Feedback: Monks

Greetings from Peak of Serenity.

Since im mostly a WW I wont talk much about the other specs tree. Since interactions arent testable since 90% of the talents dont work yet (or not fully) its hard to give proper feedback but here are some general things.

Layout

The general Layout from our tree is okay, the only thing that concerns me a bit is that we only have the chance to jump to the middle from the outside of the tree but have no possibilities to do it other way round.

Positioning

Some talents are a bit weirdly positioned. When we consider that the left branch is about aoe and the right about singletarget we can easily find a few talents that are weirdly placed like JI directly infront of SotWL on the more singletargetish branch or Faeline Stomp at the end of this branch. Putting EmpCap behind FLS also seems weird since those two talents dont interact with each other and even work against each other since EmpCap and FLS both fill a lot more globals which can easily end as a very weird thing for us where we end up as globalcapped spec suddenly. Inner Peace seems a bit lost in such an advanced position providing almost 0 throughput. RJW without further tuning will be a dead talent and since it has to compete with HMFT in an aoe scenario it will be a nobrainer to just avoid this talent.

Talentfeedback

  • Keefers: Keefers as one of the final talents seem to be a bit weird esp since its not really strong in singletarget and its a mess to play around that in most scenarios
  • FLS & WotF: FLS and WotF feel a bit weird as one of the capstone options esp due to missing interactions with out entire kit. All abilities based on chispenders/chi spent like DHC, SF or EmpCap have no interaction, our entire resourcesystem has no interaction and even our usual mobility is the opposite of FLS.
  • TtP & HS: those two talent seem a bit redundant imho
  • Serenity: Imho Serenity should have been entirely replaced by WoO since WoO is a much cleaver approach on the same effects that ser has but with much more interactions with our actual toolkit
  • RJW: RJW rn needs a complete overhaul to be a useful talent. Neither the numbers nor the feeling of it is nice and as i wrote it already in the Positioning part its easy to avoid it so its pretty likely that we will avoid it entirely
  • TotM: even tho i thought at first that it would be a mess to have it in the ww toolkit it was pretty nice in the limited testing i did. Since its one of the few talents that actually works i was able to test it and imho it feels nice and dynamical esp since it helps us burn the additional chi from other talents like OPS and GotD. I hope that it actually works together with SBT nicely so we will have an optional playstyle beside the “spam sck back to back during bdb”. And please give us a second charge for RSk through another talent or baseline so the CDR doesnt feel weird like it does rn.
  • Galeburst: Im not sure how the actual iteration of Galeburst will be but i think it is a way overrated thing so i wouldnt mind it to be gone in a later build and replaced by a proper talent.
  • Meridian Strike: Due to the 2 min cdr on ToD this talent feels a bit weird. The maximum of the cdr component will be around 10s for a normally 60s ToD which has the same issue as the cdr component of BMH and XB rn in Shadowlands. The dmg component of MS is a thing that is based on tuning but its a thing we can easily skip when the additional dmg doesnt outweigh other talents so it can easily end as a dead talent.
  • Xuens Bond: Same thing like it is rn in Shadowlands. The cdr is kinda useless and the dmg component is what will decide if its a pick or not.
  • Attenuation: Even tho BMH was the go to conduit as necrolord during Shadowlands it will highly depend on the tuning and the actual implemention of Attenuation if we pick it or not. RN the cdr is hardcapped for BMH at 2.5s per bdb cast/proc. If this stays for Attenuation you can be sure that it doesnt have any impact at all. The 20% of buffed dmg from BDB is pretty low when we compare it to the highest rank of BMH which we use rn which has an 80% buff for the bdb dmg. This can be tuned or (if you wanna make it easier to calculate it) changed to be additive instead of multiplicative.
  • SBT: imho SBT is one of the best talents we received in the tree. It opens the possibilities for many more builds for lower target count cleaves and even opens up the possibility to pick Serenity for dungeons (as long as it works like the torghast version, applying motc to all targets hit)

Solutions

  • Keefers - Put it much higher in the tree than it is rn or change the uptime of the debuff to 10s
  • FLS&WotF - include WotF into FLS baseline and change FLS to either be a spender for like 1 chi per cast or make it a builder that generates chi based on the targetcount for less energycosts (e.g. 30 energy, 1 chi per target hit up to 2 chi overall)
  • TtP & HS - make TtP to be applied to different casts than HS e.g. make it buff SotWL and place it behind SotWL
  • Serenity - Replace it fully with Woo to give us a proper 2 min burst cd that has an advantage on singletarget over sef
  • RJW - rework it to either scale with MotC and replace SCK when picked with having overlapping SCK work like Iron Fur or yeet it finally
  • TotM - give us another stack of RSK so the cdr doesnt feel wasted sometimes
  • Galeburst - yeet it for a new talent
  • Meridian Strike - get rid of the cdr part and make the dmg a small aoe blast
  • XB - get rid of the cdr and buff the dmg or buff the cdr to make Xuen a possible 1 min cd with enough uptime
  • Attenuation - increase the cdrcap to make it possible to have a 30s cd on bdb and make the dmg amp additive instead of multiplicative
  • SBT - please let it work nicely with totm, no additional change required

Here you can find the current sheet including bugs and the current state of the interactions between the talents.

3 Likes

I can’t target any other players or npcs with my healing spells - only zen pulse works - sorta. Is nobody else expieriencing this?

[edit] ok, i found the issue: It was the activated “auto self cast”

In today’s Alpha update:

  • Class Talents
    • New Talent: Summon White Tiger Statue – Summons a White Tiger Statue at the target location for 30 seconds, pulsing damage to all enemies every 2 seconds for 30 seconds.
      • Developer note: This medium-duration area of effect cooldown is designed to bring the pain to enemies who dare doubt the wrath of the White Tiger.
    • Roll Rank 2 now correctly communicates that it grants an extra charge.
    • Windwalking tooltip now correctly displays speed increase instead of size change.
    • Generous Pour, Close to Heart, and Save Them All talents are now implemented.
  • Mistweaver
    • Unison – Soothing Mist heals a second injured ally within 15 yards for 100% of the amount healed (was 50%).
    • Awakened Faeline, Misty Peaks, Rapid Diffusion, Invoke Yu’lon’s Enveloping Mist mana reduction, and Ancient Concordance are now implemented.
    • Zen Reverberation triggers a second Zen Pulse at 50% effectiveness (was 30%).
    • Accumulating Mist increases Zen Pulse’s damage and healing by 15% per stack (was 10%).
    • Invoker’s Delight now scales its duration down to 8 seconds when talented into Gift of the Celestials.
    • Jade Bond’s Gust of Mist buff increased to 25% (was 12%).
    • Known Issue: Ancient Concordance’s tooltip displays the incorrect target count for Blackout Kick’s cleave. The intended functionality of this is to hit 2 targets with 1 point and 3 targets with 2 points.
2 Likes

This looks really nice, one thing id like to give feedback on is:
if you go for a fistweaving build, mastery does not do much for you as a stat, it would be nice if part of the healing from Blackout Kick /Rising Sun kick was scaling with Mastery stat, so we could use a mastery build while fistweaving instead of getting a whole new set of gear to try that playstyle out :slight_smile:

or, i know its too much to ask, but a talent to get the old mastery back? ;3
(this would make me scram of joy)

1 Like

This looks really nice, one thing id like to give feedback on is:
if you go for a fistweaving build, mastery does not do much for you as a stat, it would be nice if part of the healing from Blackout Kick /Rising Sun kick was scaling with Mastery stat, so we could use a mastery build while fistweaving instead of getting a whole new set of gear to try that playstyle out :slight_smile:

or, i know its too much to ask, but a talent to get the old mastery back? ;3
(this would make me scram of joy)
i posted as my classic toon, idk how to delete that haha ups xD

Hello weavers of mist.

We’d like to address few topics that have come up regarding the new Mistweaver Talent tree.

Tree Layout

In the Mistweaver tree, our intent is for players to make compelling decisions between powerful abilities, particularly with their final points, in order to decide on their build. We want players to feel engaged with pathing throughout this tree and have reasons to explore a variety of options regardless of their build type.

This may result in some ability placement feeling counterintuitive. The question “this spell has great synergy with this other spell, so why are they not placed next to each other?” can be answered: We want to maintain pathing tension, so that players feel engaged throughout the talent selection, as well as avoid certain talent combinations for balance purposes.

Rotational Clutter

Several pieces of the Monk and Mistweaver tree are adding options for active buttons on a short cooldown. Too many relatively low impact abilities on a short cooldown can lead to gameplay feeling rushed and overwhelming.

Zen Pulse has been the main offender in our eyes. In future builds, we’re looking at increasing the cooldown and effect of Zen Pulse to make it feel more impactful while reducing rotational clutter.

We will be keeping an eye on this problem moving forward with spells such as Refreshing Jade Wind and Faeline Stomp.

Mistweaving and Fistweaving

Our intent is for both builds to feel as though they have options and reasons to explore throughout the tree. The trick will be to find pathing that satisfies both builds without removing options or build diversity.

We were overall pleased with the first iteration of this tree but are still looking to make improvements. Players can expect a few nodes that may have felt like blockers to swap positions and additional connections to facilitate this in future builds.

Renewing Mist Synergies

Our intent is for spreading Renewing Mist to feel rewarding and powerful. We’re happy so far with how Misty Peaks, Rapid Diffusion, and the return of Dancing Mist have been received and we’re glad to see many players feeling much the same way. Our goal is to tune around these effects remaining engaging and synergistic.

Essence Font

The placement of some abilities, namely Essence Font, at the top of the tree has come off as alarming for some players. Since Essence Font is not an ability that sees universal use, why is it required to move past the first gate?

The intent for this placement is to sacrifice a small amount of choice early in the tree to maximize choice later in the tree. There are many different modifiers later in the tree that rely on Essence Font to function, and the layout of the tree overall would be heavily impacted if these needed to be packed into a small subsection.

A good example of the opposite of this placement is Life Cocoon-related talents in this tree. While players can expect the Life Cocoon talents to feel more optional with increased pathing being added in future builds, the overall placement of these nodes is reliant on stemming from Life Cocoon, due to it not being required to progress past the first gate.

Thank you all for your continued feedback!

2 Likes

Today’s update includes:

  • General
    • Heavy Air – Moved to NYI, redesign coming soon.
    • Resonant Fists has been redesigned – Now simpler to activate and deals area of effect damage to nearby enemies.
    • Bounce Back – Now correctly triggers only on hits of 20% or more.
  • Mistweaver
    • Rearranged various talents and created new pathways and choices.
    • Zen Pulse – Cooldown increased to 30 seconds (was 15 seconds). Damage increased by 80% and healing increased by 50%.
    • Yu’lon’s Whisper – Healing reduced by 25%.
    • Spirit of the Crane – Adjusted mana refund to 0.45% (was 0.65%).
    • Misty Peaks – Enveloping Mists procs now last 2 seconds (was 3 seconds).
    • Enveloping Mist – Healing reduced by 20%.
    • Ancient Teachings of the Monastery – Healing reduced to 125% of damage done (was 200%).
    • Ancient Teachings of the Monastery healing increased by 60% in PvP combat.
      • Developers’ note: Mistweaver Monk’s damage capabilities have gone up by a significant amount due to the Dragonflight talent system. This adjustment to Ancient Teachings reflects that increased damage potential and is not intended as a large nerf compared to Mistweaver’s current Shadowlands experience with Ancient Teachings. It is likely that further adjustments are needed (for example, some damage going down and Ancient Teaching’s healing going back up), but this should get us in the ballpark for now.
    • Clouded Focus – Now increases the healing and reduces the mana cost of Enveloping Mist and Vivify by 15% (was 20%).
  • Windwalker
    • Multiple talents have been moved to allow better flow and decision-making throughout the tree.
    • Gale Burst has been removed.
    • Rushing Jade Wind – Damage increased by 33%.
    • Meridian Strikes – Cooldown reduction increased slightly.
    • Hit Scheme – Replaced with Hit Combo as intended.
    • Spiritual Focus – Now works with Serenity.
    • New Talent: Hardened Soles – Increases critical strike chance and critical strike damage of Blackout Kick.

Changes are good and I appreciate the work you’ve done so far. I like that you are looking into the fae tree part. I don’t like fae at all but if you are going to make the positional requirement less cumbersome I’m fine with it.

What was really annoying for me is the return of hit combo. It’s so boring and the reward is not that high if you are going to take it. If it’s going to stay I will most likely skip it entirely.

The new position of fsk is better and I can see the reasoning behind it. Most of the time I use this ability for movement situations and I can see this ability used by any monk spec. So the question remains. Is there a valid point to not put this talent to the class tree?

Last point. The tiger statue with a 2 min cool down is kinda weird all other statues have lower CDs. Wouldn’t it be better to just place them in preparation of an pull and let it pulse on rsk or blk we apply to the adds?

1 Like

Been spamming the dungeons on the beta as Mistweaver to get a feel for how it will play. Now obviously it’s difficult to really gauge how it will work out since it’s just leveling dungeons and everything is scaled, but overall I am loving how it feels.

To my surprise I am mostly enjoying the Faeline playstyle. Allowing Blackout Kick and Tiger Palm to hit more than one target makes the damage rotation a lot more dynamic and fun (spamming that spinny kick button gets tiring) and I am extremely happy it’s been integrated into the spec.

My biggest gripe with this playstyle is in the Faeline ability itself, and with the talent placement. Firstly, in order to gain access to the ability you have to talent into either

Both of which are largely useless for the playstyle they are gatekeeping. Faeline is clearly aimed at 5-man content, and neither of these two talents serve any real purpose in there. Yu’lon’s Whisper will mostly just be wasted overhealing, and Calming Coalescence is just completely dead.

So that’s a wasted point right there. Then we’re onto the problem with the ability itself: Faeline Stomp is simply not good enough on its own. If not for the ensuing talents propping it up there would be no reason to take it, and so it feels bad to spend the 1 point in Faeline Stomp because you’re never using it for the actual ability, only for the buff it gives to your other abilities.

The CDR that is baked into the ability feels very strange from a design perspective as well. The way it works leads one to believe that you should fish for resets and recast it as often as possible, but there are a dozen different reasons not to (saving for repositioning, dmg not worth it, no real synergy with the rest of your abilities) which means the resets more often than not just get completely wasted. This feels extra bad when the 3rd Faeline node actually increases the chance for the ability to reset, further cementing that the reset is a core part of how the ability is to be played.

Personally I think this should be changed. Either reduce the cooldown of Faeline to something like 12 seconds and remove the CDR completely, or keep the CD and CDR as is, but tie the BOK/TP cleave to a buff that gets applied to you when you cast faeline (similar to ancient teachings) rather than forcing us to stand inside of it for the duration. This way you keep the reward of staying inside your faeline with consistent CDR → more damage (ideally, if tuned correctly) but still allows you to keep punching away in the event you have to move and got unlucky RNG on the reset.

Overall I think the Faeline side of the tree offers an extremely fun damage oriented M+ spec, but I do hope it gets looked at a bit more.


Some additional thoughts/bugs:

  • Zen Pulse

    • Initially I was glad to see this back. I always thought it was a fun ability. But after some testing I think it just feels awkward to play with. There is almost always something better to cast.
    • Whenever I did end up using it (which wasn’t very frequently) I just tossed it on the tank for some minor damage, completely ignoring its healing component.
    • Perhaps a modern take on the Zen Sphere version of the spell would play better?
    • It’s been said before but it bears repeating: the choice node underneath Zen Pulse is terrible. Both of the options are bad and they do nothing to improve on this already mediocre ability.
  • Rapid Diffusion

    • This currently overwrites already existing Renewing Mists, regardless of duration.
    • Unsure how it’s intended to work. Letting it add the duration onto already existing mists seems like the obvious answer, but that would result in all kinds of problems with Rising Mist (which currently does not extend ReM triggered by Rapid Diffusion, understandably)
  • Bonedust Brew , Resplendent Mist, Attenuation

    • This portion of the tree is confusing to me. Why Does Bonedust Brew lead into Replendent Mist, which then leads into the choice node? From what I have seen, this is the only spec tree in the game that has the “upgrade” choice node of a covenant ability completely separated by an unrelated node.
    • Resplendent Mist has been extremely valuable this expansion in PvP for Mistweaver, and may continue to be so if mastery remains your go-to stat. Having to spec into Bonedust Brew for this feels awful; and vice versa, having to commit 2 points into Resplendent Mist if you want the Bonedust playstyle feels equally bad.
    • I should mention that I despise Bonedust Brew and I know many in the Monk community feel the same way, but if you intend to keep it around for the ones who do enjoy it, at least separate it from any other node.

In general I am quite pleased with the tree, but there is still room for improvement.

Thanks for reading

Oh I forgot, but please for the love of god rethink Summon White Tiger Statue. To have so much throughput tied up in a 30 second stationary 2 minute cooldown feels absolutely terrible.

It’s like you took everything people disliked about Ashen Hallow, and went “how can we make it even more annoying?”

7 Likes

On the right side of the class tree just below the two Fortified Brew talents we have “Expel Harm” problem with that is that we alerady have the spell in our spellbook baseline. Is this an oversight or is it meant for that talent to improve the spell somehow? Because it feels weird to me. All three specs has it baseline.

1 Like

Roll

The interaction between Roll and other talents are weird, for starters you got the ability baseline and I must think thats intended but if you take this talent and than remove it the roll ability will be inactive and in the spellbook its just go see your Class Trainer to learn this problem is you can’t learn it from class trainer.

Celerity

Here is the same thing if you got Roll talent that should give another charge techniclly this should bring it up to three but its still two.

Chi Torpedo

If you take this you get one charge of Chi Torpedo even if you have the roll talent that should increase the charge count by one. Further more if you remove roll from your talents this won’t be usable since you havent learned Roll.

Furthermore the animation is bugged and doesnt properly work.

Expel Harm

Same for this, its in the class baseline but if you pick it in the talent tree than remove it its removed from you and you need to go and see a class trainer to learn it, and Ive been to them and you can’t relearn just like roll.

Some first impressons of the brewmaster:

Class tree seems good before the capstone level, though doesnt feel like there’s much choice before that point. At the capstone level however everything that seems a must pick is strong and boring. Tiger statue is boring while being yet another source of damage that does not give us threat. I do not see a world where you would ever pick jade serpent ever. Ox is nice to have access to but even that is very rarely more impactful than the passives.

On the spec tree i feel the same way as the class tree. Above capstone level there’s enough choice and strong interesting additions, but at the capstone level we always pick Stormstout’s last keg no matter what content, then choose between the two covenants like we currently do in shadowlands or take both without their more interesting modifying talents. I feel like bonedust brew especially is such a boring option and the interesting additions of the tree and capstone level are very strong passives.

I think either removing bonedust brew and adding something cool, or redesigning the middle capstone while giving keg smash 2 charges by default would make the spec feel a bit more new.

I confirm it’s always bugued on roll, the roll and torpedo (regarding texts) should have 2 charges, and if we don’t choose torpedo but one more roll, you only got 2

Thanks for fixing mortal touch CD to 1 min talent on today’s build

I believe the healing buff/mana cost reduction to Vivify should be removed from Escape from Reality (for Mistweaver). It’s bad for gameplay and overall balance. It turns Transendance into a throughput CD rather than utility.

2 Likes

Awful changes in todays build.

Permanent Instant Vivify was obviously too strong and I agree that it needed to be changed in some way, but the way you went about it is not great.

Instant Vivify smooths out the gameplay of fistweaver immensely. Having to hard cast in the middle of a trash pack with melee mechanics going out in every other direction feels horrible.

Making the buff stackable to 2-3, and making it triggered by Rising Sun Kick rather than a continuous 10 second proc would feel way better while still limiting it in other gameplay areas.

4 Likes

Disclaimer:
This feedback is predominantly from a PvE Mistweaver perspective. I do allude to tuning and scaling often, and I understand that beta numbers are not final or even accurate: I’m just using the current tuning as a framework for how the talents play and feel. I, like many others, am someone who is passionate about MW so I appreciate the time and effort that has been put into the spec so far - and I realise it’s still a work in progress.

Talents:

Mistweaver Tree:

Song of Chi-Ji:
On live servers this ability sees very little play, it is also in a competitive talent row. Is Song of Chi’Ji ever good enough to take in Dragonflight now that you’re not losing out on Ring of Peace or Tiger Tail Sweep? I would argue that in it’s current state, it’s not. In all forms of content it seems like a wasted talent point.

Some of the issues with the ability on the beta are that if your character’s hitbox is even partially behind an object or wall, even if your target/s are in line of sight of your other offensive or healing abilities, Song can become stuck on the object or wall in front of you even if it looks like it would and should pass by it.

There is also another issue whereby if you move immediately after casting the ability, sometimes the Song stops moving after approx. 5 yards and becomes stuck in place. I had a lot more reliability replicating this issue earlier in the week, and this may have been solved as of the time of posting but I just wanted to raise it.

Finally, there is also some issues with how the Song interacts with elevation changes. Mostly it will travel down elevation (stairs/ramps) without a problem, but during testing I have had the Song become stuck attempting to travel down small sets of stairs on several occasions.

Personally I feel that the cast time on the ability is also a contributing factor to how unattractive the talent is, but beyond that both the travel speed and how your character aims the ability are quite close to being a meme compared to other similar crowd control or abilities in the game. If the intention is to weave this ability into your gameplay whilst you’re also trying to do DPS/healing at the same time, I feel that the cast time restricts your reaction time, but having to stop what you’re doing and accurately aim your character feels clunky alongside a melee playstyle.

Making Song of Chi’Ji cast at the target location, similar to something like a Capacitor Totem or Sigil of Misery, would be a substantial quality of play improvement for the ability, furthermore either reducing the cast time or having it be an instant cast with an at-location activation time could also improve the fluidity of the ability.

Zen Pulse:
I know that there has already been changes / resolutions to the rotational clutter related to Zen Pulse, I think that the ability still feels clunky to use and that recent changes only mean it’s used less frequently.

Not considering its tuning, the way the ability works seems to go against the design philosophy of talents expressed in some more recent interviews and discussions - whereby you aren’t necessarily needing to change spec every boss or every dungeon. There is always a place for niche and situational talents and abilities, but I think particularly in the spec tree their location should reflect their usability.

The way the damage and healing works means that it’s a fairly situational ability, and on some raid fights and depending on the pulls in some dungeons you’re never going to have an opportunity to press Zen Pulse and get value out of it. If it is intended to be niche, it arguably takes up some prime real estate in the middle of the tree with the connecting choice node talents: whereas you’d expect something niche to be off to the side and more clearly optional / situational.

My initial impression is it’s the kind of talent I would like to take but may not have a point spare for it. I tend to enjoy niche/situational abilities but the way Zen Pulse currently works feels restrictive.

It cannot be cast as just an instant heal if there are no enemies in range of your target (i.e: on a ranged player in the majority of situations, on a tank that needs to kite / is kiting, as a mana-free instant heal between pulls or during raid boss intermissions etc.), generally this also means that in the majority of cases this is only an ability that can be used on melee players. It cannot be used as only damage if there are no targets in range of the enemies (more likely an issue in raiding).

In situations where you can use the ability and would be taking the talent, getting full value from the ability (damage and healing) also seems completely coincidental, I ask are you ever going to hold Zen Pulse for the healing if you need damage? Are you ever going to hold the damage if you need healing? These considerations won’t be an issue as long as the ability is not balanced around it’s potential to double dip on both damage and healing in an optimal situation.

Accumulating Mists:
(Not currently working properly after respeccing unless you relog/close the game)
Clearly a maximum stack heal is significant with accumulating mists, my concern is that the M+ and raid meta/damage profiles won’t naturally enable you to get good value from accumulating mists without simply sacrificing other elements of your gameplay/GCDs to purposefully stack it. It doesn’t even necessarily make more sense in PvP as if your target is kiting away to get a heal then you won’t be able to use Zen Pulse anyway.

I think it’s fair to say that consistently channelling for extended periods of time as a melee player in m+ or raid content is not reliable, which brings in to question how AM will be tuned, is it max stacks or nothing? I’ve tried to put some time into testing various stack quantities and although 2/3 stacks may still beat SCK damage in terms of total GCDs, if you start to swap out SCK for other abilities then lower stacks of accumulating mists become unattractive for maximising damage. Shifting the tuning so it’s always worth to press/do doesn’t sound like it contributes to how fun/interesting the ability is, it feels like the whole talent could go back to the drawing board when you factor in the existing tick boxes for getting value from Zen Pulse.

Mist Wrap/RJW choice node:
Choosing between two things that do very different things and that were previously on different talent rows / were able to both be taken doesn’t seem like a natural choice (most other choice nodes seem to mirror existing talent/legendary/conduit choices that are in the game). In the current beta build the spec has a lot of power revolving around RM, whereas on live and in the past, RJW is generally a math based talent: it’s taken if the maths supports it, and generally only ever in raids not M+ and PvP.

Yu’lons Whisper:
None of the connectors to YW make sense with the playstyle. I understand the design philosophy that players can’t just go around taking everything they want, but taking things that you’ll occasionally passively make use of to get to something you genuinely want feels like you aren’t making a conscious decision compared to some of the DPS talent trees (perhaps not a good comparison healer vs DPS). If YW for example replaced Song of Chi’Ji, although it would make YW much easier to get and would potentially mean it needs to have it’s tuning adjusted, it would create more choices within those first 8 points and now the start of the tree is less cookie-cutter.

Lifecycles/Mana Tea choice node:
This is an existing talent choice, but my concern is: is this actually a choice? Mathematically lifecycles is inferior in all forms of content, even a low value mana tea beats it based around current M+/raid playstyles. The way Lifecycles works is rigid, and generally doesn’t sync up to damage patterns. I think the talent has potential if it went back to drawing board, maybe it stacks 1-3 times, maybe it’s RM reducing XX spell and vivify reducing XX spell. It had more value with permanent instant vivify, but that being taken away in the most recent build has a knock-on effect to the viability of talents like Lifecycles.

Jade Bond:
Jade bond too weak to compete with gift of the celestials, unless there’s a damage pattern where you need a 25 second Yulon and the fight/boss is an absolute wall without it. Imbalance within the talent itself, 25% bonus to gusts of mist feels substantially more beneficial/impactful and powerful than 25% bonus to soothing breath when you consider the situations you would use either celestial and either talent.
[Edit: 14/09: Yu’lon’s Soothing Breath healing is increased by 25.0%.40.0%. Haven’t done any testing post-buff yet ]

Clouded Focus:
Clouded focus affecting Viv cleaves makes nerfed ATOTM mathematically obsolete in single target raid fights. Personally I feel this is a PvP talent that has spilled over into PvE and is currently over-affecting the spec and playstyle. I think changes so that CF only affects primary target / soothing target (works on split soothes with statue / talents) but doesn’t effect Viv cleaves would be a move in the right direction. Channelling feels counter intuitive to being a melee healer, playing melee mechanics, and having melee assignments. Beyond that, channeling regularly for multiple GCDS is deeply unsatisfying gameplay. I can appreciate there are other playstyles in the spec tree, but specifically for mythic progress content there is an expectation that in order to have respect for everyone’s time you’re playing the most optimal / viable set up when there is a clear power gap. Clouded focus potentially being a must have raid talent feels like it’s undermining the design philosophy and decisions of the last 2+ years for MW. If it’s the superior build/choice it has me rethinking if I want to play the class anymore, and I have 4000+ hours on it for SL. Needing to channel for 6-8 seconds on one player to ramp heal a raid is a playstyle that not only doesn’t make sense with the contemporary MW identity but isn’t fun or rewarding, it will just be taken, used, and done for the pure healing output that can’t be matched by nerfed ATOTM.

Faeline Stomp:
I expected FS to make a return due to it’s low play in SL, it’s a really fun button to press. I like that playing on the faeline takes some skill / thought, unfortunately the downside is that it can be regularly taken out of your control - especially as a healer, you’re not in control of fight/enemy positioning. The faeline hitbox could be improved to accommodate, more of a circle than oval. I think some of the problems with FS arise in the connecting talent nodes - healing power scaling with number of enemies doesn’t feel quite right. Arguably rewards riskier gameplay, which in general I support, but creates a huge range of variance on output within a single type of content (m+ as example as anticipate where the build will be at it’s strongest / most popular).

Ancient Concordance:
12 BK in 1 GCD during AoE feels a bit too strong… when you consider that abilities like Chi Burst almost guarantee a reset for stomp, this level of cleave has huge uptime in AoE. My main concern is that ATOTM has been nerfed by 50% to accommodate this talent combo, but the healing power potential has just shifted from RSK to BK. It’s definitely fun, and I do think this fills the gap to give the spec more damage and a varied dmg profile, but not sure if the power level feels OK. Haven’t had chance to test other healers and check their damage potential.

Awakened Faeline:
SCK healing feels weak with current tuning, and it’s just an added maintenance bonus. I think that the key is finding a balance between not being able to spam SCK to keep a group topped during low damage but also the power reflecting the position in the tree (it is a capstone afterall). Some rough ideas are to increase power but have an internal cool down of e.g 10 seconds, which creates more rotation decisions / flexibility. If you can do 2-3 SCK and the healing is fairly unnoticeable then I’d also argue it’s kind of pointless and the talent could be reworked to have a different effect. I want to make it clear I don’t want or expect SCK spam to be efficient healing, but at the moment just taking the talent for the resets on FS doesn’t seem to justify it’s position in the tree.

Tear of Morning / Rising Mist choice node:
Two strong choices, probably the choice node that makes the most sense in the entire tree - although it’s arguably only really a choice for raiding. Will these ever be balanced closely enough that you pick a preference and not just go with the maths? It would be a shame to see one or the other never picked when it’s a capstone.

Resplendent Mists:
First impression is that this talent is in the wrong place. Investing 2 points to get a conduit that is not as strong compared to what we have now doesn’t look right. Obviously scaling may change mastery healing, and from the testing I’ve been doing mastery effect and value seems to have gone up for DF compared to SL. Talking about SL, mists is essentially a conduit taken when there is no other decent option to take, not really something that is being strived for or people really want to take. I think it has the potential be changed and/or moved: could make it stronger and be a worthy of capstone talent, could move it’s place in the tree - add extra points: but not have the talent gate your next choice, e.g if you want to take 1/3 and move on you can, or really invest in it to make it part of your gameplay.

Invokers Delight:
Invokers with Gift of Celestials combo - feels great, probably too strong. 33% uptime on 33% haste doesn’t sound like something you can skip - especially compared to some of the other more underwhelming capstones. I’m measuring this power vs. retail MW as I haven’t had much opportunity to beta test other healing specs yet.

Tea of Plenty / Restorative Proliferation choice node:
I can see these choices being fun, I can also see them being underwhelming. Tea of Plenty in particular has a lot more value in M+ and PvP where the random effect is more likely to get used and/or open up gameplay options, whereas in a raid usually random and unexpected effects from a healing PoV aren’t high value. This choice node just doesn’t feel like it’s in the correct location in the tree, it’s a capstone but is it really comparable in power to things like invokers or rising mist?

Class Tree:

Jade Serpent Statue:
I realise the class tree is designed to open up choices of personal preference/playstyle. JSS is a solid PvP option so it has a place in the game, compared to other classes with powerful /attractive options at the end of their class tree, I (and I think many others) are just never going to take serpent statue over tiger statue (which has it’s own probblems). Before tiger statue was implemented, as a MW it was better to skip JSS as a capstone in the class tree - which doesn’t feel correct/right. I’m not saying serpent statue should be buffed, but maybe moved? In general, comparable to other class trees the statues aren’t that great, they’re just unique. At the moment, there is more chance of MW using Ox in m+ than using serpent statue.

I think there is enough healing in spec tree, so I’m not sure where JSS is supposed to fit in. It’s an iconic ability that’s going to see little play which just sounds bad, but I don’t really have any ideas to make it relevant without making it too powerful. If it cast/channeled sooth on its own it would be a step in the right direction, the way JSS works and with sooth being on the GCD makes it even less desirable for modern MW PvE playstyle.

White Tiger Statue:
As a MW I definitely appreciate the option to take a damage capstone in the spec tree. My main concern is how punishing it is if you mistime it or if the situation changes and you need to move the mobs, kite, are chain pulling etc - it can quickly become wasted. The other two statues don’t have this limitation as they are re-castable/moveable as you move. Is putting Xuen on the spec tree too strong? It would be a watered down version and then make WW talents juice him back up, but at least it would move with the pull/mobs without needing to reduce the cd/power on statue.

Comments:

ATOTM nerf:
I think this was/is appropriate for the fae stomp build, appropriate when factoring in the added power for BK, and I can appreciate it’s difficult to balance non-interactive healing, however the nerf/change feels like it pulls the rug from under the talent in single target encounters much more than on AoE/M+ (almost the opposite of when the legendary shines now).

It feels like ATOTM nerfs are due to the power cropping up in the rest of the talents rather then just ATOTM being too strong alone. That is understandable, but it then also punishes players for not taking certain talent combos to make up for that lack of power. I want to stress that the ATOTM playstyle is great, and although I appreciate you’re trying to build a more in-depth and interactive playstyle around it, I think that tuning-wise maintaining ATOTM buff on single target should still be valuable healing.

Chi’ji and Yu’lon:
I think there is an opportunity for the celestials to be separate talents, but both share a cooldown. I feel that being able to pick and choose your celestial per fight or multiple times during a fight rewards thoughtful gameplay. For example you could Chi’ji early but then need to Yu’lon later on because a healer died or someone failed a mechanic etc. Or during a movement heavy part of a fight use Chi’ji in one phase but later when the fight becomes static use your second celestial as Yu’lon. The choice of being able to pick and choose which one to invoke for the situation doesn’t seem too powerful when compared to priests being able to take evang and rapture, druids getting convoke and swarm etc.

Vivacious Vivification: Vivify is now instant cast.Every 10 sec, your next Vivify becomes instant.

This was an anticipated change, clearly vivify has a lot of interaction within our talent tree and having constant instant vivify would have been arguably too strong, or would have induced a vivify nerf.

Without being able to play test it yet, the way that this talent has been changed sounds wrong. If you’re in a situation where you want to save your instant vivify for an upcoming mechanic or spell, you’re now gated from using vivify altogether until that time. I think this is counter intuitive to the design philosophy of wanting/needing/implementing an instant heal - you should be able to pick and choose when to use it, and I don’t feel you should be restricted in your gameplay for doing so.

There are some immediate changes that could solve these problems, e.g: having instant charges stack to X so that you can save multiple charges and aren’t punished as heavily for spending charges if you’re purposefully pooling them. But I can’t help but think that MW had an ability that was a candidate to be transformed into an instant heal all along that wasn’t vivify: expel harm.

This suggestion is purposefully not considering the changes to expel harm in the same beta build. Expel harm seems like it was already better designed to be the MW instant heal than vivify ever was: it already has a cooldown, and it already has different aura effects for each spec. The aura effect for MW would be that it is castable on allies (outside of soothing mist). That would be the reason for a MW to take EH, whereas prior to this week’s build there was almost no reason for a MW to take it.

1 Like

Vivacious Vivification now grants an instant Vivify once every 10 seconds.
Developers’ note: We really liked the idea of pushing Vivify as a more responsive heal, but Vivacious Vivification as a 100%, always-on reduction to the cast time of Vivify was reducing the decision space for the class as a whole and completely obsoleting Soothing Mist in particular. With this change, we hope to strike a balance of allowing players a skill-testing emergency heal they’re excited to invest into, while still making more sustained with multiple Vivifies a more significant investment that will encourage using the full breadth of the toolkit.

Lets just think about this one.
Vivify cast time is equal to GCD duration so reason where instant Vivify is “completely obsoleting Soothing Mist” makes 0 sense. The only difference between us spamming Vivify with or without Soothing Mist is amount of healing Soothing Mist brings to it’s target. We are not getting any more or less Vivify casts through Soothing Mist being Vivify instant or not. Also we are either standing still and channeling Soothing Mist or standing still and casting Vivify so Soothing Mist making Vivify instant doesn’t add to mobility either. Therefor part where Soothing Mist makes Vivify instant already has no value.

“…while still making more sustained with multiple Vivifies a more significant investment that will encourage using the full breadth of the toolkit”

What really encourages us to use “full breadth of the toolkit” now? As I explained above, the only thing we get by channeling Soothing Mist is healing it does to it’s target. But in practice in almost every case we don’t cast more then two spells on one target before target gets healed up. So just casting Vivify twice before we swap to another target will do more healing and be as fast as casting Soothing Mist then Vivify.

“With this change, we hope to strike a balance of allowing players a skill-testing emergency heal they’re excited to invest into”

As for “skill-testing emergency heals” we already have revival and life-cocoon. We dont need a fake buff that will be consumed by our standard rotation and do nothing but make that rotation feel glitchy. At this point the only reason I see to even pick Vivacious Vivification is just so I waste my points to be able to progress further down the tree which is enormous let down.

In conclusion: Soothing Mist is already obsolete and hard to find moments where it’s useful and that has nothing to do with Vivify being or not being instant cast.
There are some thoughts about using it for Clouded Focus talent in Dragonflight but that still has nothing to do with Vivify being or not being instant cast.
What you essentially achieved by this change is to remove something that sounded fun, exciting and new.

5 Likes

Bad talents lacking mistweaver :
-Overflowing mists
-Restorative
-Spirit of crane
-Secret infusion
-Awakened faeline

Just from my experience that i played.

Elaborate.
You just named some of the best things in our toolkit and called them bad.