Feedback: Monks

Elaborate.
You just named some of the best things in our toolkit and called them bad.

Overflowing mists - does not do much, same as restorative, spirit crane kick lack of mana retrun.
Awakened faeline, seems good and feels good, i dont know how it will turn out in keys, imo lacks healing takes GCDs
But overall monk healing abilittes will be ones of the best in DF

Right so…

Overflowing Mists: it applies to every enveloping mist being procced or hard casted. Heal that scales of target % hp and procs every time target takes dmg is a good heal. If used well, it will do a lot. But nwm, buff please! Need 10% hp instead of 3.

Restorative Proliferation: it procs like crazy and with mist warp you can literally have full party with this buff “healing increased from monk by 40%” - does it really lack? Sure buff pls.

Awakened Faeline: they can even remove this “SCK heals for 25% of its dmg” part and we wouldnt even notice. We dont use that talent for SCK. Part where your TP hits two targets means that you get two stacks of Teachings of the Monastery with one TP and with Ancient Concordance making BoK cleave means that if you do TP->BoK you will have 9 BoK hits on AoE. Thats some nice dmg and all of those hits proc Ancient Teachings of the Monastery so thats some nice healing too. But I’d say buff it so that TP hits 3 targets, we need buffs yes yes!

Spirit of the Crane: this one was nerfed compared to live and number of extra BoKs you get out of Faeline nodes is a reason for it. Its no longer talent you will be choosing in raids but it will sustain some nice amounts of mana in M+. I dont even know how would you buff this one to balance it with both raids and M+ and mana tea. Let RSK proc it instead and increase mana received?

Secret Infusion: I never really liked this one as an idea. Or anything that makes us use TFT different that we normally would. TFT is a modifier for one of my chosen spells, add something like this to it and spell itself starts using value as in you pay less attention to what spell will you buff and more to which stat will you get out of it. But I still cant deny that amount of stat it gives is a lot. But yeah, buff please! We need 30% haste each time we press TFT, yes!

Feedback after doing some rHC on the beta, current build/playstyle;
Faeline Stomp - Rising Mist - Ancient Teachings - 12s Chi-Ji

Essence font and Faeline Stomp
The 3 target cleave on your blackout kick when you use your faeline stomp feels great to play with. The fact that it activates your Ancient Teachings is great as-well. The only real issue I have here is that you have to take Essence Font if you want to go down in-to the ‘‘tier 2 and 3’’ talent nodes. I would much prefer if Essence Font and Faeline Stomp was a choice node on row 2-1, saving 1 talent point on what I’d consider a ‘‘dead’’ talent for M+, but still leaving the M+ modifiers Ancient Concordance and Awakened Faeline where they are now (or bumped up a row since Faeline Stomp would have been moved).

Reasons why Essence Font is a ‘‘dead’’ talent for M+; Faeline Stomp procs Essence Font already, and it activates Ancient Teachings. Essence Font is mana intense, the bolts target fully healed players, it has a channel, and you’d rather use something like Vivify instead because of its target cleave and faster cast.

Ancient Teachings of the Monastery
I was disappointed that the convertion to healing had been nerfed by 50% (250% > 125%) going from Shadowlands to Dragonflight. I can understand why, because Blackout Kick can cleave with Faeline Stomp but it kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth considering it will not be a valid option for raids with the current Clouded Focus build going around. It’s still good in M+, but the price for it was the opposite for raids. So for the purpose of wanting to see multiple builds (that aren’t ‘‘handicaps’’) be possible for Dragonflight, here are some solutions.

  • Split Ancient Teachings and Clouded Focus from the choice node, leave Clouded Focus at its current position, and move Ancient Teachings to replace the talent node ‘‘Calming Coalescence’’.

What are my reasonings for this suggestion?
Currently, Calming Coalescence is a talent you wont ever pick. Because in raids and M+, you only ever cast Soothing Mist if there is a target that requires heavy single target healing, and in most cases you’d want to vivify spam them instead to save on mana. Plus in raids, other healers who are more spot healing focuses will be topping them up anyways.

Calming Coalescence also holds one of the 2 paths that gatekeeps Faeline Stomp. Why does a soothing mist and life cocoon modifier block off the modifiers to your damage abilities?

I’d much prefer having the 125% Ancient Teachings take up that spot, since it has synergy with that side of the talent tree.

Solution 2 and 3, all-though kinda boring.

  • Buff Ancient Teachings back up to 250% for raids, increase range from 20y to 40y, leave it as 125% for M+.

Reasons for this suggestion. It will be more viable for raids, and an optional build if you do not want to go Clouded Focus.

Zen Pulse
It deals less damage than a Blackout Kick on 1-3 targets, it has a 30 second cooldown, and more often than not I’m just holding on it. It’s not good for boss fights since it requires the target to be near an enemy, restricting it to tanks or melee.

Suggestions on how to change it;

  • Buff damage to 50-100% of a blackout kick. Cooldown reduction per target hit? Make the damage pulse come from you while your target recieves the healing?

Reason for this suggestion.
Damage; Why would I want to deal less damage every 30 seconds? You heal more from vivify spam, and it cleaves too.
CDR; This encourages you to use it as often as possible, instead of holding on it.
Damage Pulse on yourself; This enables you to use it on a ranged player if they are not near a pack of mobs.

Vivify and Vivacious Vivification
What I liked from the previous version was the freedom of moving around while casting Vivify, especially since we’re such a mobile class. This 10s cooldown on the instant cast vivifies feel bad to play with, especially on a fight such as ‘‘Forgemaster Gorek’’ in ‘‘Neltharus’’ where standing still to cast can be rather punishing.

Solution/Suggestion

  • Let the free vivify casts have a charge system. Let’s say vivify has 3 charges, which are free casts, once you cast one, it starts recharging from 10 seconds. Once you’ve used up all 3 charges you’ll have to hard cast it until a charge comes off cooldown.

The previous version was great to play with, this version, while watered down, will still be fun to play with.

Rising Mist and Misty Peaks/Rapid Diffusion
From what I can tell by playtesting, these ‘‘free’’ Renewing Mists do not get their duration extended by Rising Mist. Bug? Intended?

Rapid diffusion also overwrites existing Renewing Mists, definitely does not feel good.
Intended? Make it increase the duration instead by 3/6 seconds instead.

Awakened Faeline makes Faeline Stomp reset its cooldown often enough that you can maintain Ancient Teachings of the Monastery without having to fill with Essence Font, ontop of that in packs of 4-5 mobs Spinning Crane Kick have quite high HPS potential and it hits an extra target with Tiger Palm. All in all I would say you get alot for one point.

Restorative Proliferation sounds like it can increase the healing of Enveloping Mist quite abit, atm this is not in my build since I’m mostly exploring builds that allows me to fistweave a majority of the time. But for a more caster oriented build that focuses less on fistweaving this is absolutly bonkers.

Secret infusion is pretty much a 10% buff in a stat of your choice with 33% uptime, is it a boring talent yes but its also a good one.

Spirit of Crane is a talent out of the way for situations where mana is an issue if its not you don’t take it but if it is you will love that it exists. I think its well placed out of the way as an optional talent that can be a life saver in the right situation. Also it got synergy with Awakened Faeline since that extra Tiger Palm makes this go up to 2 stacks stright away so 0,9% mana considering your using Blackout Kick possibly 10 times a minute thats 10% per minute and 50% mana over a 5 minute fight. It is quite alot of mana regen over time. But as said if you don’t need it you don’t but if you do its great.

Overflowing Mists is another of those talents that in the right situation can be insane and tbh Blizzard has designed alot of fights in raids that has steady ticks of damage coming in rather than one big damage every minute like we had for abit. PvP and M+ also have quite alot of scenarios where the group has steady ticking damage on them like M+ got some really annoying affixes where this will really help out. I acutally think this is a talent that risks getting nerfed especielly for PvP.

Hello Mistweaver Monks! We have a few updates to the Mistweaver spec tree coming in the next beta build. We’d like to take a moment and discuss our upcoming changes and the philosophy behind them.

2 Point Node Positioning:

The 2-point node placement on this tree has been a little tricky to get into what we feel is the right spot. Overflowing Mists is a situationally powerful bonus, so we don’t want it controlling pathing in the bottom of the tree. Resplendent Mist felt like its use cases were more universal than its positioning. Peaceful Mending shouldn’t block off any pathways but should feel like it contributes to navigating down the tree if selected.

To accommodate these principles, we’ve moved Overflowing Mist back up to above gate 2, Resplendent Mist has moved to the node below Ancient Teachings of the Monastery and Clouded Focus, and Peaceful Mending is occupying a new connection on the right side of the tree that is not exclusively blocking any pathing below. This new pathing has also enabled Bountiful Brew and Attenuation to move up and directly connect to Bonedust Brew.

Jade Bond:

We’ve been steadily moving most of Jade Bond’s value to its Gust of Mist/Soothing Breath bonus. The dichotomy we’re looking for on this choice node is more frequent access via Gift of the Celestials versus more impactful access via Jade Bond. We’re hopefully continued tuning can get us there.

Unison:

We’ve made this into a choice node with Restorative Proliferation to make the middle path towards Invoker’s Delight slightly more appealing for all builds. Unison being on its own may have felt like a choice limiter to some builds who were interested in pursuing Invoker’s Delight.

Tea of Plenty:

We’re interested in pursuing this “random bag of goodies” design but felt the swing of expected value from this ability was too large, especially with the reintroduction of Essence Font to Thunder Focus Tea. In future beta builds, we’ve split Tea of Plenty’s effect into a choice node of two spells.

Tea of Serenity will give Thunder Focus Tea an extra charge of Renewing Mist, Enveloping Mist, or Vivify. Tea of Plenty will give Thunder Focus Tea an extra charge of Renewing Mist, Rising Sun Kick, or Essence Font. Hopefully this will maintain the same feel of the talent while allowing players to customize more towards their desired outcome.

Here’s the new layout you can expect to see:

  • Tea of Serenity. New Talent, Row 10. Thunder Focus Tea also grants Renewing Mist, Enveloping Mist, and Vivify 1 extra charge at random.

Thanks again for all of your testing and thoughtful feedback.

2 Likes

Rly like the communication towards us. Any early thoughts about ww to share? :smiley:

1 Like

Any chance RSK can gain some interaction with Brewmaster? Currently it’s just a " it does damage " ability whilst our other abilities have some interaction with the spec.

Strength of Spirit is both in the Brewmaster Tree 6th row 4th Talent one of two choices. Its also in the Class Tree 7th row and all the way to the right, below the two Fortifiying Brew Talents.

Oversight or?

Some initial testing thoughts on a few things from my part:

  1. Rising Sun Kick in the general tree and it being used as Brewmaster. It has no interaction with anything. It doesn’t cost anything. It’s our hardest hitting ability in single target. If it will be removed, the damage loss should be baked into other abilities as BRM is in the middle of the pack of the tank dps right now from my testing. Tiger Palm is a wet noodle even with all the procs (Face Palm, Blackout Combo and a crit - still equal to your average single non crit Blackout Kick). If Rising Sun Kick gets some synergy, that’d be good, too. It fits the rotation just fine.

  2. Soothing Mist in the general tree. It should be removed - make it baseline for Mistweaver. As WW or BRM it’s paradoxically useless and pretty damn OP at the same time. It costs mana, and seems like BRM and WW have infinite mana, and it heals quite a bit (half a Vivify per tick). So in some situations it can be overpowered, but most of the time just useless and doesn’t feel like something WW or BRM should have.

  3. Roll is not getting a second charge from the talent. Chi Torpedo talent doesn’t work.

  4. WW’s Thunderfist doesn’t work.

  5. What happens to BRM’s Strength of Spirit now that it’s also in the general tree?

  6. Faeline Stomp resets as Mistweaver. Blackout Kick is practically resetting Faeline Stomp every time because it hits 9-12 times per activation. I know it’s bound to be nerfed so rather bring it up early. I’d prefer Faeline Stomp having lower CD in the first place, so AToM uptime would be better without relying on rng or Essence Font that much. Or just give longer duration for AToM by default.

First off I think the changes that have recently been made are good and the communication around them also appreciated.

A few things Ive noticed around mistweaver/monk tree.

Monk tree
I feel like someone needs to have another look at this and the node placement. There are some outliers that to me make little sense.

  • Fort brew and its choice nodes positioning is still baffling to me. I cant understand why the spell is gated behind 2 Very situational talents CC Talents
  • Rollx2 being gated behind soothing mist. Ok as a mistweaver this is fine. If i was a BM or WW though I would feel bad having to waste a talent choice on soothing mist.
  • Expel harm talents just randomly sprinkled throuhgout the tree without any real thought to them. (one gated behind soothing mist, one bottom left, one bottom right and stuck behind fort brew)
  • Statues. Underwhelming and arguably ignorable. Please add interactions to them. The only one that has any sort of interaction is Black Ox. Maybe add something similar to the others. RSK to the WTS to pulse damage or Soothing mists to the JSS (for the crazy monks that like soothing mists) to pulse healing. Not sure what the interections should be, but just having click and forget talents just feels like a missed oppurtunity.
  • Make vivify instant cast again or atleast add as way of reducing the 10 seconds by dealing damage. (Maybe RSK can cut 2 seconds off it or something) Its just hardcasting as a Fistweaver feels bad. It isnt the end of the world but we deal with more mechanics as a “melee healer” so having to Channel soothing or hard cast Viv feels unnatural.

Mistweaver tree.

The mistweaver tree is in a better place especially after the proposed changes. So I will speak about things I feel would be good QoL changes.

  • Please add SCK to TotM. Smooth out our multitarget rotation and help bring us somewhat closer with other healers damage output in group content like M+. I am aware faeline is the goto build right now on beta but like others said, this is currently bugged its uptime will be nerfed. It just resets way too much with the multi BoK element added. There seems to be an understanding at blizzard that we lack behind in aoe damage as talents such as Ancient concordance and Awakened faeline for fistweavers as well as White tiger statue and Zen pulse having been added. This obviously helps but the issue here is all of these spells are minimum 30 Second CD with WTS being 2mins (side note - weak and uninspiring for a 2min CD). Our base kit is still extremely weak. TotM goes someway to change that by adding stacks and a RSK Reset mechanic. In Multi target situations though you are then forced to ignore TotM inplace for SCK spam or we single target and make use of the higher RSK resets. Adding SCK doesnt make us broken. but it does allow us to take advantage of SCK spam in AoE situations and still make use TotM talent effectively.

  • Add JSS statue’s soothing mist into the talents effected by soothing mists. Allow it to stack Calming Coalescence, Accumulating Mist and Unison.

2 Likes

A very small feedback about two brewmaster talents Dragonfire Brew and Invoke Niuzao, the Black Ox (the upgrade which increases stomp damage depending on the purified stagger between stomps): PLEASE rework them.

Because both of these talents go with the very annoying playstyle of “If I take more damage, I do more damage”, it makes taking more damage rewarding.

Throughout Shadowlands monks were turning their backs so that they dont dodge, using /sit, standing in fire, avoiding damage reduction cd usage, etc, in order to take more damage and make juicy stomps (500k+ crits). This is a playstyle that is not enjoyable and rewards wrong attitudes.

At the end of the day, we are here to tank the damage and mitigate it as much as possible.

2 Likes

Beta build: 10.0.2.45632 Update:

Mistweaver Tree:

Vivacious Vivification:

After having the opportunity to test the talent change, it plays fine. My intial apprehensions were off-target. I’d even go as far as to say that it could still be too strong and an increase to every 12 seconds wouldn’t be unjustified.

Regarding the internal banking/stacking/recharge system, I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with it, but it definitely jumps out as something that needs a WA to properly track if you really care about maximising the value. That could be averted by having an absolute timer - I don’t think that is necessarily needed but it would have the benefit of allowing muscle memory to adapt to the timing during gameplay.

The only aspect of the talent I’m not enthusiastic about is that in raid content vivify will become part of your pre-pull rotation if you want/need to pre-queue multiple charges - but I realise in the grand scheme of things that’s a fairly trivial non-issue.

Jade Bond:

Taking Chi’Ji’s gusts to 40% bonus feels good. It also creates more synergy with resplendent mists which works out well with the upcoming planned move of that node.

I think there is still an imbalance within the talent itself, as 40% bonus to soothing breath just isn’t as impactful in the scenarios that you would be playing Yu’lon. Arguably you aren’t using Yu’lon in a raid for the breath anyway, and although PvP isn’t my forte it feels like Jade Bond/Yu’lon needs a PvP aura with extra%.

Zen Pulse:

I’ve had more opportunity to test zen pulse, as a disclaimer I may repeat aspects of feedback I’ve already given. I’m still concerned about the layers of restrictions on regularly using or getting value from the ability: typically you’d expect those kind of gameplay restrictions to be connected to longer/more impactful cooldowns. I think for the most part the dev team has done a great job of removing buttons that don’t feel good to press. Zen pulse is kind of stuck in this no man’s land of being a button I want to be pressing for healing (not just dps), but often aren’t or don’t feel great about it. I can see the potential which is why I put time into a second round of feedback.

One aspect that I keep coming back to is: should zen pulse heal? The majority of the time that I have been using zen pulse, I’m using it for damage, and getting a well-timed/good value heal is often coincidental or only possible on-pull. I can’t help but think that instead of overhealing, zen pulse could provide either a HoT or an absorb instead of a flat heal. Generally this would mean that it’s a much stronger ability regardless of the amount of enemies hit, and it also doubles down on it’s identity as a tank specific ability.

In regards to usability, I feel that the range restrictions often make you think about your gameplay - which is good, but I also think that they’re unintentionally punishing in situations where you just want to be able to react to what’s going on around you and make use of your full toolkit. Realistically you may just get away with being able to use zen pulse on some cheeky evokers, but other than that this is a strictly melee heal in the majority of cases. It feels like zen pulse has an invisible small print on the tooltip which essentially says: ‘this is for use on tanks in 5man content’. I’ve thought about what would happen if you start to increase the range to allow more flexibility to heal ranged targets (10 yards, 12 yards etc), and it then becomes an issue where it may start breaking cc close to your current pull etc. when using on melee - and that feels like it’s not a solution, I feel like what is needed is to double down on it being a tank orientated ability and make sure that’s where the value is.

I’m not flat out saying it doesn’t have other uses, but clearly that is where the value is intended to be.

Zen Reverberation:
In isolation the way it works is fine. What I find strange is that typically investing more talent points into an ability/niche gives you an added bonus with increased gameplay interactions/options - whereas zen reverb. adds more restrictions with the added requirement of needing a target to have 2 HoTs on them to trigger the second pulse.

This means that if you’re trying to get value from your talent points and want to trigger zen reverb. each cast of zen pulse, you can’t just drop a zen pulse on someone without prepping it. In reality, what this means is that players will use a WA to track who is eligible to trigger the second pulse to stop you from accidentally using it on a target that won’t get a second trigger. Is zen pulse really an ability that should need a set up?

On top of that, it also further moves the ability into the niche of being a tank heal, as they’re considerably more likely going to have or need those activating HoTs rolling on them. The benefit of the talent is that if you have properly set up the second trigger, on a large pull it has great DPS value, although arguably the healing aspect is still somewhat wasted / not maximised (as your target is already going to have multiple HoTs on them just to trigger the reverb. anyway.)

If you’re taking zen reverb. you’re investing two talent points into an ability and that investment does nothing to alleviate the initial limitations of zen pulse, and furthermore actually adds to them. Tuning aside, that doesn’t sound like a solid pay off.

Accumulating Mist:

Accumulating mists feels very lost and confused right now. I can see the inspiration and intention behind the talent, and I think the idea is fine, but the execution has missed the mark by a long shot in my opinion.

The best way I can break down this talent is by asking, what is the interaction intended to be for?

If there’s some incredibly niche situation where your target is taking colossal damage and would benefit from the heal, you would already be channelling on that target for 6 seconds to heal them up - they would need to be taking borderline unhealable damage for the accumulating mist heal to not be overhealing when it triggers. That seems like an extremely rare situation.

Assuming that’s a pretty reasonable majority case scenario - that your target wouldn’t need healing after being spot healed for 6 seconds, then for the majority of situations you’re channelling accumulating mists for damage.

The current tuning on beta means that the damage is worth sacrificing 6 other DPS GCDs on low-mid enemy quantities. Obviously there will be stronger more compelling math cases to be made closer to the time of final tuning and that’s not really what I’m diving into right now. One thing to consider is that even if the raw/flat damage from accumulating mist was superior, you lose out on all the other interactions from the rest of your kit sacrificing those GCDS - stomp/atotm/rising mist etc etc.

At a glance this may seem like a PvP talent. My arguement is that it really is not a viable PvP talent: If someone is being blasted from range you cannot even zen pulse them after building stacks anyway. If someone is kiting from melee, if they kite too far they can’t be pulsed. If they cc within pulse range, it will be broken. With my limited PvP experience I can see this isn’t great for PvP. Besides all that, even attempting to go to 2-4 stacks, you’re gonna be spell locked anyway.

As with zen pulse and zen reverb, accumulating mists offers up a range of further restrictions/problems:

  • If someone else needs healing in that 6 second window and you need to break your channel, you lose your buff.
  • If someone needs to be dispelled
  • If you get CC’d, stunned, feared, silenced…
  • If you need to move
  • If your target moves out of range of enemies
  • If the mobs die earlier than expected
  • If a mob needs kicking/CCing
  • If the intended target of your zen pulse changes during your channel
  • You started precasting/stacking sooth/accumulating mists and mistimed it and zen pulse is still on CD
  • Plenty of other situations I couldn’t come up with off the top of my head

Not to mention that once you’ve channelled for 6 seconds you have 1 GCD to press zen pulse before losing your buff. The limitations and restrictions are painful. Perhaps the maths will indicate that a 1-2 stack pulse is great and that’s much easier to play around, but that’s not what the talent is right now. At the moment these talents are inadvertently competing with capstones such as invoker’s delight, because that’s where you can go and put your points if you skip these.

Class Tree:

Provoke:
I fully appreciate I’m coming at this from an extremely bias PoV, but provoke rank 2 feels like a Brewmaster tax. Undeniably provoke move speed was a nice QoL for MW/WW to have for free, it seems unfair that poor Brewmasters gotta use up a talent point for their taunt just to stop MW/WW getting rank 2 baseline.

Disable:
With such a low mana cost and no cooldown we can spam it infinitely - not sure if this is intended or not. SCK refreshes the duration so we can set up disables on a whole bunch of mobs and keep it up forever. Kiteweavers?

Expel Harm:
The baseline damage is underwhelming, it seems like bringing the damage% up to at least match the damage of tiger palm would be worthwhile. I think it’s fair to say that the majority of PvE MW builds will not put points into Strength of Spirit or Vigorous Expulsion to capitalise/abuse that kind of baseline buff. Perhaps it needs a PvE/PvP damage aura if MW will be taking the above talents in PvP to do chunky Expel Harm heals. When Expel Harm was in the class tree, there was almost no reason for a PvE MW to take it, now it’s back to being baseline - even though you’re getting it for free the frequency of actually using the ability is so low. But now it has 3 talent nodes for it in the class tree, sounds like a lot of real estate for a button you don’t want to press. Seems like there’s an opportunity to make it into something you do want to press, or at least something you’d consider talenting into to get value from pressing it.

Fortifying Brew Upgrade: (specifically 25% dodge and armour)
I’m using this talent as a platform to discuss the wider question of: do all talent nodes have to be usable by every spec?

For the class to work - clearly not. As an example, upgrading fort brew is something you can comfortably never take, always skip, can clearly go around it, and it doesn’t effect where I can put points and doesn’t gatekeep. At face value, solid tree design. In practical terms there is not a problem, the point of discussion I would like to raise is; if some talents are just not for your spec, how come they’re in the class tree and not the spec tree?

The fort brew upgrade in particular seems like a talent that would be a good candidate for spec specific auras. Especially with such a long base cooldown, I could see something like a MW specific aura that gives closer to 50-75% dodge for 15 seconds (not sure how strong that would be in PvP) or more armour being playable. Even if the talent is still niche I think there is a big difference between something being pickable and something being essentially a total waste of a point i.e unplayable.

I’m sure there’s hundreds of potential spec specific aura ideas, maybe getting hit gives you mana back or something crazy idk. I can appreciate that making every talent be playable for every spec is an extremely difficult task, but surely having some talents that are just actually not there for you to pick defeats the purpose of having a class tree separate from a spec tree. I understand that there is always going to be talents that are less desirable, maybe substantially so, but if they’re essentially unplayable it feels like it should be a spec tree option not a class tree option.

For WW the class tree
Some nodes could be better or redesigned … thinking of those around expel harm,
choice node around chiwave/burst aint feelin good,
also so many nodes around touch of death … not sure - would love something else, like new =)
And then at last … the Statues … no interaction at ALL,.

The Sepc tree:
Ways and Connection path are pretty nice
the problem i think is…
again 3 nodes around touch of death, at least two of them not working at the moment.,
I like the Xuen Bottom end … but atm the dmg of Xuen is underwhelming.,
LOVE Empowered Tiger Lightning … thats Interaction … thats fun playing around
works also with the rdn spawns … love it
LOVE Keefers … no more to say ^^

At last 3 points …
At last we have to option to get rid of WDP … not gonna miss that
Then Faeline and Bonedust … Faeline will suffer the same problems that Hunter had with their convenant ability… so much moving… around in dungeons
and Bonedust - yeah … oklay… can live with that, although waiting for Attenuation or Bone Marrow Hops to change… its basicly the same
And Invokers Delight… WHY?

All in all i gotta say WW feels awesome at all. Love Gameplay and Style.
Sure some things will get changed and we will see. Definetly my Top Choice to main in DF atm.

Mistweaver: Class tree -
Not sure if Jade Statue will be picked - perhaps some biuld around Unison - but thats hard to incorporate atm.
Remove Expel Harms nodes or buff it.

Spec tree -
Didnt think BUT Fealine feels awesome with MW and the nodes around for fistwaeaving,
Has the most possibiltys of all 3 specs i think.
Ok, Zen Pulse has Issues - but skipping it atm at all - needs a redesign into something else - perhapls like a little shield or let it be used on tanks even if no mobs are around?
Rising Mist could be swapped with Tea of Plenty/RP node.

Make Statues baseline and put Fealine Stamp, Bondedust in these nodes. They are shared in all Spec trees. Leave the interaction nodes in the Spec tree.
Remove Invokers Delight - its boring and we have seen u can do better that boring Stat buff on CD.

Then again - seems in gonna Main Monk - so Job good done - but still Room for Improvement.

I realise that essence font is still intended to be a core part of the MW toolkit and gameplay, but with the addition of FS triggering ancient teachings, I’ve been brainstorming talent node movements which don’t significantly effect the tree as a whole or any particular build path (for any type of content), but make essence font truly optional (rather than having to take it but essentially never use it).

This is what I’ve come up with:

  • Essence Font moved to 4-3 (replacing Song of Chi’Ji)

  • Life Cocoon moved to 2-1 (replacing Essence Font)

  • Teachings of the Monastery moved to 3-1 (replacing Life Cocoon)

  • Spirit of the Crane moved to 6-2 (replacing Mists of Life)

  • Mists of Life moved to 4-1 (replacing Teachings of the Monastery)

  • Song of Chi’Ji moved to 5-1 (replacing Spirit of the Crane)

I don’t think that these changes effect most of the more popular raiding or PvP builds currently being tested and brainstormed, but it does give some of the more popular M+ builds one extra talent point. None of the options for that extra talent point are too crazy in terms of power… with the exception of being able to take bonedust brew instead of EF, which is kind of unfortunate as obviously BDB is a significant power spike over EF (considering EF is not really being used anyway) and that’s probably a deciding factor in not making this kind of node movement.

Can we please speak about the pathing in the WW-Tree?

Neither the path from Inner Peace (5-2) nor from Meridian Strike (5-4) to Drinking Horn Cover (6-3) make any sense since the only thing you can achieve with that is avoiding Storm, Earth, and Fire/Serenity which then makes Drinking Horn Cover entirely useless.

The better solution would be to change the connections 5-2->6-3<-5-4 to something like 6-2<-5-3->6-4 so we have a direct connection between Storm, Earth, and Fire/Serenity and Spiritual Focus.

The same issue is a bit down the tree for the newly added connections from Forbidden Technique(7-2) to Xuens Bond (8-2) and from Teachings of the Monastery (7-4) to Empowered Tiger Lightning(8-4). If we ever choose to use this path we get talents to improve our Celestial but cant ever reach any talent that spawns this Celestial for us. So we still have to use the path from the top through Invoke Xuen (7-3).

A Solution for that could be like this.

3 Likes

My feedback will mostly be about the WW talent tree and somewhat about the spec tree.

First of my thought about the development cycle so far for windwalker. I always feel like windwalker gets way to little updates on why things are the way they are while we are getting some small developer notes like with did this week about JI and HC (which i dont really agree with ill explain later) it feels a bit sour. MW has gotten multiple big developer updates the past couple of fridays with explanation to why certain things got changed the way they are and what the idea is with the tree in general now i dont want to say thats a bad thing cuz its a really good thing and im happy for the MWs out there but it feels a bit bad for Windwalker and i guess also for the BRM monks out there. Its been almost 2 months if not even 2 months that the tree came out and it had almost no changes in regards of positioning or talents that people dont agree with. The only things that actually happend were that some talents had their values changed to % instead of flat damage which is good but some talents just feel really bad or way out of place. Also some good talents we liked got removed like Hit schemes and we got HC back for it which most dont like. The things we gained made the tree feel worse in general then better so thats first and how i think about the cycle for now.

Now on to the general tree:
For most im okay with how this tree is at the moment there are some weird choices like locking a second roll behind soothing mists and having 2 nodes for paralyse. But overal it got good changes so keep that up. Now for the worst part in my opinion the capstones , Serpent statue will never be taken by anybody and its a capstone. Capstone talents in my opinion that should give utility or buff your gameplay. Now Dave the ox statue is very situational and now for the windwalker one its really boring and i think its a really bad design its range is bad the damage got nerfed hard and its just another 2 minute shoot and forget abilty that does nothing unique then pulse some damage. I dont really have a great idea how to change it but there are some really bright minded monks on the forums here and on the NA side that had some really good suggestions (also the discord maybe hop in once in a while and look around in it.)

Now for the Spec tree for Windwalker:
At first glance i really liked the tree it brought back some great additions we had over the past 3 expansions. And i was pretty hyped to play around with it after having done that i still quite like it but there are some pain points that i would like to point out:

First Touch of the tiger: i dont really get it why its there and its leading in too the AOE side of the tree, my suggestion is to either swap it with Hardened Soles or Crane vortex because with SBT those are 2 of your AOE spenders being buffed going in to that side.

Rushing jade wind: it got buffed but its still a bad button to press its hasted which means you would spend a global on it like every 4 seconds and it feels really clunky my suggestion would be to either remove it and put something else there something new or make it a passive you get after using SCK. So you would spawn a rushing jade wind tornade for x seconds dealing x amounts of damage after using SCK.

Inner peace: This talent is just bad. Its 10 energy its boring it adds nothing and it changes nothing especially not when we get ascension a way better version of this so early in to the tree. Besides that its gatekeeping HC a flat 6% damage increase so now HC feels like a 2 point talent node. My suggestion is to put back hitschemes in its place hitschemes would add AOE damage and ST damage something that HC also does.

Widening Whirl: Also once again a boring bad talent that no one will pick could be put together with crane vortex as a 2 talent node and behind it you could do something with TOK.

Bonedust brew: A very controvesial talent its not widely liked cuz it promotes degenerate gameplay but i guess this will not get removed so its okay to have it in the AOE side as a capstone. The change that i would like to suggest is to remove the awfull new talent we got with it this week Dust in the wind which feels like a horrible capstone talent and put bountifull brew the unity legendary in its place. Bonedust brew will never do the amount of damage it does on live cuz it doesnt have the 84% damage increase from bonemarrow hops besides that windwalker is the only spec that has bonedustbrew but not the unity legendary.

Serenity: I love serenity i think its an awesome talent and i would like to see 1 change too it and thats either make it a 1 minute cooldown or give it 2 charges like SEF has this will give you more choice in which talent you prefer or what would be best for certain dungeons/ boss fights. Or either pick Jfunks idea from over on the NA side of the forums.

Skyreach: Is mostly a pvp talent i kind if like the dash it can kill you in PVE but eh its what ever but maybe redisgn it a bit to something more attractive to PVE.

Glory of the Dawn: Maybe change this to Tornado Kicks from the legion artifact and make it proc based on Crits. And make the proc work with XBG.

Jade Ignition: you got to this talent on this weeks update but still i think its not a rewarding choice too make. it doesnt interact with Strike of the windlord which its gatekeeping. Every spec has a clear ST route and a clear AOE route or have talents that line up with each other this doesnt. If you want to keep it there and dont want to swap it with HC maybe make it proc of another ability besides SCK like make it proc of using Strike of the windlord and that it does more damage to 1 target. This way it wont feel bad to pick and it still rewards different routes in the tree.

Thunderfists: This talent is fine but its mostly for AOE Jfunk suggested it already maybe make it a choice node with the old legion legendary The Windblows. This way we can choose to pick either thunderfists for AOE or the wind blows for ST.

Touch of death nodes: I would kind of like an explanation to all the TOD nodes like they seem cool and im all for it but they still dont work and i dont really know why they are there then to use in M+ for killing off packs faster. Maybe change the rank 2 TOD talent in the general tree to TOD being able to use on targets above 80% and below 35% health cuz now the rank 2 in the general tree is legit the same thing we already get baseline.

Faeline stomp: This talent didnt see much play in SL cuz first of all its tuned really bad and second of all it a ground effect which you have to stand in for its full effect. This feels bad as being a mobile melee spec cuz if the tank moves out of it its just yea bad. Most monks already have said this a 1000 times but please swap it out with Weapons of Order a single target ability that alters gameplay and is just such a fun ability to play with in shadowlands why waste it on something that barely saw play. If you do want to keep the talent then double down on it and maybe change it to a spender that does actual damage and the effect is on your character instead of a ground effect so that you arent planted in a certain spot.

Xuen: there are alot of xuen nodes maybe you could combine some of them in too less in put something else in its place.

Crosswinds: this isnt a talent in the tree but this was a artifact trait back in legion would love to see this return in the tree somewhere. always thought it was a cool addition

Hitschemes: would really like to see this return in the tree maybe place it where inner peace is at now.

Thats all for the talents first of all thanks for the tree and the work you have put in too it and thanks for the bugg fixes and the small developer updates most of the weeks. Would really like to see some changes to the tree esp inner peace, JI , Bountyfull brew in the tree and the return of weapons of order. I hope you can gain something from this feedback and for other monks feel free to react on it if you agree or not and let me know why. All in all would really like to see more changes too the tree like most other classes have had cuz im pretty worried that windwalker gets the short end of the stick again and doesnt get enough attention for another development cycle. Have a great day good luck with the tree and cant wait to see an update to the tree in the future :slight_smile: PS give back weapons of order thanks.

3 Likes

Since talent tree iterations are done I want to thank you for the work and some new fresh air for WW monks.

Please consider this for tuning. If you want to go the bdb path for m+ again I would appreciate that the difference of fls is not far behind. I got the feeling some of us like bdb while some of us like fls( me included spin to win is just boring)

Also is there some capacity of the art work team left?
Could you change the style of fls and bdb to a more monk generic style? Otherwise I will get ptsd from shadowlands references

after playing beta for awhile WW seems to be in a decent state, strike being back is really good for the spec, the old artifact/azerite traits really help with the flow & feedback loop of gameplay but i have two main issues

tiger statue feels like a unnecessary CD added on top of a heavy CD reliant spec,
while statue is a easy if somewhat awkward CD to use, you just place it & it does its thing, its functionally the same as xuen, it just stays in one place which poses the question why have both?

they literally just had this problem with warrior with skull banner just being a totem like clone of recklessness saw the issue & got rid of the redundant ability, yet we are stuck with the same exact problem

i hope this isn’t just another case in WW’s long history of being the forgotten spec that is low priority & thus gets no tuning/scaling/bug fixes for the expansion

second is a personal gripe as a m+ enjoyer, but also a sentiment shared buy a large portion of the WW player base

that issue is bonedust, i cannot express how awful this ability is, when in the history of wow has a specs “main” damage ability fundamentally negated the core of the spec & been left in that state for a whole expansion,
and now they want us to use it again for another two years, literally the whole identity of WW is the mastery, its why most of us fell in love with the spec, the flow, but for the whole of SL & now for the next two years we are forced to spam one button for 80% of our damage, ignoring mastery every one minute hoping for rng procs of extra BDB uptime & dance procs,

this runs counter to the whole spec, there is no reason to manage CDs, no point saving energy or banking chi to line things up like we used to in the past
for the last two years & the foreseeable future we have gone from the measured, slower paced, tactical melee to “pray for procs” “spin to win” casino style gameplay

all the aforementioned progress of the artifact/azerite interactions are just throw out of the window by this lazy trash tier ability

not to mention out stat scaling, while most of us are used to not taking haste as a WW, now we are heavily incentivised to drop mastery, having two functionally dead stats is a huge problem for a spec

i cant for the life of me figure out why this spell was chosen over weapons of order, hell i would even take fallen order over BDB any day of the week, at least that ability fits with the whole melee pet summon theme we have been pigeon holed into since legion

it almost feels like the decision to keep BDB was made by a person with a spreadsheet instead of a person who knows the spec, they looked at the stats, saw 99% of WWs take BDB & just assumed people like using the spell not realizing we are FORCED to use this god awful ability due to how the damage was tuned

anyway, i might have got a bit worked up there, BDB rant over, im just frustrated i guess, been a WW main for a long time, but if i have to role play as a helicopter for 2 more years i might have to reluctantly re-roll

1 Like

Feedback on Class Tree and WW Tree solely from a PVE perspective:

WW’s tree has a lot of potential but there are a few pain points that needs to be addressed, as much as it is a bit sad to see us transition into a tuning phase with very little changes happening to the WW tree compared to other classes, the tree does not need much to become great so I hope its still not too late to see some changes.

First, I will keep the talk about the good stuff minimal and focus on the things that needs to be addressed and as we are now moving into a tuning phase my feedback will also be related to that to an extent.

The Good:

TotM: Great talent and arguably the best addition to the tree.
SBT: Another great talent with great synergy with TotM
OPS+GotD: Glad to see those back
XBG: Great Talent and great synergy with the above talents.

Seeing all those talents return is great, they have amazing interconnectivity and synergy between them which is something that feels so right for a Windwalker. I really have nothing more to say about those, they are just good.

As tuning hasn’t really happened yet and it will fallback to that so who knows, I feel like there is a design decision of spreading our AoE dmg into multiple areas rather than throwing all our eggs in one basket. I feel like I’m actively using all my abilities in all situations albeit at a different frequency and imo that’s a good direction and a good feeling. For example, even with things like XBG, depending on tuning of both RSK and FoF more importantly I can see myself weaving in RSKs even in multi target situations to farm FoF back asap to use it not to mention the increased reset chance provided to RSK through TotM and SBT synergy. Or weaving in BoKs at a higher target count over SCK based on TotM stacks or using SCK at lower target counts to trigger JI for example. Again this is all based on tuning at the end and I’m aware BUT if thats the direction the spec is heading then I personally like it as it feels much better that all my abilities are being used and weaved in with a different priority/frequency based on the situation and adds a little bit more of decision making. I like it.

What needs to be addressed:

Spiritual Focus: Serenity has been uncompetitive and not played for multiple expansions (years) now and it would be sad to potentially go another expansion not playing it. As much as its looking a bit more promising in DF with things like SBT spreading MotC for example, It still suffers from flexibility and versatility compared to SEF due to its CD and and the extra charge on SEF. Spiritual focus providing barely 4 seconds of CDR as of now is weak and I cant see it ever worth the point in itself. Giving it the DHC treatment and buffing it would go a long way in helping Serenity reach a 1m CD or close to with proper uptime which could be the support the ability needs to stand and compete against SEF in certain situation atleast, and I’m certain just like myself many monks would be very happy to finally get to play this talent again after years without feeling like we are hindering ourselves in any situation.

Rushing Jade Wind: Same as Serenity, this ability not being played isn’t just due to damage reasons or competing talents but mostly the very obnoxious playstyle issues, currently it just feels disruptive/annoying and not worth dumping chi on it every 4-5 seconds to maintain this when you can simply just dump the chi else where. Even if you buff this ability significantly to the point where its not avoidable due to numerical reasons I just cant imagine anyone being happy to endure that playstyle, so its not really a good “fix”.

Suggestion: Make it a passive that triggers with a SCK once every 10-15 seconds, this will give it multiple tuning knobs that makes it less of a headache to tune and suddenly turns the talent into a feelsgood talent when SCK has more to provide every X seconds aswell as potentially causing a shift in SCK priority to be weaved in even at lower target counts to trigger RJW based on tuning which adds to what I spoke about above.
This is one of many ideas out there to help shape RJW into a good/useful talent.

Dust in the Wind: This talent is straight up useless. I cant see a situation where this can be a QoL thing even by a little bit or have any impact whatsoever. For example, if I’m in a situation where adds are too spread to the point that they can all be coated by BDB with Dust in the Wind talented, then my own abilities most likely do NOT have the range to hit them in the first place, thus them being coated by bdb and sitting there looking pretty is well, pretty much useless. And if its a case of well, they do spawn/start spread out but stack up later then there is no point in throwing BDB early to coat them and waste uptime on it while I’m not doing damage, the play would simply be to wait until they are gathered before throwing my BDB.

Suggestion: if Bountiful Brew is simply not making a return for WW for whatever reason then a simple change would be to maybe make Dust in the Wind cause BDB to deal X Shadow Damage to targets hit by the initial hit (throw) and/or maybe add X seconds extension to its duration. This just turns BDB into a non dead global by turning it into a small-medium ish uncapped hit and would fit AoE more based on its position in the tree. sometimes simple stuff are enough but again this is just a random idea out of many things that can be done to change this talent from useless to useful.

Faeline Stomp: At this point, it seems unlikely/clear that WoO is not making a return despite it being a very well received and good ability. But Faeline Stomp also suffers from playstyle issues which causes it to be annoying and easily underperform due to that. For start, the ability has no real interaction with our kit whatsoever and it just functions as a free of cost ability to fill in dead globals while providing a decent 8% damage taken debuff to enemies with another point investment (Faeline Harmony). That is fine, but then we have the issue of gameplay where constantly trying to stand in a randomly shaped Faeline to maximize uptime to make the talent good enough is just very polarizing to say the least, there are a alot of situations in both raid and M+ specially where you’re constantly avoiding alot of things in melee such as frontals, ground effects, adjusting position for frontal based abilities of your own etc, as much as this sounds like the ability adds “skill expression” and it really doesn’t do it in the right way and it just ends up being annoying and not fun. I understand there are monks who enjoy it but I wish something can be done to address it and improve its gameplay a bit where we can reach a middle ground.

Attenuation+Xuen’s Bond: For the entirety of Shadowlands, the CDR component of both those Conduits/Traits was practically useless and they were only taken for the Damage Increase components of them. There was 1 situation in the entirety of SL where Xuen’s Bond CDR had an impact it was very early Sylvanas Mythic progress where it allowed Xuen to come off CD 10 seconds early and be usable on the 2nd platform for add damage. This was still a very minor impact and it was only in the very very early weeks of prorgress and it immediately became obsolete again a week or 2 after with gear levels. BMH (Attenuation) CDR did pretty much nothing, iirc, it was bugged for a long time and even then you never really cared for the extra few seconds of CDR that it provided as you always treated BDB as a 1min CD to help better line it up with your SEF charges and Xuen.

Suggestion: It would be great if both of those talent’s CDR component can be adjusted to be more meaningful and enable more CD flexibility/versatility that monks are known to have to a degree, for example, if Xuen’s bond can turn Xuen into a 1m30s CD with enough uptime it could allow monks to change their CD profiles from lets say a 1m+2m with SEF/Serenity (with Spiritual focus considered too) and Xuen respectively to lets ay a 1m30s+3m profile with both SEF/Serenity and Xuen. same goes for Attenuation turning BDB into a 45s CD for example. If thats not a design direction that can happen to WW due to tuning reasons then thats fair but as it stands when you read those talents and realize that the CDR component in the tooltip is effectively flavor text and in practice does nothing it leaves a bad taste so to speak.

Minor Stuff but:

Inner Peace and Hit Combo: As much as there has been some talk about this and how Inner Peace is weak in the previous weeks, I understand its meant to be a gateway to Hit Combo and effectively making Hit Combo a 2 point Investment. Hit Combo was also generally received poorly and I was happy to see it gone for something else in the first iteration of the tree, frankly its just not a fun talent to play with for the reward it gives as it can penalize not only mistakes but for an example and a niche situation/s; sometimes you might wanna make the conscious decision of Tiger Palming twice in a row to pool resources for a certain situation ranging from a short damage phase to a has to die fast prio target and so on. Or maybe hypothetically going for more instantaneous damage and wanting to BoK twice in a row or SCK twice in a row to finish of a prio add or multiple adds in a short window or you wipe, lets say Painsmith adds or Council’s Attendants, they are the first fitting examples I can give off the top of my head but I’m sure there are plenty more situations/examples, this talent just costs you 6% damage by doing so which would take you 5 more globals to get up in that case. (Again this is niche I know but still.) Ultimately I’m fine with having to play Hit Combo for another expansion but currently Inner Peace even for a gateway or an extra point investment for Hit Combos value is just not enough, 10 Max Energy provides little to literally no DPS increase and you definitely do not feel it.

Suggestion: I just rather have this talent do something that I “feel” so maybe switching it from 10 max energy to 5 energy cost reduction to TP ? or something along those lines as I would atleast be able to feel that in my gameplay over an increased energy cap.
Once again this is just a random suggestion and I’m sure there are ALOT of things that can be done to this talent where it hits the desired goal of its power in that position while also being “felt”.

Again this whole topic regarding those 2 talents is minor to me compared to the issues above them yet I ranted about it more than I should so I apologize for that but I just felt like putting out my thoughts behind it in hopes something small could happen because why not right ?.

To end this, I’m once again excited about the interconnectivity and synergy and being able to use all our abilities in most situations and feel good about it, and I hope we do not return to putting all our eggs in 1 basket spin spamming praying for DoCJ and BDB procs.

Finally the Class Tree!

I’m only going to talk about the biggest issue at hand with the class tree and that is the Capstones, The capstones are actually very poor I think we are the only class that is not excited nor really want to path down to our capstones. Black Ox Statue is niche and frankly very low impact atleast for a WW/MW that I cant find any situation off the top of my head where I would’ve used this to a great success as a WW in the past years.
The same with Jade Serpent Statue, outside of maybe Arena, I dont see a WW or a BrM taking it whatsoever for spothealing.
Then we have White Tiger Statue, It is extremely lackluster to say the least and the only capstone that is not situational yet very unimpactful and uninspired, a 2m cd that does extremely mediocre damage yet have a 10 yard range is just… you get the point.

Its sad to not see anything being done to the statues/capstones to make them less situational and more desirable for all monk specs when its been a topic of discussion for a while now and yet we are moving towards a tuning/debugging phase already.

Suggestion: Even a band-aid fix to make them more desirable is acceptable at this point instead of having to wait for 10.1 or more to see anything being done to them. One way that can happen is maybe add a passive effect to each Capstone ? this could range from something thematically fitting or a very simple band-aid temp fix like adding a stat increase passively to each capstone, for example, White Tiger Statue increases your critical strike by X% or Black Ox Statue also Increases your Mastery/Vers by X% and so on, at the very least this makes them more desirable to path down to and take just to grab some secondary stats while the statue is ready when you need to press it for when the situation arises. I really dont know what else can be done to them with the timeframe we seem to have now and the transition into the tuning/debugging phase but something has to be done about the capstones before launch.

Finally, I apologize for the long feedback and I hope to see some of those issues/things addressed before launch or atleast communicated properly. Overall I’m happy with the WW tree if tuning is done right as its all about that now and it can throw everything out of the window if certain abilities dont feel good to press and so on.