Feedback: Monks

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Monks in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

1 Like

This might be a bug, but currently healing from Ancient Teachings and Awakened Jadefire does not interact with Aspect of Harmony. If this is intended, then it completely removes Master of Harmony as an option from any content where Jadefire Stomp/AT are taken.

Also, when Aspect of Harmony ends, all stored vitality is lost even if Purified Spirit is not taken. Letting any unused harmony remain stored for use in the next Harmony window would make for some very interesting decisions around both spending Harmony, and the Purified Spirit/Harmonic Gambit choice node.
If this remains how it is, I believe we will be locked into taking Purified Spirit in any challenging content, as otherwise we will be simply wasting too much stored Harmony.

2 Likes

Hello hello! Thanks for taking in feedback for Monks. I have played around a bit with both Windwalker and Mistweaver and wanted to leave to feedback here, on both class reworks and Hero Talents (I’ll do my best to keep it organised)!

Windwalker:

  • The intuition when looking at the various blackout kick and teachings of the monastery enhancing talents down the left hand side of the tree is that you would be wanting to generate as many ‘Blackout Kick!’ procs as possible and have as many Teachings of the Monastery stacks as you can before spending that proc in order to get maximum value out of ‘Courageous Impulse’. It is unclear if Teachings Blackout Kicks are affected by the ‘Courageous Impulse’ talent. I think it would be a really interesting Blackout Kick funnelling playstyle if it did, but would also understand it might be a bit much. Either way, the ‘Courageous Impulse’ Talent description should clarify if it just affects the first kick or all the teachings echoes that come after it.
  • Linked to this, without no Expel Harm, there is now a downtime in the rotation, and still the occasional time where generating 1 chi for less cost would be a better flow than waiting for another Tiger Palm. ‘Blackout Kick!’ when you take the ‘Energy Burst’ talent does sort of fulfil this niche, and being able to reliably generate them with 'Sequenced Strikes and then ‘Revolving Whirl’ makes them pretty consistent. However, the decision making around spending the free kick to get the chi or try and save up for a big burst of blackout kick teachings damage is influenced by the answer to the above point, so the talents need more explanation on how exactly that Courageous Impulse interacts with Teachings of the Monastery.
  • Jadefire Fists is a really good idea for button bloat, but it would almost never be taken due to wanting to funnel Fists of Fury damage into Jadefire Harmony. This could be resolved by making the first tick of Fists of fury proc the Jadefire Stomp, or happening simultaneously to get the value out of funnelling Fists of Fury into the damage debuff.

Conduit of the Celestials:

  • Theme is 10/10 no notes, I love it, its Marvel superhero levels of dumb 6-year old cool.
  • The visual and audio feedback of the four celestials isn’t equal. Yu’lon, denoted by the buff on the personal resource display and her flying above you is easily noticeable, her impact on your gameplay is also really satisfying. Niuzao equally, the Ox sound effect is clear loud and absolutely lets you know he has done something, the proc effect is a nice touch, same with the sound effect playing to represent the Fortifying Brew shield he gives, really cool. ChiJi, in the midst of all the other bits going in is much harder to recognise, I don’t think I have registered his visual or audio feedback at all while playing either spec. Xuen equally seemed totally non-existent. The only reason I know Xuen did anything is because he causes the Niuzao stuff. Obviously WW gets a lot of Xuen from its spec stuff, but MW does not. To address these, I wonder if a Xuen claw effect needs to come out of the player or something when Xuen procs to give you the instant feedback after Tiger Palm that something has happened. Equally with crane rush, perhaps a wave of cranes starting behind the monk would give you the instant feedback that ChiJi has procced, Considering ChiJi also comes with energy regen, its important that the effect is seen clearly to mark a change in gameplay.
  • I am slightly concerned that August Dynasty alone might sway Windwalkers into a Jadefire Stomp Build, and with the point above about the passive option not really working conceptually, it’ll add both Celestial Conduit and Jadefire as two extra buttons guaranteed to the rotation, which undoes a lot of the good work freeing up the rotation in the talent tree rework.

Master of Harmony:

  • This was the hero spec I was the least hyped for, but I REALLY like it. It is a simple, effective elevation of core monk fantasy.
  • I think Path of Resurgence should just include Chi Wave as well as Chi Burst. Brewmaster has been trying to get its button bloat down, and Chi Wave is already mentioned in ‘Maifestation’, so keeping the choice between Wave and Burst agnostic for the rest of the tree is good for player choice. In terms of its name, the ‘path’ can be metaphorical as well as literal :slight_smile: !
  • Overwhelming Force is so much larger and better thought out than it reads, might be good to clarify that the ‘line’ is really chunky and this is a meaningful upgrade to the kit.
  • The buff for Vitality isn’t clear how much vitality you have stored without either a weak aura tracking its value or hovering over it. It might be good to give it a colour gradient like stagger so players can see how much vitality they have stored more easily. If the vitality buff is red for example, then there isn’t much point releasing it at this time because there is low vitality stored, would be great for decision making in its gameplay. There are potential accessibility issues to this, so perhaps there is a better way to deliver this clarity, but its the clarity that is the important part to get more info to the player.

Mistweaver:

  • The talent tree rework is VERY good. Lots of incredible options and playstyles.
  • I am very concerned that the 4-set will be penalising to fistweaving, with the emphasis on casting vivify. If the set affected both Vivify and Rising Sun Kick that could potentially help keep options open.
  • I don’t miss Essence Font, but I do miss the bolts of mist that came out of Jadefire Stomp that were the Essence Font Bolts. Using Jadefire Stomp (and its resets) to deliver a little hot to my dungeon party was really cool, and had great interactions with Rising Mist. I think removing essence font is good, but removing its bolts from Jadefire removes some functionality and interactions that made that spell cool. It would also appease those who are sad at EF’s removal, by providing a bit of that gameplay still through Jadefire.
  • The mixture of Master of Harmony and Fistweaving is a bit challenging. ‘Endless Draught’ really incentivises taking Focused Thunder, which because of its positioning makes grabbing other elements of your fistweaving kit (everything below Jadefire but also Rising Mist and Legacy of Wisdom to make Shieluns worth it) is really difficult. From what I could work out you get left with a really unsatisfying choice of 2 points to allocate between Focused Thunder, Dance of Chi’Ji and Legacy of Wisdom, it feels bad to be missing one of these three. For Conduit of the Celestials not having Focused Thunder feels fine, and so the choice is made and it works.
  • ‘Deep Clarity’ again favours master of harmony, allowing you to get twice as many guaranteed Zen Pulses off from this talent when you have Endless Draught. I also found casting Vivify just to use the proc and not because I actually would have cast vivify otherwise to be a bit strange. I wonder if it might be better for the Zen Pulse to trigger from whichever spell consumes the Thunder Focus Tea Buff, keeping choice on how to use the tea and streamlining the use of the talent. The one downside of losing the Zen Pulse active is that without a damage meter its hard to feel its impact on your play. Maybe its because we have low crit, but seeing the effect and getting feedback that it is happening is a challenge.

Monk Class Tree:

  • Its an absolute gift, it is SO much better than the other one.
  • As Mistweaver, it would be good to have an incentive to take the statue, since the statues provide lots of high value for the other specs, and losing access to Black Ox Statue when it played a large part of Mistweaver value in M+ in DF (Ataldazar!) does suck, although its understandable. For this, I would propose a choice node in place of Jade Serpent Statue for Mistweaver. This would be a choice between the existing Jade Serpent Statue and a new ‘Red Crane Statue’, which channels soothing mist onto an injured ally (similar to the renewing mist or unison smart targeting) when you use Rising Sun Kick. This keeps the statue option and gameplay open in fistweaving scenarios, and also keeps windwalking open as a potential option in situations where you wouldn’t want Jade Serpent Statue.

Thanks for taking the time to read the feedback, have a great day!

5 Likes

Feedback for Mistweaver (trees, and both hero talent specs):

Class tree:
The changes are good across the board it doesn’t feel as impactful as I expected as a Mistweaver and new fun toys like “Lighter than air” feel quite clunky to use (at least on beta with latency) so in the end it just feels like the old talent tree with slightly less group support and slightly more personal buffs.

Mistweaver tree:
The changes are once again really solid, even more so than for the class tree. Refreshing jade wind and zen pulse being passive are interesting even though the loss of damage from zen pulse becoming purely a heal is very sad as it was one of the very few tools we had to increase our miserable damage output in dungeons. Overall the spec deserves to have a lot more throughput in terms of damage especially when druids or holy priests are allowed to do 2-3 times as much damage in any target count.

Conduit of the Celestials:
It sounds cool on paper, it doesn’t feel fun to use in practice. The problem is that none of the tree is particularly engaging to use. Xuen is very random, criminally undertuned at the moment and even if it was tuned properly it’s just one heal on one random target. At the moment the only good thing about Xuen is that it spawns Niu’zao.

Speaking of the yak, Niu’zao feels ok but having “only” 50% time cast reduction on Enveloping Mist feels really off as a fiswteaver in particular. It’s even more bizarre when talented into Tea of Plenty or Chi-Ji as all 3 talents can reduce the cast time of the same spell at the same time and all 3 buffs are consumed at the same time. To me this shouldn’t be the case and only one stack of one of the buffs should be consumed first, or they should be reworked to not overlap so much (for the record the Tea of Plenty/Chi-Ji buffs stacking have been heavily bugged since Tea of Plenty exist please look into it).

Yu’lon is cute on paper but it’s annoying to feel forced to spend 1-3 (depending on preferences) talent points into Shei’lun just for a fifth of the power of the hero spec. Also the cd reduction effect provided doesn’t feel impactful at all as a fistweaver? Rising sun kick is the most interesting spell to reduce but most of it is reduced through blackout kick procs anyway so the buff is essentially totally wasted. In the end only the reduction on Life Cocoon is truly impactful but still quite underwhelming.

Chi-Ji sounds good on paper and probably the most interactive of the 4 as a Mistweaver but I have yet to see it procs once. It never showed on details, I never saw it spawns or do its dance so who knows at this point.

The new ability Celestial Conduit is oddly enough the most satisfying part of the hero spec in the end for me but at the same time it feels completely unrelated from the spec as a whole. Why am I levitating Zenyata-like to heal and damage enemies? Who knows!? It’s a satisfying button to press for the heal, the damage seems as per usual with Mistweaver absolutely horrendous and quite insulting to be honest. Overall as much as I like to push this button it feels like it was meant for Master of harmony as it fits the theme a lot more and would make the hero talent spec more interesting.

Which it leads us to Master of Harmony:
I was particularly excited for this one and I ended up very confused, frustrated and sad about the fact that I was even playing Monk at this point. From thorough testing I concluded that the hero spec as a whole is heavily bugged and not currently working as intended.

Currently it stores vitality as it should (I heard some interactions are not working like Ancient Teachings but that’s beyond the point), hurray. But then everything falls apart. After pressing Thunder focus Tea (TFT) the power should start kicking in. It reads that for the next 10s healing spells and abilities draw from the stored vitality to add a HoT effect on targets to heal them for 25% of the healing done. So if I store let’s say 5 millions HP and I heal for 1 million one target then I should withdraw 250 thousands HP from the vitality pool to add a bulky HoT on the target, right?

Well that’s not at all how it currently works in implementation. Currently, it sneakily registered all targets that are healed at least once during the 10s window of activation of the talent. And at the end of that window, and only at the end, all targets healed receive the same HoT effect representing 25% of the vitality stored in the first place in the pool. I imagine this is not intended because it doesn’t do at all what is said on the tooltip and also because it promotes some very ridiculous gameplay and it can potentially be overpowered if used correctly (and simultaneously extremely bad in most scenarios). The goal with this version is to build a bulky vitality pool (as per usual) but then during the window to run into everybody with Refreshing Jade Wind to tag the entire raid to give them a massive HoT afterwards and basically maintain everybody alive by yourself.

The talent needs to work as it’s supposed to by only withdrawing the appropriate amount from the pool everytime a heal is cast (which is 25% of the heal effect, not of the total pool). The HoT needs to be able to stack with itself when applied otherwise the concept of withdrawing from a pool would never work. The tooltip needs to be a lot clearer about all of these interactions because currently this might be the most vague WoW skill description I’ve ever read if we are being honest (and I get it, it’s beta, tooltips are not the priority, it’s ok).

There are still some pretty big problems with the hero talent spec as a whole however. One is that it ends up being quite boring. In all honesty it feels like a glorified trinket or azerite power and not much more. We had a trinket that had a very similar effect a few expansions ago (I thinkl from Revendreth in Shadowlands, an anima vessel thingy). The fact that the whole mechanic is tied behind TFT use is super problematic because you are expected to use TFT almost everytime on cooldown as a Mistweaver as it’s the core of how to optimize your rotations and output as a whole. But now if you do as a Master of Harmony you destroy all the build-up of your vitality pool. This promotes a very weird playstyle where you intentionally hold on your vitality pool and not use TFT to prepare for some massive HoTs during heal windows which is going back to the very un-fun and silly playstyle of season 3-4 of DF with Soothing Mist. Granted, when the talent works as intended this will be less the case but it’s still conceptually working against the idea of spending charges of TFT as soon as available (even more so since the spec gives an additional charge of the tea and a few talents can vastly improve the effects of each charge by giving additional stacks and refreshing jade wind too).

The second issue is that everything is completely passive in the end. The only tiny gameplay interaction being that during a 10s window all of your healing apply a HoT. But even then, you have a chance that they intensify or are spread to other targets so even if you were to carefully control where you place your HoT chances are that they will bounce around on targets that barely need them and you will have some pretty stupid overheal numbers unless… yes you guessed it, unless you wait on your TFT charges and wait for big healing events. Which again, is working against Mistweaver’s playstyle.

Both hero specs feel visually quite cheap too which is frustrating as Mistweaver already doesn’t have much visuals to begin with since a lot of its actions are just fighting moves. Essence Font was the only neat looking thing we had and it’s gone. Jadefire Stomp is the only remnant of something that looks fun to use but that’s basically it. The 4 celestials could really use a new model and most of all new animations as they are stiff and cheap looking and they do feel like they are straight from Pandaria Remix (because they actually are …). Master of Harmony has some neat thing visually but since everything is so passive you are basically creating some lights at some moments and that’s about it. It’s not particularly exciting and again, many trinkets are doing much more exciting things. When a singular trinket feels more exciting to use than the entirety of a hero spec there is a serious issue with the hero spec in my opinion.

Weirdly enough I think both specs should swap their activation altogether (I have no idea what consequences it would have on Brewmaster and Windwalker).
It would make Master of Harmony so much more engaging if the vitality pool was entirely emptied during the Celestial Conduit active skill effect as it would serve as a proper big cooldown to pump out some massive heal (and damage potentially). Likewise, it would be really neat if the celestials were spawning as you use Thunder Focus Tea. I would even replace Thunder Focus Tea with a new Tea that does the effect of TFT but on top of that spawns a celestial depending on the next skill used so that you control which one you want to use, with each of the 4 providing a distinct effect. I think both hero specs would be a lot more engaging with that “”“simple”“” change. But obviously it would break both specs for Brew and Wind so I do realize it’s not an easy fix.

I do feel that Mistweaver is shafted in the hero specs and as per usual with Monk whenever a feature needs to have all 3 specs share powers it’s back to struggle town. Covenants were a huge mess for Monks all expansion, the Dragonflight class tree was an even bigger mess all expansion, we know the tune by now.

And while we are on the topic of Mistweavers drawing the short end of the stick. Please do not make the tier set buff Vivify in particular. I know it’s supposed to be a core skill used in any Mistweaver build but as a fistweaver you don’t exactly want to cast Vivify twice every single time a Renewing Mist/Enveloping Mist is out to maximize their effect. Ideally you cast it only when Vivifcation is up or when there’s a huge triage emergency situation but that’s it. If you want the set to work make it either interact with Gust of Mist procs since Rising Sun Kick is now capable of proccing it or simply copy the effects provided by Vivify to Rising Sun Kick as well (even if in that case the target is chosen at random).

Hey, I disagree with most of this but wanted to focus on one thing in particular - your breakdown of how Master of Harmony works.

What was your testing methodology? I found it was working mostly correctly. Your results would be consistent with healing with no damaged targets in range (MoH does not heal full health allies), and then the Purified Spirit effect proccing when the timer ran out and 0 Harmony had been used. Could this be what happened?

MoH does heal full health targets. You can go in town and blast heals on everyone during the 10s window and they will all get the HoT.

I have verified my assumptions simply by pumping roughly 1 million vitality points to make maths easier.

Then I procced the buff by using TFT followed by a single Vivify cast. I waited for the buff to go off (after 10s) and then I was receiving 250k health per proc of the HoT which is exactly 25% of health just like I describe above it works. I’ve tried then to do the same method and cast two vivify during the window to see if HoT would stack but no I would still get 250k health per proc of the HoT.

Which by the way I haven’t detailed but the HoT itself should pump 250k health in total but instead pumps out 250k per proc which is not logical whatsoever.

I did all that using combat logs to be sure that I was using game’s data and wasn’t mislead by buggy details shenanigans.

I also ran the talents in several dungeons and had very consistently less hps from the buff than from Healing Elixir which is absolutely hilarious because Healing Elixir is designed not to be a big HpS throughput source and purely a defensive mechanism.

And yes sometimes I had high hps with master of harmony when the entire group was dying horribly and it was doing ok. But still, it shouldn’t perform so horribly bad in all situations where the group isn’t about to wipe, not when it’s a passive effect and not a big cooldown you press.

I’ve ran more tests and it might be working better than I first found and I don’t know how I found bad results. It still doesn’t change the fact however that the playstyle is entirely passive, has no impact on the gameplay at all and is a glorified trinket though. (And the feedback of the buffs and the description of the effects are still lacking and or wrong).

Could you untalent Purified Spirit and check this again? I am 99% sure MoH does not heal full health targets, as of literally right now.

You are right it was the Purified Spirit node that got me confused, I forgot it was active as I was running with the other most of the time, my bad.

It might be working as intended indeed, maybe minus ancient teachings missing interactions as it was reported.

It’s still problematic as a fistweaver since you want to use TFT to reset Rising Sun Kick to both do damage and heal to build up your vitality stored. But that’s precisely what starts using your vitality stored. If there was one button it shouldn’t be tied to it’s TFT.

I feel the spec would flow a lot better if it was tied to something like Expel Harm that can be used mostly if not only to proc the effect. Or just make a new button altogether like for Celestial Conduit.

Hi all.
Some issues I have found training with dummies in Storwind and questions.
Windwalker Shado-Pan

  • 1/2 Tracking of Flurry Charges.
    According to the tooltip of Flurry Strikes, “… For each 400 energy you spend, unleash all Flurry Charges, dealing (50% of Attack Power) Physical damage per charge”. Well, although I can see the icon with the current number of Flurry Charges and their duration, I cannot find any of their dmg in the Combat Log. Furthermore, with no animation linked to the moment the Flurry Charges buff delivers the dmg, there is zero awareness that anything is about to or has happened at all.

  • 2/2 Tracking of Flurry Charges.
    It would be very useful to track the amount of energy required to reach the limit to unleash the current number of Flurry Charges, which is 400. Thus, it would be possible to plan some strategies in advance before Wisdom of the Wall (WotW) triggers. For example, I could pool a huge Blackout Kick (BK) buffed by 8 Teachings of Monastery charges, and then, if I know that the next WotW is within a few seconds, save the buffed BK in case WotW yields the crit buff. Dps and rotation-wise tracking the number of FC and the energy required to unleash FCs would be very impactful .

And that is all for now. I will update it if I find anything else.

Cheers!

Adding onto this - the Purified Spirit/Harmonic Gambit node I think is a huge bottleneck in making this tree fun, interesting, and strong. Harmonic Gambit is currently extremely weak - spending globals on damaging abilities uses a tiny amount of vitality for a tiny reward, and making wasting a huge amount of vitality inevitable.

Buffing this to the point where you could spend most or all of a full store of vitality on pure damage output would be VERY interesting. Maybe it could make each damaging ability consume 20-40% of your current store of vitality. This way it needs a good setup, and comes at the cost of a lot of healing from losing Purified Spirit, but can do serious damage when played around.

Hey, Hursti from the peak of serenity discord with the brand-new windwalker bugs and issues we should talk about. (I hope you guys have time for a good read)

Empowered Tiger Lightning (ETL)

Currently, ETL is a pretty big topic when it comes to bugs, it’s already heavily bugged in DF and surprise surprise … that hasn’t changed a bit for TWW alpha/beta. If we want to speak about ETL, we have to look at three different ETL windows seperately.

  1. ETL caused by only Invoke Xuen
  2. ETL caused by only Fury of Xuen (FoX)
  3. ETL caused while both of those Xuens are out

ETL 1 excludes only a few things:

  • Gale Force
  • Flurry Strikes (Shado Pan damage)
  • Summon White Tiger Statue
  • Damage done by non Invoke Xuen Xuens

ETL 2 excludes a lot of things:

  • Damage done by non FoX Xuens
  • Any damage from SEF Clones
  • Rising Sun Kick
  • Glory of the Dawn
  • Whirling Dragon Punch
  • Strike of the Windlord
  • Thunderfist
  • Galeforce
  • Teachings of the Monastery Blackout Kick Hits
  • any celestial guidance from Conduit of the Celestials
  • Flurry Strikes
  • Expel Harm
  • Summon White Tiger Statue
  • Dual Threat
  • Flurry of Xuen

ETL 3 behaves a bit interestingly. When the second Xuen spawns it clears the existing ETL cache. ETL while 2 Xuens are up is calculated by adding the damage sources that feed into ETL 1 and ETL 2. That causes some abilities to feed into the ETL hit twice while some other like Flurry Strikes don’t feed into it at all.

Flurry Strikes

Flurry Strike right now has multiple issues, but ill concentrate on a single part of those: What feeds into Flurry Charges and what does not.
Technically, the list for spells that actually feed into it is a lot shorter than the stuff that does not feed into it, but just for the fun I will list the sources that don’t feed into it.

  • any Xuen damage (both, Invoke and FoX)
  • ETL
  • any SEF damage (both, melee attacks and spells)
  • Rising Sun Kick
  • Glory of the Dawn
  • Whirling Dragon Punch
  • Strike of the Windlord
  • Thunderfist
  • Teachings of the Monastery Blackout Kicks
  • Flurry Strikes
  • Expel Harm
  • Summon White Tiger Statue
  • Dual Threat
  • Flurry of Xuen
  • Jadefire Stomp

Feedback

Please get rid of ETL as a system, it was really bugged for the entire last expansion, and currently it doesn’t look better. Another option would be to just change Fury of Xuen so instead of spawning a new weird Xuen it could just spawn the normal Invoke Xuen and if this is currently active already it could just increase its duration. Since most bugs we have with ETL exist primarly because of the different rules for FoX Xuen or the overlap of 2 active Xuens at the same time.

Flurry Charges should be entirely overhauled. Basing them on the max HP of the monk is a very weird way to include it, especially when raidbuffs like the one from Priests or short duration buffs like the evoker hp buff or the warrior shout are causing us to actively lose output. A better way would be based on Chi consumed or Combostrikes generated. This way, the generation of Flurry Charges would feel more natural and fitting to our spec. Obviously that causes issues for Brewmaster since they neither have Chi nor Combostrikes, but it could easily be based on brews consumed or Healthorbs generated.
Another change that would be healthy imho would be to get rid of tieing the flurry charge discharge to energy spending and instead make them discharge when you reach the cap of 10. This way, talents like Wisdom of the Wall or Against all Odds would make some sense at least.

I will likely post more feedback soon, but imho Jarrod and Jfunk did a very great job so far in the NA forum when it comes to giving good feedback.

Hello there, general feedback about my impression as a windwalker so far. I like the idea of having 2 talents tree with very different impact on gameplay. On one hand Conduit of the Celestials that has core impacts on gameplay and rotation, wich feels like enhancements to our pre-existing strenght. On the other hand, Shado-Pan, with wich we just follow the flow of our rotation and get aditionnal damage (even tho for now, with tuning and bugs it’s mostly irrelevant). Having this choice between playstyle feels nice as long as they’re both relevant in terms of pure numbers.

This combined with a very appreciated rework of the spec tree makes the WW spec more enjoyable than ever, with a gameplay that relies more on ressources managements (something that was a bit lost in my mind in the dragonflight iterations of the spec). The fact that there are energy-regen oriented nodes in both hero talent trees is a very good thing, i was a bit scared that early in the expansion we would need to pick both energy related talent in the spec tree, but i’ve found myself going without Inner Peace and not feeling really more starve than usual (even though it requires a bit more attention on not capping energy).
Overall the spec tree feels good, mostly because no gameplay feels bad (the only one i’ve not tried is the Last Emperor Capacitor). The amount of links between nodes makes it really easy to build a good path towards ability you want to use, and more importantly, the nodes attached to thoses (mostly WDP and JS) have a positive impact on gameplay.

More specifically on Conduit of the celestial, wich is my personnale favorite, i think the spell itself is cool enough but not astonishing, but the real deal about this tree lies in the heart of the jade serpent. This node is actually incredible to play around, and is the core of the tree in my mind. Trying to fit 2 or even 3 FoF cast during that window was really fun, and having control over it’s proc is the most important thing of all. When combined with clones + xuen + weapon of order, you get the same feeling of “every gcd counts” that we could have with serenity but with a ressource management side that was missing to that spell. I hope it stays this way, and is the thing we have to play around when selecting this Hero talent tree. The other celestials are cool even thought they have less impact on gameplay, but i really liked the Chi-Ji one for the better flow it gives to energy regen when taking Fury of Xuen + Restore Balance.

Cant really say much about shado-pan since it is balanced in a way that it’s kinda inexistant and the nodes that should have some impact on gameplay like WotW dont ever proc. The only thing that you can really feel is the cdr on clones. It allows on average a 2 clones usage between each xuen, wich might give more flexibility to it’s usage. Overall it allows a more slow-paced gameplay if you’re less a fan of burst window, wich i guess is the point. In terms of themes and visual i dont feel it at all on my screen.

If i’m really happy about the overall WW changes (not speaking about tuning or bugs), i cant say the same about the class tree, wich felt a bit disapointing. It’s definitly better than the previous one, but it doesnt shine that much. There is litteraly 0 nodes im very excited to take, or that would make my life easier in pve content, or be really funny (Lighter than air is fine, but rushing reflexes does not feel good). The range of the new transcendance node feels really low, especially when you compare it to waystone.

I also dont get why this tree is so much focused on speed kinda, like you have 4-5 nodes to snare ennemies or root them, and like 4 to make you less impacted by snares. I get that it might mostly be intended for pvp, but it’s really weird that there is so much focus on being speedy and reducing the speed of foes, but our raid buff still gives only 4% speed, altough we lost a 8% healing and 4% avoidance increase on party members and raiders. Theses buffs were horrible to take on the previous tree, dont get me wrong, but at least they brought some more use to having monks on a raid comp especially 2 or more, since the range of the buffs was 10 yards. So yeah, not a very exciting tree tbh, i’m just glad we got rid of the stuff that was annoying, and kept the good spells, but i dont see a huge improvement there.

I saw this pointed on the US forums as well. As a conduit of the celestials Mistweaver Monk I feel Strength of the black ox specifically needs some looking at. Right now, with the tiger palm hit from Awakened jadefire it procs quite often, too often. I feel my rotation is constantly interrupted because I feel required to hard cast enveloping mist.

As it stands, it procs on average every 6th vivify, or, every third tiger palm with awakened jadefire. I’d take making awakened jadefire unable to proc it, to balance the vivify and tiger palm proc rates. But it would also be nice if another, more melee oriented ability, can activate it as well, like Jadefire stomp. So you can have something that feels nice to press rotationally, or, if you don’t currently want/need to refresh your Jadefire stomp, you can still use enveloping mist to get the shield

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Feedback for Brewmaster.
I was really hoping for hero talents like “Drunken Master” to double down on the fantasy of the monk, that being said both hero talents still somewhat have a fantasy linked to monks.
So lets go into the two chosen for TWW.

Shado-Pan:
Flurry is missing a visual component. It needs some kind of “umpf” that other hero talents currently have. The fantasy of this hero talent is just non existent in its current form.
As of right now it needs a WA to track both energy consumption and number of stacks.
Without addons this hero talent is simply gonna be confusing and difficult to track.
I would highly recommend making this an active abilitiy rather than a passive just going off when its not needed. It feels horrible to gate your energy consumption to get any value out of the flurry stacks.
An example could be to make it a visual similar to Fist of Fury or Killing Spree.

Master of Harmony:
The big issue with this hero talent is the generation of vitality. Right now the most generation is made through spamming Purifying Brew. This feels akward most of the time because you are now using it on CD to generate vitality. This greatly reduces the value of Purifying Brew and makes for a wierd gameplay experience with little to no thought about the usage of Purifying Brew. I would recommend shifting vitality generation to a other ability in order to give more defensive/meaningful agency to players.

Brewmaster talents:
The new talent “Ox Stance” is a big downgrade from “Bonedust Brew”.
It’s boring and have no effect on gameplay. Other than just being a passive increasing stagger generation. It has little to no interaction with gameplay.
I think players would love to see more meaningful choices at the bottom talent row for Brewmaster that are more interactive with how the brewmaster plays and feels.
Talents that double down on the fantasy seems to be the way to go.

Examples could be;
The gem from MoP Remix “Invoke Niuzao” Becoming a conduit for Niuzao and stomp enemies.
“Storm, earth and fire” Bascially does the same thing as Bonedust Brew replicating attacks.
“Mirror Image/Creating Illusions” that duplicates the monk confusing the enemy.
“Drunken master” Drinking brews would make the brewmaster become more difficult to hit or make reckless attacks.
“Chi infusion/harmony” Generate chi during combat that has some effect at the end; explosion, infusion of the fists/weapon etc.

Unfortunately after a bunch of testing, I think this applies to the Chi Harmony rework, which has 2 seperate issues now:

  1. It is difficult to see at a glance which Renewing Mists have the 50% healing bonus active and which don’t, due to the similarity of the icons
  2. It is practically impossible to see the remaining duration of the 50% bonus, which affects several important decisions when healing in all types of content

I really recommend reverting this. The original goal of reducing the amount of buffs to track I don’t think was ever a real issue, and has already been reduced with the removal of essence font.

On top of that our 4pc gives us a ton of free Keg Smashes those don’t count towards the 400 energy spent.

Lets talk about that 400 energy spent. The counter starts when you log in, it does not reset with combat. I can log in, keg smash a target dummy 9 times, drop combat, wait for all flurry charges to drop. Now the hidden counter is at 360 energy spent, If I run to the target dummy use touch of death to guarantee a charge and press keg smash it will discharge. This discharge happens when that hidden counter rolls over 400 regardless of you having a flurry charge or not. This is problematic because lets say you finish combat on 200 energy spent, you go into the next pull. If you don’t manage to generate a charge by the time you spend the next 200 energy the trigger will happen but no flurry strikes because you did not have have any charges yet, next time the trigger happen will be at the next 400 mark, which is now 600 since the combat started. This makes the whole ability super inconsistent, impossible to track and rely on.

Last thing no ability that you can spend energy with outside of combat count towards the 400 cap. These abilities don’t contribute at all regardless if you are in combat or not.

Abilities I tested and not working: Vivify, Detox, Expel Harm, Spining Crane Kick

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Haven’t had much time this week, but what I can gauge so far with WW

  1. Having Expel Harm baked into Tiger Palm feels incredibly lacklustre alongside our mastery. Tiger Palm is our only Chi generator now (CB Chi generation removed, Expel Harm gone), and the baked Expel Harm proc doesn’t offer an additional Chi.

After whacking a dummy for a bit, you start to notice there’s quite a lot of downtime. Would be nice to have another ability that could generate Chi again, or make it so the Expel Harm proc offers an additional Chi as if casting both abilities on the same GCD.

  1. Serenity Removed; I was never a fan of SEF so this may be biased, but locking Monks into picking very unreliable, CC’able clones that do 2/3 of your damage doesn’t feel great. Either rework them so that they are only CC’d when the Monk is, or give us the option to play Serenity again.

  2. Double Jump Dash; great addition in theory, just feels clunky to use. Perhaps a different way to trigger it (Hold Spacebar? Change Roll button to Dash when Monk is in air?)

  3. Thematics; Love the way COTC looks. RJW with Thunderfury/Xuen feels like a bigger burst and makes the ability feel stronger. However, there is a bit of sloppiness imo. Xuen proccing on Tiger Palm seems lazily done: him popping out to do one swipe and disappear looks hilarious to me. Make the animation look like Druids Bash, where Xuen’s spirit pops out of the Monk to deal the swipe damage.

  4. CJL; Make this move while casting or 2 charges that instant fire off a zap of lightning, this ability is a relic that needs to be changed

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Expel harm should really just be a choice node between active and passive, I dont see the downside in giving this choice to us.

This needs to happen for both ww and brew.

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Hell, please just no.
Getting rid of Niuzao as a foced Talent is probably the single best change made across all 39 Specs.
Angry Dave does literally 0 DMG without all of it’s (Shadowlands) Talents (and, even then, is worse compared to the 4 different Talent-Notes), does nothing for our Aggro and instead often causes Thread-Problems on newly spawned Adds because of it’s own Thread-AMP.
As comparison (we both did almost the same absolute-Damage): Niuzao, used on Cooldown, from our Main Brewmaster did a whooping 1% of his overall Damage on Mythic Raszageth as a freaking 3-Min-Cooldown. My Bloodworms, fully passive and bursting for HEALING and despawning whenever i drop below 50% did almost 2.5% of my Overall Damage while being fully passive.
Niuzao was, is and will always be a Joke and getting rid of him is mandatory.

Because SEF as WW is bugfree, works like a Charm and never fails? Yeha…No.
Getting rid of Bonedust is also highly welcomed. Sure, it can do a lot of damage, if: You get procs from the passive like Crazy, always crit during it’s uptime and never have to Stopdmg/Targetswap during it’s duration.
But even with all of this: It’s still a cookie-cutter you press on CD without any visble effect nor direct damage on the GCD.

Such a Telent already exists. You get 15% Dodge after Drinking any Brew.

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