Feedback: Rogues

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Rogues in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

Here is my feedback for Assassination rogue with the Deathstalker hero talent:

This is the talent tree spec I’ve been using: CMQAam+v0FpP80IqJo3aSeC38y8AzMMzMYAAAAAAYWmxsMDAAAAAAttMzMMMYmZWmlZmZm5BGMzMzMGbWGzAsZ2GwAWCWGmADLD

  • For the most part the changes are too passive for me, I think a new thematic ability would have been a nice to have.

  • First and most glaring issue I have with the Hero Talent is management of the Deathstalker’s Mark. Conceptually I think its fine I guess, however adding a key talent feature which is essentially another buff icon into an already busy set of buffs to track and line up for competitive damage (garrote, rupture, slice and dice) is shifting into multi-buff management overload. I did find it quite difficult using the default UI to keep a track of this alongside everything else, so having something like this which realistically you’re going to need a WeakAura for is sub-standard design really. I’d like to play my class optimally without the need for addons if possible.

  • The interplay of Envenom consuming this does fit in fine with the attack rotation, however I think that the timer of Deathstalker’s Mark is waaaay to short. In testing I basically had to blast through skills to get my combo points up to then Envenom so I can take advantage of the Plague debuff (this is with 300 max energy). This then means that I’m well outside the Sanguine Blades benefit and am having to spam Thistle Tea. If I didn’t do this then Deathstalker’s Mark would simply drop off with charges remaining, and also when this happens you cannot renew it using a full combo Envenom because you didn’t consume the last charge. If we’re stuck with Deathstalker’s Mark, then my recommendation would be to either double the timer, or just remove the timer all together, I simply don’t see what its bringing to the table.

  • I like the extra charge of Vanish with Without A Trace, it goes some way into mitigating the availability of stealth.

  • I still cant quite comprehend why Slice and Dice isn’t just a baseline rogue feature, enough has already been said about the requirement to keep this up, so I wont say anymore.

Possible Bug / Over tuned requirement

  • During the main testing around Deathstalker’s Mark, I really found it difficult to have it renew once the final stack was consumed. I think out of multiple tries on the training dummy, I’ve only achieved a successful renewal using a fully combo point Envenom ONCE. Not sure if its a bug or just too onerous a task to do, but it seems like unless you very specifically do a full combo Envenom as the very next thing you do then it doesn’t renew. Which would then cost you a charge of Vanish, assuming you have one. This though is quite symptomatic of it simply dropping off with the timer before I can consume its last charge.


experienced rogue playing only this character since 2004 (yes I’m fairly old). I will update the same post in the future

In War Within i specced outlaw trickster as it seems like the only playable spec

First issue:
More RNG windows, More things to track to max dps, the dps output is far from other classes, the Ace should be revert at once.

Second issue:
You are providing more RNG windows more things to track but NO WAY to track them. This is the first game that developers seem to be clueless of what they are actually programming. There is 0 chance someone to keep in track all those things WITHOUT 3rd party addons. It is really strange how a 20 year old software does not provide the tools needed so the user can perform the actions the developers have programmed

Third issue:
You will need to provide free keyboards to Outlaw Tricksters as to do all these (if we manage) with the GCD that you have everywhere, we will need to break the keys from pressing them.

One principle you should listen and serve: classes with 3 dps specs should be able to perform with all 3 specs a) equivalent output of dps b) both single and multi target 3) they should be sitting always 2-3% ahead of classes that have multiple specs (tank/heal/dps combos)

By adding the hero classes you have done the following: a) every PATCH (after Wrath) you are favoring always some spec of every class (very wrong lets see how many years you will be doing this) so now you will do THE SAME BUT IN ADDITION b) you will be favoring also a HERO SPEC!!!

Gents, this is crazy and you are on the wrong path. I doubt you will be prepared (ONCE MORE) to release this expac in August. At least in Rogues the result is disappointing. I will of course play more (just trying to figure how the hell i can track everything with 0 addons) and also spec Sub right after so ill keep this updated.

Please do NOT release an unfinished product again and please do not kill us with patches that NERF everything right after while we play the game. -also never figured why you need to nerf classes while you can just buff the underperforming ones…Why not people to have fun with their chars and be forced always into the gameplay style some dev who doesnt play that class dictates?


the hero talents leave a lot to be desired, but the worst part so far is the removal of acrobatik strikes.
Outlaw feels unplayable
Sublety works without it
Assassination especially in Aoe Situtations really suffers feels clunky with the short ranges


Rogue player since vanilla here.

Played Outlaw - Fatebound in beta and the energy regeneration and secondary stat squishing is concerning and cripples the flow of the Outlaw rogue a lot compared to retail.

Fatebound tree can be considered fully passive as it doesn’t effect the rotation much, however, energy regeneration and the nerf to Pistol Shot combo point generation from Dragonflight S1 is concerning and makes the rotation crippled.

An Outlaw rogue shouldn’t have a hard time reducing the CD of talents like Blade Flurry or shouldn’t have to wait for energy regen to be able to cast ambush using (Hidden Opportunity or) any build. Having lost the additional Roll the Bones buff from Dragonflight S3 set bonus also seems to contribute to this situation.

Either provide Outlaw rogues a third Roll the Bones buff similar to the situation on retail right now, or increase our energy regen so that we can have the same flow we have on retail right now. Otherwise, TWW rotation would feel really clunky. I only realized this after switching to the “These Go to Eleven” server and using the new items.

Also, having hero talents a bit more meaningful than plain damage boost gimmicks would be nice, however I am personally not in favor of using non-combat talents such as Distract to have combat damage boosts.

If the rotation stays this clunky, I’m afraid I won’t be playing the new expansion as Outlaw rogue is the only class I enjoy due to its fast paced game play, and flow.

I would have expected a better job from Blizzard.


Outlaw Rogue here.

Why no love for Rogues too?

Current state of Outlaw on beta right now is disappointing, and seeing the labour of love that the other special classes (mage, hunters, warriors, paladins, etc) have been getting with their talents, and hero trees, this initially got me really hyped up for what was to come for Outlaw rogues. However since the debut of both Trickster and Fatebound, its really worrying regarding the huge void of inspiration that’s prevalent when looking at the rogue hero trees and design choices so far. Fatebound with its amazingly sleepy capstone design, trickster with its janky gcd lockouts when pressing Coup empowered Dispatch, and I don’t think I need to go into detail with how sad deadstalker is looking right now.


I encourage the combat design devs to log on again and give Outlaw rogue a proper play-test to get a good feel of the cadence of the spec for themselves, as either Trickster or Fatebound. I’m not sure if high variance is the objective for Outlaw Rogue gameplay for TWW expansion but I think it needs to be addressed as the recent changes of peeling back the resources we had in DF, but keeping the very low proc rates for sinister strike and HO, since it no longer has the artificial band-aid it had from the tier set giving 10% proc chance during season 3 DF, is crippling the fun out of the spec. You can feel this when you play for long periods of time (raiding/dungeons) when your damage wildly varies from being extremely low, slow and dry, and occasionally when you are a bit lucky, it feels a little bit fun…
But its really not fun being at the mercy of 40%+ variance due to the design of the spec revolving around being lucky to do damage or have fun. Playing during the low roll and dry moments is really painful, trust me, log on and see for yourselves.

Kiling Spree, forced loss of control and amazing camera features

I’m sure you are aware of the accessibility issues behind the current design of Killing Spree, I don’t think its a fantastic ability to be using, especially when it creates really jarring and wonky camera effects as you teleport around multiple times over the course of 1-3 seconds around Azeroth. Depending on haste too, its even worse when the terrain around you forces your camera to nose dive into the ground in AOE situations. Also with the current design of Killing Spree being available to use every 25ish seconds, its not really fun having to worry about if the game is going to throw you into a beam of death or other lethal effects and frontals because the Killing Spree teleporting feature is literally trolling us for some great gif meme content. I think Killing Spree feels like it can actually be fun, but not with this current iteration of forced loss of control and absolute camera motion sickness inducing madness.

Is it possible to move away from the forced loss of control? Give Killing Spree perhaps a blend of our cool abilities such as using our pistol, so Killing Spree could be a sequence of attacks (as it is now already), but without the awful loss of control, tank frontal loving, death puddle dipping, beam kissing madness it is now. Something simple like changing it to do multiple ranged attacks back to back (10-15yard range?) instead of the teleported melee attacks, and this would help resolve the accessibility issues regarding the screen flashing camera shaking pandemonium problem, and of course increase fun by ensuring we don’t accidentally end up in some lava bath through loss of control. Other abilities such as blade dance, bladestorm and fist of fury give off similar vibes without forcing the user to die or experience bifrost teleportation through several realms to execute their series of attacks. Anyhow Killing Spree does decent damage and it does feels satisfying to press for damage, only as long as I have my eyes closed for the duration :slight_smile:

Here’s an example of the buggy mess you can expect to see from Killing Spree due to its out-of-date interactions:

Regarding the above clip example, I think changing how the attacks are performed to ranged attacks (using pistol pew pew) will be the greatest migraine medicine for the devs if they have to try and figure out a way to ensure this kind of clipping doesn’t occur in environments throughout TWW content.

Trickster or Lockoutster

Although Trickster has seen some improvement over the past week with additional plasters put on some of the tooltips and the move away from feint, I’m really intrigued to hear about the reasons for your design choices to make our capstone ‘Coup de grace’ have a really awkward and unexplained animation lockout for 2 seconds, when outlaw can have a GCD of 0.8-1seconds? Its really strange and unnecessary so I’m kinda assuming this is just down to a poorly implemented, rough function thats still WIP.

Fatebound Bay Sands

And for the casino coin flip spec (animation wise, its really boring, you see a tiny coin fall out of my pocket every finisher, I’m really worried I’ll have no gold left in my bags by the end of the raid), the capstone is really void of any life. I understand that its difficult to make really cool interactions without over-complicating the gameplay, but this is just really uninspiring and as someone who wants to be rewarded for a bit of luck, especially from our premier capstone talent which I think should be exciting to unlock (getting 7 same flips back to back to get a 1% all stats, stat stick is erm… fun? nah). I think the stat stick treatment could be something else (I have so many ideas but I know we’ll never have a say regarding class design), and importantly it has really bad interactions in many scenarios where you will have a bit of downtime or lose combat frequently, such as dungeons (M+). The 15 second duration after combat ends should see an increase in duration, so that we aren’t penalised if we have to wait for the healer to have a cup of peppermint tea or if the tank needs to itch their bum before they hold W again to go to the next pack. You’ll see me popping evasion and pulling trash mobs to keep the buff up so if anyone reports me for pulling for the tank, feel free to blame yourselves for forcing me to keep my buff uptime!

I have one positive thing to say, Destiny Defined is a good hero talent, as it reduces variance, makes the spec more fun to play overall, even if its just a tiny bit more consistent, which is always enjoyable. If you can make more examples of these variance mitigating talents in hero trees or please consider restoring more consistency back into our Outlaw tree too. For HO I think it’ll be more fun if you restore the proc rate back to normal, but reduce the damage of the Ambush gained from HO to compensate, having fun and consistent feedback from gameplay is much more fun than having casino style rng dependent windows of damage. Praying for a high roll and begging to not get mediocre or low rolls is really frustrating to play with, especially when the variance is really high right now.

Acrobatic Strikes

Like why… Just close your eyes, imagine just enjoying yourself, smile on your face playing Outlaw rogue that has a fast pace and dynamic rotation, with high APM but also super fun. Next day you log on to continue the fun and BAM, suddenly your arms were decapitated in half and now you have to worry about not getting spammed by the error ‘out of range’. Having short arms like a T-Rex (they are extinct btw for a reason) is very inconsistent for gameplay now, and is quite wildly frustrating especially as the spec that is heavily punished for any downtime especially during AR windows. Additionally the hitboxes are still very inconsistent, and the real Acrobatic Strikes (3+ yard range acro, not this fake short bad built butch arms auto attack damage acro) was a nice QoL fix for the poor hitbox implementation on many targets throughout the past few expansions. Anytime we lose the ability to maintain our rolling CDR, we fall behind significantly. We don’t have any dots or meaningful damage sources or static damage cooldowns or big burst to mitigate downtime, as we specialise in sustaining flat damage, so we suffer massively when we have our forearms cut off and now we attack with almost half the range we previously did, and fall massively behind the big bursters specs/classes. Please just reconsider giving us some form of mitigation for our high uptime requirement due to our fast-pace, high APM, GCD rolling intense combat design. I had the luxury of playing with a BM hunter recently, who’s pets share the same range as my deformed short armed dwarf, and I couldn’t even see myself while being surrounded by a bunch of frothing clefthoof bulls and bloody flamingos swarmed around the target enlarged by bestial wrath and the absolute cluster bunga of bodies I have to try and find my stumpy character inside to make sure I can sense/feel the range of my melee and not going out of range accidently due to hitbox weirdness.

Would love to read the dev team’s thoughts regarding the design choices made so far:

I’m excited to see the next big blue text post for rogues that’ll hopefully explain many of the developer team’s design philosophies, I think it’ll be great to get clarification from the combat design devs about their vision for Outlaw and the rogue hero trees, and the reasons for all the designs implemented so far. And as always, looking forward to the next iteration of changes to make rogues (mostly just Outlaw) smile again next week :slight_smile:


  • Please improve Killing Spree (not damage wise, its fine, but remove the awful interactions), maybe make the series of attacks ranged using our pistol, rather than teleporting melee attacks.

  • Consider bringing real Acrobatic Strikes back, or consider giving us more mitigations for our unique high reliance on sustained dps resulting from GCD rolling CDR style gameplay.

  • More talents like Destiny Defined, and restoring proc chance of HO back to 100% of SS and reduce ambush damage through damage tuning instead to compensate is better and more fun.

  • Please do more to mitigate the high damage variance, its no fun doing significantly less damage because of a bit of bad luck and out of our control rng. Consider re-using some of the band-aids you’ve given to us in our tier sets, particularly the one where you nerfed our SS proc chance, and then gave it back to us as a 2set tier piece :rofl:

  • Not everything is negative, some really good changes were made such as double vanish on the class tree and the removal of shadow dance, Destiny Defined (please give more variance busting talents!!!), Unseen Blade, Disorienting Strikes and Nimble Flurry are great too, love them.

  • Some actual love for rogues please! Otherwise we might become extinct like T-Rexes did :frowning:


Hi, everyone.

My feedback is mainly on Assasination and Deathstalker since I play that most of the time.

  1. Serrated Bonespikes:
    I really like what you’ve done with this. But I think you can remove the infinite duration on the DoT since we have to reapply Rupture anyways and not getting it removed from mobs in special encounters can lead to problems like CC breaks or not getting back to stealth.

  2. Improved Garrote:
    As much as i like the concept of Stealth improving abilities as rogue class fantasy its diffcult to play with in long encounters and environments of constant chain-pulling.
    I often struggle with getting back to stealth what reduces my dmg output / not improving it. even more worse with Indiscriminate Carnage. It feels like being forced to play Nightelf and spec into Vanish since we not having Shadowdance anymore. and i remember Vanish as emergency exit from combat and not to push dps.

  3. Indisciminate Carnage:
    Like in 2. … I feel spreading DoTs should not be part of trying hard to get back to stealth.
    We could connect that to maybe using a 6 sec window after Cimson Tempest (which should be core ability in my opinion)

  4. Nature Damage:
    Since Caustic Spatter I feel forced to spec in most Nature Damage i can get to spread it in Aoe situations (Beta shows trinkets make that even more overpowered). Which leads to Kingsbane which is a huge part of that Damage after Envenom.

  5. Kingsbane :
    I like it as cooldown that puts massive Damage when you play it right, but thats the problem. The mechanic forces you to stay at that target and get it high on stacks leaving you with no chance to refresh DoTs on other mobs and making situations where you need to kill enemies at same time complicated. And its worthless in Situations when you have no long living mobs where other classes sniping your KB target.

  6. Caustic Spatter:
    Like I already mentioned stacking nature damage to push AoE DPS is a problem in single target encounters where you have no profit of Caustic Spatter but other talents and gear would have done more and I know there are many classes with single target and AoE specs but as Assasination that DPS gap is huge compared to them.

  7. Energy regeneration:
    Short said: in single target it’s to less in AoE your capping fast.
    you could higher base reg and lower the amount we get from Venemous Wounds.
    Double or Tripple the amount of Dashing Scroundrel.
    This could fix the need of Blindside in singletarget.

  8. Deathstalker hero talents
    Deathstalkers Mark concept is Okay. I understand it. But I don’t feel it.
    We need to remove that Ambush apply thing from stealth. why not simply apllying it with every full CP Envenom/Evis for both specs Assa and Sub. while you attack a target with no Deathstalkers mark on so you can mark targets easy on target switches still gain no profit if you not focus on one target and remove that function from Darkest Night only keep the Improved Finisher after consuming the 2 charges. So we have a rolling on mark target concept without being forced to use stealth and Vanish and waste 1 Garrote for Ambush. This could even fix the overstacked marks of Sub rogue.

So finally I say I hope for better and maybe a little more cool Visuals (cought warlock changes)


Im going to focus on subtlety for this one.

I really feel like this one have potential but its not quite there yet.
In single target my biggest issue with this is the randomness of the unseen blade proc, this is exacerbated by the Disorienting Strikes talent not working properly and lack of any visual indication on when unseen blade is ready again. It is in general a feels bad moment when a fair amount of Coup de Grace cast happens outside Dance windows.

The weird gcd self silencing part of Coup de Grace is also a bit annoying even though its now only 1 second. It messes with spellqueuing and in general just feels clunky.

At the moment trickster does not work in AoE, activating Unseen Blade and proccing Coup de Grace both require single target abilities. Nimble Flurry kinda tries to mitigate this problem by making ST abilities hit AoE. However activating Nimble flurry require the use of a single target ability, that does not flurry, and you have no clue when that single target ability is ready to proc Unseen Blade. This lead to basically ingoring the tree in AoE scenarios. A fix could be having Shuriken storm be able to proc Unseen blade as well.

Where to start with this one. In St it is still close to impossible to proc the capstone, even after changing mark application from 3 to 2. In general in ST the whole tree is very unremarkable. It has no real visual effect. A lot of its damage is in an autoattack node which i personally dont think is great and probably also increase reliance on Windfury totem.

In AoE however the feel of the tree changes from unnoticed to akward since now i go from never proccing capstone to doing it close to every 2nd finisher (granted there is a bug that removes a stack shortly after applying stacks?). This frequent proccing of capstone lead to very weird AoE gameplay where i have to eviscerate ever second finisher (third finisher without bugs) which feels kinda akward. Maybe this is fine or maybe we just ignore the mark in large enough pulls? I am not really sure why both Hero trees are so reluctant to work with our aoe, at least Deathstalker have a node that buffs rupture and node that buffs shuriken storm and black powder. All in all it is just a weird tree. I really dont understand what it is trying to do with the marks.
A suggestion i have for the marks could be making the mark not be stackable and just be on the last enemy you hit with an single target builder, and the capstone could just trigger whenever you have hit a target with the mark with a damaging finisher 3 times. This could make it a lot more consistent.

Spec Tree:
The spec tree is in a weird situation at the moment. Many of the talents are very low impact and in general feels out of place. I will not go in depth with this since i feel like a lot of feedback has already be given on this.
This aside, what i feel the spec tree is sorely missing is some AoE talents. There is in total 3 talents in total that only does something with aoe; Improved Shuriken Storm, Silent Storm (Which is 100% dead because of placement), and Shuriken Tornado.
It could be argued Replicating shadows aswell, but it also do buff Rupture in ST, albeit not that much. Since Improved Shuriken Storm is basically guaranteed, going from St to AoE spec is changing two talents to Replicating shadows and shuriken tornado. This feels not ideal and could be something that can be looked into.
Also please kill Sepsis thanks.

1 Like

The feedback question focuses on refinements of the hero talent tree. While covering all three trees, my focus will be mostly on Subtlety given that’s the specialization I am the most proficient in.

General Notice
There are currently a lot of bugs on beta, feedback will be directed at
gameplay of Talent nodes.

Trickster Hero Talents
The core nodes are focused on single-target damage, creating a tree highly dependent on Nimble Flurry for Cleave/AoE.

  • Unseen Blade / Fazed - There are several issues with Unseen blades and Fazed/Distracted as a core mechanism:
    1. Unseen blade only works with single target abilities. The cantrip node only triggers from Backstab/Shadowstrike and the capstone works with Eviscerate.
    2. Tooltips suggest the existence of a Fazed and Distracted, it would be welcome to stick to one notation.
    3. Thousand Cut being a random chance on auto attacks is not ideal, a more controllable activation mechanism would be welcome.
    4. Flickerstrike incentivizes taking damage, creating unconventional(bad) gameplay elements.
    5. Secret techniques and tab targeting are the only ways to apply fazed to multiple targets in cleave situations.
  • So Tricky - Has little practical use, making it a very niche talent.
  • Nimble Flurry - The spread damage needs tuning. The talent also conflicts with Subtleties combat design because it actively discourages the use of AoE builder and finisher (this could be intentional).

Deathstalker Hero Talents
The core concept of the tree only works with Assassination and the amount of spell effects the tree spawns creates serious performance concerns.

  • Deathstalkers Mark - There are several issues with Deathstalker’s Mark
    1. Application/Trigger: Consuming all stacks of Mark is still difficult, while the change to 2 stacks slightly reduces this problem we still trigger the capstone rarely.
    2. Maintaining Deathstalker’s mark in AoE is inconvenient, it requires precise juggling between Shadowstrike, Shuriken Storm, Eviscerate, and Black Powder.
    3. Targets dying is a big concern, dying does not trigger the capstone node - this gives Assassination with a lower frequency of stealth a potentially long time without any benefit.
    4. The capstone requires maximum combo points, its unclear why this requirement is needed.
  • Singular Focus - The node does not work with Secret Techniques clone attacks, lowering effectiveness. It conflicts with Subtleties Finisher design too, using Eviscerate is a more efficient way to generate priority target damage if desired. Tuning is fairly low with 3%.
  • Clear the Witnesses - Makes using Shuriken Storm during Shadow Dance an option on single target. While this lowers the potential amount of Deathstalkers mark, it isn’t intuitive gameplay.
  • Hunt Them Down - Adds the requirement of Macros for Rupture to not lose damage.
  • Flensing Knives - Focuses on adding damage to Backstab. Backstab, unlike Mutilate is mainly used outside of cooldowns and in general optimized to be used as little as possible.
  • Damage Profile - The damage profile is fairly flat, most nodes are passive damage often outside of high damage phases. Some nodes like Corrupt the Blood add unnecessary ramp-up time. It is unclear why this damage profile was chosen on specializations focused on bursty output patterns.

Both talent trees still have bugs to them making them difficult to test.
Trickster is, once bugs are fixed the more complete tree of the two mentioned.
Deathstalker is in dire need of attention, the current iteration is unappealing.

To augment the Hero talent post, i compiled a possibly incomplete list of bugs.

Trickster Talent Bugs

  • Coup de Grace - Does not work with Anima-charged combo points.
  • Coup de Grace - Does not interact correctly with Shadowed Finishers.
  • Coup de Grace - Sometimes does no damage.
  • Coup de Grace - Has a 1-second GCD lock.
  • Devius Decisions - Does not work.
  • Disorienting Strikes - Works ONLY if you have the cooldown for unseen blade up.

Deathstalker Talent Bugs

  • Clear the Witness - Shadow Damage part is missing.
  • Corrupt the Blood - Resets Stacks when refreshing Rupture.
  • Darkest Night - Reduces damage done instead of increases.
  • Darkest Night - Your next combo builder after the proc consumes one Deathstalker’s Mark.
  • Darkest Night - Does not consider anima-charged combo points as “max combo points”.
  • Plage Damage - Does not benefit from Deeper Daggers, Veiltouched or Dark Brew.
  • Singular Focus - Does not work with Secret techniques Clone attacks (possibly intentional).

Rogue Talent Bugs

  • Premeditation - Does not work with Shiv, Shuriken Toss, Shuriken Storm and Sepsis.

There is still a backlog of around 20 likely not fixed bugs from Dragonflight - Bug tracker - Subtlety Rogue


The remaining posts will go into more detail about gameplay and design problems.

The tragedy around Stealth
All three specs have Stealth as part of their combat design but there are a lot of inconsistencies.
For start, there are two types of stealth:

  • Real Stealth - Players can enter real Stealth outside of combat. Vanish applies a variation of it called Improved Vanish, which after expiring changes to Real Stealth.
  • Talents allowing access to stealth abilities - Shadow dance, Subterfuge, Sepsis, and Shadowmeld all allow you to access stealth abilities while not counting as Stealth.
    Talents usually consider this and mention Shadow Dance specifically.

This for me makes the baseline assumption of:

  1. Stealthed - Only applies when real Stealth is active
  2. Benefits of Stealth - Includes benefits from Steath/Stealthed.
  3. From Stealth/After breaking Stealth - Refers to real Stealth.


  • Outlaw: UUH, Take 'em by Surprise, and Crackshot - The effects work during both Stealth and Subterfuge, consistent with the definition.
  • Assassination: Master Assassin - Is not active during Subterfuge. Shrouded Suffocation - Is active during Improved Garrote, which shouldn’t be the case.
  • Subtlety: Shadowstrike does not get stealthed benefits during Subterfuge/Shadow Dance. Premediation buff drops during Subterfuge. Sepsis stealth gives stealthed benefits to Shadowstrike.
  • General: (new) Shadowheart is only active during real stealth and not Subterfuge/Shadow Dance (giving players little reason to ever talent into it)

I did not list all talents. This list can be considered incomplete as a result.

Additionally, there are many things that break real Stealth, mostly item effects and the talent Subterfuge changes Stealth’s behavior.

Why is this important?
One reason is how intuitive the game is. As a player I expect things to be consistent. Exceptions only make sense if done for the health of gameplay.
The main reason however is talent and talent tree design.

TWW alpha/beta removed Shadow Dance from the general tree and supplemented it with Vanish/Subterfuge, this works on Outlaw but not so well on Assassination/Subtlety.

The problem of Assassination:
Subterfuge does (almost) nothing for Assassination. This is a result of talent design. Improved Garrote already covers the full duration of (two points of) Subterfuge and Shrouded Suffocation works during Improved Garrote. The same applies to Indiscriminate Carnage.
Master Assassion’s length is also not extended during Subterfuge. This removes all reasons to pick the talent.
The second Vanish charge’s power can not overcome this problem because Vanish already naturally aligns with Deathmark leaving less surface for efficient use.

The problems of Subtlety:
Stealth benefits from Shadowstrike not working during Shadow Dance seem justified. The extended range on Shadowstrike can lead to unexpected teleports making range weakauras important to avoid surprise teleports.
Sepsis getting the stealth benefits not so. Sepsis only allows you to use a stealth ability without any connection to stealth. The effect triggers two times in addition to this.
Premeditation design is also discussable. It isn’t immediately obvious why the premeditation buff is only active during Stealth and Shadow Dance and not during Subterfuge.
I would go further and argue there is no reason the buff fades away once Stealth drops.

While the problems of Assassination seem fixable by either redistributing talent power or introducing other ways to benefit from stealth, it is difficult on Subtlety.
For Subtlety, Subterfuge only slightly increases combo point generation. Echoing Repirment with Resounding Clarity competes on this metric. Two points of Subterfuge and the additional Vanish charge only produce half of the combo points the mentioned alternative generates.
The only remaining reason to talent into the right side is Invigorating Shadowdust, but Shadowdust is highly dependent on the generated cdr. 15/30 seconds seem to keep this part of the tree relevant.

One of the big topics for Subtlety was Invigorating Shadowdust, this section will cover this Talent option and gameplay problems.

Cooldowns, Complexity and Shadow Dust:
There was a LOT of hate towards this talent option, but very little explanation why.
To add some context, the current cooldown layout offers too many moving parts that don’t fit together quite well.

There is initially the problem of Subtelty having two major cooldowns, Flagellation and Shadow Blades. But both of them have different lengths, there is a 30-second gap between them.
While this gap can be exploited for additional casts of the lower cooldown, it adds additional mental load.
Long-term planning becomes even more difficult, because vanish has only a 2-minute cooldown, while reducing 2-minute cooldowns to 1.5 minutes.
Both lead to a situation where gameplay becomes very time-sensitive. Short fight times will want you to often just send cooldowns,
fight times around 3 minutes 30 and higher will want you to desync cooldowns for extra cooldown use
and fights longer than 5 minutes will end up in a state of being starved of vanish charges.
All of this offers a great option to plan around encounter timings but becomes a headache to dynamically adjust like in a mythic+ setting.

This on top of the already big amount of cooldown with different timings is insane.
There are 25 seconds, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, 1-minute, 1 minute 30, and 2-minute cooldowns.
To further complicate it, two of the main cooldowns have cdr assigned to them and don’t fit perfectly in one of the brackets.

If this is a problem space the dev team agrees on, solving this is not a trivial task.
I won’t recommend a solution, just list a few ideas.

  1. Adjust (major) cooldown timings to have better natural timings.
  2. Combine cooldowns or turn them into passives.
  3. Remove cooldowns.

Reducing the mental load might be a good thing, because there is no spell in the spellbook which is easy to understand.
The proposed solution to lower the cooldown reduction from 15/30 to 10/20 is not ideal.
Changes to the CDR make alignment even less intuitive, and the talent option was already nerfed by moving the extra charge to the general Rogue tree.


The Tragedy of the Talent Tree:
The talent tree is in dire need of attention, many nodes are relics of previous expansions or iterations.
Some talents did not age well with iterations and some feel redundant due to the amount of similar nodes.
To keep the scope of this section sane, I will only highlight some nodes.

Subtlety Tree:

  • Shadow Focus - The talent nerf is less of a concern, the position in the tree is. Having an additional damage restricts early pathing.
  • Silent Storm/Swift Death - Silent Storm is too insignificant to work and Swift Death requires Shadowdust to be relevant.
  • Shuriken Tornado - In dire need of an update. The current version has tight timings and lacks visual feedback.
  • Gloomblade / Lingering Shadows / Perforate Veins / The Rotten - All focus on Builder damage or damage outside of cooldowns.
  • Sepsis - Is difficult to play around, adds more cooldowns, and does not fit into the Subltety fantasy. It is unclear why this remained on Subtlety.

General Tree:

  • Echoing Reprimand - The combo point generation on Subtlety is obfuscated, making it frustrating to hit empowered combo points.
  • Cold Blood - This talent is perfect for Subtlety but does not work well on Assassination and Outlaw.
  • Without a Trace - Problems of this are described in my writing about stealth.

Base Gameplay:
A condensed list of pain points during Raid testing and while hitting the target dummy.
Things that bothered me:

  • Shadow Dance cdr - The amount of cdr from Shadow Dance currently is very tight, it is just enough to align Shadow Dance to symbols of death.
  • CttC - This is a very nice change, it would still be preferred if Slice and Dice became entirely passive.
  • Shuriken Storm - Cleave still feels energy-starved, the energy cost might be slightly too high.
  • Replicating Shadows - Sometimes does not hit the target close to the player, a slightly higher range would make the use more intuitive.

Final Words:
First of all, thank you for reading for everyone who made it to this point.
I fully expect most of my feedback to be outside of the scope for (early) tww, but still wanted to highlight pain points.
Rogue is currently the least played class in the game in raiding and mythic+ and this after receving gameplay updates.
The alpha/beta so far was also very sparse on communication, something i hope improves in the near future.


Hi, Rogue Main since TBC here.

I play all 3 rogue speccs depending on performance/design/content.

After playing the beta, im honestly really concerned about rogue in general - especially after playing around different classes/hero talents.

We literally dont have hero talents - none - they are non existent. All we get are a bunch of passives and more buffs to track with our (for the most part) already busy/tight rotation or damage windows.

We dont get any new button or any new animation whatsoever except the silly coin toss from fatebound. Its like every class gets to enjoy the new expansion with new exciting stuff - and we get to play “the war without (hero talents)”

I also dont understand why we are gutting one of the most beloved specc for m+ players (outlaw).

  • We lose the best designed and best QoL tier set bonus.
  • We decide to nerf the best version of outlaw rogue thats ever existed (Season 3 Crackshot goodness).
  • We lose Shadowdance.
  • We nerf Ace procc.
  • We nerf Dispatch dmg on Crackshot.
  • We lose Long Arms.
  • We nerf Adrenaline Rush (we are now forced to get A LOT ofHaste, our worst stat for somewhat of CDR reduction)

and still… even prioritizing Haste - the specc is so slow, im waiting for my energy bar to fill - as outlaw, what?

And why are we doing this? In the top 2000 keys, there were 6 keys with an outlaw rogue in the group - we dont even get to play the game in our current pre-nerfed form.

I feel like someone at blizzard got the memo that Outlaw is problematic bc of people running around with 45% Vers.
Or that some players (the loud minority as usual) feels like the specc is to fast for them - well thats the whole point of playing outlaw. We have a slow methodic specc in Assa and a medium paced specc in Sub - it was perfect.

As for Assassination :

  • Still too reliant on having one big target to dump our Deathmark into.
  • Lackluster compensation for Kingsbane nerf.
  • Talent tree still very problematic - i need to invest too much points into either AoE or Singletarget.
    -Surprisingly weak on 3 target cleave, what is this specc supposed to be good at? Its def not AoE, its not Cleave and god forbid its Single Target because thats getting us nerfed into the ground.

On a good note : Spiteful is gone now, thank god! There was no point in even touching this specc on a spiteful week.

As for Sub :

Probably the specc that lost the least and somewhat has hero talents that compliments what Sub is about although funnel still seems very weak.

I dont know i really wished we had a button - an actual hero talent, especially with the Deathstalker design potential.
Or some Visuals… i dont get why something like Sunfury can exist in the same game, and some classes/speccs get abolutely nothing.

Just think about how crazy Deathstalker could be, some shadow animations - shadow clones, bring back Death from Above, just something.

Small Blizzard Appreciation Note :

  • Whoever designed Season 3 Crackshot Outlaw, i love you man - you are a genius. Thank you very much for the most fun i’ve had in years playing this game!
    I loved the pace, the dopamine of Ace proccs in my Crackshot windows, the constant CDR reduction and high numbers of rolls, no waiting for energy and empty globals - it was perfect!

I have been playing Outlaw Rogue throughout Dragonflight and want to give some feedback regarding the changes going into The War Within. I will be focusing only on outlaw as I have much more knowledge and experience with this spec over Assassination and Subtlety. I played HO builds in season 1 and 2 and mainly KIR/ER/non-HO builds in season 3 and 4. My thoughts are formed around the KIR builds as that is what I have spent the most time with recently, but most of it is relevant for both builds, as the Crackshot loop is the same for both. I will also primarily focus on the general feel of the spec with the changes that are on beta right now, not really including the hero trees much aside from the talents that come with them - most notably Killing Spree.

Killing Spree:
Killing Spree is an iconic and flashy ability, but fitting it into the flow of the outlaw rotation is a bit awkward. The rest of the rotation has been centered around maximizing a constant cooldown reduction with the goal of getting Adrenaline Rush back off CD, or as close to it as we can, before the current buff expires. Spending anything more than a global on an ability that doesn’t help us achieving this feels very bad.

The more pressing problem with Killing Spree is the whole package of the animation, the crazy camera angle changes in a short time window, the locking-your-character-in-place, the uncontrollable teleporting around the area into swirlies, beams, frontals and other things you want to dodge and the way you end up in the same spot you started, regardless of how the pack of mobs may have moved while you were spazzing out in KS, leading to downtime as you now have to catch up to the movement of the pack. If you have a debuff, a soak circle or any kind of effect that you need to keep a distance from other players with, Killing Spree is now unusable due to the random movement, as you have no control over who you will hit with it. The idea of jumping around and slashing everything in the back is, in my opinion, cool in theory, and I’m sure it looks sick from the outside, but pressing the button just feels abhorrent in its current state. If this ends up as a button we are forced to press (with Trickster if nothing else), I think it has to at least feel okay.

There are several ways this could be addressed. For starters, having a stationary camera angle that doesn’t follow the character around would help greatly on not getting seasick. Being able to move the “anchor point” while the teleporting is happening also makes sense from a gameplay perspective. One way to do that would be to send some sort of “clone” around doing the Killing Spree while the actual player is still in the same spot, maybe invisible so it still looks like teleporting. This would also mean that our hitbox/hurtbox wouldn’t teleport around either, but rather stay in place so we don’t lose control over what we step into / move into other players with.

Acrobatic Strikes and melee range:
Removing the 3 yard range extension is a BIG deal for Outlaw. As a spec that values dps uptime over anything else, removing (or reworking) Acro hurts a lot more than for specs that play around big cooldowns or DoTs. For some raid bosses (for example Volcoross), this doesn’t really matter, as the hitbox is huge and staying in range is never an issue. For other bosses, typically humanoids and/or other smaller character models (like Nymue), you are forced into downtime due to mechanics in ways that really hurt.

Raiding is one thing though, but Mythic+ is where the real problems are. Staying in range of our priority target in a pack is turning into a serious annoyance as soon as there is anything on the ground we have to dodge or any kind of mechanic we have to move for. As a result we end up swapping targets a lot to keep uptime going, which is both very bad for our inherent prio damage, but also a very unfun way to play. One of the strenghts of Outlaw as a spec in M+ is our ability to pump prio damage and cleave without compromise. Nerfing our range makes this really hard to do now.

The short explanation given as reasoning for removing the extended melee range was very vague and confusing to me, but just the fact that all melee are being treated equally in this regard is concerning. Different melee specs play differently - some don’t care much about losing acro at all, while others, like outlaw, take acro in every build as a necessity. With the way Blade Flurry works, cleaving off of a main target in a circle around us, combined with the need for constant uptime, being restricted to 5 yards is anything but good design.

It is hard to overstate the importance of this talent, but removing it is taking outlaw from a place of being able to pump out constant damage to struggling with doing anything at all at times.

Output variance:
The variance in damage output we are seeing on beta currently is really high. Losing our 2-set and 4-set bonuses from Season 3 and 4 is a big reason for this as we on average have fewer Roll the Bones buffs going at any given time, while also getting fewer Opportunity and Ace Up Your Sleeve procs. The difference between playing with or without Broadside and/or True Bearing is massive. Fewer RtB buffs means that the windows with good damage and CDR are more sporadic - all very randomly and out of our control. The removal of the Weapon Master talent while reimplementing it into the S3 tier-set felt cheap when it happened, and even worse now that we’re losing both. I am sure the variance is something that will be addressed without having to go too deep into it here, so I would rather focus on other points, but it should definitely be mentioned. The best way to lower the variance and also make the spec flow better lies in buffing proc rates. The Fatebound hero tree is bringing some of it back, but not enough to even this out. Nerfing the Opportunity proc rate from Ambush compared to Sinister Strike was also a weird choice to me. If Ambush is too powerful, nerf the damage numbers, not the proc rates.

Adrenaline Rush and energy generation:
This point builds on the previous point about output variance. With the nerfs we have gotten from losing the tier set bonuses with RtB buffs, Opportunity and Ace procs, our Adrenaline Rush uptime has naturally lowered as well. Season 3 and 4 has had extremely high uptime on Adrenaline Rush, mainly as a result of the introduction of Underhanded Upper Hand. Playing “perfect” or close to it would reward us with lots of cooldown reduction and more or less permanent Adrenaline Rush. While this has been fun for a while and made it feel like we were rewarded for playing well, this type of uptime is clearly not healthy for Outlaw in the long run. This also makes any and all downtime from the buff feel like garbage. Dying right after pressing AR means that you are doing nothing for a good minute before you get AR back. Also any kind of mechanics in dungeons like flying on dragons between platforms in Dawn of The Infinite and the water elevator in Throne of the Tides meant losing AR as well. Playing around buff uptime is a cool concept, but it can’t go to the lengths where the whole playstyle becomes toxic as a result.

Lowering the uptime of Adrenaline Rush makes a lot of sense and is definitely the right direction to move in, but this means we will spend a lot of time outside of AR - which also has to feel good! Current Outlaw already doesn’t really function without AR due to energy starvation and beta makes this even worse with the nerfed proc rates. In combination with less range than before leading to lost globals here and there, overall worse flow in crackshot windows due to fewer procs and less CDR from each proc, we are looking at an overall worse gameplay loop both in and especially outside of AR.

With TWW we also have the change in how Adrenaline Rush works - or rather the components needed to get the full effect from it. As a spec that barely cares about secondaries at all, it is good to move some power into something other than versatility. That being said, putting an arbitrary “cap” of 25% haste to get back the effect we already had from Adrenaline Rush feels cheap and stupid, and remarkably a lot like the Weapon Master / 2-set shenanigans we had with the S2 → S3 transition. All this does is force us to allocate some points into haste, reach the magical number needed for 0.8 second globals again (or enough to get 8 globals within the 6 second crackshot windows) and then once again ignore anything but vers. It doesn’t sit right with me to have power seemingly moved into haste, but still being unable to even feel a difference when you get Blood Lust.

Closing thoughts:
These were a lot of words. All in all, Outlaw is a spec that feels fantastic to play when it flows well. It has a lot of skill expression and room for minmaxing that makes it fun to keep playing. Although this post had an almost exclusively negative view on things, I hope it is taken as constructive feedback to hopefully help preserve what we have. I really want to be able to keep playing Outlaw in The War Within.


Deathstalker Hero Tree Feedback

So many questions - So few answers :pensive:

  1. Why is over application of marks a real problem? Does subtlety just have to not press shadowstrike in shadow dance anymore? Why does more usage of the mark application mean less capstone benefit?

  2. Why does application of marks go against AoE priorities? Sin wants to prio Garotte and Rupture during subterfuge, not Ambush while Sub would rather use Shuriken storm. Why are we introducing at least one if not more globals that contradict what we want to do?

  3. Why can we not freely reapply the mark if we don’t have vanish? What does assassination do if we have a Fyrakk style situation with a target that leaves and summons two high priority enemies which are then followed by many low hp targets? What do we do if we are facing targets that we can not trigger darkest night on before they die? Do we just not have a capstone / core hero talent for these?

  4. Why is Clear the witness so lame? Oh WOW one combo point extra on abilities that will cap you and a small amount of damage. /s

  5. Hunt them down is incredibly boring and in conflict with Singular focus that rewards hitting your non marked target with abilities for 103% damage compared to your marked target for 100%

  6. Flensing knives is incredibly boring, it has no interactions, just extra damage on an ability that is of no consequence for either spec except combo point generation. Mutilate and backstab are boring abilities to attach damage to.

  7. Lingering Darkness - this choice node does not feel good. Why are we providing damage right after our cooldowns expire? At Least in season two shadowlands with the tier set you could fit shivs during the buff following deathmark, this current version in the context of Kingsbane is essentially not something you can play around, since we will always hold shiv for kingsbane and even if we don’t take kingsbane we would rather stack shiv with double poison application from deathmark + double bleeds if taking arterial precision than lining them with the lingering darkness buff. No one thought I really love the s2 assassination tier set - so why are we bringing it back?

  8. Symbolic Victory - 10% extra finisher damage on a single eviscerate / black powder / envenom after a moderate cd ability is pressed (shiv / symbols of death) This is the kind of effect we would want but the effect is simply too small to be noticeable or interesting. It’s not like we are going to press anything other than a finisher every 2-4 globals anyway, at least this talent is only underwhelming in regards to tuning, not design.

  9. Corrupt the blood is a fine talent design wise, I have no problem with it, it creates an incentive of not letting rupture drop with the payoff of having higher damage with the assistance of longer rupture baseline. Why does this not get reapplied / extended when we refresh rupture in pandemic? why does this talent change pandemic interaction for rupture?There is a number of bugs for this spell specifically for sub rogue regarding replicating shadows but I am assuming these issues will be resolved. Good talent

  10. Ethereal Cloak / Bait and switch - fine node, both options have compelling use cases and as a standalone defensive evasion magic damage reduction for 10 seconds is impactful. This has nice synergy with Elusiveness also buffing evasion. Ethereal Cloak is simple yet niche. No major complaints about this node.

  11. Momentum of Despair / Follow the Blood - Why does Momentum of Despair not include crimson tempest? Follow the Blood seems overwhelmingly dominant to my eyes, especially as we gain more stats as it’s a non diminishing benefit compared to crit chance.

  12. Shadewalker / Shroud of Night - Shadewalker is just more shadowsteps, not something we need but fair enough, I can’t really criticise this too much. Shroud of Night is a simple bonus but situationally very useful, especially for subtlety who have extra movement speed given by shroud. Fine choice node if a little more beneficial to sub, no real complaints, especially since it actually interacts with the deathstalker marks in a meaningful way, unlike hunt them down which is just a binary check if you have marks or not, this talent somewhat rewards you for applying and consuming marks effectively.

  13. Darkest Night - The most impactful, notable part of the tree. The energy return feels nice and assists in reapplication of marks. This is moreso a problem with application of marks initially that if you press too many ambushes or shadowstrikes your capability of benefitting from this capstone is diminished.

Following the multitude of things I hated discussed above
here are the things I liked from this tree.

  • The empowered finisher from Darkest Night
  • The energy return from Darkest Night
  • Funnel damage from Singular Focus

The most important question I have to ask is:
Why Is the benefit of this tree locked behind stealth application and entirely possible to “fail”.

Other Hero talent trees possess nowhere near this propensity for failure.

It is possible to have a target with marks die and then we can be left unable to reapply the marks until we have access to stealth again? How is it fun gameplay to stress about if the monk in your group is going to touch of death the target you have marks on, or if you just consumed all your marks but now you’re scared to reapply them for fear of not being able to reapply marks due to the target dying with marks on and the tank chain pulling.


Wouldn’t be able to put things as they trully are in a better way :brown_heart: :heart:

Hello,i have mainly tested assassination and Subtetly but a bit of outlaw as well.Outside the general feeling of the rogue being weak in terms of damage,i would like to point out mostly the functionality deathstalker is lacking but also my concern for the bugs torturing all the hero trees the rogue has.From trickster’s coup de grace serving mostly as a riddle to solve rather than being realitically functional,to deathstalker and being a really awkward tree.It still makes me wonder why would the marks should ever fall for any reason at all.In all,i dont think that its only about buffing the node damage,it needs to be functional and make sense,which,speaking my own opinion,it doesn’t.Last on the line is fatebound which feels like it has a flow and reason behind it,singular focus looks great but the damage feels like it’s not there.

I’m still worried about getting new people into the class through having a pleasant feeling leveling.

As it stands now, leveling a rogue on Beta still feels bad and for sure something that discourages our already very unpopular class. There’s quite glaring issues that other classes don’t have.

The main issues are:

There’s very little to do. You have very low energy generation for a very long time. You spend a lot of time not being able to press any buttons.
Using anything other than basically the 1 builder and 1 finisher for the majority of levels is useless.

There’s very little sustain. You have powerful cd’s, both offensive and defensive. However these are “overkill” during leveling. And during leveling the cd’s are long so most of the time you won’t be having them. You have bad sustain and probably the only class that actually needs to eat to recover. Especially now that leech gets further nerfed (good for endgame), there’s only Crimson Vial on a very long cd with a very small effect. Couple this with Rogues actually being quite weak in melee as well, there’s a lot of forced down time that other classes don’t have.

There’s no good way to gather several mobs in order to use your cd’s efficiently. You can’t gather mobs in stealth, you can’t gather mobs quickly just as you leave stealth. If you instead plan to go quickly from mob to mob in stealth, then the stealth cd is too long, hookshot is broken in open world and fizzles soo often, sprint isn’t up. It’s just a bad class to do big pulls on and a bad class to go from mob to mob. Using Vanish (Which 2 of 3 specs are getting instead of Shadow Dance) offensively also causes issues in open world by resetting enemies you’re fighting (if not used in an unexplained extremely precise manner that no new player would), even though out specs are balanced around wanting to vanish for power.

The last few years, being personally very active in the Rogue community, I haven’t met anyone who enjoys the Rogue leveling experience. But I have talked to a lot who has given up on it due to how terrible it is.

I gave this feedback in person during DF beta. Somehow the leveling experience has become even worse. The one redeeming factor in this area is that Sprint has a lower cd now.

This just makes me very, very sad.

I levelled a rogue recently on Remix - its so painful. I know levelling isn’t a focus but its indicative of other problems. Was waiting like 5 seconds just to press sinister strike as outlaw, and sub is even worse. We have so many energy talents that you can’t start reaching 'til you’re level 30 or so.

I’ve heard several players talk about how the only character they don’t have at max is a rogue and I think they’re probably turned off by it before they can even get to appreciate it.

1 Like

Excellent work on the Deathstalker changes posted with the most recent set of beta changes. You have addressed the biggest problems with Deathstalker.

One small request would be if there could be a way beyond holding a 2 minute cooldown for applying the mark in cases where a target leaves the fight but doesn’t die. Situations like Fyrakk p2.

Today my main feedback is regarding Slice and Dice. I don’t hate this ability but it’s hard to love it either it’s essentially a mandatory setup that doesn’t feel good or fun while active while also feeling bad if it ever drops for any reason since we are assumed to always have it active.

If death chakram can get removed because it’s a “setup” spell that is needed before dealing damage then surely Slice and Dice fits that position more as it actually does no upfront damage like Chakram did (It did quite a lot of damage while also generating a good amount of focus).

If there’s to be no thought behind maintaining slice and dice and it’s a once per fight kinda thing why not just remove it outright instead of taxing rogues a finisher every pull / wipe or any time we are out of combat for a minute?

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Haven’t played too much rogue on beta because the lag annoys me, but here’s some general feedback. I’m sure a lot of these asks are crazy but better to go overboard than under…board?

The energy economy in general needs some smoothing out. When you are levelling you are just standing waiting for ages to press buttons. When you’re playing outlaw you can be pressing buttons every global for 40 seconds, and then suddenly waiting seconds between actions which is super jarring. As sub you can press shadow dance and not have enough energy to press your globals during it. Its fine for energy to exist but I think dry patches need to be smoothed out, e.g. reduce base cost of sinister strike by 50% each time it doesn’t proc opportunity.

This is a more general one but something maybe that needs addressing. Outlaw for example should be doing insane damage on 8 targets compared to other specs, especially uncapped specs. In S1 this was happening but it got nerfed very early on, but it didn’t get buffed when everybody started doing massive pulls later. Yes this will probably make outlaw OP in m+ at the start of the expansion but so be it - this is only fair when specs are capped - they will be doing much less once people start pulling packs of 15+. This is something Ion/Morgan mentioned in a recent interview so I’m hoping its actualised.

Externals are a seperate issue but all I’ll say is it doesn’t feel great when you’re doing less dps than another spec when you require windfury and they don’t (even when you have windfury!).

I think our utility in m+ especially needs to be looked at. Now I know many specs are even worse off. But take a ret paladin for an example: they have dispells, offheals, one of the tankiest specs in the game, combat res, freedom, sac, bop, immunities, aoe cc, st stun, two raid buffs, etc., etc., while also dishing out incredible damage. Rogue used to have shroud, but its now almost useless, what with invis pots, mage getting mass invis (lol), and mind soothe. We can’t use cheap shot because our stealth windows are all so important now. Kidney shot is next to useless outside of pvp due to the amount of spam casting mobs that need controlling. At least we can maybe take a second vanish charge now so we can use that for non-offense again. Getting aoe blind was great in the rework but I think we need some more toys now that everyone else got more (and stole some of ours). The shroud movement speed increase should be baseline for example. Defensive wise, I also don’t think we should have to drop Cheat Death - one of our more iconic abilities - just so we can have an actual defensive button to press that works against non-aoe damage.

Damage Profiles:
I’d like a bit more variance in what each spec can be good at. Some classes have a single dps spec that can specialise more that we can. For example, no rogue spec is very strong on 2-3 targets. Would be nice if the profiles could be spread around a bit, it always seems that when one rogue spec is slightly stronger than the others, its stronger for almost every situation.

Uptime / Acrobatic Strikes Removal This is another huge pain point of mine. The current feedback loop where less uptime = less CDR = less ADR = less Stealth = less ADR = less CDR just feels really bad when a tonne of encounters have unavoidable uptime (bosses jumping away etc etc). Losing Acro is gonna make this happen more often but I haven’t seen anything to compensate in the gameplay.

Adrenaline Rush - Don’t know what to do with this, it just feels normal to play with it up, and then when its not up it just feels bad. It’s not a ‘proper’ cooldown but we still need it. Feels bad if you die and you’re waiting ages before you can get it back again. Maybe it needs two charges, or maybe allow its duration to be extended past its base duration somehow. Or maybe just go back to when it wasn’t always up and its more of a cooldown again.

Underhanded Upper Hand - Hot take maybe, but I think this talent is causing more problems than in solves. Causes a negative feedback loop if your stealth uptime is low (happens with poor uptime/rng or less skilled players) and can take ages to recover from it. I think this could be changed to a pure QoL talent, where ARD, RTB buffs, etc. don’t lose duration when out of combat or out of range of a target.

Keep it Rolling - too much variance, particularly punishing if you die

Crackshot - This has been my favourite part of the rogue rework and I’m sad that it’s getting nerfed. I don’t mind the associated dispatch nerf but the ace nerf really hurts it. One cook I had was if Crackshot and Ace were combined (with upgraded ace proc chance), and an ace proc also resets the cd of bte, no stealth required.

Precise Cuts - Another cook i had was to add a choice node here, something like ‘Blade Splinters’, which causes every target hit by blade flurry to also proc a hit to 5/8 nearby enemies, kinda like a reverse precise cuts. Also buff Precise Cuts value.

Killing Spree - I like the ability but needs to get the ole Sylvannas Windrunner hitbox-stays-the-same-but-animation-moves treatment, without the camera jumping about also.

Grappling Hook - this has been bugged for so long at this stage, can we get it the ‘no path available’ treatment instead of it just not working?

Coup de Grace - don’t know if the lock is intended, but it feels terrible to be frozen like that as a rogue in particular, feels like its bugged or something almost. Needs to do way more damage if it’s staying this way.

Haste scaling
I don’t know why they keep doing it, but so many encounters and affixes have haste buffs (like the new m+ affix, 4th boss doti, sarkareth) so I think its important to have something in your kit to take advantage of these. I admire the attempt to improve haste scaling for outlaw but it seems like a band-aid fix. Either you still won’t care much about haste or once you reach the 25% cap then it’ll go down to being useless again.

Slice and Dice
Please just remove it, give it the Death Chakram treatment. Having to hotkey an ability that you might press literally one time per raid boss or key just for the sake of it feels silly.