Feedback: Monk

Hello.

Firstly, thank you for the open communication. It is a relief to myself & other MWs that the 4-set was indeed supposed to capture all healing. I am hoping that this change means that MWs will not need to worry about chasing Chi Harmony targets quite as much, although that will still be …yet another mini-game.

One thing I am concerned about is the fact that Vivify beyond x targets now has a SQRT scaling. Due to the nature of Dancing Mists, we have varying amounts of ReM out on the raid at any given time - infact, we frequently have a high ReM count during times of low, but consistent, raid damage. My concern is that it is very common to have such a scenario which also has 3-5 prio targets requiring intensive healing. Even though our Vivify may be completely overhealing an additional 5 targets (for a total of, say, 10 ReMs), the player’s Vivify healing is weakened on the targets who actually need triage healing. This leads to the player feeling punished when it isn’t even in their control. In 10.1, more ReMs were always a good thing, but this is no longer necessarily the case. Yes, this may be a “RWF” or “0.1%” issue, but I believe it is an inherently poor design. This is not to flame the MW developer, of course. If the SQRT nerf is implemented, I ask that perhaps it only kicks in when x targets are being actively healed - even if it’s still not a perfect system, it would still alleviate this issue a touch.

It has been hard to give feedback with the current tier as it has, obviously, been bugged. Even with Invigorating Mist etc going into Chi Harmony, I am concerned that the tier-set is going to feel quite clunky. MWs will still be incentivized to actively chase Chi Harmony targets created by Rapid Diffusion during Yu’lon, and we are still going to be incentivized to massively, if not grotesquely, overheal. MW feels a few steps behind, constantly, because we are having to purposefully put ReM on, let’s say, 2x debuff targets (so, 2 GCDs), into SoOM (even buffed, it doesn’t take the role of a Vivify in terms of spot-healing), meaning we’re already 3 GCDs “behind” other healers who only have to use 1 button (looking at you, Glimmer). Not only that, but we’ve also essentially “wasted” a portion of the initial target’s Chi Harmony. Due to the fact CH lasts roughly the same duration as the CD of ReM & RSK, there’s this weird, conflicting priority system. The playstyle just kind of suffers, for example, in a world where there optimal rotation is RSK → MT → ReM on self → SoOM (if abusing things like Escape from Reality/Guardian Spirit/Blessing of Spring, etc). In this situation, RSK feels like a nuisance.

The general community consesus that I have been privy to thus far has similarly shared this opinion with me: MW is starting to become over-the-top & micro-manage-y. We may drop Misty Peaks and choose to run Sheilun’s & Focused Thunder, instead. At the highest level, this is already quite a lot of micro-management required - yes, I know, Blizzard should not tune around RWF players. However, I am tempted to ask: who exactly ARE Blizzard tuning MW for, then? Current MW has one of the highest barriers for entry that I have seen in a long-time: it plays completely differently to any other healer, including Disc (which it is the closest to). In 10.2 we will also have Lifecycles/Mana Tea to manage, as well as FT TFT, Sheilun’s (specifically Shaohao’s cycling), Chi Harmony target chasing & Chi Harmony initial application. All of these things need to be done whilst one is mindful of their upcoming Yu’lon timers, as it is very easy to …kind of mess up any aspect of the spec? Desyncing TFT from YL, for example, is very easily done. Not cycling through the objectively worse Shaohao’s Lessons also is quite impactful. On-top of all that, MW players are constantly trying to mitigate RNG by actively choosing to Renewing Mist targets which already have ReM on them, when the player recognizes that there is another injured target - meaning that the ReM will, in theory, bounce (and thus optimize their chances of a Dancing Mist proc). I don’t know, it just… seems like a lot.

Misty Peaks being nerfed inadvertedly nerfed Dancing Mist, Rising Mist & Rapid Diffusion, and I would have liked to see some sort of power being put into the ramp as compensation - but not just numbers. Some kind of actual reliability is something I think MW desperately craves. Frankly, if I had it my way, I would just have doubled down & made it melee Disc - but that is why I am not a dev. I am biased, because the RWF craves stable healing, but I would genuinely rather do about half of our output but be able to consistently and reliably heal more targets. Looping back to what I discussed earlier, a pain-point of MW the fact we are intrinsically unreliable and RNG-dependent. A Paladin can keep a prio target Glimmered, a Disc can keep them Atoned, a Druid can HoT DoT targets, etcetera. Fundamentally, Mistweaver is two-steps behind, because I cannot even control if my ReMs decide to bounce off of a prio target due to them randomly receiving a critical heal from someone else (AND it could potentially take multiple globals to set them up if Rapid Diffusion is not playing favorably), and that is not satisfying gameplay.

I enjoy the current ramp-based playstyle, but I feel as though MW is in this weird, hybrid state. I don’t know, perhaps I am shouting into the void a bit here, because I think these are more fundamental issues plaguing MW, and thus cannot really be addressed in the span of a few weeks or months.

In terms of survivability, MW does feel squishy at times, so I am interested to see how they approach Expel Harm. I hope it will indeed be quite punchy if it will not be oGCD. I understand why people may dislike the Healing Elixir change, as people find MW taxing for other reasons, & it seems a bit odd to try to address the button-bloat via HE. I used HE a lot in Season 1 and found it incredibly useful in M+. Hah, even in split raids on ratty characters or during this tier’s progression on certain bosses. I will hold off until I see the passive changes to it, though.

Sorry for the long-winded post, haha.

5 Likes

Everybody is getting reworks fixes, adjusments. I see talents you guys coming up for other classes that could alone be very good base for a season tier set. I can see thru those ideas the curiosity and ambition coming from creators.

Our love to monk class is not any weaker than your love to demon hunters, paladins and rogues.

We ask you please take this oportunity to make at least half of the efford you put to rest of the classes. Give something new to the trees. Dont fill nodes just for the sake of it. Dont make us spent nodes points for smth we had as base before. Fix autoattacking druring channels for instance. There is so many ideas on eu and us forums. Take it.

The tier set for windwalker is really bad. I dont want to use it. Is is somehting I am not looking forward getting. Probably becasue you allready have it written and coded by some poor fellow. We allready have half of it in talents. It even makes the same sound. I doesnt introduce anything new to the rotation.
I can most liekly just not take blockout kick and SCK rellated talent and do the same without tier set and enjoy secondaries I choose.

Please for the love of Grand Master.

1 Like

monks face several issues this patch. We have notorious scaling issues, with this season being a bigger ilvl jump we are already going to fall behind slightly. A lot of DPS classes are now getting access to a legendary, buffed, reworked or have a significantly stronger tier set. Which presents a problem.

As someone who has been a monk main since January, and has struggle to find a spec that feels at home since combat rogue moved to outlaw, i’m disappointed in this tier.

We don’t need reworking, but i would like an option to go with a build not centered around ToD (feels sweaty) or Faeline (awkward). I was looking forward to the CDR on WDP, but right now its underwhelming. We will lose ST dps moving to this, and not really gain anything in AoE.

Please drastically changes it’s CDR, and buff the spells that are effected, or change the tier completely.

I’ve only talked about the tier set in this thread, but you’ve reminded me of the scaling issues. The bigger ilvl leap is probably not going to be a slight problem.

On the monk community discord, we’ve always tried to assuage concerns about scaling by pointing out that tuning can alleviate those growing gaps entirely, as long as it is done with some frequency. In fact, it gave us a much needed and quite possibly sufficient boost during season 2.

However, the frequency of tuning patches (at least the ones that windwalker has benefited from) has not been high enough to neutralize the scaling issues that we’re going to face in season 3. We’re going to fall behind hard in the months following the season 3 launch, and I truly hope that the tier set will have been salvaged to provide some buffer for us by then, but more than anything I pray that the devs will take actions to address this problem in the long term soon. It’s a complex problem, and although we’ve suggested many small changes to help with it, I don’t know if any or even all of those would result in a healthily scaling spec, but that first step needs to be taken.

3 Likes

How timely.

Mr MarcelianOnline Just posted a video on YT that would be a great starting point to introduce the sad monk reality. Already pointing out most ugliest. Thank you for taking the time. I invite everybody to watch it.

He also mentions most prominent personas in monk community that did their share guiding monks and spreading some good inspiration too. Mr Babaylonius and Mr Anomoly.

It is hard too find better waygate to the the specifics.

My thinking is that. No matter how good, fairy tale tier set you will come up with(or dont). The problems with monks are on foundation level and it will allways stink right thru it. It is counter productive and bad. It works against you.

This just looks like if you could get any attention. That would be the time. So I am takaing my chance.

2 Likes

With the PTR build that went live moments ago:

  • MONK
    • Mistweaver
      • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (4) Set Bonus: Fixed an issue that caused some healing spells to not properly contribute to Chi Harmony.
      • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (4) Set Bonus: Fixed an issue that caused some healing spells to double dip contribution to Chi Harmony.
      • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (4) Set Bonus: Now accumulates up to 15% of healing done (was 20%).
      • Healing Elixir now additionally heals if excess healing elixirs are generated.
      • Healing Elixir now restores 20% of maximum health (was 15%).
      • Healing Elixir now automatically triggers at 40% health (was 35%).
      • Expel Harm now costs 1.4% base mana (was 3%).
      • Expel Harm healing increased by 550%.
      • Expel Harm now deals damage equal to 25% of the amount healed (was 10%).
      • Expel Harm’s damage range increased to 20 yards (was 8 yards).
      • Strength of Spirit now increases the healing of Expel Harm by up to 30% (was 100%).
      • Profound Rebuttal now increases the critical healing of Expel Harm by 15% (was 50%).
      • Expel Harm can no longer be cast on allies during Soothing Mist.
      • Unison now duplicates 75% of Soothing Mist healing done (was 100%).
      • Enveloping Breath healing decreased by 20%.
      • Invigorating Mist’s healing visual is now only visible to the caster.
      • Rising Sun Kick damage increased by 20%. Does not apply in PvP combat.
      • Calming Presence now reduces damage taken by 6% (was 3%). Does not apply in PvP combat.
    • Windwalker
      • Developers’ note: We heard community feedback that the additional Spinning Crane Kicks granted by Windfoot were difficult to fit into the rotation and Blackout Reinforcement alone was not an impactful enough payoff. Windfoot has been removed and the set will now directly grant Blackout Reinforcement. Additionally, free Spinning Crane Kicks should now more reliably and consistently grant Blackout Reinforcement. As always, we will continue to monitor feedback around this bonus and appreciate the testing the community has put forth.
      • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (2) Set Bonus has been redesigned: Free Spinning Crane Kicks grant Blackout Reinforcement, increasing the damage of your next Blackout Kick by 150%. Melee abilities have a chance to grant Blackout Reinforcement.
      • Amirdrassil, the Dream’s Hope (4) Set Bonus has been redesigned: Blackout Reinforcement empowered Blackout Kicks reduce the cooldown of Fists of Fury, Rising Sun Kick, Strike of the Windlord, and Whirling Dragon Punch by 3 seconds.
      • Spinning Crane Kicks cast during Serenity now correctly grant Blackout Reinforcement.
      • Blackout Reinforcement is correctly removed at the start of Mythic+ dungeons and raid encounters.
      • Blackout Reinforcement can no longer be canceled. Usage of Cancelaura macros on Dance of Chi-Ji without casting a Spinning Crane Kick will no longer grant Blackout Reinforcement.

Appreciate the work. Hopefully bandaid will stop in the future and you care more about an rework of the WW class itself.

I am very glad that our feedback is being heard and considered, and this change is a huge step in the right direction for sure. Please do not interpret the following as any indication that I wasn’t very happy to see the blue post :slight_smile:

It’s… not really enough. Preliminary math from the “cancelling” gameplay before the change suggested a combined 2+4p value of about 8%, so we can expect this new iteration to be similar or slightly higher than that. We’ll be optimistic and call it 10%. Overall, that’s an okay value for a tier set, albeit on the lower end across the board. That’s all well and good, but windwalker is not a spec with fantastic baseline performance, so a low-end tier set is kind of… bad. We’d love to see some more tuning, but I maintain my concern from my last post that the numbers have to become kind of stupid in order to achieve a “good” value tier set. (That said, there’s a new consideration in regards to serenity windows, so maybe it’s better than we think. This needs to be carefully observed both by the community and especially by the devs.)

Alright, that’s the numerical part. The gameplay part is certainly improved considerably by not forcing us to cast wet noodle spinning crane kicks in single target, but a large problem remains: it’s highly rng-dependant. Granting (ever-increasing) amounts of cooldown reduction on a semi-random proc is problematic, since you can’t rely on the “new” cooldowns for any spells and it will frequently occur at inopportune times. For example, Rising Sun Kick will now have its cooldown nearly halved when the set procs and the buff is consumed. That means it will only grant its full value about half the time, and even then only if the player manages to save chi to cast the spell immediately when available. Frankly, I don’t have any great solutions to this problem other than just tying the blackout reinforcement buff to a specific spell, such as FoF (with adjusted values to compensate for the frequency), and getting rid of the rng element altogether. Even that solution isn’t perfect, because there’s still a risk of getting too much CDR (and yeah I know, impossible to please, sorry about that :P). As I touched upon earlier, if you have too much cooldown reduction, you’re just going to run into situations where you let rsk and fof sit off cd because you don’t have enough chi to cast them, creating exactly the kind of rotation droughts that the set was originally designed to counter. This is purely a problem of perception, since you do technically get more casts, but it will feel weird and possibly bad.

As a side note, I’m slightly worried that the current iteration has given up too much aoe value in order to fix its problems. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad you removed the free sck proc, but I would’ve liked to see some compensation for the loss in aoe. Ironically, perhaps the empowered blackout kicks could stack a damage buff for the next spinning crane kick. This can easily be saved for a dance of chi-ji proc in single target, and would provide a consistent aoe increase through regular sck usage.

I cannot stress enough how much I appreciate the attention that we’ve gotten this week, I really am overall positive about these changes, and I’m hopeful that it will be the first step towards a product we can all enjoy. That said, please do continue to iterate on the tier set, particularly the rng aspect and the cdr aspect.

(and thank you for poking the ww dev like I asked :slight_smile: )

3 Likes

Good changes, but not quite what i’d like to see.

The 2 Set still pushes us into pressing SCK in Single Target, probably even more now because it works during Serenity.
I personally think it’s quite awkward to press your AoE Spender in Single Target, atleast it’s a bit more controlled now compared to it’s previous iterations.

The 4 Set is also quite awkward, especially when the reasoning for the rework of the 2 Set was “…were difficult to fit into the rotation”
Adding more Cooldown Reduction isn’t going to help that and will just shift the problem to other abilities, though I do admit we are kinda flooded with resources this expansion.

In my opinion, the most exciting part of that cooldown reduction lies in Strike of the Windlord, the other abilities are kinda “whatever”, especially Whirling Noodle Dragon Punch.

Maybe scrapping the other abilities in that list and just focusing on Strike of the Windlord would make it more appealing?
Something like

4 Set: Blackout Reinforcement empowered Blackout Kicks reduce the cooldown of Strike of the Windlord by x seconds and increase the damage of your next Strike of the Windlord by x%

Thank you very much for the detailed Post and the changes, Kaivax. It really is appreciated.

Now that windwalker officially has a workable tierset iteration, I will post a detailed analysis:

TLDNR: The current tierset is now a solid foundation that definitely has a few unintended problems which need to be addressed. Big step up from the last version though.

THE GOOD:

Starting with the good changes for the windwalker tierset, there’s actually quite a bit:

  1. SCK during Serenity:
    Adding the Spinning Crane Kicks during Serenity is a large improvement to the set bonus which will most likely shake up our aoe rotation and boost the tiersets value in aoe alot. The impact on single target is also potentially very potent IF the numbers match.

  2. Blackout kick pumps:
    The 2set in general leads to a significant increase in damage for blackout kick, while also not being a very boring flat damage bonus (which would be the alternative).

  3. Significant cooldown reduction for strike of the windlord:
    The tierset significantly reduces the cooldown of strike of the windlord, especially in AoE situations.

THE BAD:

However, with the current design, a few unintended issues arise when playing with this tierset:

  1. Overwriting Blackout Reinforcement stacks:
    As the title says, right now there is a decent chance to waste Blackout Reinforcement procs due to it randomly proccing from an ability while you already have the buff active. This feels very bad since the buff is very good and is a significant loss for the tierset bonus.

  2. Ability Overload:
    Buffing the 4pc to 3 seconds was a necessary choice due to it having too little impact previously. However, the regular usage of this procs can quickly lead into situations where most of your abilities reset at the same time. This is a problem because we do not produce enough chi to use all of our spenders at once. I will give a quick example:

U use a dance of chiji proc into a blackout kick. This reduced all of your cooldowns so now fists of fury and rising sun kick are available. However, faeline harmony also needs to be refreshed at the same time and ur original blackout kick produces another Blackout Reinforcement Proc.

In the end, windwalker simply cannot use the burst cooldown reduction properly because we lack the burst chi generation to do so. This causes large amounts of the cooldown reduction to be potentially wasted.

  1. WDP Cooldown reduction:

Wdp getting its cooldown reduced by the 4pc is simply a waste of a part of the set bonus because whirling dragon punch simply does not do enough damage to be taken.

HOW TO FIX IT?

  1. Overwriting blackout reinforcement stacks can easily be fixed allowing the bonus to stack multiple times, while only consuming one stack at a time. Alternatively a change to a trigger ability that creates a buff window with a respective blackout kick damage buff could also be used.

  2. As described, windwalker cannot use burst cooldown reduction. However, consistent cooldown reduction works very well for us. This is why I propose for every blackout kick to provide additional cooldown reduction. This value of course then needs to be lowered from 3 seconds (probably to 1.5-2 seconds).

  3. Buff whirling dragon punch. By alot. (100-150% probably) Alternatively, make it reduce invoke xuen.

Thanks to everyone for sticking out to read this and remember.

Monk is love. Monk is life.

These changes… well it is something, but i feel like blizzard trying the wrong path. Slight curves on the road wont really set us to finishing line. We need a U turn. Im not dooming btw just we are focusing the wrong things.
I mean set already changed a lot and as mentioned earlier gonna need a lot more changes to be an ok tier set. In the end we may get completly different set from what released at start, and if blizzard feels like “man we gonna rework this set” i suggest them do it as early as possible so community can give feedbacks.

If we absolutely gonna play BR and CDR set then i can add few things.
First all of removing to need of pressing SCK button is good but now set is less powerfull in aoe. So i suggest when set procs we should “trigger” a SCK and get BR buff. Like “Dawn of Glory” talent. So doing just a bit aoe damage with proc. Why ? i mean im trying to keep the theme basicly.
Other one is wasting set tier proc. Keeping it just 1 stack is pretty bad. in the other hand getting too much CDR is also waste. So if can get multiple stacks and BoK consume all stacks at once we gonna get too much CDR. So extra stacks can give Chi instead of CDR. Like if you have
3 stacks = 3 secs CDR and 2 Chi
with 3 sec CDR u most likely get RSK off cd and now u have 2 chi to instantly use it. Numbers can change

I know what my suggest is very little impact on what we have with last ptr release. But this theme realy limits the balanced ideas. Like i have few ideas that could make this set totally broken… i mean u know this is not what we trying to accomplish here

Ww monk needs more significant cdr on serenity.

Basically it should be 1 min cd if you do thing properly, so you can go 1 serenity with xuen, 1 without.

Also, i don’t really understand why you didn’t just replace hardened soles with antorus tier set, but i guess this tier set is pretty similar.

I have a soft spot for WDP, I think its a very cool iconic ability that sadly gets no play in DF (PVE) It’s not even just the fact that is does very little dmg but also the window when the ability is usable is extremely short due to all the other talens and the 4pc constantly resetting and reducing the cd on RSK and FoF. Today during Gnarlroot testing I have spent a full hour trying to make it work, but unless I completely pause my rotation there is no way to line this up with adds in any meaningful way. Not worth pressing in single target, cant hold it for aoe, cant use it.

I would like the see the Whirling Dragon Punch buff (the buff we gain after putting RSK and FoF on CD) remain active even if any of those two abilities come off cd. This would allow us to actually use the ability at times where it has the highest impact. This simple change would make the ability actually usable.

Tuning wise it has been totally neglected during DF, it should slap in aoe and it does not do that right now. I would also like to see it shine in ST maybe let it do more dmg if only one target was hit. either way it should be a viable option even more so now that our new tier set works with it.

2 Likes

What I think would make most people happy even devs becasue it would not requre alot of work and since the theme of the tier sets are class talents in majority. It would feel more satisfying to make the WW set go around Whirling Dragon Punch. Witch dmg adjustement ofcourse because it is now in the same box as rushing jade wind, eye of the tiget, chi wave and burst and cap stones:P

Make it randomly reset cd for increased dmg to primary targets so player needs to work on making it usable keeping rotation engaging. Make it activate the 4 set after to increase bok dmg and make it a cd reductor since we press it when everything is on cd. And sudennly the rotation circle rollin. Whirling dragon punch never had a tier set around it. With numbers from previous expansions it was worth presing it even on ST.

Would it be possible for someone with US client to copy this to US forums please?

1 Like

Wdp is not liked by everyone. Feels like a gimmick to me getting locked in the air

Some consider it damaging ability that negates knockbacks and as eye beam requires you to plan ahdead just that bit. Not anything weirder than what monks experience.

Id like to see them move wdp to the position of rushing jade wind, to give us a way to avoid aoe tod when pathing down todards bonedust brew. Bring up the dmg so it does similar 10 ish percent overall in keys, or whatever number brings it close to aoe tod.

Could use some qol changes i mentioned above about its usability, could offer a built on dr or absorb while in the air to combat its drawbacks.

Thank you for the continued development of our tier set and feedback, its much appreciated.

The 4 piece feels awkward with WDP being in the mix. It can only be used when FoF and RSK are off CD, and we are also getting CDR on these, which makes it meaningless. It is also not going to be specced into currently unless we see the 70% damage increase that is seen in PvP. While i would personally love to see the addition of abilities i haven’t personally yet had the chance to play, such as WDP, it just doesn’t sit right with the tier bonus.

Something like CDR of Xuen so we can bring it down in line with our serenity would likely be more beneficial, as we are currently holding our serenity CD to line up with Xuen.

I think i echo others opinion where i do not really want to use SCK to a significant degree in ST fights.

I am optimistic to see what further changes will be made to this.

1 Like

Why is it so difficult to create a (numerically and gameplay related) good tierset for windwalker?

Answering this question will link different problems together which ultimately combine to contribute in this issue. The best example for this is the current 10.2 tierset: A tierset that has caused to have too many abilities to cast at once while also resulting in a relatively low dps increase (Best guesses put it at somewhere between 6-8% right now). So what’s causing most of tiersets to fall short?

  1. Power of rising sun kick of fists of fury
    These two spenders are significantly stronger than the other regular spenders (namely blackout kick and spinning crane kick), providing alot more base damage and interacting with most of our kit and talents. Since we already had two tiersets this expansion that focused on these two abilities, the goal for 10.2 is not to create a third tierset that buffs these abilities. However in return, this means that the bonuses need to be significantly more amplified in order to provide a comparable increase compared to buffs to rising sun kick or fists of fury.

To give an example: the current tierset 2pc is trying to only buff blackout kicks damage without buffing teaching of the monastery (to avoid a degenerate playstyle). A good tierset gives about a 7% increase to single target. For blackout kick this means that the damage of blackout kick needs to be doubled by the 2set.

  1. Faeline stomp and the lack of alternatives

In single target, every target is locked into faeline stomp right now, mostly because of faeline harmony. The two talent points leading up to faeline stomp, rising star, are exceptionally weak. So why are we still forced to take it?
Not picking up faeline stomp frees up four talent points. The problem is we have no alternatives where these talents could be spent otherwise for single target situations:
Either we pick some naturally weak tier 1/2 talents (hardened soles, Inner peace or Jade Ignition for example) or we are forced to pick bonedust brew (while spending two points on 20% spinning crane kick increase, essentially worthless), a primarily aoe talent. The final options are taking xuens bond (capped at 11s cdr, essentially worthless) and emperors capacitor (does less damage than your rotation, severely undertuned) and talenting into spiritual focus, a talent that basically provides no cooldown reduction for serenity.

As you can see, none of the options allow us to replace faeline stomp for something remotely competitive on single target. However faeline stomp also increases the difficulty for good tiersets due to it occupying lots of globals, leaving us with no free globals to spend procs on (hello windfoot) or use additional cooldown reduction well (hello 4pc).

Our undertuned talents in the spec tree are a major cause to the tierset dilemma.

3. Skyreach/Skytouch is oppressive:
This is not a design issue, but a numerical issue. As of now, keefers skyreach/skytouch is a very strong talent, providing us with a great niche of quick target swapping and focusing down single target adds. However its impact on single target is too significant:

Right now we do up to 20% of our damage solely in our skyreach windows over a 5min fight.

This means that the tierset needs to buff these windows in the first place or be overly powerful if it doesn’t. Buffing sustain damage for windwalker has a significantly reduced effect because of this. It also causes for serenity to always be treated as a 2min cooldown to ensure it aligns with skyreach. A 90 second serenity would work extremly well with the current iteration of the tierset; however it is simply not feasible because of skyreach.

  1. Serenity is significantly stronger than SEF:
    All the talk in single target has been about serenity at the moment. This is because without applying any tiersets, serenity is significantly ahead of SEF (around 3-4 overall damage%). This is a problem because to create a tierset that’s numerically strong, it needs to apply and contribute these windows since we spend around 16% of our time inside serenity. Serenity’s rotation is very stale, particularly during bloodlust. Having additional good abilities to press during serenity therefore must provide a great advantage in order to be worth it. This is a problem for the current 2pc right now, because its impact is very low on serenity significantly reducing the value of the tierset bonus in single target. Storm earth and fire on the other hand is a very flexible cooldown that barely affects our priority system. Its issue is simply being undertuned at the moment.

Which options apart from rising sun kick and fists of fury significantly increase our single target damage?

This doesn’t mean that creating a good tierset for windwalker is impossible. As of now, there’s 3 main sources that could be used to amplify in a tierset, especially in the current design:

1. Strike of the windlord:

Strike of the windlord is our hardest hitting ability and lowering its cooldown significantly can be very powerful. This is already seen with the current tierset iteration where in AoE our ptr tierset will result in us only using spinning crane kick and blackout kick alternating to quickly reset strike of the windlord during serenity. Our 4pc could be changed to only significantly reduce strike of the windlord (of course in a buffed value). This would remove the issue of us having too many abilities to press at the same time and provide a significant increase once the cooldown reduction is sufficient. First calculations show the casts of strike of the windlord would need to be roughly doubled for a strong and healthy tierset 4pc bonus.

2. Invoke Xuen:
Xuen in itself is an extremly weak cooldown, the damage of its claws is very low. However its value is tied to his talents, namely Invokers delight. A tierset that reduces the cooldown of xuen to the cooldown of serenity/sef therefore could have a great impact in st and aoe. This would be easily able to pull off with the current 4pc aswell.

3. Serenity/Sef:

Last but certainly not least, our other main cooldown could be amplified by our tierset. It being a 90 second cooldown has always been a bit of a stain for windwalker that’s generally a 1min or 2min class (hello bonedust brew, hello xuen). Reducing the cooldown of serenity/sef closer to 1min or even to 1min would therefore also be a great opportunity.

All these options here focus on reducing important cooldowns. This choice from me is by design because the current tierset focuses on reducing cooldowns and I wanted to provide examples that could be worth experimenting with on the current ptr.

Thank you for reading this extended post. I hope you enjoyed it :slight_smile:

Kholer out

1 Like

Centered around xuen tier set would be also nice

(2) during xuen main abilities reduce cooldown of xuen by X amount → alignment with serenity is now possible

(4) xuen enhances sotwl, wdp, RSK with lightning, which deals additional damage to enemies hit.