Feedback: Monk

Centered around xuen tier set would be also nice

(2) during xuen main abilities reduce cooldown of xuen by X amount → alignment with serenity is now possible

(4) xuen enhances sotwl, wdp, RSK with lightning, which deals additional damage to enemies hit.

First I want to thank you for the Mistweaver monk changes so far. It seems we are finally on the radar and it’s good to see we might actually become a decent A tier.

From M+ perspective, I think we miss some things to make us a bit more interesting. Every group (at higher levels) will make sure they a BL and CR. I think it would be really nice if monks would get a CR. Not only for MW but also for brewmaster and wind walker.

Another thing I would like to add is Faeline act like a hot/dot like shamans and druids, but maybe its fine as it is.

Thanks and keep it up!

I think CR is lame. How about some cheat deaths for the group? Preventing death is an alternative and serves the same purpose.

I also feel like they should copy some mechanics from BRM monk to heals. Like a staggering talent so the one shots are more smoothed out. Would make some situations less stressful. (I hate one shots, it’s always frustrating)

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Things that are class wise for monk that could be a inspiration for utility.

Transcendence - mass teleport. Single teleport like Evoker rescue?
Healing spheres - basicly healthstone but may be resource replenish.
Brews - they can basicly do everything but may be spec specific. (MW)Thunder focus tea = main damaging and healing spell douplicates? (BrM) mass stagger. (WW) doubles mystic touch for 10s? or gives attacks to splash thunder from the power of xuen?

Touch of death - single target breath of eaons or that paladins hammer which we had before and stolen but just implemented awkwardly.

Movement speed allready beed stolen as well.

The problem is not with where to draw the ideas from. The problem is lack of willingness. They created monks and then they abbandoned them. Thats not only sad, thats unproffesional. There is no comparison to what other classes get in terms attention.

Low representation is not the reason becasue survival hunter are played even less and get normal treatment. They are represented less because there are not being worked on not other way around. Watch how many havoks suddenly will pop out in season 3. They are allready getting geaqr ready increasing in numbers. Retribution palladins number doubled after talent rework.

It feels so good when you now that somoene is keeping and eye on your spec, class. Feels better that any set or telent rework because you know it will last more than one season.

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Good day my fellow MonkIsten :slight_smile:

Here are some Suggestions I would like to share with you.
As we all know, the state of us Monks is somewhat in around a melee to midrange healer that at least in raids relies heavily on Renewing Mist uptime.

Setting our Renewing Mists in combination with Thunder Focus Tea, Rotating Tiger Claw, Blackout Kick, Rising Sun Kick to maximize their uptime while being in melee range and playing mechanics, ramping up Yu’lon – Enveloping Mist based Renewing Mists while standing to then channel Soothing Mist to finally burst heal all Renewing Mist targets with Vivify (cause without channeling while again standing still Vivifys are not instant casts) and then be forced back in melee range to not loose Renewing Mist uptime as the combination of Renewing Mist and Soothed Vivifys (aside from the Procs every 10s, cds like Revival and Essence font – that is useless cause it has no Synergy like Renewing Mist with Vivifys) is our only real AOE Heal.

In general, I don’t dislike the synergistic play or the monk and in M+ its kind of fun.
For Raiding tho I would like to get a toolkit that would let us play a kind or ranged version – making it possible to in terms of healing (dps could be lower ofc) play with Crackling Jade Lightning instead of Rotating Tiger Claw, Blackout Kick, Rising Sun Kick.
Time channeled could give the equivalent of time spend rotating the three spells in terms of healing done or HoT extension.

This would give monks the opportunity to (like all the other healers that can eighter cast while moving HoTs, instant casts and so on or are able to play solely at range.

The overall toolkit of monks compared is not that great – I mean let’s be real… we still have no BATTLE REZZZZ?!?

Looking forward to some feedback and it this is not the right place for such a post please let me know that I can move/repost it.

Stay save everyone!

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Make serenity 1 min CD, it will be best change ever

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I’m sure that would have a very positive effect on build diversity.

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we need rework the spec is too scuffed now and with every tierset it gets even more stupid

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In my opinion it would be better to leave the current set-bonus that is designed for the Windwalker because of the rather big rng component.

I would rather see someting like this:
2pc : Abillities apply Peck of Chi-chi which makes the target take x% more from our abillities (stacks)
4pc : if target has 6 stacks consume them and increase agility by x% for x sec

It’s not original but would give us more focus on our abillities instead of external dmg sources

Kind regards,
Himetara

Developers’ note: We liked the positive effect that Fangs of the Vermillion Forge had on Windwalker single target damage, and are transferring some of that power from the class set into the base specialization as players adventure into Amirdrassil and replace their existing gear. The net effect of these changes is an overall increase in character power.Additionally, we heard player concerns that the effort required to play Whirling Dragon Punch wasn’t worth the resulting increase in power. We agree, and have increased the damage it deals as a result.We have also added additional damage to the Amirdrassil (4) set as the cooldown reduction, while fun, was not entirely meeting our goals for additional power granted by the bonus.

So, first off, great news on the baseline buffs. RSK and FoF are in a bit of a weird place balance-wise without the Aberrus tier (that’s why that tier got a flat RSK and FoF buff in the first place), so it’s a really good change to shift some of their value into the baseline. Thumbs up, no complaints.

Next, I really appreciate that there is awareness about our issues with WDP, but I’m afraid that the attempt at resolving those issues has really missed the mark. WDP is much further behind than the devs seem to realize, and not just in a numerical way. All the procs and chi cost reduction/refunds as well as the cooldown reduction (especially with the Amirdrassil 4pc bonus) are leading to a nearly, if not totally, global locked rotation. Just making WDP a bit stronger isn’t automatically going to open up room for it, and the additional uptime of RSK and FoF obviously means you get fewer windows where WDP is castable anyway.

I don’t have any quick fixes to suggest here, to be honest. Being global-locked is a complex problem for ww to have, and it won’t be solved without a rework of some degree. I can only explain why the current approach won’t work. I also cannot deny that it’s a little bit disheartening that someone thought that a simple 10% buff would change anything.

The flat damage buff to the 4set was an expected change, and probably the only realistic way to keep the design more or less intact without being very, very weak. I don’t think 4% is quite enough, but it makes the 4pc easily tunable, so that’s good.

Now, I’m not one to just assume that this was the last chance at functional changes, and I will continue to hope that the 2pc receives some impactful updates. I’m gonna take another stab at a proposed rework:

Spending 15 Chi grants Blackout Reinforcement, buffing the damage of your next Blackout Kick by 150%.
Damage of Spinning Crane Kick increased by 15%.

(including chi spenders cast during serenity)
This eliminates the randomness from the effect, while keeping the frequency of the buff similar (and tunable) to now. It also retains some variance, since you don’t always spend 20 chi in the same amount of time.
The flat sck buff adds an easily tunable element as well as some well-needed aoe value.

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First of all thank you for the work on monk. Really feels nice yo be in a circle.

Second regarding recent changes for WW I will quote friends from US forums because they basicly nailing what I think most of the time anyway.

Jårrod - " We really have no free globals. This log sacrificed a good chunk of Faeline Harmony uptime too, so Im just playing at a loss because we have too many high priority buttons. Numerous times I came across a situation where I have the new 4pc Buff, a Dance of Chi Ji Proc, RSK ready to Cast, and Strike of the Windlord ready to cast all at the same time, and did I forget to mention I need to refresh Faeline Harmony there to?

Like no player should come across a situation like that. Its just too many high priority buttons to press at one point, and its not like I played it wrong. Too many things come up to priority way too fast, and it can overwhelm players.

As for the tuning on WDP after the slight buff, its still just a bad talent like I said earlier. Just above 3% is just bad for a capstone talent. Essentially you have to drop Fury of Xuen for WDP, and from a previous 5 minute dummy session, Fury of Xuen did like 4.5 to 5% of my overall, plus I don’t have to deal with the clunky rotation that WDP causes. WDP needs a very big buff still.


Truthfully I think Faeline Stomp is the root of the vast majority of global issues. It just takes up way too many globals for a maintenance debuff. With this new tier set, there are actually some nice little gameplay loops inside Serenity that could exist if you ignored Faeline Stomp.

Essentially I can cancel FoF with SCK to get the tier bonus then go RSK BoK RSK outside of lust. Thats super smooth. Plus I can even fit in a nice WDP there. But if I have WDP and FLS problems arise. I can’t fit in both anywhere, so it becomes an awkward mess.

I really hope this ability gets removed or highly reworked because this 12% damage taken increase from Faeline Harmony makes FLS a force you can’t ignore and it completely warps gameplay in every single way. Aside from globals, it also limits your movement (ironic for WW, one of the most mobile specs, right?) way too much. Its just a maintenance debuff version of Rune of Power to a degree. You can adapt around it, but it is just way way way too centralizing of a talent gameplay wise."

Jårrod - “The constant need to refresh every 9 or 10 globals is pretty excessive for the spec. It just feels bad because the moment you don’t have the debuff up you know that you are actively just losing out on free damage. Increasing that debuff duration to like 15s would fix up the issue temporarily…”

Third I think the following is just amazing idea Pankration came up with:

Pankration - “Regarding WDP being borderline useless, if I may propose a change to how the skill behaves.
Change WDP so that every time RSK and FoF are both on CD the player gains a buff that lasts something like 30~45 seconds (buff duration pending testing) that allows them to cast WDP. If possible, make it so that the buff is stackable to three stacks, be it triple the damage in one cast or allows a cast of WDP per stack. Personally I’d prefer the former, it would make it hit harder which is needed, and feel more like a combo finisher.”

Big thanks to those two gentleman. Great work on US forums. EU sends high five.

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Hello everyone,

back at it again a week after the latest windwalker changes and I have to say they are quite positive:

  1. Moving power into the baseline abilities is a GREAT change - this was absolutely needed.
  2. Getting an addtional tuning knob for the 4pc is also GREAT

However, issues still remain:

  1. Wasting our blackout reinforcement procs is still very likely - managing them is NOT FUN.

  2. We still can’t use the cooldown reduction well.
    For both of those arguments, I refer to my previous posts as to why the current tierset iteration just doesn’t work and doesn’t bring the joy it should.

  3. Now the latest whirling dragon punch buff has sparked a bit of unhappyness in me because it is frankly a joke:

U mention the effort to play whirling dragon punch well is too high for the results. However, there are no good results from picking up whirling dragon punch in single target because we are essentially gcd capped.

Whirling dragon punch provides a whopping 0.6% dps increase over taking no talent at all. A 10% buff to 0.6% results in a 0.06% increase for the talent. The worst tier 3 talent we currently use is Fury of Xuen at 2.5% dps.

So please, please please, buff whirling dragon punch properly and take care of the obvious issues the tier produces in single target situations.

Best regards,

Kholer

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Hello together,

playing brewmaster monk.

One month ago, it seems as if brewmaster would become stronger in S3. It really looked as if it would be funny again. Since then it got worse and worse. Brewmaster Monk has the lowest health pool of all tank classes and now you reduce the defensive possibilities? Cooldowns getting longer? Selfheal is reduced? Playing brewmaster on PTR feels again like no1 will invite you for m+.

Why are always the same classes/speccs ‘S-Tier’? Is there so much hate against brewmaster, that you don´t give them enough love?

I would like to add to the pile of requests in the US monk feedback thread to please take a proper look at windwalker tuning. Preliminary sims are showing us to be in the bottom 3 of all dps specs, and by far the lowest of all classes with a single dps option. It seems like we’d need an aura buff of 10-15% just to reach the illustrious “middle of the pack” in single target that we’ve enjoyed in season 2, and our aoe isn’t really looking any better. Shadow priests even wrote an extensive article on their terrible expected performance and how they absolutely needed buffs to be viable, and they are simming somewhere around 10k more than us (or 5%).

On a related note, can we please acknowledge that ww aoe is really not exceptionally strong at the moment, and you really don’t need to be so careful to only buff ST abilities when tuning. This isn’t shadowlands anymore, there’s no risk of ww accidentally being completely overpowered in aoe situations.

Please don’t forget that we’re still one of the worst scaling specs in the game, and this season will be the biggest ilvl jump in a while. Please don’t make us progress mythic while we’re 20% or more behind “good” specs.

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I don’t care about quick fixes. I want an 10.2.5 announcement of rework.

Removing multi ToD and fls should be high priority. It wouldn’t affect the fun of the spec. Burst AOE was once the major selling point now look at ret and furry.

As for ST fls ist just annoying with the positioning.

They brought back faeline stomp and bonedust, which are honestly just kinda boring. Especially bonedust.

So a few hours ago, the tier set effect for Marksmanship Hunters has received (to my layman’s eyes) fairly significant functional changes, despite the patch launching in less two weeks. This effectively demonstrates that it’s never too late to ask for more than simple number tuning, which brings me to the following:

Please change the windwalker 2p to a less rng-reliant effect. I’m sure we’ve all read Babylonius’ wowhead article, and while we all have varying opinions about his perspective, it’s hard to argue with the fact that there are tons of random procs in the rotation now and the mystic heron set is only making it worse. I will repeat my suggestion that I made last time (please note the adjusted values from last time).

Spending 10 Chi grants Blackout Reinforcement, buffing the damage of your next Blackout Kick by 250%.
Damage of Spinning Crane Kick increased by 20%.

  • It’s no longer random, but the frequency is still tunable by adjusting the amount of spent chi required.
  • Despite being trackable and predictable, chi spending is not completely static and will still leave room for variance in the rotation, particularly when comparing ST and AoE rotations.
  • Greatly reduces the risk of “proc munching” by evenly spreading them out.
  • If desired, it can give SEF an edge over Serenity by not counting chi spenders during serenity.
  • Adds a tunable AoE component that won’t affect ST too much, whereas the current iteration scales very poorly with targets beyond 3.
  • Removes the confusing and out-of-place “free Spinning Crane Kick” interactions that were supposed to tie into the deleted Windfoot proc and don’t make any sense without that.
  • The adjusted values should result in approximately 2.5 to 3x the strength of the current iteration, which I think is justified due to how underwhelming it currently is. Sims are showing a gain of approx 1.5% from the current 2p and an additional 5.5% from the 4p. As such, even a buff of this magnitude would only result in a fairly mediocre 2p. The 4p should also indirectly gain some value from the increased frequency, but not actually too much given how self-limiting the effect already is.
    (It’s hard to say how much stronger the Marksmanship set has become due to the latest changes, but it’s quite likely that the windwalker tier set is now one of the weakest of any dps spec)
  • You can call the stacking buff something like “Ebon Chi” as a throwback to the initial design and a thematic link to the resulting Blackout Reinforcement. (I’d actually recommend you change “Blackout Reinforcement” to “Ebon Armament”, seeing how you like your anime references sometimes.)

I’d also like to reiterate that overall performance for windwalker in single target and aoe situations is looking extremely dire. The only spec who was looking worse was Marksmanship Hunter, and they’ve since received changes which are yet to be evaluated in numbers. Using current ptr sims, windwalker damage is around 10% below the average, and slightly more if only looking at the best dps spec of each class. (Note, I’ve excluded Subtlety Rogue from this average, since they claim to be oversimming and I don’t know by how much.)
Admittedly, there is little data on each spec’s expected aoe performance, so my predictions will be somewhat feelycrafty on that topic.
With that disclaimer, both the 2p and 4p currently scale very poorly with target count and windwalker hasn’t been performing too well in aoe damage for a while now (in both burst and sustain). Thus, I feel like it’s safe to say that there is no risk of sudden, unexpected windwalker dominance in heavy aoe raid bosses or mythic+.

That’s a really drawn out way of saying: please buff our spec aura by 10% or more. It seems like a lot and it is, but it will merely elevate us to “average”. I think I’ve given enough evidence to support that claim. On top of that, no matter what you decide to do with the tier set, at least buff it by a lot. 7% is currently in the bottom 2 of any other dps tier, and the very bottom of classes without alternate dps specs.

Another thing that I would like to take the time to point out: it feels really bad to be playing windwalker in Dragonflight. You’ve wasted so many opportunities to streamline the talent tree and produce a clear spec fantasy, and left us with several “placeholder talents”*, several insanely undertuned talents**, and several talents that no one likes to play due to jankiness***. Combine that with the appalling ilvl scaling and nowhere near enough tuning to balance it out, it’s no wonder that the community forums have been a non-stop avalanche of doom and gloom since halfway through season 2 and many players have committed to rerolling to a different class for season 3.
I truly hope you have something in the pipelines to address those issues, but please give us a sign, give us something to cling to. Please remember that we don’t have another better dps spec to swap to when things are looking bad. We may be underpopulated (not in the least due to everything described in this post), but I think it’s fair to say that we deserve a functional, clean spec design just as much as anyone else.

* Dust in the Wind, Way of the Fae, and arguably the 5 simple “increase damage of spell” talents
** Xuen’s Bond, Emperor’s Capacitor, Attenuation, Way of the Fae (again), Faeline Stomp baseline, Spiritual Focus for Serenity, Jade Ignition
*** Whirling Dragon Punch, Faeline Stomp + Faeline Harmony, Rushing Jade Wind, Fatal Flying Guillotine

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Cant help it to feel very sad about our spec tuning again baked into our tier set. Why do I need to unlock the new 4pc to gain access to something that should be part of a patch note not a tier set tooltip. It just yells “we know the 4pc is bad and its too late to fix it, here 4% dmg so you can feel rewarded”

I really hope that we can have someone take a deeper look at all those talents Seiryoku pointed out above, putting it as “placeholder talents” really hits the nail on the head.

Meanwhile hunter got a tier set rework lmao

Now that blizzcon is over, I once again come asking for significant tuning.

As of right now, the season is shaping up to be the worst season start that windwalker has had in years, if not ever. Previous bad season starts were somewhat alleviated by good aoe performance and the ever-present high quality gameplay loop, but our aoe damage is not looking great and the gameplay is held together with ducttape and half-hearted prayers.

Public perception has already gotten quite bad, both from within the ww community and from the rest of the playerbase, and being dead-last (by a large margin) in all situations is going to do even more serious long-term damage to it.

But above all, I just don’t understand what’s happening. Why do we have to push so hard to get our tier set in a barely-working state? Why is it still actively annoying to play around, and why is it still one of the weakest tier sets of all specs? Why has there been no significant windwalker development or dev commentary for nearly a month now (if we’re being charitable and calling the Oct 11 changes “significant”)?

Blizzard, listen: Windwalker isn’t just the lowest simming spec on ptr. We also have one of the weakest tier sets. We also rely heavily on random effects, taking away our control over when we want our damage. We also have no real niche to excel at. We also don’t have a legendary weapon coming in. We also scale worse with ilvl than most, if not all, other specs. We also have several talents that feel more like they’re latched onto the spec rather than integrated into it. We are also one of the weakest specs to be buffed by PI, WFT, and Aug Evoker. We also (and yes, I keep bringing this up) are a class with only one dps specialization.
This should already qualify windwalker as a catastrophic failure in class design, but the simplest band-aid fix you could give is to give us some proper tuning. In my last post, I asked for +10% on the spec aura. I was intentionally low-balling it, knowing that it would be ever slightly more likely that it would be granted the lower the request was. I share the opinion with my high-level player colleagues when I say that even a 20% aura buff would be insufficient in some areas. But do something, please.

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