased damage and additional damage to targets affected by Sunfire. Your Arcane spells deal increased damage and additional damage to targets affected by Moonfire.
- Friend of the Fae’s tooltip changed to “When a Faerie Dragon is summoned, your spells deal 10% increased damage for 20 seconds.”
- Developers’ note: This is a tooltip consistency change, not a functional changes. Balance spells whose tooltips say they modify your Arcane and Nature spell damage, like when you get the benefit of both Eclipses during Celestial Alignment, provide double their bonus to Astral spells. Friend of the Fae does not.
- Orbital Strike is reverted to its original design and location in the talent tree.
- Wild Mushrooms damage increased by 10%.
- The positions of the Aethereal Kindling and Lunar Shrapnel talents have been swapped.
- Feral
- Rampant Ferocity damage increased by 10%.
- Feral Druids can cast Innervate in Cat Form.
- Relentless Predator now reduces the Energy cost of Ferocious Bite by 10% (was 20%).
- Apex Predator’s chance to activate against a single target is reduced to 7.2% (was 9%), but the rate it activates against additional targets is increased.
- Restoration
- Fixed an issue that caused Efflorescence to slay Grove Guardians.
- Wild Growth now costs 4% base mana (was 4.4%).
- Regrowth now costs 3.2% base mana (was 3.4%).
- Balance
You guys are Serious, what have it to do with “Druid (Feral) Feedback” WE WANT A REGROWTH BUFF or atleast more Armor in catform, how can it be so hard to understand??
Why?, in this Point u can Already remove this Talent, it was before the nerf a really niche talent, now its Completely worthless u guys dont have a Plan how feral works or? Get back your Druid developer who left your company
Sry guy for the toxicity at this point, but how can be a company so incompetent when it comes to feral since df?
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Better start thinking about how to compensate for the Blood Frenzy nerf. Rage economy feels gutted and the entire talent tree starts to collapse in on itself. Many talents are much worse because of it (Iron Thorns, CDR for Incarnation, Wildfire, even the amount of absorbs from Raze).
After a little bit of testing I find myself using Swipe much more frequently because I don’t have enough Rage on big pulls to replicate the playstyle we enjoyed previously. I probably won’t be pressing Raze or Maul as often unless the resource free cast lights up, instead I am struggling with maintaining Ironfur.
Can we talk about filling the void with a significant buff to Swipe? Why not try making Gory Fur more useful, maybe add flavor to the flat 20% damage Mangle talent or buff Improved Survival Instincts so it offers something more in addition to a second charge, which in all honesty is a one-time deal during boss fights. Pathing towards Wildfire isn’t that attractive and taking Improved Survival Instincts isn’t ideal without Survival of the Fittest so the right end of the talent tree is likely dead, both in AOE and single target tanking.
I believe most players will be trying to mitigate the Rage nerf with Layered Mane and Reinforced Fur. Really what’s the point of having a choice if there is no choice to be made? You’re just cornering us into picking the least worst talents once again and all the progress made this expansion over unreasonable panic nerfs and balancing the class around the new tier set rather than the opposite approach.
You mean the one who created the original feral tree for DF? The one that was completely unplayable. And then trolled us by swapping the locations of 2 talents when we begged for it to be completely redone. No thanks.
There are still problems with what they’re doing, but we at least perform well in M+ and around average in raid.
Any chance of reminding Blackberry that we haven’t had an explanation of why they are claiming that making Rebirth more difficult and dangerous to cast, and more likely to result in death of the feral character while failing to resurrect the target, than the combat rez of any other melee dps spec is considered an ‘appropriate level of friction’?
Right now, the only reasonable explanation I can see is “we don’t want you to play feral”. Is this true? If so, why?
Im going to refer to the post from Jundarer in the us forums because he summed it up pretty good.
Balance Druid feedback:
10.1.5 and 10.2 brought and will bring several changes that are partly positive but also have a lot of negative gameplay implications. In the hopes of having some of these problems fixed or reverted, I compiled a list of all feedback I have:
Looking back at 10.1.5 changes:
- The Nature’s Grace change feels absolutely terrible to play with. It heavily punishes extending Incarnation with a Pulsar proc and not waiting for an Eclipse to end before proccing Pulsar. Additionally, it made our burst feel far worse simply because we always have 15%(now 10%) less haste during it. The only upside is no longer having to enter Eclipse before using our cooldown but that upside does not even close to make up for how bad it feels to play now.
- Warrior of Elune has been band-aid fixed and is still in the weird position where it gives 3 charges but you only ever use it to enter Solar Eclipse. Due to it directly competing with Aetherial Kindling(now Shrapnel), it cannot be used in any extended AoE where the 3 charges make sense.
- Radiant Moonlight reducing Fury of Elune’s cooldown by 5s less (40s->45s CD) has MAJOR gameplay implications as the 40s allowed it to line up with every Pulsar window at most haste levels. Now you basically always end up having Fury of Elune coming off CD when Pulsar just ended. This change simply made the talent feel infinitely worse to play and perform in connection with FoE.
- Stellar Flare is still worse in(basically) all situations and still feels bad to play. Since it competes with Wild Surges it reduces your AP gen by quite a lot and the cast time also does not add gameplay value.
- While Moons can feel pretty good to play there are common problems with overcapping due to Full Moon generating 50 AP which is half our AP bar. Since in AoE, we need 50 AP to cast Starfall it is often impossible to not overcap as you will generate 10-20 AP during the cast.
10.2 changes:
- Goldrinn was moved to no longer block Rattle and Weaver which is a great change in itself. Unfortunately it now blocks Incarnation which is a must pick in every situation. Both Umbral Embrace and Balance of BoAT suffer from the fact that the 2nd point in them has far less value (33% for Umbral and 50% for BoAT) so you never want to take the 2nd point unless you are forced to. As it stands, there is no way around either of those or Goldrinn to get to Incarnation.
- Orbital Strike becoming a viable option was a great change that many people appreciated. It is very sad to see it being reverted for the sole sake of PvP even though there are many, far better options that don’t hurt either mode.
- Swapping the position of Aetherial Kindling and Lunar Shrapnel would be good if the provided logic makes sense. As it stands, Lunar Shrapnel isn’t always the better option to take and there are numerous situations where you’d want to take Kindling but not Shrapnel(M+, low target sustained AoE). As an example, in sustained AoE Kindling adds about twice as much damage as Shrapnel does. For short living adds Shrapnel is better of course. While this change isn’t purely negative, it just moves the problematic situations elsewhere.
- Rattle the Stars becoming a passive talent is fine in a vacuum as it’s correct that it often conflicted with Starlord, although it can be argued that this added some depth. Unfortunately, this also means another gameplay element is removed and the spec becomes even simpler than it already is. It’d be nice if it was instead replaced with something that adds depth and doesn’t conflict with other gameplay elements.
- The mastery change will be a nice damage increase for burst AoE even though we still won’t be good at it(give back Orbital). A good change either way until it stops us dotting at too low of a target count which is not the case with current numbers at least.
- The 2-set works kinda wonky as it often just sets your Wrath or WoE buffed Starfire to the gcd cap (happens for any haste values above 20%). In general it makes going into an Eclipse feels less bad, so it’s a nice QoL set either way. Arguably QoL like this should be baseline instead of being found in a set though. Otherwise the spec will just feel worse to play afterward, like is the case with losing the Sunfire radius we have in our Tier 30 set. The 4-set will be a very big but more or less passive damage increase. It has to be noted that it goes against the 2-set and Nature’s Grace which both want an Eclipse to expire while the 4-set promotes extending it.
General feedback:
- The middle of the tree is still muddled with the 3 2-point talents that all more or less do the same(except the first point of Smolder): Astral Smolder, Umbral Intensity and Umbral Embrace all just buff Wrath or Starfire with no changes to gameplay. Buffing them didn’t really change anything except for taking them in a theoretical pure AoE scenario like Council last tier was and having us skip the bottom part of our tree.
- We are one of the squishiest specs after having been left behind in class tree reworks and in general not receiving any survivability creep that many other specs received. For any high damage intake fights we are by far the spec that dies the most Example Rashok because we simply have no way to deal with taking high unavoidable damage other than afking in Bear Form at which point you may as well respec into Guardian. Barkskin is a joke of a cooldown, to the point that other specs have more dr passively than us with Barkskin up.
- The removal of Stellar Drift was a good choice since it was way too strong but it has also left us with nothing to do for extended movement. Our AP cap being 100 means we can only pool 2 Starsurges. Dots were buffed to generate more AP but then fillers were buffed so spamming dots is now comparatively useless again. We are desperately missing some way to deal with movement that doesn’t feel bad.
- Rising Light, Falling Night making you lose 1% dps when the server time hits 18:30 feels bad and makes no sense. This should be set in instanced content or not have such a large gap between the values. Additionally, having to pick another talent reduced the number of talents we can pick again even though we were already unable to pick most utility abilities when taking something like Decurse.
All this said, the spec still feels mostly good to play but coming from 10.0 the spec lost a lot of depth and there is so much potential that is simply held back by bad tuning, node movement or mechanical choices. Thanks for reading
4 Likes
Doesnt he left before Dragonflight, i think he left at the End of Shadowlands?, i can be wrong
Well u have to See it from a Pvp perspective The Pathing Row, to get Dispell curse, and Cyclone is not Okay
in M+ i dont care about the Pathing, + the Fact that Regrowth Heals for nothing, even less in Arena / Dmg wise, fun wise Feral looks good in M+ to me, but even in m+ Feral have a utility Problem, and it feels bad when the Healer dies, and i have to move back from meele mobs, and then casting 2 Sec Battle ress…
But Yeah, the Normal Druid Tree still needs a Rework, and Make owlform Baseline, nobody cares anyway about this Spell except Boomkin, this is Just Goofy, that u have to Skill Starfire → Sunfire → Moonkin Form → and 2 Talent Points into Naturing Instinct to get Clone, so i have to take 5 Useless Talents to get Clone, and i dont have Enough points to get Dispell curse…
Why did they Make Sap from Rogue “Baseline” and Dispell curse or Clone for Feral not?
Maybe thats why?
They left while DF was in beta, having designed the first versions of the druid talent trees and then done nothing in response to beta feedback for at least a month.
Yes, I’ve said this in my earlier feedback. It’s barely been touched since the original version.
But if that’s the case, why don’t they want us to play feral? When Ion said that of demonology warlock, it was because it was about to be stripped of its iconic ability. Feral doesn’t have anything iconic to take away.
Hurts to hear it
Just woander if they do now, it Sounds to me that devs are still out of touch with feral, when they are Thinking, that is good game design and it has to do with [Friction] when Feral have to cast Rebirth and leaving the Form, and waste another gcd to enter Catform again
The Same Counts for the Dispell part, we cant Take Dispell in Pvp Situations cuz Friction?
Yeah the only thing what they did most likely was decreasing the cost of some Passive 3/3 Talents to 2/2
i still hope for a Rework, im tbh Really fine with the Normal Feral Tree, but The Normal Druid Tree is just a Abomination who still stucks in the Beta
I’ve been asking myself this question since Bfa, and even more in Dragonflight, Maybe Ion just have a Cat allergy?
but yeah, i hope they Finally listen to Feedback, atleast in this Patch when it comes to the Normal Druid Tree, i mean we dont even ask for “much” we dont need a Rework like Ret did, we just need a littel Rework when it comes to the Normal Druid tree, and just revert the Rebirth Nerf, it was in Legion a Instant cast, and nobody complained about it…
The problem with General Druid talent tree is that gameplay-wise it feels as if has been designed for a different version of the game. Every branch is disconnected one from another, and some of the specs have it much harder than others.
If I decide to deal damage, I don’t need claws and a wizard hat at the same time because one is much worse than another, always. When I decide to mix in some healing support, it won’t help much in combat due to poor scaling and the best it can do is replace a hot pie and some water during downtime in battlegrounds and tanking related talents are mostly useless outside of tanking a single hard hitting ability in PVE. I don’t know what armor is good for because every class now has spell damage to replace what once were physical abilities. It is silly how much more durable a non tank-paladin with a shield is unless I build up 2-3 stacks of Ironfur first.
Isn’t it a bit silly how some other classes heal themselves for much more through Leech stat than some of the “hybrids” maniacally spamming basic heals?
The tree promises flexibility and versatility but instead we get a whole bunch of useless roleplay garbage buttons which are useful to us like Arcane Shot for Survival Hunters.
We can perform four different roles which is much more than the three dps-only bastard classes, but the basic kit doesn’t feel interesting and unique because all abilities are shared.
For this expansion the devs have successfully turned a single row of Affinity talent into a complete mess where only receive the illusion of choice. Some key talents along the way require too much of an investment and all specs aim to reach the same nodes at the bottom. Instead of having to pick something situationally useful, we hope to pick something not completely useless.
Guardian for example, they’re probably all pathing into Balance side of the tree. Thanks for giving us Moonkin form early but one of the reasons you won’t ever be utilizing it even while off-tanking is four other Moonfire-empowering Guardian talents which make this buff only work in Bear Form. What can we benefit from on the Feral side? Some movement speed at most.
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There are two key problems with the class tree, and I think a dev attempting to address both of them would find it much easier to build the whole thing into a coherent whole:
- The number of end nodes above the capstones - 7 in total. (Monk has one, paladin has zero.)
- The lack of cross-tree connections. A monk or paladin starting with the top node on one side can cross the entire tree to reach the capstone on the other side. Druids cannot.
Fix those problems and I think it will become relatively easy to design a tree that works for every spec.
The main issue in the class tree is us having just too many spells, too many specs and useless spells from every spec in one tree.
Instead of having 15 spec specific nodes that you will never use in any other spec, let’s have “Form Affinities” at the start of the tree. And those affinities give you the basic spells needed for that role
Balance Affinity - Starfire, Sunfire, Moonkin Form - all in one talent.
Bear Affinity - Thrash, Iron Fur, Frenzied Regen
Cat Affitnity - Rake, Rip, Thrash
Healer Affinity - Rej, Swift, Dispell
This way we just added room for 10 new nodes that can be more utility oriented or power ups for affinities. It’s crazy that I can go feral, I can take all healing related talents and even Heart of Wild and I’m still healing for 40-50k regrowths even after using a 5min CD to boost my healing powers.
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That’s a tuning problem, not a problem with talent tree design.
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I’d say it’s both. You don’t want to give feral healing for free probably? So having a tree that allows you to pick that you want Healer Affinity and the 3 talents under that boost your healing is probably the best way to do this? This way you pick - do I wanna use regrowth, do I wanna use moonfire in cat form (could be moved to class tree under Balance Affinity), do I wanna be tanky in bear (you could give 2x frenzy under the Bear Affinity) etc.
Why not? Most other dps specs now have more healing ‘for free’ than feral does.
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You are actually right, I read too much comments about how Feral is already broken and low healing is our only weakness and we can’t just buff Feral healing.
For Feral to be anywhere close to other DPS we would need probably a 100% healing buff on Regrowth, remove the 50% nerf from regen, buff LotP cause it’s doing laughable healing, like 100k after a 3-4min round, what is that like 500HPS for a PvP talent? Maybe that will be enough to bring us closer to what others do passively, while we actually need to change forms, cast all of this.
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