Feedback: Monk

Use this thread to combine the feedback on monk related topics…

Hello my name is Kholer, I am a veteran of the Peak of the serenity discord and also currently maintain the apl for the sims on raidbots for windwalker monks.

Following up I will post my Tldnr feedback on the windwalker tierset you can find in the original thread “class sets in guardians of the dream”. Don’t be scared to write your feedback regarding monks and as always keep it concise and be nice:)

2pc: 5% chance to get a spinning crane kick proc that in return buffs a blackout kick by 100% (currently bugged and not consuming). Results in roughly 1proc per minute.
4pc: Consuming the proc reduces the cooldown of rising sun kick, fists of fury, strike of the windlord and whirling dragon punch by 1 second

The general idea of the tierset is very interesting, however its execution is very flawed at the moment. Spinning crane kick in st does no damage and we are near gcd capped in st already. Use a different trigger for this bonus, perhaps rising sun kick.

The 4 piece idea is nice, though cooldown reduction on whirling dragon punch is a joke since with current tuning we never get to cast it.

As a sidenote, this tierset is probably the weakest tierset u have ever designed. Due to it almost never proccing, the cooldown reduction is set way too low. We are currently expecting a damage bonus of 1% in total for 2 and 4p. To increase its value u need to buff the cooldown reduction and make the 2piece proc way more valuable (and proc more often). This could be achieved in a variety of ways and I will be interested to see with what solutions you come up in the future.

As always: Monk is love. Monk is life

Kholer

6 Likes

For me it all starts with the words “has a chance”. There are 3 specs out of the 39 with this kind of trigger, ww, sub and prot warrior. Everyone else has to enjoy a deterministic way to interact with their tierset and windwalker is out there once again fishing for procs.

Lets talk about the proc itself, with current sck tuning its a bad global in st and aoe, also it being free devalues drinking horn cover, and spiritual focus, you dont extent clones duration or reduce its cooldown because you are not spending chi. Spinning crane kick would have to do actual dmg for this to be an exciting proc.

100% dmg to blackout kick sounds great on paper because we all know blackout kick cleaves now, and strikes multiple times now, but in reality the 100% dmg buff is only applied to the 1st instance of dmg (a single hit to primary target) My next blackout kick can strike 3 targets 4 times each, why am I getting 1/12th of the value i was expecting. This is the part where I have to mention that extra blackout kick hits from shadowboxing treads and teachings of the monastery is still not effected my mastery, a bug that ha been in the game since alpha.

I like the idea of cdr and it is something that can have a big positive effect on gameplay if dialed in correctly. At the moment we get something like 2-3 seconds off the big spenders a minute. RSK already has a random chance to reset, fist of fury already has a random chance to have massive cdr, I dont get why we need more. Strike of the Windlord reduced is nice, a button im looking forward to press every time,

Whirling dragon punch has no place in the current builds due to xuen’s battlegear. It needs to be buffed, and incorporated into xuen’s battlegear somehow as an aoe finisher. Might work well to press that in aoe instead of RSK but still get the benefits of xuen’s battlegear, because we are not dropping that talent any time soon, the value it provides is just way too strong (the talent that is)

3 Likes

Seems like a fitting set for the forgotten and most bandaid patched class in wow

Honestly your community should rage and cry more like mages. You are too kind to blizzard.

2 Likes

Cannot agree more… Please change it Blizz

Following the discussion about the CDR, the fact we have to press SCK roughly 3 times a minute (which does poor damage) for such a small CDR is not acceptable. The SCK part needs to be modified on the 2p.

Our niche resides in our skyreach window and having a way bigger CDR would enable to have consistently our big hitters in this window.

As suggested by Jarrod in his US post, increasing the CDR reduction by 3 seconds on the 4p would lower the SotW CD enough to get it consistently on our skyreach windows.

1 Like

Some changes landed last night, making the tier functional and revealing some possible design intent.

After about 30 mins testing on target dummy I yet to have the 2pc proc from actual abilities only from melee hits. We all know the story about monks not meleeing during fof and sck. Same thing happened last tier, it was bad back then it is still bad idea. Can’t understand out of all the things that could trigger our tier why does it have to be a random melee attack proc again. The rate of which it procs also seems very low for something that has a very small impact on actual gameplay, even with the doubled cdr (2 sec now wohoo)

4pc now gets triggered by dance of chi-ji, which is indeed a free sck, so makes sense. What does’t make sense is that none of this works during serenity.

None of this actually changes the fact that now we have to use a very low dmg aoe spender in ST to even get to the “good stuff” This is one of the key points of feedback highlighted in the tier set feedback forum.

Likely degenerate or unintended impacts on rotations, including:

  • Using single target abilities in AOE or vice versa

The tuning of sck has been in a bad spot for a long time, im not saying go back to the days where ignoring mastery was the play but as it stands it will feel bad to play with this tier because of the lack of dmg sck does.

1 Like

Monks, assemble! The talent “Attenuation” for “bonedust brew” does not work! Cooldown reduction stops working after 10 damage triggers for “bonedust brew”. I.e., in fact, it is impossible to reduce cooldown for our “bonedust brew” for more than 5 seconds! I dealt damage to a single target - 28 hits of “bonedust brew”, which means cooldown reduction = 28 * 0.5 = 14 seconds, but only 5 seconds worked. Dealt damage in AOE, 128 hits “bonedust brew”, which means 128*0.5 = 64 seconds with cooldown reduction, which also didn’t work (only 5 seconds worked)! This is a serious bug that makes talent very weak! throw in likes if you’ve checked it out and agree with me so Blizzard notices it.

1 Like

Also just another thing that came to my mind while trying out builds, the left side of the tree is full of dead talents, no choice whatsoever.

In order to get Crane vortex for sck dmg (seems like an obvious choice given the tier revolves around using sck) I have two options, rushing jade wind and forbidden technique. RJW in this current form is a universally hated talent, an ancient relic from the past that in no way fits into WW rotation or design. 6 second maintenance buff on a 6 second cooldown with no interaction with anything in the tree. Why is it still here?

That leaves us with Forbidden technique, if you pick that you are also picking Fatal Flying Guillotine you would be crazy not to in aoe. ToD got kind of saved two times because of the HP buffs, but we all know that without that it gets outscaled very fast. Some people love tod some people hate it. I personally dislike that fact that there are so many points in our talents trees buffing this one ability, and how big portion of our dmg is just that. You have to play around it too much, a lot of times it forces you to do degen things to get value out of it, like stopping your rotation to snipe targets that are not even priority.

Bone dust brew on its own is an alright ability, 1 min cd, good value in aoe and in m+, kind of whatever in ST. The problem is the two nodes that come after it. First of all just in order to get those two talents, you would be giving op talents that at least an order of magnitude better then them. That do I give up? Invokers, Xuen’s battlegear, skyreach, transfer the power are all way way way better then whatever value Attenuation provides. I cant even talk about dust in the wind because it provides no value. It has been almost a year this talent is in our tree, a placeholder from the rushed development of the monk spec tree.

We need changes down there, or else we one again will be forced into into the same old ToD cleave bone dust brew build we already played in S1 (in mythic+)

The cdr has in internal cooldown that limits how much you can get. But we dont need bonedust cdr. Its a 1 min CD lines up with xuen, lines up with sef clones. They need to stop putting cdr on things that dont need it. Give it actual power, something that makes me wanna pick up this talent that worth the investment.

I also agree that the set bonus is poorly designed. Fundamentally, being reliant on a random proc is not something I think many WW players are fond of, as one of the core characteristics of WW monk after the rework in Legion has been a low level of random variance. This has been less true since the introduction of Dance of Chi-ji, which has introduced a lot of randomness to how much damage a WW monk can deal in AoE situations, but this set bonus worsens it by making that variance present in single-target fights as well.

Wow already has a multitude of specs that have a high output variance, so preserving consistent specs is a good thing for the game.

Moreover, it’s sad to see a set bonus that works so similar to an existing talent (Dance of Chi-ji) - it doesn’t feel like a novel addition to the class.

The CD reduction aspect seems promising however, as with how much more busy WW monk has become tin Dragonflight compared to most previous patches (pooling energy and Chi used to be essential; now not overcapping on Chi is important), it would be fun to be able to use those resources on more powerful abilities rather than mostly more blackout kicks.

I hope WW monk receives some sorely needed attention this patch. At the moment it feels like we have lost both our old niche of being a very powerful AoE class while at the same time struggling in ST unless we receive multiple aura buffs every patch. As a long-time WW fan who has mained it for mythic raiding for 7 patches at this point, I’m not sure if I can justify staying on this spec if 10.2 follows 10.1 in that all we get are periodic aura buffs to cover up the issues of the spec.

1 Like

The WW set bonus just doesn’t seem like it is made by a person who plays WW. In Serenity, assuming it will work inside it, you don’t have much time to pre-plan to maximize the CDR with all 3 spells (Ignoring whirling dragon punch because it hits like a wet noodle). On top of the little amount of auto’s we do. While it is a nice change that Dance of Chi-Ji procs it, it still doesn’t help the fact that ST SCK’s don’t feel good and if its a non-Dance of Chi-Ji proc it does less damage than an unbuffed Blackout kick. Things start to feel a lot better with Storm, Earth and Fire, giving you chance to pre-plan, however SEF lacks behind in ST and wastes your first Skyreach window with chi generation.

This is on top of an already clunky spec at the moment. Faeline stomp being the biggest offender, in my opinion. What is effectively a maintenance buff, restricted by a strict positional requirement feels really awful if any fight requires any movement with chi-burst on CD and no reset already banked. You already removed Rune of Power because it was very restrictive with movement and I do not see a reason why this spell is still in the game. It’s worse than Rune because it has no grace area, the branches at the end of the Faeline do not help in most scenarios as the boss is about 3 yards in front of the start of the Faeline and the branches are 15-20 yards away IN FRONT of the boss where you will get parried and there is always the chance that a boss in the future might cleave. Faeline stomp also adds an extra global that does not really feed into anything like Rising Sun Kick and Fists of Fury do with Xuen’s Battle Gear. Strike of the Windlord gets away with this as it is a fun button to press, does decent damage, and acts as a form of funnel with Thunderfist.

Another contention point in the WW community is the amount of nodes tied into Touch of Death. Tying a bunch of damage to the end of a pack in mythic plus does not really solve the “How do we level out a monks damage pattern while still making it a 2 minute burst class” problem. You have just added a burst every 1:30 after a pack has basically already been killed. Sure 1 Touch is useful to kill a prio-mob before it does its next dangerous cast but the cleave does not add much to that satisfaction. This is compounded at higher key levels where it takes longer and longer to get to the point you can execute Touch of Death and cleave it, but also if you end up killing the prio-mob before your second touch, and the other mobs aren’t in range, it feels like a wasted talent point.

CDR talents in the tree are dead. they do not do enough CDR for it to be worth dropping a point else where. If Xuen’s bond made Xuen a 1:30 cd with correct play, it would be really nice. Similarly with Spiritual Focus if it made SEF a 1m CD, or Serenity if it worked with it.

Serenity is just a worse Weapons of Order. I cannot for the life of me workout why we got Faeline Stomp but not Weapons of Order. A very well liked covenant ability that does what serenity does but better and adds some form of mastery scaling as at the moment, there is no benefit going Master over Versatility until very high levels of Crit and Vers. It’s the same amount of damage increase per %, yet Vers buffs Trinket damage and comes with Damage Reduction. Weapons of Order and Bone-dust Brew were at least ran in Shadowlands, besides niche usage of Soul-Shape on Dausegne in Sepulcher.

Bone-dust Brew is another boring talent in my opinion. It does not really interact with anything other than SCK. The 2 Nodes after it, Attenuation and Dust in the Wind, are not worth taking. Attenuation at least has some reason to exist. Dust in the Wind is nothing more than a lazy “oh damn what do we put there” talent.

On the class tree side of things, is White Tiger Statue, also known as Catue. It has no interactivity, all it does is sit there and pulse damage, and it’s worse offence, it’s on the global cooldown. It feels awful ~2m into a pull, ready to press your cooldowns, and you have to wait an extra second. At least the other 2 statues have their uses, some form of interactivity with their respective specs.

The gutting of Windwalking aura was massive blunder, 2 points for a 4% move speed and then later giving a 10% move speed aura to Augmentation is a joke. Windwalker doesn’t take Windwalking because it provides next to no noticeable move speed and costs 2 points that are put into Close to Heart and Generous Pour, as well as other DPS increasing talents.

Finally haste scaling. Haste reduces cd’s by a small amount, increases energy regen, and how long/short the Fists of Fury channel is. The most popular change I have seen thrown around is to keep Fists of Fury channel time static and make haste increase the amount of ticks in the channel. This would, at the very least, help us scale with stats further into the expansion rather than the Mid .1 - .2 patch drop off you see very expansion. It is a wonder that this problem has not been addressed after all these years. % aura buffs do not help this in anyway.

I think many Windwalkers are hoping for a rework at some point this expansion, myself included. After reading the reasoning behind Retributions rework (it being the only dps spec for the class and you wanting it to feel Viable) I believe many expected Windwalker to be next as Windwalker historically is the second worse performing raid DPS behind Retribution (see Babylonius’ Tweets about this). It is time. Keep the core gameplay the same because it’s a really fun spec when its not full of added button bloat, Excess resources or having to press extra globals to keep maintenance buff, or use a low damage proc in ST.

7 Likes

Developers’ note: We are continuing to monitor the set bonus and the feedback around it. As the auto-attack trigger was not accomplishing the intended goal of providing Windfoot only during lulls and quiet points in the rotation, we’ve updated the bonus to trigger off all melee ability damage and normalized trigger frequency.

I’m generally cautiously optimistic when it comes to spells and effects that are in development, and I try to keep others from assuming the worst when we’re so early in PTR.

However, this developer’s note is honestly sapping that optimism, flimsy though it already was. Windwalker doesn’t have “lulls and quiet points in the rotation”, mr. dev. During every season in this expansion we’ve generated considerably more resources than before, making it very rare that you find yourself with nothing to cast. If you’re good at managing your resources, you might even not have any downtime at all.
That alone demonstrates a degree of disconnect between the current state of windwalker and the awareness of the people working on it, and undermines the entire goal implied by the developer’s note, but I’m not actually done yet:
If Windwalker was struggling with downtime, then how exactly would 2 seconds of cdr on a 5% proc chance on auto-attacks address that? How would a 1.5 procs-per-minute on melee ability damage address that? How would either of those effects occur more during downtime than during cooldowns?

As people are already commenting on the US forums, cooldown reduction with a randomly proccing trigger isn’t very good. We’re randomly going to be wasting it just because it procs during a bad time. If we’re in cooldowns, we have such a resource overflow that we’re definitely going to waste part of the value.

The developer’s notes also claims to be monitoring the feedback around the set bonus, and yet seems to have addressed barely any of it. Sure, a lot of people were complaining about the auto-attack trigger, but most of the experienced Windwalkers had an ounce of faith in your abilities and assumed that that would change for sure. We were right, but you’re heavily implying that the backlash from the first iteration of the 10.1 4-piece set bonus was completely forgotten about. Do you remember that you had an effect proccing off of auto-attacks in the Embers of Neltharion PTR? Do you remember that it felt terrible, you got a lot of feedback against it, and you completely binned the idea and came up with something else entirely? Why then did you try the same thing again? Why are you not addressing the clunkiness of being forced to cast very weak aoe abilities in single target situations? Why are you not addressing the fact that cdr on RSK and cdr on SotWL are completely different in value? Why are we still stuck with a random proc instead of a static trigger? What feedback are you monitoring??

We’ve gone out of our way to suggest changes to the tier set bonus that we think would address the issues we’re seeing. I beg of you, come and hang out in the monk class discord, so we may understand the thoughts behind this design and perhaps reach a consensus on alternatives. Hell, you can DM me if you’re worried about getting torn apart by desperate monk players.

5 Likes

The Over-reliance on adding procs to WW is something that I did not think about in my initial post, but reading the patch notes and the doubling down on RNG (at least what it appears you are doing) for the tier has made me think about some things.

Having one or a few abilities that proc make for some minor changes per fight that adds a small amount of variance and decision making to keep each fight slightly different and engaging. The problem comes as you end up adding more and more procs to a spec. BoK, DocJ, If ToTM resets RSK, FLS resets and now an extra SCK proc start to add up adding more and more and more plates to keep spinning while preplanning your energy usage and chi spenders, as well as lining up CD’s.

All this goes back to my original reply here, that WW is feeling more and more clunky as time goes on, removed from the base rotation that is very smooth to play.

Seiryoku makes very valid points above about the developers lack of awareness and/or selective hearing when it comes to feedback about Windwalker. Do what Seiryoku says, Join the Monk Discord, keep yourself incognito if you wish, but for the love of god contact someone who knows and plays the spec as it very much seems like WW has a dev who doesn’t actively play the spec, and hasn’t in a while.

Alright back for another update due to the new tierset changes.

Windfoot is now on a proc based system with 1.5 procs per minute, dance of chiji also produces a blackout reinforcement proc and the proc has been buffed.

To summarize these changes: THIS TIER LEADS TO EXTREMELY DEGENERATIVE AND UNINTENDED GAMEPLAY IN ST.

Here’s how: For serenity, windwalker has no downtime in its rotation currently. This means that we simply do not have the globals to use the free spinning crane kick procs. Instead, we will prefer to cancel them, every single time. If u stop that, we will just let the buff run out/overwrite itself because it’s better not to spend the proc than to press spinning crane kick. U want to cancel the buff because it still leads to the blackout reinforcement buff which is actually pretty good. This also largely applies to storm, earth and fire except for a small amount of situations where we may experience downtime.

During bloodlust, this problem for serenity becomes even more degenerate. Because we have so much cooldown reduction and so many important abilities to press during bloodlust, we will even cancel our dance of chiji procs because we simply cannot spend them.

This is clearly unintended and not supposed to happen, but is by far the best way to play with this tierset on single target right now. Please fix it.

2 Likes

Mistweaver:

Despite the Clouded Focus and Invigorating Mists (8+ targets) nerfs, the buffs to Soothing Mists and the 2/4-piece tier are pushing us heavily towards a Clouded Focus build come 10.2. Moreover, several encounters lend well to Clouded Focus because of its ability to heal priority NPCs quickly. This means the Ancient Teachings + Chi-Ji build (from Vault and previous tiers) will fall behind.

EDIT: Obligatory reminder that several Ancient Teachings/Chi-Ji abilities (+ Essence Font) are not contributing to the tier set.

In the interest of promoting build diversity by closing the gap between these builds, please consider buffing any of the following:

  • Ancient Teachings
  • Chi-Ji
  • Awakened Concordance + Awakened Faeline (for single target)
  • Essence Font

Although a lot of MWs enjoy Clouded Focus, it is a vastly different playstyle which requires you to plant and hardcast a lot more than you would with Ancient Teachings. Ancient Teachings-focused builds allow MWs to play similarly to Holy Paladins, as melee ‘DPS’ healers with a lot less casting. The dominance of Soothing Mist gameplay is pushing some players away from MWs when the ideal situation is to make both builds shine.

After reading the recent changes I can only come to the same conclusion as the other Windwalkers above me. No matter how you adjust the 2pc proc chance as long as low dmg global (spinning crane kick) is in there are a requirement to move the bonus forward. Community members on the class discord suggest that SCK dmg during 2pc would need to be around 300% or blackout kick 400% for this to actually become a dps gain in single target. The size of these buffs just reflects how far away we are from to make this work.

We are at the point where canceling the windfoot buff or letting it expire to gain blackout empowerment is the play, which is hopefully not intended and will be fixed.

please just remove the rng on the tier set and give an alternative to spinning crane kick

maybe offtopic but when was the last time windwalker got any kind of talent tree changes that switched talent positions or single talent reworks? it just feels like the spec got completely abandoned since dragonflight release

Hello Mistweavers!

We have a few updates planned for Guardians of the Dream and we’d like to share some of our thoughts here.

Defensiveness and Healing Elixir Updates

Mistweaver is squishier than we would like, particularly for a primarily melee-based healer, and its defensive toolkit is based mainly around active spell use. We don’t feel it’s appropriate to ask Mistweavers to actively manage nearly every part of their defensive kit to play at the highest level, so we want to explore passivity for Healing Elixir.

We also agree there is room for improvement with the current updated passive design and players can expect updates in upcoming PTR builds that are intended to provide value while the low health effect is not needed.

This passive update also gives us room to make modifications without straining key binding space to a certain personal defensive element of Mistweaver’s toolkit that is currently out of use – namely Expel Harm.

Expel Harm

Several changes to Expel Harm have been made to increase its viability for Mistweaver and fully integrate it into the kit. This isn’t an off-global option like Healing Elixir was, so it can instead be much more impactful while reducing the total APM required to play Mistweaver optimally in tense moments. This is a bit of a trade off, but we’re hoping the overall feel is like Healing Elixir but punchier. Additionally, the Soothing Mist functionality for Expel Harm will be removed to avoid having to tune around healing allies.

We also think this may help the class talent tree feel more satisfying to path through, as Expel Harm talents will be more of an enticing option. Hopefully these updates in totality will help Mistweaver defensively while making it more satisfying and approachable.

Guardians of the Dream Tier Set

We’re aware of several functionality issues including some healing spells not being counted towards its accumulation. All healing (aside from other accumulators such as Chi Harmony itself and Lesson of Anger) is intended to contribute to the final healing. We’re looking to address this in future PTR builds.

Thank you and we look forward to your continued feedback!

2 Likes

Any hope windwalker and brewmaster can share the joy also since expel harm is class wide spell? I will take it!

Thank you Kaivax, this is the kind of communication we love to see more of. Now I don’t mean to seem too opportunistic, but any chance you can go and poke the guys working on ww until they do a blue post as well? :innocent:

1 Like