Feedback: Druids

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Druids in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

1 Like

Hey dear game designers, dear devs,

WARNING 1: This post address mainly the problems of guardian druid, especially with the Druid of the Claw Herotalents choosen.

WARNING 2: I just got good feedback from druid discord and will work this into here later. So this post is not finalized now.

UPDATE 11th June 24: I now worked in some of the suggestions from druid discord. So read the part with the suggested class tree changes again! And look up the updated imgur picture. One problem we all see but we dont have a solid solution ourself is the Fluid Form positioning.

I just called in sick at work for today to work at an overhaul of the druid class tree since (sorry to say that) it is pretty horrible in the actual beta state.

I will explain to you what exactly the problem with it is and how to get rid of these problems by showing two variations of a partial adjusted talent tree by me :slight_smile: I hope to get feedback from you and other players for my work I did in the past several hours.

First let’s have a look into the problems:

Especially as guardian there are a few nodes you will NEVER use but you are forced to pick in order to get to locked behind nodes. Same is the case for one talent that is locked behind a lot of feral/guardian nodes that resto/balance maybe wanna take.

Guardians wanna take Nurturing Instinct and the following Natural Recovery, followed by the right-hand path down. These right-hand options are hidden behind Rejuvenation + Remove Corruption or Starfire + Sunfire - so you have to waste at least 2 talentpoints to get there. Also sometimes (depending on Affix week) Guardians wanna take Remove Corruption that is currently hidden behind Rejuvenation by 1 talentpoint. So depending on week this path is a waste of 1 or 2 talentpoints.

On the other hand, if you play Druid of the Claw Herobuild you wanna take Rake + Rip from left side but you won’t get these due to a lack of talentpoints available if you wanna skill some talents at the bottom of the tree.

Also you are forced to take Fluid Form at bottom right wing when playing Druid of the Claw Herobuild, but you need to waste a lot of points by skilling Lore of the Grove (what is more a talent you wanna take when playing with Elune’s Chosen Herobuild and not Druid of the Claw!!!).

Next Problem is the utility diamond in the mid of the tree. You are hiding Soothe behind the choice node of Mass Entanglement and Ursol’s Vortex. That is not enough, also Stampeding Roar is hidden behind 2 of these utility talents leading into you need to get rid of some survivability or some damage talents to get to this really important movement talent. On the other hand, you force a guardian to choose Wild Charge or Tiger Dash (what a stupid choice to get as a guardian. You usually want nothing from these but will always go with the charge here because you are forced to take one) to get to his bottom left main survivability talents.

After you go down to the last section of talents that are unlocked after spending 20 Points you only have 11 points left to spend. By having 3x 2point-nodes at the top of the last part of the tree, which are locking everything behind, and you are forced to take Fluid Form + everything at the left since it is very mandatory for guardian, you don’t have that many points left - not enough to get a valid build together.

I brought these things up to a drawing: Green is what you need to get for Druid of the Claw build. Yellow is what you sometimes need depending on weekly affix or other situational dependencies, but it is hidden behind non needing talents or nor available due to a lack of talentpoints. Red is what you don’t want to take but you need to, to get to mandatory or situational important talents. visit at imgur the following post: /a/M27OHhj (add this to the imgur landingpage)

I also brought up two variants to get rid of this problem that are also in the linked imgur post. In both variation the changes are:

  • Put Maim in the current place of Feline Swiftness
  • Put Feline Swiftness in the current place of Primal Fury
  • Put Primal Fury in the current place of Maim
  • Put Ursoc’s Spirit in the current place of choice-node of Wild Charge and Tiger Dash
  • Put Stampeding Roar in current place of Lycara’s Teachings
  • Put Lycara’s Teachings in current place of Forestwalk
  • Put Forestwalk in current place of Ursoc’s Spirit
  • Put choice-node for Wild Charge and Tiger Dash in current place of Stampeding Roar
  • Put Remove Corruption in current place of Improved Rejuvenation
  • Put Improved Rejuvenation in current place of Remove Corruption
  • Change Instincts of the Claw, Lycara’s Teachings and Lore of the Grove to 1 point-nodes AND increase the number of points distributed in tree above this area to 22 instead of 20 (to prevent placing to many talent points in the bottom area when decreasing the 2 point-nodes to 1 point-nodes)
  • A few connections at the talent board got updated (watch the draft please!!!)
    • You are now able to reach Nurturing Instinct and the path below from Verdant Heart now.
    • Also you would be able to reach Killer Instinct from Verdant Heart now.
    • The Utility diamond in the mid of the tree got redesigned to a pyramid so you are less restricted by choosing something there.
    • You can now reach Renewal from Astral Influence. (Not a mandatory change but it is helpful.)
    • You can now reach Ursoc’s Spirit from Skull Bash. (Not a mandatory change but it is helpful.)

Things that are changed only in first draft:

All connections from the top area of tree to middle area (that one that get unlocked after spending 8 talentpoints) are deleted. So, you can just begin spending talentpoints in middle area wherever you want to start spending points after spending 8 points in the top area, just like it is in original for the choice-node of Mass Entanglement and Ursol’s Vortex. This change is suggested since you feel like you are forced to take 2 restoration or 2 balance spells you will never use as a guardian or feral druid just to get to the mandatory tree elements like Nurturing Instinct, Natural Recovery and everything below. So you will no longer lose 2 talentpoints by this.

Problems that aren’t addressed with these drafts:

Fluid Form is still locked behind Lore of the Grove. But with the change of putting Lore of the Grove and the other top talents of the bottom talenttree area to a 1-point-node and other talenttree adjustments this isn’t a big problem anymore – only 1 point wasted other than 2 points wasted like in the current state.

Problems that are created by these drafts:

Thick Hide is now locked behind Killer Instinct what is a problem for balance and restro druids IF the connections between top and middle area remain and not get deleted like suggested in first draft. I made some thoughts about it and only see a solution in swapping Thick Hide’s position with Ironfur. But that means that guardians get Ironfur earliest at lvl 26. (Shouldn’t be a problem in a game that’s focus is the endgame, but it still is a considerable problem tho)

2 Likes

First the positives about your post:

You’re pointing out some key problems. The location of Fluid Form is the absolute worst. Any gameplay style that would really benefit from it uses cat form (M+ resto cat weaving, Claw Guardian, Claw Cat), so why it is not in the “cat part” of the tree makes no sense.
The fact that key cat abilities require you to give up so much for Guardian of the Claw is infuriating.

Now some negatives about your post;

I don’t get why you’re choosing Star- and Sunfire at all when you can get to the same point using Rejuvenation and Remove Corruption? Also why are you taking Astral Influence as Guardian? It does nothing any more, except increase moonfire range which you don’t really need.

Additionally, where you put Remove Corruption is terrible. That ability needs to be as early in the tree as possible. Yesterday I ran some dungeons as resto, and because the tank was Guardian and non of the DPS had a dispell either the afflicteds where barely able to be dealt with. (Especially with them spawning at the most inopportune time).

Now personal points on the class tree in general.

  • Why do we still have 7 non capstone dead ends? This is way more than any other class.
  • Why do we still have 9 core rotational abilities in our class tree? These are (excluding resto M+ and Druid of the Claw) completely useless when not playing the spec they are for. No other class has more than 1 per spec. And most of those don’t gatekeep actual good talents. Or are more useful for the other specs than for example Rejuvenation. These should honestly just be baseline.
  • Why do Instincts of the Claw and Lore of the Grove, which are useless for Balance and Feral/Guardian (minus Chosen of Elune Guardian) respectively 2 point talents that gatekeep really good abilities for those specs (especially Fluid Form and Well-Honed Instincts).
  • Why do we for 2 of the tree capstones need to start working towards those from the baseline rather than from the middle third? Well-Honed Instincts requires either Frenzied Regeneration and Iron Fur, or Rake, Rip/Thrash and 2 points of Killer instincts. Which most of the time you don’t want to pick. A similar thing happens with Nature’s Vigil. That these capstones require 1 specific talent 4 rows higher as well is also in comparable to any other class.
  • Skull Bash needs the Fluid Form/Stampeding Roar/etc. treatment. Meaning, that if we press it in caster or moonkin form, it should immediately cast and put us in cat (preferred) or bear form.

Really Fluid Form should hold a similar position in the druid class tree as Tip the Scales does in the evoker class tree. Granting full horizontal mobility across the tree, and freely accessible by any spec. It also works thematically, as it shows the druid’s ability to be of many forms, aligning well with reaching some of the stronger capabilities of those forms.

EDIT: Also removing moonkin form the class tree does remove a dead talent for Feral and Guardian, but it had some good utility for Resto, specifically with Convoke.

1 Like

Currently now it increased Thrash range from meele range to 8 yards.

I noticed that the Wrath spell now comes out of the right hand when in Moonkin Form and not out of the middle of the hands like in retail. This does look very crooked.

Feral feedback- mostly from arena /pvp PoV:

im bit worried about our defense capabilities. we got some heals via hero talents and a slight buff to barkskin in the general tree. but when it comes from paper to real arena, a real defense- aka some sort of immunity -beeing evasion, parry, turtle - you name it, is 10times stronger then any heal ability.

heals are more for restoring hp, not for keep your hp up. specialy when you add dampening.
let me explain: rogue vs feral - not moving just face to face at 50% damp with both sides a healer that just plays healbot. no kicks, no stun , or cc. just pure dmg and def cds from the rogue and feral. no external cds.
in this matchup (and many others) rogue has always the upper hand because he can just cloak (with talent) ,beeing immune to dmg for 4 (?) seconds, then into evasion another 8 (?) seconds “immunity” to 99% of feral dmg - keep in mind that cloak removes all bleeds , and you cant re-apply it. so the rogue takes 0 dmg, for 12 seconds VS feral survival instinkt 50% for 6second and barkskin (talented) 30% for 12seconds. the small shield can be ignored because its 1-2autohits and its gone.

feral eighter need some “immunity”, or some kind of armor buff like boomkin has. we are in front and “facetank” .you cant run when you are face to face allrdy. most meele have the same or even better mobility gained then feral.

you could buff the shield from oakskin to be more like the shield from a warlock.
that would surely help, but then needs to rebalance around boomkin,feral,guardian,restodruid.

other issues:

Wild Attunement; please by the love of god- REMOVE IT. noone likes it and it was a bandaid fix anyways. just give us the ability to cast clone in form (mop- shirvalla style). we dont want to stand in arena and cast more (cyclones) then an actual caster cast his dmg rotation. we are meele, not a caster.

Cyclone: can we get some love here as feral. as shown in many other threads and fansites feral has one of the highest deathrates because we cant clone when needed. you gave us insta clone via predators swiftness back in woltk and cata (with an 20sec cd) to give us some more survivalbility. its great that way. good teams can purge /spellsteal the proc, and good feral try to play around it. its a back- and forth who outplays who. bring it back and remove wild atttunement.

some more feedback will come, going to test other stuff. but this are the hot takes.

<3 meow

3 Likes

Switch Flight Style.

This spell is the worst thing ever to be added to WoW for druids.

  1. We have lost the ability to dismount from a “dynamic flying” mount and instantly cast flight form to carry on flying in “BC flying” mode. EDIT: i have heard a lot of people say “Why should you be able to, no other class can do this and it gives you an advantage”. Why shouldnt we? We are druids after all and the ability to instantly cast flight form has been with us right from the start.
  2. This spell makes stag and cheetah and all ground mount forms useless. Yes sometimes I enjoyed running around the dragon isles in cheetah form when “BC flying” wasn’t active, now i can’t even use it with this spell active as “travel form” is now flying all the time when this spell is active? Does Blizz presume that all druids will use ONLY flight travel form?
  3. On retail we have a spell called “Mount Form”. This enabled us to cast into a stag but it is no longer in the spell book when you create a beta test character. Has this been removed? (EDIT: It was in my spell book when i copied a character over but appears to be missing from pre-made characters. Even though this seems to be sill in game, it is only used for a 2 seater stag mount, this still does not enable us to use cheetah form or any of the ground travel forms that where introduced in Dragonflight)

Overall this spell has not been poorly designed for a complex class like druid and it needs a total rework.

To solve this:

Go back to pre Patch 7.0.3 before Travel form was merged with Flight form and make them seperate spells again. That way we can use flight form as for dynamic flight and if we want, cast a seperate spell for travel/cheetah/ground travel form

7 Likes

Moonkin form needs to be made baseline for all Druid specs. You’re removing the ability to Moonkin Convoke as any other Druid specialization, the ability to disengage using Wild Charge and making use of Flap in clutch moments to avoid fall damage.

Having fewer shapeshifts and pigeonholing players into their “correct” shapeshifts continues to take away from Druid class fantasy. After introducing barbershop options for Moonkin form, why after one major patch have the team decided that only a single specialization is able to utilize these customizations?

11 Likes

Hard agree on that - it made sense to remove it from the talent tree but please make it baseline.

3 Likes

me again :stuck_out_tongue:

disorienting roar: druid is a dot based class. moonfire,sunfire, rip, rake, trash, feral frenzy. it makes no sense . make it like dragonsbreath from firemage. it only breaks on direct dmg, not on dots. otherwise its a pseudo interrupt. it should be a cc for setup a cyclone.

Lycara’s Teachings: has some wierd stuff going on. it gives you stats based on form, okay, but when i start casting cyclone as cat/bear- and shift into human form that allready startet cast does not benefit from the haste but that you get when in caster form.

frenzy regeneration: beeing on GCD is not good. you have to shapeshift into bear–>gcd then frenzny-> and THEN you might get the heal, probibly you are allrdy dead by then. can we use it in all forms and this shapeshift you into bear please?

Feral buttons bloat. we have sooo much going on. so many buttons that do basicly the same- in different ways. let me explain. swipe, brutal slash, trash.
why do we need 3 different - 2 when you consider swipe = brutal slash when talentet- aoe cp builders? wouldnt it be better to have a choicenode that made swipe transform into brutal slash OR thrash? - so an more bursty aoe cp builder, or a bleed based. or non of course.

Unbridled swam: this talent need some love, NOONE takes it. its just to weak to be an last node talent.

ashamanes Guidance: the incarnation of avatar of ashamane talent feels too weak .

convoke of spirits; there is so many micro cc in the game and so many pets that you never will hit your target at full power. or even worse it gets instant interrupted / stopped with micro cc.

losing 3m range as feral: does not feel good, i can play around it when the bleeds (hopefully) are strong enough.

wildcharge/tigerdash: why not make tigerdash baseline for feral and give it a choicenode with displacer beast ?

Lack of range cc / difficilty to land cyclone when needed. since we have to cast cyclone its super hard or even impossible to land a cc when needed. for example to extend the cc chain on a healer (trap–>clone or sheep–>clone… you name it) because casting as MEELE is hard, specialy when your spec dont stack a tons of haste and cyclone has a short range of 20m. the fact that we stand in meele range not even counting.

hero talents /talents tree feedback will come later on, but generaly it looks good. as long as the dmg profile summs it up.

2 Likes

Tried some guardian, and this is my first little feedback.

Dream of Cenarius is very weak atm, hardly moves your healthbar when casting the buffed Regrowth. Losing Protector of the Pack did more than I thought it would.

Lunar Beam staying where you cast it is awkward. I cast it during a jump in a dungeon and the “puddle” that is left behind after casting stayed in the air. I think it would be much better if the puddle/beam followed the caster.

Lunar Beam being a fairly anonymous ability it would be a much nicer effect if it followed the caster and made the bear shine in the light of Elune, instead of just a puddle laying wherever you might have pressed the ability button ^^

Balance: Elune’s Chosen: Hero Talent Choice “Arcane Affinity”:

I don’t think the “All Arcane damage is increased by 3%” is meaningful at all. I think y’all can come up with something more creative.

2 Likes

Regarding the Druid class talent tree.

On the positive side I get more of the useful talents/abilities that I want/need.
While on the negative there is no feeling of choise in the matter.

Capstone talents feel weak, still!

Well-honed instincts is a decent talent, but not good/exiting enoguh to be a last row talent.

1 Like

Balance: Keeper of the Grove: Hero Talent Choice “Grove’s Inspiration”:

“Wrath and Starfire damage increased by 10%; Regrowth and Wild Growth healing increased by 6%” this isn’t a meaningful choice. That’s just a boring option.

Balance: Keeper of the Grove: Hero Talent Choice “Bounteous Bloom”:

This is just adding a 10 second window in which you fire 2 more Starsurges. I don’t enjoy the playstyle of casting Starsurges often, because it is dull to just press one button. The competitive node in that choice is enabling the fun-button Force of Nature more often, which is just way more fun.

I miss how at the start of season one it would crit for my entire HP, than over the course of DF it went all the way down to like 10-15%

In the HC dungeon i tried it hardly moved teammembers healthbars either.

Dream of Cenarius has either been nerfed into oblivion or they forgot to account for taking away Protector of the Pack ^^

1 Like

Instincts of the Claw

Is only good for cats/bears, but the talents after it are very good for all specs.

I’m willing to spend the points, but it would be nice if if 3 talents wasnt blocked by worthless talents ^^

1 Like

Only played with the talent calculator and flew around a bit. First observations:

  • Class tree is better but still too bloated and still forces you to pick up talents that are useless. This definitely needs another round of streamlining.
  • For Feral at least, I would like to see Rejuvenation switch places with Remove Corruption and Wild Growth with Nurturing Instincts. Rejuvenation is absolutely useless for Feral, healing about 75k on a char with 3.5m HP. If the talents are switched, I can at least pick up somewhat useful talents on my way to Renewal and Rising Light, Falling Night and Typhoon.
  • Please swap Skull Bash and Primal Fury. There is no scenario where you would not take the latter but in some raid encounters you might not need the interrupt.
  • Direct healing from Regrowth is now an embarrassment, the HoT part does not even qualify as a joke anymore. This needs serious tuning.
  • Please make Innervate regenerate mana again.
  • The loss of Moonkin form is horrible. Make it baseline even if it does not provide any bonus. This is not about player power, but I want to flap and dance as Moonkin! Why kill this fun?
  • The switch between dynamic and static Flightform is horrible. Just make it so that there are two buttons and we can switch back and forth between both seamlessly. Other classes should also be able to switch directly between static and dynamic mounts.

/E: This is written purely from Feral perspective.

Some more:

  • I messed around with Wildpower Surge and Fluid Form. This was surprisingly fun, at least at first try. Building stacks with Shred, big Mangle and directly back into cat with Shred. But given that Fluid Form is very unfortunately placed for Feral, I doubt this will see much play…
  • Oh god, why is Taste for Blood locked behind Infected Wounds ?
  • Ravage needs a much more prominent visual indicator. May be also a slight increase in proc chance?

More and more:

  • The “mini game” of keeping Dreadful Wound from Ravage up by spending energy is nice. Adds a bit of impact to the rotation without being too complex. I like it! But the extension from Aggravate Wounds could be a bit longer than 0.4sec. The original dot is 6 seconds so in that time you can use at most 6 energy spending abilities for an extra 2.4sec. Even if you are okay with overcapping combo points you could only add another 0.8sec in this window. I am not sure that without tons of haste it will be possible to extend to the full 6 seconds?

On Fluid Form: I still like the quick back and forth between cat and bear for the Wildpower Surge mangles. This is what Feral (Druid?) should feel like, fluid and dynamic!

But thinking about this a bit more, Fluid Form is really only a band-aid for a self-created problem: the issue is the GCD on shapeshifting and now we get a talent that partly walks back this decision? This is a bit silly, just fix the underlying problem already and remove the GCD on shifting. This would also avoid the issue of “button bloat” from now having to keybind Mangle in cat form and Shred in bear form. You can add a very short 0.5sec cooldown on shifting itself if you believe powershifting is really an issue.

On Tiger’s Fury. While I have to wait and see how it plays in raids or dungeons, I think I can come to like and enjoy the new, slower, more methodical play of Feral. However, I wonder if it might be more comfortable if Predator and Raging Fury reduced the cooldown instead of extended the duration. The main play seems now to make sure to buff relevant dots with TF. Having a shorter CD for a shorter duration TF would probably give more control. It would also make misplay a bit less punishing.

2 Likes

I honestly don’t care about 20% extra crit damage mangle compared to anything else you can spend that one point on. The feral part of the talent is good, but the guardian part is really bad, so there’s a bunch of situation I can find where I want Skull Bash but not Primal Fury. When cat weaving in dungeons as Resto I’d also prefer Skull Bash over Primal Fury. Even though I wish I could get Primal Fury for that as well.

2 Likes

Flightform has same actionbar as humanoid form.

Meaning you have to have the Skyriding abilities on your humanoid actionbar.

Would be nice if flightform could have its own actionbar, like cat/bear/moonkin.

1 Like