Feedback: Evokers

Hi !

I feel like Pyre doesn’t have much going for it outside of its interaction with everburning flame.
Pyre feels really unsatisfying to press and volatility low proc chance (and only on one target) isn’t really helping it.
So much so that you only press pyre on some specific occasion but most of the time you spend spamming disintegrate in dungeons.

Increase pyre damage and/or make volatility able to proc on multiple target per pyre cast.

Also pyre should be able to trigger Snapfire, it doesn’t make sense to me that the aoe spender doesn’t proc snapfire and weakens Pyre even more.

Our mastery is also really not satisfying, seeing your numbers decrease as the target slowly dies just isn’t fun. Sure it makes Dragonrage feels better on low hp targets but our 2min CD (that you need to talent another talent into to make it worth something) shouldn’t be a bandaid fix to our mastery.

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Hey there!

I don’t normally play ranged classes, they don’t tend to mesh well with me, but I’ve wanted to try Dracthyr and Evoker because dragons and that’s like, my absolute jam. So my feedback may not be worth as much as people who play ranged classes more regularly than me, but nonetheless these are my thoughts specifically on Devastation:

Dragonrage feels absolutely awful, and the talents tied to it only make it worse. So, it gets you guaranteed Essence Bursts, yeah? So pop it when you’re out of Essence, yeah?
But then it only lasts 14 seconds, so you either use the weaker Azure Strike to get EBs quick and only spend 6 seconds casting Disintegrate before getting more (Unless you have Cascading Power and the EB doesn’t get eaten), or you spend 3.6 seconds casting Living Flame and then Disintegrate for 6 seconds, and then oh look, I’ve spent 9.6 seconds of Dragonrage just casting.
It feels atrocious.

Then we throw Animosity and Tyranny into the mix and the identity of Dragonrage just becomes even more confusing.
Why do I want to spend time casting Empower spells while Dragonrage is up? And/or now it’s also a damage cooldown? That just makes having to use filler spells to get EBs feel even worse.

Why does Animosity add something completely external into how this cooldown works? Why isn’t it something like ‘consuming an Essence Burst during Dragonrage extends its duration by 2 seconds’ or something?
You know? Actually encouraging you to use the things Dragonrage is giving you???

Burnout also feels really meh for a penultimate talent; not only do the instant Living Flame procs get eaten if they show up while you’re already casting a Living Flame which is just the worst, but also…like, what’s the value here?
It’s just a filler spell that might give an EB or a Snapfire proc if you’ve taken that talent, but those don’t make an instant cast proc very appealing.
Maybe have Burnout procs give like…I dunno, 50% more damage or a guaranteed EB as well as the instant cast?

Pyre is also just…really, really unsatisfying, which makes it being the mandatory starting talent feel terrible. It is, as far as I can tell, useless dead weight in purely single target fights (which obviously aren’t super common, but they exist), and Volatility’s low proc chance doesn’t help it in AoE situations much either.
Perhaps a talent in the mirror spot to Eternity’s Span that made it do something like spread the DoT from Ruby Embers to other targets would help make it feel better in AoE?
Obviously that wouldn’t work if you took Engulfing Blaze instead of Ruby Embers, but, uhh…why would you? Spending even more time casting on a filler spell that now does a bit more damage is very mind-numbing.

Ruby and Azure Essence Burst feel like they could probably be consolidated into a single talent and put into the spot currently taken by Pyre, which could take the former Ruby Essence Burst slot and something new could take the spot of Azure Essence Burst.

Deep Breath is also so damn clunky and awkward that I actively try to avoid using it, especially in single target, unless I’m like absolutely dead on Essence, because Disintegrate with Scintillation and Eternity’s Span is better in ST and Cleave situations.
For a 2 minute long cooldown this feels pretty damn mundane, and sometimes it just…doesn’t work? I’d never want to take Onyx Legacy unless I was expecting to see tons of AoE situations because I just want to never use this cooldown if I can, and that’s really not good at all.

Power Nexus is also in a really bleh spot on the tree; I reckon you could probably swap it and Lay Waste around and that would be significantly better.

Imposing Presence and Inner Radiance are also in kinda weird spots; I feel like Essence Attunement would be a better lead-in to Dragonrage on the tree and that the former two could be placed elsewhere on the tree as optional bits of QoL.

All in all I really want to like this class and spec, especially because this as a ranged class interests me significantly more than any other, but as it stands it feels far too awkward, clumsy, and casting-heavy to enjoy.

You make a really good point there. For both Preservation and Devastation, empowered spells don’t feel right.

The Breaths (Flame/Dream) highly incentivise you to cast them at full state. Always. Casting any breath at stage 1 or 2 feels very bad because you could have released a much more potent spell instead. In the case of Dream Breath - as you have mentioned - there is even more of a reward in the cooldown reduction.

Essence Surge on the other hand feels wasted beyond the first stage, unless you’re fighting trash, in which case you’ll always go full power anyway. Spiritbloom with its long (ish) cooldown feels wasted whenever you’re using it for less than full power.

There has to be some sort of incentive to play more with the power levels. As it stands now, you might as well axe the “unnecessary” stages and have the abilities be hard cast or channels.

I like your idea that lower level Dream Breath should also have lower cooldown. This should also be applied to Flame Breath. However, numbers should be tuned in a way that - over time - a high powered Breath will always beat out multiple low powered Breaths. There has to be a reward for standing still for an extended period, but having to keep moving should not be as punishing - especially for a class with such limited range.

I also second the notion that Hover should include empowered spells. With 25m range, Evokers need to be able to move a lot more than other casters, who usually have some leeway wrt positioning. Adding empowered spells to Hover would greatly help remedy the short range.

Outside of numbers & gameplay, i’m concerned about evoker’s utility and viability in contents.

  • M+ :
    Being close to melee evoker will be often concerned by melee + range technics and affixes (like tornados, sismic, volcanic, boss / mobs cleaves, combat mechanics…).
    Evokers bring bloodlust, so we can put them in competition with shaman, mage and hunter. All these classes bring better utility than evoker, immune CD, offensive dispell, better CC, better interrupts, no range issue.
    There will be no issue if you spend your time playing with friends, but unless evoker brings a lot more dps than other ranges, i feel that it will be totally ignored in pug groups.
    Same issue for preservation who doesn’t bring any big cd for the tank or group, being far behind shaman in terms of cd / cc / utilities.
    Preservation would be prefered only in case it outdps other healers.

  • Raid :
    Devastation’s viability in raid will surely depend on numbers, as developpers will design encounters with evoker’s restrictions in mind.
    Preservation on the other hand, will have to compete with other healers to find a place, having zephyr as a raid damage reduction can help, but again i don’t think it will be enough to compete against paladin, priest, and shaman.
    Even monks now brings some interesting auras.
    Maybe Preservation can take a healing spot depending on tuning, but with range restriction i’m not sure that it won’t be better for your raid to bring a second shaman or another healer.

  • PVP :
    Otherall, you’ll often be 15-20m to your target ( for healing or dps), meaning you’ll be constantly in a “danger” zone to do what you have to do. You’ll have to be very close to enemy melee AND range, being exposed to a lot of CC / interrupts (lots of melee have 10/15/20m stun / incap / kick).
    Even if you’re not the focus of enemy team (and i suspect you’ll be focused a lot), you’ll have a hard time to do something.
    Maybe arena could be fine if you play preservation with a fellow caster who stays near a pillar, but i’m pretty sure most of RBG’s group won’t bring any evoker.

  • To make short :
    Range alone will surely close some doors for a player who wants to play evoker, but the class lack also utilities : No immune CD, no purge, bad kick, bad enrage dispell, no big single target damage reduction cd, bad survival, no dps buff (like PI, mark of the wild, mystic touch…), average CC…

The class will surely be fine to play casual content, but if there’s no improvements, we will surely see a lot of people frustrated in a few months because they aren’t able to join a pug group, or will be benched in raid content.

Spiritbloom currently is a bit wonky to use if you use click casting or mouseover macros and also use the hold and release type casting for empowered spells. Mouseover macros and click casting don’t register the release of the button so your only option is to cast the spell at full empowerment level at all times, or forgo using click casting for that one spell, which is a bit weird.

Currently if you’re a click caster the only way to use the spell fully is to only use the press and tap type empowerment option, which is alright, but I personally kind of like the hold and release quite a bit so it would be nice if there could be a solution for this.

Edit: I just noticed that click casting doesn’t allow for lower empowerment levels even with the press and tap system on. Works fine with a mouseover macro though so I guess I’ll use that for the time being.

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In the next beta build, we are making some updates to address concerns regarding Preservation Evoker’s healing range. We have been reading feedback and observing playtests, and agree that the 25 yard range is a little too prohibitive when combined with the frequent casting requirements of empower spells. To address this, we’re doing the following:

  • All of Preservation Evoker’s healing and utility spells will now be at 30 yards baseline.
  • The cooldowns for Dream Breath and Spiritbloom are being increased slightly, with Preservation’s overall healing efficacy being increased to compensate.
    • This should mean you have to stand still and cast empower spells less often, but when you do they will be more impactful, and your healing in-between those moments will also be more impactful.
  • Hover will now have a shorter lock-out time, so you can more quickly cast spells after using Hover.

We are interested in delivering on a mobile, mid-range healer. We want to make sure tools like Hover, Verdant Embrace, Echo, and Rescue are flexible and powerful enough to compensate for a lower range. Please continue testing and providing feedback, and let us know if these tools are working well alongside the changes above. We will continue to listen to feedback and make sure Evoker is a powerful and exciting new class to play!

3 Likes

Why not extend the extension to Devastation Evokers as well? Will making them 30yd range and making whole class consistent as far as base spell range goes is some sort of issue?

I could understand it’s even bigger issue for Preservation, but Devastation is also in the same boat and as Mythic Raider that considers maining Evoker - I dread the moment when tactics will require ranged to spread or stack at max range and having mechanic land on Evoker and spawning some defile/cloud/whatever right in the center between melee/boss and ranged clumps.

Quite frankly - I think this whole 25yd range is a gimmick you will scrap in 11.0 or some such, just like you did back in WoTLK when you made ranged consistent up from all over the place.

But at the very least if you already make the change for one spec - why not make it for another and make it consistent for a class as 30yd base range class?

Don’t make it another pull rip the cord, die on the hill moment.

3 Likes

While at it - here are my 2 cents on Beta testing Evokers, specifically Devastation.

As a whole the class feels and plays okay - spells do feel impactful and there is quite a bit of cool factor to the class.

The current major issues for me with the class (bugs aside) are as follows:

  1. The class is extremely fragile, the only effective defensive options it has are centered around healing damage that has already taken place or dodging.

The few damage reduction options are both conditional (only specific damage types) or simply not strong enough like Obsidian Scales, which is frankly pathetic given its 2.5m CD base.

I do not believe Hover and offhealing compensate for it and I expect it to be a struggle in Mythic raids, where you occasionally will get killed off in few seconds with unfortunate combos simply because you have little to no mitigation base.

  1. Empowers

The control scheme for empowers is ranging from terrible to just odd feeling.

  • a. I don’t understand why “hold” is the default method - it’s atrocious, people are not even aware they can switch to “tap” which is passable. As a whole, I had my share of playing games like Lost Ark that occasionally have some spells behave this way, but there you often deal with a bar of 6-8 spells total, unlike in WoW where you have 2 bars crammed full of various keybinds at the very least. It’s a whole another ballpark imo to introduce this controls confusion, when you already are expected to deal with 10+ keybinds for any sort of reasonable level play.

  • b. I would like an option or checkbox to immediately release the spell when it’s at maximum empower without that additional time gap there before it does it anyway. That gap is not necessary and is mostly an annoyance - the spell takes good 2.5-3.5s seconds to charge to full, it’s enough time to aim it as is, no need to artifically extend the pleasure of having your character locked charging.

  • c. Get rid of that GCD after you cast empower spell - we often spend good 3 seconds casting empower already, there is no need for delay after it goes off.

  • d. In a tap mode, make it so that casting another spell as subsequent action also acts as “tap” - as in makes Empower charge go off.

  1. Range

As a Mythic Raider I most certainly not thrilled about mechanics like Jailer Defile and chains, Dreadlords cloud or any other frequently used mechanic that requires ranged to bait mixing with Evokers.

Single class/player messing up whole strat just because of this handicap is practically a bench waiting to happen. So yes, if you already upped Pres to 30yd range, why not extend courtesy to Devastation too at least and maybe avoid this.

  1. Raid utility

It sort of goes with point 3 - Evoker does not provide any sort of mission critical buff or feature to the raid. The raid-wide mobility CDR is as optional as it gets, nowhere near to likes of Arcane Intellect or similar effects.

The rest of the utility is either group or personal level, those are nice tricks, but nothing essential there either.

Good bench candidate the moment (3) inevitably rears its ugly head.

2 Likes

Played around 8h and healing dungeons. So here is my first impression:

Good:

  • fun playstyle
  • high mobility
  • CDs feeling good overall
  • healing output feels nice, but I guess there will be some more tuning

Bad:

  • the range of the healing spells. it is okay as dps but not for healing!
    → I have to look out for my mates constantly. The high mobility is nice, but travel time + GCD is a too high waste of time. In that 2 seconds, my mate will be dying.

  • Healing spells feeling redundant.
    → I healed some dungeons only with echo + hot and blossom

Overall:
This class has a high potential. With a bit of tuning and improving the range (pls), it will be one of my favorite healers, after my druid.

Anything for disintegrate consuming 3 essences at the start of the cast ?

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I just feel that the Preservation spec at least will fall onto the ground between two chairs.
It tries to be mobile but only hover is a good mobility skill of it and hunter feels far more mobile, even shaman, sure evoker probably can heal better/more reliably during that movement but that will be quite situational and if anything just feel artificial with the reduced range to compensate for it. (Maybe thanks to the 10 yard difference shamans will need to move far less at all to even that advantage out)
Fly with me - Did not test this part but if it breaks the cast of the other person you fly to, even if the end location is where they stand people will just hate you if you use it.
Rescue - it brings you to the location where the target was when you casted not where they are when you arrive. So I bet in several cases it will be that you cast it to heal /move and you end up in an aoe. In an aoe where the other person just ran out.
On top of that you cannot cast empower spells during hover. Spells that can have long cast times if you fully charge them.

So it tries to be mobile but at the same time it blocks itself to be actually mobile.
On top of that:

  1. The range is less, the only way to bypass that is using stasis cause as long as you see the target and casted a spell while stasis was active on them you can be even 60 yards away if you use stasis the heal will go and reach them unless something blocks line of sight. Or casting echo on them before they get out of range.
  2. Single target doesn’t feel that strong
  3. I do not feel that it has too many emergency options if something unexpected happens. Stasis needs planning, dreamflight requires positioning. Zephyr is there maybe but other than that you have Rewind and that’s it.
  4. I do not feel that the preservation tree has that many options to choose from.
  5. Questionable design with spells.
    Temporal anomaly: Orb doesn’t slow down for you, only for others, despite you can shoot out 3 orb with stasis and no description mentions it, pretty sure it cannot affect the target properly since the absorption shield amount is maximized. I would say it is even hard to use it cause the orb can get stuck on many things not even behaving the same way casting it from the exact same spot. + if the group clumped up I think there is a chance that will affect the undesired target.
    Dream breath: Punishing to not cast it fully charged which takes time while we supposed to be mobile. Healing amount is understandable to be lower, but an increased cd as well… and its not even a small difference. 10 whole second between rank 1 and 3.

I will play it but all in all it feels like a handicapped shaman that has less buttons but works harder for the same or subpar result with some interesting mechanics like echo that could have quite the potential.

We could have had much more interesting things. Like more choice, separating green and bronze playstyle more. One being heavily proactive while the other reactive, could have been a class that zooms around and heals others without needing a single moment to stop if they don’t want to. Could have been better for class fantasy as well instead of this mixed thing both in fantasy and playstyle.

This! I like my Dracthyr form with no armor, but still want to have some transmog in my Visage form. Currently only shoulders, belt and weapon can be shown in Dracthyr form and choosing to hide them will make your Visage look weird.
Having them be separate would give us much more freedom with how we would like to look. Similar to how different specializations have their own transmog “lockout”.

Noticed this as well. Feels very limiting for those who uses click casting for most spells that it forces you to cast a fully empowered Spiritbloom.
Hoping it’ll be fixed in time for the Raid/M+ testing so we can get more accurate feeling on how Preservation will play out.

As a long time healer, I have really missed the possibility in dungeons and raid to show friendly nameplates in a non intrusive way. What I mean with that is really that I prefer it to be clearly distinguised from the enemy nameplates. The best way for that (imo) is the options that are available in outdoors content, specifically:
Class colored name, where the HP % is shown in the name text by coloring (instead of a HP bar).
The reason for this importance is to excel as a healer you need to see more than the raidframes. E.g Maybe one character is more important to dispel, shield or heal depending on their positioning. This makes the healer able to do more than react on damage (whack-a-mole), an existing example is ofc Leap of faith.

The reason this feature was disabled (in Legion i think it was) was due to weakaura/addon possibilities which was overpowered, almost being able to reproduce the functionality of AVR in wotlk. My suggestion is to allow theese customisation options with the normal wow UI settings, and thus not opening that can of worm…

So what does this have to do with Evoker you might ask?

  1. Evoker has several abilities (Rescue, Fly with me) that is dependant on more than “raid frames” to work in an effective way. The ability to therefor more easily see the party/raid makes the use of these abilities much more viable.
  2. Healers always risk of ending up in a situation where not all players are within reach, The evoker class design (somewhat) is based on this, with several mobility abilities avaible to counter the reduced range. Being able to better see the battlefield in order to move to an appropriate position is key in the success of the evoker.

This suggested change is therefor good for healers in general, and preservation evokers in particular

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Another solution that comes to mind is to have the name tags above players to be more customizable. Outside of instances on retail I currently have plater set up so that it shows friendly name plates but only shows their names. This has allowed me to basically create my own name tags above players which are very easily readable and color-coded, allowing me to read the names of players around me much easier.

Unfortunately because of the nameplate restrictions in instances I can’t rely on this there to figure out who is where, so a built-in way to adjust the font/size/color/outline of the name tags would be great. Class-colored names with outlines that make them readable against any background would go a long way to quickly spot who exactly that random player standing way out in Narnia is without targeting them.

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Speaking of nameplates, it would be nice to have a different toggle for friendly player nameplates and friendly NPC nameplates. I want to be able to see the players that I need to heal, not every random guard or whatever.

Yay! Still -10 yard for NO real advantage in other department except that Evoker Devs are set with this nonsensical “midrange” fantasy, that offer a HUGE downside without clear upsides.

Just straight up remove the GCD. You want us to be mobile and yet you put a GCD at what is supposed to make us mobile.

I have seen the Blue Post when you state that there is no plan for that because apparently

So can Developers please explain what are the costs of BM Hunters being able to jump left and right with a 40 yard range? Or what’s the downside of Shimmer? Given that those classes have 15 yards more worth of range than Evoker yet they are able to use their mobility while dpsing, meanwhile the supposedly “high mobility” class can’t?

Do Evoker devs realized that the main ST spender that they gave us is a CHANNEL?

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You are right, Disintegrate consuming 3 charges feels punishing, especially if you get interrupted or forced to move.

Instead, Disintegrate should consume charges while channeling, 1 at the beginning, 1 at 33%, 1 at 66%. Alternatively the spell should reimburse unused charges if it gets cancelled preemptively for whatever reason.

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I’m not sure, its kinda of the point of channeled spells. Affliction warlocks all too well know the cost of consuming an empower soul drain only to have to move half way through the cast, losing the 100% damage amp.

However, soul drain doesnt cost resources so outside of that specific damage amp, you can simply move and start channelling again.

I’m not sure blizzard will agree on the resource usage (deicison to use disintegrate should be calculated based on is it safe to do so. Also I dont know if the resource usage per tick is something they can physically accomplish / code (might be wrong, there may be examples I am unaware of).

If you calculate the actual damage, its a one damage point different per tick of the dot, when the dot hits for about 1800. Its practically just an extension of the dot, not a damage increase.

Okay i take a random average Intellect value i have now i took from logging my character. Which is 2127.

So III does 193% of my spell power: 4105
IV: 4105*1.33 so: 5459.65

3 to 4 is a 30% damage increase .